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CarltonDanks69

What are your controversial beliefs?

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sivispacem
9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

Flight data recorders do though.

No, they don't. Flight Data Recorders record flight data; the clue is in the name. They're the same thing as what are colloquially referred to as black boxes.

What you're referring to here are cockpit voice recorders, and both the transcripts and the recorded audio of these are widely available.

In fact, fifteen seconds of Googling found the Flight 77 and Flight 11 bidirectional audio, captures from both ATC and pilots, hosted on the same YouTube channel (Pan-Pan)

 

9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

What about the families of the victims that are constantly asking for a larger investigation

What proportion of families of victims do you think are active in the truther community. One percent? Two? Five?

The overwhelming majority accept the findings of the Commission and other analyses; to pretend otherwise is frankly absurd.

 

9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

No investigation prior to the half assed commission even TRIED to look into the circumstances revolving 9/11.

Well, except for the FBI investigation, CIA internal review, the NTSB investigative actions, and bipartisan Congressional intelligence committee inquiry. So in actuality at least four prior investigations had taken place (or were underway) into the circumstances before the beginning of the commission. 

 

9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

even though some sort of Nano thermite was found in the dust of the collapsing tower

Thermite compounds typically consist of Iron Oxide and powdered Aluminium. The entire frame of the WTC was made from Iron based alloys, and commercial aircraft are made largely of Aluminium. Finding the two compounds intermingled is entirely unsurprising.

The whole "nano-thermite" argument faily to hold water under even the most basic scrutiny. How is it proposed that this material was detonated? Why were neither the ultraviolet or infrared emissions so typical of thermite present in the beyond-visual-spectrum equipment used by firefighters and other rescuers to try and identify people through the smoke and dust? How was nano-scale Aluminium produced in significant enough quantities to make the large weight of charges required to demolish two enormous buildings when commercial production was effectively nonexistent and the tiny amounts being experimentally produced were consumed almost entirely in academic research? The scientific discourse on nano-aluminium alone, let alone "nano-thermite", was effectively nonexistent until the mid 00's, so where's the evidence that anyone- the US military included- had it available for use?

 

Laughable.

 

9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

and molten steel was found at ground zero

There's no empirical evidence that this was or ever has been the case. It's been asserted by conspiracy theorists that photographs taken from Ground Zero show "molten steel", but none do. The images used to support this theory, like this:

 

Molten-Metal-Alan-Chin.jpg

 

and this:

 

jaws-web.jpg

 

Actually show burning paper and red hot (circa 5-600 centigrade), but far from molten, metals respectively.

If molten steel existed, then there would be photographic evidence of pooling once it cooled. There isn't.

 

9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

because you’re too afraid to even slightly question authority

I have no qualms with questioning the official line of reasoning; it's just the supposed "evidence" presented by truthers is so incoherent, contradictory and poorly interpreted that it simply does not stand up to any kind of rational critique.

Which is why I can sit here for literally hours picking holes in every single thing you say- because every single facet of it has been debunked and discredited so many different times now that it's a wonder any of you can possibly remain ignorant to this.

 

9 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

Concrete proof of some sort of manipulation

That's not "concrete proof" of anything- other than the author's basic inability to understanding either basic physics or image forensics.

The synchronisation of the two cameras is done frame by frame; that is to say, there's no consideration given for any additional offset (IE fractions of a second) between the two cameras. The images shown by the two cameras are very similar, but they're not identical despite their angles being pretty well aligned- this would suggest there's maybe- at a somewhat-educated but not entirely scientific guess- a tenth of a second (100ms) or so between them in terms of their offset.

 

You can see this most clearly in Frame 28, where the size and shape of the fuel fireball pushing through the black smoke to the right of the main blast is clearly a different size and shape. It appears larger on the lower video (IE the one taken from further away), as if it had expanded further, which would suggest that this camera is running fractionally behind the closer one in terms of when those frames are being captured. The expansion of the fireball is relatively slow, as you'd expect from a low-order, low-velocity deflagration like this.

