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tom_c2012

PSA: I Intend to Work on a Community Anti-Cheat System

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tom_c2012

The cheating level these days is horrendous. For well over a year I played and yes the cheating was a problem, but nowhere near what it is today. Perhaps my view is a bit tainted since apparently one cheater has made it his or her life mission to deny my ability to play GTA Online. But even before that started several days ago, it was a lot worse than I remembered it being. 

 

Like anything, the cheating has evolved and matured, and at this point I do not think there is anything Rockstar can do about it -- or they just dont want to. The cheaters can pretty much do what they want and you can't do anything about it. If you try to report or kick, you get disconnected. Rockstar doesn't even get the report. To make matters worse, you can't go through the web page to report the player becuase it is quite likely the player name you see is spoofed.  So what do you do with that? 

 

Of course, if you raise a ticket to support, Rockstar support will basically tell you how to use the in-game cheat reporting system, because as far as they officially will say, that system works. Yeah, OK. 

 

Enough about that, here is what I intend to do. We all know that it isn't hard to get your own private "public" session so you can grind your CEO and MC businesses without any interference. There is a nice tool out there that automates putting in a windows firewall rule, and you can even whitelist IPs so your friends can get in (if you know their IP). It is as simple as blocking UDP port 6672 inbound to all hosts, except any that are whitelisted. 

 

What I found testing is that only one person needs to be running the firewall rule. The others that are whitelisted can join that session, but no one else can join who is not whitelisted. And no, they cannot join via joining one of the others who isn't running the firewall rule. The system will only let a client connect if that client is able to talk on UDP port 6672 to every other client in that session. So only one client needs to run the firewall rule. 

 

What I am thinking is really this simple.... provide an app to the community of GTA Online players that don't want to be exposed to cheaters. When you install that app, it installs a small service that enables the firewall with the right whitelist of IPs. It is free of course, and will have a EULA so users are aware what they are signing up for. But basically that service will run on their system and maintain that firewall rule against a central source of whitelisted IPs. And those IPs would be the IPs of each person when they registered to be part of a cheat free zone. 

 

When you sign up, you provide your rockstar game ID, email (and that needs to be verified), and say "yes" to the system putting your game ID and ip addresss in the whitelist. Now when you join GTA Online, you will only be able to join with others in the cheat free network. 

 

Yes, there would be some nuances to iron out for people who don't have basically static IPs. Yes, there are nuances to iron out like how we would deal with the situation where a cheater gets into the network and is whitelisted. I have some good ideas on how to keep the network cheat free which I am not going to get into at this time. 

 

So my question for the community is this -- would you do this? Wouldn't you rather play amongst a subset of the playerbase where you will find far less cheating? I certainly would.

 

The problem for me is that a "private public" session with just you and a friend or two is not the full game experience. Yes, you can grind away, but it gets old real quick and is missing the element of risk that you can only get when trying to operate your business among rival players. So what I think we need is the ability to have a fairly big population of players all whitelisted and able to play in that "private public" session. 

Now, some will read this and say "but I don't want to be griefed either"! Well, hold that though for now. I don't want to try to start off with the goal of cheat free and also griefer free. I really am not convinced there are that there are really that many griefers that don't cheat. In my experience, true griefing is almost always done using cheats. So first I want to see how much of a problem griefing really is once the cheating problem has been addressed. 

 

What I envision at this point is that the network will have some governance (not by just me) to establish rules we will all follow regarding playing in an overly aggressive manner, completely shutting a player down with relentless attacks, 3 against one player, and/or level 223 players against a level 17, etc. There will be a way to report that kind of playing and possible ban from the network of whitelisted players.  And definitely, anyone in the network that is whitelisted and caught using exploits would be banned for life. 

 

Really, not much different from how the role playing unofficial servers are managed. You have to sign up, play according to agreed rules, and be subject to removal if not playing accordingly. Of course that woudln't ban from GTA Online entirely, but just be a ban from this centralized whitelisting. 

 

But I don't envision the network being a complete "no shooting" zone. Perhaps if this takes hold and gets big enough, the network can be split into two parts -- a sub-part that wants zero inter-player interference, and players that do want pressure from other players. But to begin, we will be focused solely on the cheating aspect. 

