Do you think Ryder should've died loyal?

[LloydGTA3 26]

I know there has been a few topics about this already, but I feel that if they were gonna kill off Ryder, he should've died a loyal member of the gang. Sure he wasn't all that nice to CJ, but let's face it. CJ kinda needed all the criticism that Ryder gave him, because he kept on complaining and whining about small subjects. I mean if you ask me, the person who criticizes you is the one who's the most loyal to you. I really don't see how CJ's friendship with Ryder is any different from, say, Sonic and Knuckles in the StH series. The two still shared a few laughs here and there, and they seemed to have more of a love-hate relationship, which I felt was more interesting.

 

Back on topic. I feel that instead of turning Ryder into a traitor, R* should've killed him off as a loyal member of GSF since he was far more down with Grove than Smoke was. I'd say his death should've happened somewhere in the Green Sabre mission, after CJ warns an injured Sweet about Smoke's betrayal, Ryder and CJ attack the Ballas, and at the final act, Ryder starts acting cocky and is later ambushed and riddled with a bunch of bullets, kind of similar to a fashion of Sonny Corleone's death. That way, it would actually make Ryder's death much more profound and not seem like a last-second throwaway. What do you guys think?

[Matty 630]

I say no and I say that on the basis that it wouldn’t have made sense from a story standpoint for Ryder to not betray the GSF; and in my opinion that particular plot twist was necessary in order to advance the game beyond Los Santos in a believable way.
 

Ryder’s destiny was set even before the game begins. In The Introduction (to San Andreas) short film, Ryder and Big Smoke are shown to be colluding against Sweet - so he’s showing his true colours even then. Not to mention Ryder likely being at least partially responsible for the death of Carl’s mother (while gunning for Sweet). Jump forward and during the early part of the storyline, Ryder not only constantly badgers Carl but also makes subtle digs at the GSF, well, subtle enough for both Carl and Sweet to overlook - this is evident in the mission Reuniting The Families.
 

Hence Ryder’s criticism of Carl wasn’t a ‘I love you but you need pull your weight around here’ type of thing - it was literally bagging him out. By way of contrast, Sweet was also critical of Carl very early in the game but that relationship became more complimentary as time went on. Ryder never let up against Carl. 

[Guest Billy Russo]

My personal opinion is he shouldn't have died at all. I feel like you could look at Ryder's build-up to The Green Sabre from two perspectives and it would have worked. The direction Rockstar took was believable because Ryder was a dick and like @Matty said was trying to get rid of Carl, who was a problem.

 

Although, I feel they could have took in another direction, and all the stuff before with Ryder was a 'red herring' whilst Smoke was the real snake in the grass. I feel like Smoke was way more sketchy, and it's disguised behind the comedic moments. The way he acts during the drive-by and the fact he's moved out on his own away from the Grove, but he always acts like he cares about family. I feel as though Smoke keeps Carl close and in his control, where as Ryder was more reckless to me. Smoke was always the better antagonist, and I feel they could have kept Ryder as loyal. Smoke also had the way better send-off and ending, where as you forget about Ryder pretty quickly.

[Official General 9,992]

NO

 

I was fine with the way Ryder's ending in the story. The main theme of the story was the protagonist, CJ, being betrayed by his closest friends, Sweet and Ryder. This was the driving force for why CJ had to do the things he did in order to survive and gain revenge against the forces that worked against him. 

 

On top of that, Ryder was clearly shown to be a very dim-witted guy, so it was very fitting that he was not expected to last very long anyway. 

[watersgta3 344]

I agree. If they were gonna kill off Ryder, at least kill him off as a staunch member of the GSF. Because him becoming a traitor made no sense at all. While I would like to keep him alive, I'd rather him get killed as CJ's friend rather than have him turn traitor.

[MrBreak16 65]

1 minute ago, watersgta3 said:

I agree. If they were gonna kill off Ryder, at least kill him off as a staunch member of the GSF. Because him becoming a traitor made no sense at all. While I would like to keep him alive, I'd rather him get killed as CJ's friend rather than have him turn traitor.

I agree too, when the game told me to purchase him and kill him, i was like : (But... I don’t want to do that...)

[LloydGTA3 26]

On 11/10/2019 at 9:09 PM, Matty said:

I say no and I say that on the basis that it wouldn’t have made sense from a story standpoint for Ryder to not betray the GSF; and in my opinion that particular plot twist was necessary in order to advance the game beyond Los Santos in a believable way.
 