 

 

 

 

 

A little side note/segway here; the common conspiracy theorist narrative is that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile. Missiles have warheads consisting of high-order, extremely high velocity explosives. They detonate extremely cleanly, very rapidly, with an extremely aggressive blast with rapid propagation, very little smoke and a very clearly defined pressure wave. Compare gun camera/BDA camera footage of military munitions with the Pentagon blast; they couldn't be more dissimilar if you tried. If I may indulge myself...

article11-768x507.jpg

 

The above image is a Mk82 bomb warhead detonating (well, actually several). This is, in the grand scheme of airborne munitions, a pretty small warhead- about 90kg, or 200lb, of explosive weight.

There's very little defined fireball, not much smoke, a clear blast wave effect and a huge dispersion of materials from the impact point.

The bright yellow initial blast to the right of the image is a fresh detonation; note how it's yellow-white rather than orange, signifying high temperatures, and also note the significant dispersion and defined shock wave clearly present despite the relatively small size of the fireball.

 

Compare with the Pentagon impact still:

 

Image result for 9/11 pentagon impact

 

As even a layman can see, they're absolutely nothing alike. There's relatively little material dispersed in the above, a huge orange lower temperature fireball, a great deal of black smoke already visible from the incomplete combustion of hydrocarbons and absolutely no blast wave. The Pentagon explosion looks pretty much exactly like simulated explosions used for film and television during the 80s, before the advent of CGI- or these days if you ever go to a military airshow and see simulated explosions like these:

3688937B00000578-3704774-If_you_didn_t_k

 

Do you know how they create those simulated explosions? Basically the dispersal and then ignition of hydrocarbon fuel- which explains why they look exactly the f*cking same. 

In essence, that's what happened. Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, dispersing its fuel load in the process, which then deflagrated exactly as you see above.

 

 

 

 

If the aircraft was travelling at ~250kts, it would have been doing approximately 130 meters per second. Therefore, in one tenth of a second, you would expect approximately thirteen meters of travel.

A Boeing 757 is about 47 meters long; so for every tenth of a second of time offset between the two cameras, you would expect about one-third of the length of the aircraft's additional travel, assuming the same point of capture for the two cameras (which isn't quite the case in this instance, but the difference between capture points is in the order of a few meters so it relatively small). 

In essence, the footage looks exactly how you would expect with a small offset (perhaps 50-100ms) in the camera frame capture points.

 

The approach used in that video to compare the two is so laughably unprofessional and utterly ignorant of the subject matter that the conclusions it reaches are simply unfathomable. 

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Cameron Star
11 hours ago, DownInTheHole said:

this is an uncontroversial opinion

You're a controversial opinion.

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f(x)ck

I'm kind of an antinatalist.

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BlackScout

The reason some places suck (as in: politics, quality of life, safety, economy and many others) is directly related to its population, its culture, who they vote for and their beliefs.
While external influence does exist, I believe that if your country sucks and nothing gets better you can't just blame politicians. THERE ARE OUTLIERS.

You may be part of the problem, a lot of other people are also definitely part of the problem. It isn't just the big hands that have the power that make everything suck, the tiny hands do too.

 

Here's an example: You blame politicians for the fall of the economy in your country. "Oh, they are corrupt, they steal, they take all the tax money and turn into profit for themselves."
Alright, fine, they are INDEED a problem. But what about you? What about that pen you stole from work last week, what about that thing you bought on the supermarket on the self-checkout as some other product?

You know, some people think they don't make a difference in this world, but they do! It's not them alone, it's everyone thinking in the same way that makes up a HUGE mess.

 

I hate it here in Brazil and I do believe that it's "everyone's" fault (myself included). Either because we don't give a sh*t, our actions don't reflect/end up in positive reactions or simply the mindset: "Uh, whatever, I'm fine who cares".