 

Oh, and I almost forgot to point out, yes you will be able to turn off the firewall rule if you do want to play in a full public session.... and re-enable it when you want to restrict play only with others in the network. 

If you would like to be part of this please let me know. If you would like to be part of putting it together, also please let me know. Not just development work or technical matters, but governance and other areas. 

 

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jargonaut

So... like that Guardian with cloud/ip sync, but you also want people's actual SC IDs?

Edited by jargonaut

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Zarbon
1 hour ago, tom_c2012 said:

So my question for the community is this -- would you do this?

No.

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mojito

lol i gave up on the game a long time ago. its either stuck in cloud or face cheaters.

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tom_c2012
15 hours ago, jargonaut said:

So... like that Guardian with cloud/ip sync, but you also want people's actual SC IDs?

I am actually very happy that immediately concerns of personal data/privacy are raised. Because it is 2019 and we all should be understanding what information we are disclosing to the services we use, and why that is needed and how it is used.  

For validation purposes and anti-cheat. Unfortunately, cheaters can make their in game playername appear to be whatever they want -- it doesn't even need to match an account that exists. This makes them virtually unreportable. For a system to work, we have to be willing to give our real gamertag. 

 

I guess it is important to point out, that right now today if you join a public session and a cheater comes along (which is almost guaranteed if you play for more than 20 minutes), the cheaters have your IP address and your gamertag. So whether or not you know it, that info is exposed right now today. You just cant see it in the game and don't know it is available in most (probably all) of the exploits in common use. 

 

So it is either continue to let that info be exposed to people who obviously have malicious intentions...... or share that info with a well managed group of players (which is what I am proposing)..... or continue to just play all alone in a public session or a small group of friends. The latter is what I think the majority of the legit players have resigned to doing. 

 

And if you want to have your own "private public" session with friends, you have to give those friends your gamertag and IP. It wouldn't be possible to do otherwise. 

 

The ideal scenario would be for Rockstar to actually put resources to this and solve the problem, but I think it is fair to say that will never happen. I sense from some things they have said to me in a bug report incident I filed, they may be working on a way to detect cheaters and put people who cheat into cheater pools. It would be great if that ever comes, but I have to say after a half a decade of literally nothing being delivered to clean up this game that I am not holding my breathe. But what I am proposing is kind of the same but opposite. I want to create a pool of non-cheaters. 

 

We must be able to make sure we know who exactly we are playing with ...and have a way to kick out people who are spoofing. Perhaps not all clients will run that piece, perhaps it will be an opt-in version, or only given to select people. Like I said before, there is still much to hash out, but a central component is the ability to ensure we know who is playing with us and that they are all registered. Becuase without that, it will take about 5 minutes for a cheater to get on the whitelist and remain undetected by spoofing their playername. 

 

I intend this to all be well documented, so that every person that considers joining understands exactly what is being done and what information is being collected and for what purposes. I am more than aware of the need for disclosure, transparency, and proper security and handling of these data points. 
 

 

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Big Molio

I have a much simpler solution. Just play on console.

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Sanches

I think i've seen this before. People are doing DIY anti cheat countermeasures and other would still disagree (i was there too tbh).


Good luck with that, would like to see what will happen.

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flexcreator

You ninja'd me. 


I also intend on working on the community anti-cheat system and I'm toying around with several concepts for years (without ANY success).


This is just my opinion, but I think that threads like these never lead to anything productive, because they don't present anything but concepts. People don't trust concepts, they trust implementation.

Eveyone can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?


It will always end up in discussion with naysayers, and naysaying is understandable.

  • Why would I invest my time into something that may or may not work?
  • What kind of research the presenter completed prior starting the thread?
  • What kind of technical expertise does have the original poster?
  • Did the original poster take the time to read the rest of the cheating-related threads on GTAForums?


Too many questions. What WOULD work instead is to try to build a small prototype and test your ideas yourself on a small scale. No one will do it for you.

 

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When you install that app, it installs a small service that enables the firewall with the right whitelist of IPs. 

VPN ruins this idea.