Ryder’s destiny was set even before the game begins. In The Introduction (to San Andreas) short film, Ryder and Big Smoke are shown to be colluding against Sweet - so he’s showing his true colours even then. Not to mention Ryder likely being at least partially responsible for the death of Carl’s mother (while gunning for Sweet). Jump forward and during the early part of the storyline, Ryder not only constantly badgers Carl but also makes subtle digs at the GSF, well, subtle enough for both Carl and Sweet to overlook - this is evident in the mission Reuniting The Families.
 

Hence Ryder’s criticism of Carl wasn’t a ‘I love you but you need pull your weight around here’ type of thing - it was literally bagging him out. By way of contrast, Sweet was also critical of Carl very early in the game but that relationship became more complimentary as time went on. Ryder never let up against Carl. 

Except the Introduction came AFTER the game was complete, so it hardly counts for the writing of the story beforehand. Plus the Intro also showed that Ryder only agreed with Smoke because he was talked into it. Also, what "subtle digs" are you even talking about? This whole time, he always bragged about repping Grove and trashing the Ballas. Ryder's betrayal was totally an afterthought considering CJ says absolutely nothing about him when he tells Sweet about Smoke's betrayal, and it would make much more sense for him to just get killed off as a GSF member if there wasn't any further use for him in the game, most likely in the Green Sabre mission.

[muvdafucupouttahere 64]

I for one think if they didn't know what to do with Ryder in the first place, they should've killed him off as a GSF member. It didn't make since for him to turn traitor since he really had no motivation to do what he did and displayed no hints on betraying the gang, unlike Big Smoke. And to all the idiot SA fanboys that keep on bring up the Introduction (which really isn't a prequel of the story), that was released AFTER the game came out. So they obvious added in last second details on everything that happened prior to the story. That's hardly a good source of foreshadowing, and had Ryder been killed as CJ's friend to the end, they would've changed a few things in the Introduction. So yeah. I agree that if Ryder was ever gonna get killed off, have him die as a friend, not as a traitor. I'd say what's the point of even having Ryder as a character if you weren't gonna write him well at all.

Edited November 13 by muvdafucupouttahere

[Official General 9,992]

2 hours ago, muvdafucupouttahere said:

I for one think if they didn't know what to do with Ryder in the first place, they should've killed him off as a GSF member. It didn't make since for him to turn traitor since he really had no motivation to do what he did and displayed no hints on betraying the gang, unlike Big Smoke. And to all the idiot SA fanboys that keep on bring up the Introduction (which really isn't a prequel of the story), that was released AFTER the game came out. So they obvious added in last second details on everything that happened prior to the story. That's hardly a good source of foreshadowing, and had Ryder been killed as CJ's friend to the end, they would've changed a few things in the Introduction. So yeah. I agree that if Ryder was ever gonna get killed off, have him die as a friend, not as a traitor. I'd say what's the point of even having Ryder as a character if you weren't gonna write him well at all.

You're forgetting that Cesar was written to fill that void as CJ's 'loyal friend'. The whole idea behind Cesar was "enemy becomes my best friend" scenario. This is because African-Americans and Mexicans did not get along because of gang violence,Ryder and that Kendl was dating a Mexican-American, Cesar was supposed to be initially viewed as an enemy, but he ended up becoming CJ's right-hand man and loyal friend. Ryder's role was to be that of a treacherous old, close friend that betrayed CJ, and his script was fitting.

 

I know people like Ryder, but it should not be hard to see why he was written the way he was. 

[muvdafucupouttahere 64]

2 hours ago, Official General said:

You're forgetting that Cesar was written to fill that void as CJ's 'loyal friend'. The whole idea behind Cesar was "enemy becomes my best friend" scenario. This is because African-Americans and Mexicans did not get along because of gang violence,Ryder and that Kendl was dating a Mexican-American, Cesar was supposed to be initially viewed as an enemy, but he ended up becoming CJ's right-hand man and loyal friend. Ryder's role was to be that of a treacherous old, close friend that betrayed CJ, and his script was fitting.

 

I know people like Ryder, but it should not be hard to see why he was written the way he was. 

That's exactly why I said that if you were gonna have him get killed off, have him killed as a childhood friend CJ lost and Cesar can replace the role as CJ's "loyal friend". That, to me, sounds much more well-written: one childhood friend sells you out, the other childhood friend gets killed due to the ambush, and CJ makes a brand new friend.

[Official General 9,992]

1 hour ago, muvdafucupouttahere said:

That's exactly why I said that if you were gonna have him get killed off, have him killed as a childhood friend CJ lost and Cesar can replace the role as CJ's "loyal friend". That, to me, sounds much more well-written: one childhood friend sells you out, the other childhood friend gets killed due to the ambush, and CJ makes a brand new friend.