So, in the end, if we want to make a world a better place we have to become better people first. As an individual, as communities, we can't just expect those who hold the power to do something. They most likely won't do sh*t, because they are exactly a mirror of who we are.

 

btw, I don't have strong arguments for this. But I would like to discuss the matter.

Also, I do understand that in certain cases, the people don't have any power to make a change. In that scenario, yes, there's not much to do. (Let's say China, Venezuela, etc...)

 

english gore because kek
__

 

 

12 hours ago, sivispacem said:

...A little side note/segway here...

Segue? This is a segway: 

Can we make controversy around that?

BarcelonaSegway-T24-i.jpg

Edited by BlackScout

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CarltonDanks69
13 hours ago, Short Stay said:

Yeah, but you're totally forgetting that particular brand of Nano Thermite can only be manufactured off-planet and the only station operating at the time was the Mir station. That would involve not only the Russians but also the difficulty of getting the ingredients up to the station and getting the thermite back without any non-players noticing it. Could be done but v. difficult.

911 was an operation that required tons of hush money, military precision, and pin point accuracy by the highest levels of governmentS.

 

Nothing is too difficult when you practically have such a large amount of power and control to your disposal.

 

Also, sivi, whats your view on the Israeli art students that were anticipating and photographing the entire event? Just a coincidence huh? 

 

I havent witnessed this much denial in a long time. I know its a scary thought to believe that our government (that has a shady and dark ass past) would actually lie and be responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians. "I thought uncle sam loved me!" This is reality.

13 hours ago, sivispacem said:

utter nonsense 

 

What a shame...all those words that amounted to nothing because I or no one else ever claimed to know the specific warhead/missile used in the faux pentagon attack. For all we know, it couldve been some sort of weapon thats still kept from the public (and yes, The US has a history of keeping military weapons secret for up to several decades)

13 hours ago, sivispacem said:

What you're referring to here are cockpit voice recorders, and both the transcripts and the recorded audio of these are widely available.

In fact, fifteen seconds of Googling found the Flight 77 and Flight 11 bidirectional audio, captures from both ATC and pilots, hosted on the same YouTube channel (Pan-Pan)

I never asked for transcripts (which shows how hard you're digging) I asked why havent we been able to hear more than 15 seconds of it almost 20 yrs after the events? 

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CarltonDanks69
14 hours ago, sivispacem said:

Well, except for the FBI investigation, CIA internal review, the NTSB investigative actions, and bipartisan Congressional intelligence committee inquiry.

This is like asking OJ to investigate his own murders btw and its hilarious...Like I said before "HALF ASSED "INVESTIGATIONS" that gave the victims' families ZERO closure or didnt answer any of the questions that were on the publics mind with scientific precedent, and studies. Instead, 9/11 birthed a new unprecedented scientific study, according to NIST, that "explained" how office fires turned 2 110 story steel framed buildings to complete sh*t and  somehow collapsed another 47 story building (that wasnt even hit by a plane) the same exact way! GO f*ckING FIGURE!

 

These demolition teams have it all wrong. If they want to bring down a building into its own footprint at freefall speed or close to it, they shouldnt waste time and valuable resources planting charges on the columns, they should just start a fire on one of the floors and wait a few hours for "science" to do its thing!

 

 

Edited by CarltonDanks69

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sivispacem
3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

Also, sivi, whats your view on the Israeli art students that were anticipating and photographing the entire event? 

Oh look, now we see the anti-Semitic single start to creep into the theories. It's not surprising really given that the majority of well-known truthers are strongly aligned with the American white supremacist and Christian Identity movements. Neo-Nazis love any narrative where they can label Jews as the aggressors, and really the whole "Israeli foreknowledge" argument is just an extension of other anti-Semitic conspiracy theories like ZOG.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

our government 

Your government perhaps, not mine. I'm not a US citizen or resident, the flag next to my name should give you a clue as to where I'm posting from. 