 

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When you sign up, you provide your rockstar game ID, email (and that needs to be verified), and say "yes" to the system putting your game ID and ip addresss in the whitelist. 

What prevents cheaters from whitelisting themselves in the system?
Who will pay for the server?
Who will take the legal responsibility if this information will be leaked due to the security issues? You DO understand you have to take a paid legal advice before you start operate with such data?
Also any sort of manual typing the IP addresses, emails and Rockstar IDs is a terrible idea.


How the Rockstar ID's will be used in this context? Do you know how to get the SCID without using mods yourself?

 

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Yes, there would be some nuances to iron out for people who don't have basically static IPs. Yes, there are nuances to iron out like how we would deal with the situation where a cheater gets into the network and is whitelisted. I have some good ideas on how to keep the network cheat free which I am not going to get into at this time. 

How would you counter the accidental IP collisions?

 

 

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So my question for the community is this -- would you do this?

Do what exactly? The concept is very vague in my opinion.

 

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The problem for me is that a "private public" session with just you and a friend or two is not the full game experience. Yes, you can grind away, but it gets old real quick and is missing the element of risk that you can only get when trying to operate your business among rival players. 

This can be solved by blacklisting the cheaters, not whitelisting the good players.

 

Quote

What I envision at this point is that the network will have some governance (not by just me) to establish rules we will all follow regarding playing in an overly aggressive manner, completely shutting a player down with relentless attacks, 3 against one player, and/or level 223 players against a level 17, etc. There will be a way to report that kind of playing and possible ban from the network of whitelisted players.

 

Dude, try to solve the cheating problem first without trying to "moralize" the sessions. I think you underestimate the scale.

 

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And definitely, anyone in the network that is whitelisted and caught using exploits would be banned for life. 


You DO realise players can buy a stolen account for $1 with a different Social Club ID ? So your SCID can be bypassed

 I'm sure there will be tons of cheaters in your "cheater free lobbies" that will annoy everyone just to prove that your system doesn't work at all.
And like I said, IP bans are solvable via VPN.

 

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Really, not much different from how the role playing unofficial servers are managed.

Completely different. Unofficial servers have ACTUAL dedicated servers.


 

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If you would like to be part of this please let me know. If you would like to be part of putting it together, also please let me know. Not just development work or technical matters, but governance and other areas. 

I don't want to be a part of this, because this will NOT work.  But you are welcome you to proove me wrong.


Here is my "governance":

  • Try to search and learn from the experience of others. You are not the first one who presents this idea.
  • Try to dig more into the technical aspects of the game. Technical knowledge is the key and, I'm sorry to say, you don't have it.
  • You need a dynamic self-adjusting system. Your static database with manual reviews (why do you think Rockstar stopped processing the manual reports in the first place? ) won't be convinient and won't be efficient on a large scale. Like I said, your "bans" and "restrictions" are easy to bypass.

 

2 hours ago, tom_c2012 said:

And if you want to have your own "private public" session with friends, you have to give those friends your gamertag and IP. It wouldn't be possible to do otherwise.

The current implementation of the Guardian doesn't allow to do otherwise, but technically speaking it can be avoided if you let another system to do all the low-level work. On a large scale you can build a proxy with server-side checks.
 

Quote

 

I sense from some things they have said to me in a bug report incident I filed, they may be working on a way to detect cheaters and put people who cheat into cheater pools. It would be great if that ever comes, but I have to say after a half a decade of literally nothing being delivered to clean up this game that I am not holding my breathe

 

Rockstar failed. My concepts failed. But what makes you think that your system will succeed?

In order to be better than Rockstar, you need to have a better understanding about the cheating problem.

 

You are trying to provide a solution to the problem you don't understand.

 

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I am more than aware of the need for disclosure, transparency, and proper security and handling of these data points.

Transparancy is the exact opposite  of security. That's why if some security organization wants to follow a "transparency" trend, they go to the independent reviewer, instead of mindlessly disclosing all the information to the public.

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Agatha Baker

Gta online will always be the paradise for cheaters, its hopeless.