Nah disagree. Ryder was fine as he is. There was a reason for the animosity shown toward CJ by Ryder at the beginning of the story, and that set it nicely for his treachery against CJ to come into play. I was fine with it. 

[DK06282000 29]

2 hours ago, Official General said:

Nah disagree. Ryder was fine as he is. There was a reason for the animosity shown toward CJ by Ryder at the beginning of the story, and that set it nicely for his treachery against CJ to come into play. I was fine with it. 

Honestly, Ryder should not have even been a character in the game at all. He has absolutely no role at all and is an overall ass to everyone. He has no point in the story and therefore should not have been made a character at all. He ruined the first have of the storyline. Honestly, the story would've been so much better if it was just CJ, Sweet, and Smoke. They actually had a point in the story (although it was depressing for Smoke to turn traitor).

 

 

Ryder should not have even been in the game at all. He has an annoying attitude and does nothing but shout and says annoying things. They should've never even included him in the game at all. He ruined the first half of the story for all of us!

Edited November 14 by DK06282000

[Guest Billy Russo]

55 minutes ago, DK06282000 said:

Honestly, Ryder should not have even been a character in the game at all. He has absolutely no role at all and is an overall ass to everyone. He has no point in the story and therefore should not have been made a character at all. He ruined the first have of the storyline. Honestly, the story would've been so much better if it was just CJ, Sweet, and Smoke. They actually had a point in the story (although it was depressing for Smoke to turn traitor).

 

 

Ryder should not have even been in the game at all. He has an annoying attitude and does nothing but shout and says annoying things. They should've never even included him in the game at all. He ruined the first half of the story for all of us!

I wouldn't go that far. Ryder deserved to be in the game. Sure he was a bit annoying at times with his constant complaining about CJ's driving, but he has his moments. I like this scene in particular, always makes me laugh:

 

 

[Official General 9,992]

9 hours ago, DK06282000 said:

Honestly, Ryder should not have even been a character in the game at all. He has absolutely no role at all and is an overall ass to everyone. He has no point in the story and therefore should not have been made a character at all. He ruined the first have of the storyline. Honestly, the story would've been so much better if it was just CJ, Sweet, and Smoke. They actually had a point in the story (although it was depressing for Smoke to turn traitor).

 

 

Ryder should not have even been in the game at all. He has an annoying attitude and does nothing but shout and says annoying things. They should've never even included him in the game at all. He ruined the first half of the story for all of us!

Us ?

 

Speak for yourself mister. Ryder was a great addition to the game and one of the game’s iconic characters.

[Rhoda 6,118]

I stand by the belief that Ryder's demise was rushed for whatever reason, but I'm not entirely convinced that his betrayal wasn't set up from the start. There's evidence to suggest that he was originally written to stay loyal. During the story, CJ never actually refers to Ryder being a snake except in the mission "Photo Opportunity". Even during that, you can see that the mission was hastily cobbled together. Not a lot of the gameplay makes sense, and if you do some digging you'll find out that the mission was originally intended to feature a helicopter. This is why CJ and Cesar are shouting to a point where you could be certain their targets would hear them. Of course The Introduction serves as a major indication that Ryder was set up to betray us from the beginning, but part of me does wonder if it was always meant to be that way. During Ryder's demise in "Pier 69", it's clear that his voices lines have been recycled and the events leading up to the death feel rushed.

 

Whether or not it was always intended, it's interesting to think about. A lot of the bitterness and snark that Ryder flings CJ's way could be seen as antagonistic, but we've all had that one friend who gives you an unnecessarily hard time. It would also add a nice touch to things - despite all the hostility, Ryder would turn out to be loyal and defend CJ until the end, earning a more honourable death during "End Of The Line" perhaps. All speculative, but at this point what else do we have to talk about? There's no harm in discussing and expanding the lore. Just because it's not stated in the game or spelled out, that doesn't mean it can't have happened.

[lil weasel 2,674]

Rereading this, " Yes. He should've went out like a true gangsta. "  it seems to me Ryder did die as a gansta.

He was killed, (I use the HeAT  Launcher, from the pier).

Are Gangsta's supposed die in bed with their boots off?

[Max.pain 1,272]

yes exactly. loyal or not, he died like a gangsta, who didn’t die like a gangbanger/gangsta is johnny klebitz as an example.

[Eriahslon 25]

I would love to see Ryder working with CJ to get Sweet out of jail,meeting Cesar and helping with the car jobs or heck,even the casino heist.The ideas could go absolutely nuts and I would love to see him in the game more.

[Copcaller 404]

Yes he should have died holding off ballas members during the green sabre dying in cjs arms and telling him he wasn't a busta at all