 

The irony of you accusing me of "denial" whilst simultaneously ignoring every single rebuttal I make is not lost on me, but I suspect you lack the self awareness to see how ridiculous it sounds to an outside observer. You've "conveniently":

 

> Dropped any further discussion of nonexistent molten metal;

> Dropped any further discussion of the total butchering of the camera footage;

> Dropped any further discussion on the alleged "nano-thermite";

> Refuse to provide even a basic indication of what proportion of victim family are aligned with the truther movement, despite continuing to insist that most want the "truth".

 

Face it, you're way out of your depth trying to defend a view you believe solely ideologically, not because of the strength of empirical evidence supporting it. That's why you keep making up complete falsehoods.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

For all we know, it couldve been some sort of weapon thats still kept from the public 

An unnecessarily inefficient weapon that's extremely large and yet contains relatively little explosive power? That achieves most ioff its structural damage through kinetic impact and through low temperature deflagration? Basically, the world's largest, sh*ttest and least efficient fuel-air explosive.

 

Presumably this same "secret weapon" also flew round the Pentagon site at a speed too fast for human perception yet without sound, disseminating parts of an American Airlines Boeing 757 to keep up the ruse?

 

 

Helpful hint- when your conspiracy theory relies on you introducing new, additional conspiracy theories to explain away evidence that doesn't align with it, it's probably not accurate. Occam's Razor and all that.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

I asked why havent we been able to hear more than 15 seconds of it almost 20 yrs after the events? 

Both bidirectional audio recordings are over an hour long. They're not transcripts, though transcripts are provided along side them. They're literally the recorded conversations between F11 and F77 and ATC/Control towers.

 

Your pretending they don't exist despite me pointing you to a YouTube channel where they're hosted is just idiotic.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

This is like asking OJ to investigate his own murders btw

You've totally missed the point, again. You claimed that the Comission investigation was the only one that took place and no investigative actions occurred until it; this is complete nonsense.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

that "explained" how office fires turned 2 110 story steel framed buildings to complete sh*t 

I don't know why you find this so difficult to believe. There have been multiple complete collapses of high rise steel frame structures due to uncontrolled fires, including instances where the collapse has been significantly within the footprint of the building (contrary to the belief of truthers, neither tower actually collapsed into its own footprint). It's not exceptional; the onus is on you to prove it is.

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Baserape

Who did this?  Who did that?  This video explains everything. 

 

 

 

Undeniable proof of first contact.  The aliens are among us.  Possibly inside us without our consent.  

Edited by Baserape

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Mister Pink
5 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

This is like asking OJ to investigate his own murders btw and its hilarious...Like I said before "HALF ASSED "INVESTIGATIONS" that gave the victims' families ZERO closure or didnt answer any of the questions that were on the publics mind with scientific precedent, and studies.

No it's not. That's really a false equivalence. The thing with with conspiracies like these, it means your talking thousands of people in on this secret. And people aren't good at keeping secrets and you think multiple governments, and hundreds, if not thousands of employees across the FBI, the CIA, the NTSB, and the Congressional Intelligence Committee are in on this. And, you think this is because these are all US government organizations, and the US government is inherently bad and/or did bad stuff before.

 

Let's be generous and give you that it is a conspiracy and all those organizations are in on it, and lets ignore involvement from Russia and other governments etc for a moment. Say all those organizations such as FBI, CIA, NTSB, CIC were colluding in this conspiracy, it amazing how all those people and organizations are involved and not one whistle-blower? Not one person came out? Not one person that disagreed with the morality of covering up the death toll of nearly 3000 people? And nobody from one organization throwing another staff member under the bus (so to speak) to further gain their political or professional career by whistle-blowing, even anonymously. There's not 10, 5 or even one dissenter or whistle-blower. Everyone in this cover-up seem be all be morally on-board with this. 