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computertech82

I think that would be pretty cool. I just wish there was a way to force dumbstar to finally acknowledge their game is compromised and basically allows a cheat program (a mod menu type) full admin access the the ability to block any attempts to report said cheater. And actually bother fixing said issue, instead of pretending there is nothing wrong.

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Hécate-II
16 hours ago, flexcreator said:

What prevents cheaters from whitelisting themselves in the system?

 

Thats the biggest problem in my opinion, unless you have entire teams working at checking peoples, sessions...etc

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Geisterfaust

@tom_c2012 Don't waste your time and efforts, this game is dead. Only complete redesign and step away from P2P technology may help it, anything else is band aid. Unless you're doing for science and can get any credit for the efforts for your future job/ studies, don't even start. World is full of things in needs of fixing and Online isn't one of them, because R* won't let you.

 

If you're asking my opinion as a PC player: I will not bother with your anticheat at all, no matter what are you proposing because I'm done with the game. What will you offer me: ability to be blown up by underage racist morons who are not cheaters? I can get that on consoles, no thanks. I wasn't bothered with cheaters, because I have decided not to play toxic public back on console and on PC it was easier to manage sessions to be with like minded people.

 

What was needed though, is the ability to host our own custom sessions without public BS restrictions for IE and other 'businesses'.

Edited by Geisterfaust

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Mmcd

I don't even remember my Rockstar email...

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The Wandering Hunter

i think it will go to sh*t

 

once you get to a certain size it will collapse in on itself due to the complexity and cheaters wanting to sh*t in your cereal

 

 

wait hold on, i assumed that these would be friendly lobbies but really it’s just as easy for a mk2 to pop a boxville as it is for a cheater to do it (hell, the cheater probably has to press more buttons) i really are no point. all this effort just to wind up in the same situation as a ps4 public lobby

Edited by The Wandering Hunter

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tom_c2012

A lot of questions.... which I get the impression really aren't questions. At least not in the sense of "if I get these things clarified or answered, then I might be inclined to jump on board". 

 

So pardon if I don't answer them all because I am a little busy actually getting this done and into a state that can at least be piloted and used as a starting point for further maturing. 

 

My initial goal was to expand upon the work done by CodeSwine. For those not aware, CodeSwine's utility for getting a "public private" session in GTA Online is widely used. It is a nice piece of work. For me personally, I needed it to not require admin privileges. And when I say that I mean really not require admin privileges -- not hack my rigs to disable UAC etc. The reason I need a regular user runnable tool is because I really frown upon giving admin privileges to users who shouldn't be performing admin activities on the system. I can't help but wonder if the PC cheating problem might be a lot smaller if it weren't the case that every 14 year old playing the game on PC has admin rights. 

 

A better way to structure this tool would be to factor the firewall manipulations into a service that runs as localsystem, with a client app which connects to that service and which regular users can use to switch that firewall rule on/off and add IP's to the whitelist. So I went off and did that. Well, I did that mostly.... I don't have it in the UI to add IPs to the whitelist. 

Then I thought "why even have the whitelist in the app, and instead feed it from a central source... and that source is fed from all the people running this app and have opted in? And of course, why not make it dynamic so the IP's can be updated in the background? So I went off and built the service accordingly, and the usermode UI, and the externalized whitelist is still a TODO. 

 

For simplicity sake, I'll leave it at that..... but yes, I've pondered all the points made here already -- before posting a word about it here. 

 

So I would be happy to spend time with anyone that wants to help in some way, but I just don't have the time to individually sell this to each random guy on the internet. LOL. Yes, I laugh because I am exactly that in the eyes of all of you -- a random dude on the internet. 

Yes, I get that if cheaters can get on the whitelist it would pretty much kill the idea. When I said that this would be similar to the role playing sites, I didn't mean in terms of the games technical architecture, but instead was referring to the way they manage it. You have to apply, there is a vetting process, etc. and there are rules and you are expected to follow, and if you don't there are consequences. 

 

Yes, we would need all of that here as well. And specifically a way to detect the rule breakers so they can be detected and removed.... automatically and in real time. Still not ready to divulge a lot of detail on HOW I plan to do that, as it would just be used for the cheaters to figure out how to circumvent. 