 

This is why most conspiracy theories are absolute dog-sh*t. Not saying some nefarious things haven't happened in the past but on the scale of Flat Earth and 9/11, it's ridiculous.

 

On another note, about giving the families closure. The primary purpose of an incident investigation is not to give families closure. It's to find out what happened. How it happened. It's a scientific measurement or the best measurement they can find to find the truth of the situation. If families don't get closure from the results, that's too bad. Multiple times you are trying to appeal to emotion. Not going to work. 

 

Sorry to chime in on you and Sivi's debate but it was hard to sit by idly.  

 

I did originally come here to say my controversial belief is that pineapple is f*cking delicious on pizza!!!

 

Come at me bruh!

Edited by Mister Pink

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sivispacem

The cognitive dissonance between thinking that the US government is capable and agile enough to pull something like this off and architecting this grand conspiracy requiring tacit knowledge or outright participation from perhaps 1% of the entire US population (despite decades of procedural incompetence at every level)...yet careless enough that they leave "clues" that are apparently so obvious that uneducated mooks and internet oddballs with no subject matter expertise can find them, is frankly hilarious. 

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Bartleby

CarltonDanks69, have you noticed that you continually shy away from engaging on a point once a rebuttal has been attempted? That you've routinely failed to acknowledge when any point you raise is shown to be false? You seem to just move onto another angle of attack every time, without even attempting either to rehabilitate your position or acknowledge that you were incorrect. Even setting all else equal here, this sort of straw-clutching behavior is entirely consistent with someone who is not motivated by evidence or even discussion, but rather emotion and ideology.

 

In short, you're playing yourself.

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CarltonDanks69
2 hours ago, sivispacem said:

The cognitive dissonance between thinking that the US government is capable and agile enough to pull something like this off and architecting this grand conspiracy requiring tacit knowledge or outright participation from perhaps 1% of the entire US population (despite decades of procedural incompetence at every level)...yet careless enough that they leave "clues" that are apparently so obvious that uneducated mooks and internet oddballs with no subject matter expertise can find them, is frankly hilarious. 

I think you didn’t catch the “s” at the end of governments. There’s lots of evidence connecting Saudi Arabia and Israel to 9/11. 

5 hours ago, sivispacem said:

don't know why you find this so difficult to believe. There have been multiple complete collapses of high rise steel frame structures due to uncontrolled fires, including instances where the collapse has been significantly within the footprint of the building (contrary to the belief of truthers, neither tower actually collapsed into its own footprint). It's not exceptional; the onus is on you to prove it is.

List them. I want receipts. And show me that they fell at free fall speed and turned bodies into little tiny fragments. 

5 hours ago, sivispacem said:

Both bidirectional audio recordings are over an hour long. They're not transcripts, though transcripts are provided along side them. They're literally the recorded conversations between F11 and F77 and ATC/Control towers.

 

Your pretending they don't exist despite me pointing you to a YouTube channel where they're hosted is just idiotic.

You’re having a hard time grasping this aren’t you? Where’s the hour and a half of audio recording the TERRORISTS voices as they happened in the cockpit that morning? I don’t care about ATC or NORAD recordings. I want to hear the terrorists that supposedly carried out this unprecedented attack. 
 

also, an attack of that scale that’s THAT successfully destructive would’ve had terror groups all over the f*cking world clamoring to take responsibility, yet no one came forward and Osama even denied responsibility the day of the attacks. But that changes with that bullsh*t VHS tape conveniently found shortly after in some random Afghanistan hut. 

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BlackScout

I have a conspiracy:
He made this thread just to shove down his 9/11 nutsy ideas attempt to convince everyone that the 9/11 was a farce.

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sivispacem

Yet again, you've failed to actually address the vast majority of points made. Tell you what- don't bother replying again unless you're actually going to directly address my rebuttals.

 

It's a waste of my time. From now on I'll just delete any post of yours that doesn't directly address my comments.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

I think you didn’t catch the “s” at the end of governments

This exacerbates the issues I've highlighted with increasing complexity of the conspiracy rather than offering a rebuttal for it.

 

By making other states also complicit or involved, you end up expanding the pool of required participants even wider and making the whole thing even less likely.

 

And the notion of Saudi Arabia and Israel jointly conspiring is so unbelievably ignorant of the diplomatic relations between the two states- which were and are nonexistent- that it is patently absurd.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

There’s...evidence connecting Saudi Arabia 

This is about the closest you've got to being accurate in three pages of conspiracy.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

List them.

From literally five minutes Googling, the following steel frame or partially steel frame high rise structures have either partially or completely collapsed due to the affects of fire:

 

 

Plasco Building

Edifício Wilton Paes de Almeida

Windsor Tower (where in fact the entire steel frame structure collapsed, but the precast concrete core survived)

Alexis Nihon Plaza Montreal (partial)

One New York Plaza (partial)

 

The aftermath of Edifício Wilton Paes de Almeida in particular is extremely reminiscent of the collapses on 9/11.

 

 

The rest of your assertions are factually wrong and have been rebutted previously. Instead of repeating these falsehoods, why don't you address my previous comments around them? I know why- because you're incapable of doing so.

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

You’re having a hard time grasping this 

Maybe it's because you keep retrospectively changing what you're asking for?

 

The ATC recordings are the closest we have to CVR data in three of the four cases due to the destruction of the of the devices in three of the crashes. The fourth, Flight 93, has public transcripts available and has been played at the trials of involved parties and widely reported on by both the media and other parties who witnessed the trial.

 

The families actually requested that the recording wasn't released publicly so take that up with them, not me.

 

As an aside, it's not even clear how useful the CVR data would have been. The microphones used for recording are on the crew members' headsets, so would only pick up clearly if the terrorists actually put on the headsets. In the case of F93, the conflict between passengers and terrorists as they tried to retake the cockpit was effectively picked up as background as was reported by those who listened to the recordings as very difficult to discern. 

 

What reason do you have to distrust testimony like this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1515650/Shouts-moans-and-murder-on-Flight-93.html

 

3 hours ago, CarltonDanks69 said:

also, an attack of that scale that’s THAT successfully destructive would’ve had terror groups all over the f*cking world clamoring to take responsibility

On what are your basing this assertion? The clamour to claim credit for attacks is a relatively recent thing; groups didn't claim responsibility for the Oklahoma City Bombing, or the 1993 WTC bombing attempt, or a myriad of other attacks pre-9/11.

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sivispacem

A) because you're still apparently unable to actually address my points- instead you're still throwing more sh*t in the hope it sticks.

 

As per my post above, your comments will keep getting deleted until you actually respond directly to my comments.

 

B) the nature of your response to Blackscout; given you're a PBM on a very short leash you should probably wind your neck in.

 

 

 

I assume you've got more to say than the above? I could carry this on for as long as I need to by the way, it's frankly piss easy to pick apart your statements even without having to make you explain your alternative narrative. Though I'd love for you to tell us what you actually think did happen, so I can laugh uproariously at it.

 

 

 

Oh dear, your post above disappeared. Maybe next time you could respond to me instead of posting more drivel?

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CarltonDanks69
41 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Oklahoma City Bombing,

Please dont go down that route...lol 

 

Thats gonna thread off into another long debate. (dont tell me you believe the official story regarding the OKC bombing too)

30 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Though I'd love for you to tell us what you actually think did happen, so I can delete it

FTFY 

 

I already explained what I believe happened and what I beleive DID NOT happen.

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sivispacem

The only people who don't believe the Oklahoma City Bombing official narrative are Christian Identity nutters, the militia movement and white supremacists.

 

Which are you?

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Raavi

7/11 was a part-time job.

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