I guess that hits on the idea of "transparency" and the push back I was given for stating I intend to be transparent. What I mean by that is I plan to make all aware exactly what the thing does, and specifically what info it collects about you or your system. But no, I don't plan on explaining how all those things are used to catch the cheating. 

And yes, I've done my homework as far as researching the cheating methods etc..... to include looking at source code for a few. Doing that, I can see what they are doing and how, and also see where those methods are weak and expose them to detection. I've spent plenty of time in wireshark  in session with exploiters -- enough to know that the exploits  do put off a detectable traffic pattern. No, you can't see inside the encrypted packets..... but you can certainly see what peers are sending a disproportionate amount of traffic.

 

I didn't get too far on that because while I was in early development, I just came to realize that putting up with the cheaters wasn't such a bad strategy, as it is fairly easy to detect them and leave that session. 

 

Thing is, it just wasn't that bad back then. Today is a totally different landscape. Exploits have matured, and spread like wildfire, and they have been able to effectively combat the ability to "report" in-game. This is why I strongly disagree with the thread in these forums that says the current state is :no critical warnings". Yep, we've just accepted it is what it is and will always be that way. 

 

I just cannot accept that. Cheaters are not just killing this game..... they put our entire PC gaming industry at risk. Will RDR2 come to PC? Probably not. But if it does, it will be because they learned their lesson on P2P architecture on PCs, where (once again I will say) every 14 year old kid has admin rights to the underlying platform. 

 

Lastly, regarding the comments about whitelisting being the backassward way of approaching this, and that it would be best to just blacklist the cheaters. Unfortunately, that needs to be done by R*. I don't have the ability to force the cheaters to install my app so their SCID and IP address can be used to blacklist them. So that makes the backasswards approach the only one viable. 

 

And yes, I know about guardian and I am sure there are others. Those are fine services, but those services won't have any specific ability to deal with GTAO cheaters.  The basic premise is that you only invite trusted people into your "private" session. The onus is on you to vet the people, etc. 

I envision starting out with the same basic premise, but really see it getting a little bigger. Because I am already thinking about what happens when someone does inadvertently let a cheater in. A service like Guardian is not going to offer any help in figuring out which person it is. I envision being able to provide some insight into who is most likely cheating in the session. That is going to be a core component in what I am working on. 

 

Also, the guardian client needs to be run as administrator. So by my above reasons, I don't see that as being a particularly good design. We need to get people out of the business of having admin tools running while they game, and not pour more on top of the fire. Myself and no one in my household plays games that run as admin or that need a utility run concurrently that needs admin.  

 

Moreover, the entire solution is geared towards eliminating randoms. I have not yet resigned to the idea that you can't have a positive gaming experience with randoms. Therefore we shoudl not let cheaters force us into that kind of gaming. 

 

Now I have to be fair about something. I've dinged 14 year olds a few times here.  I know there are adults cheating, and I know there are good young ones that don't and would never. But in my experience, I just am under the impression the majority are on the immature side. 

 

TL;DR
I think I might be the only one that wants to play without cheaters

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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BlanketFister

tl;dr never ever buy another online pc game from r*.

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flexcreator
53 minutes ago, tom_c2012 said:

I've spent plenty of time in wireshark  in session with exploiters --

In just a single session?? Don't you think that such amount of data is not enough?

 

Quote

enough to know that the exploits do put off a detectable traffic pattern. No, you can't see inside the encrypted packets..... but you can certainly see what peers are sending a disproportionate amount of traffic.

The closest player in the session sends the most "disproportionate" amount of traffic.

The next "disproportionate" amount is related to the social club cloud services. Nothing of this is even remotely related to the game exploits.

Therefore, nothing of this can be used to identify cheaters in GTA Online.

 

Even if some guy is actively using a mod menu, spamming cages and aircrafts, the most amount of network packages will come from the closest player in the session (or the player you spectate).

 

Cheater turns on the godmode. Now tell me what kind of traffic pattern does it send? You can't. Because there is no traffic.

Cheater spawns a UFO. Now tell me what kind of traffic pattern does it send? You can't. Because the UFO-related traffic most likely comes from the Rockstar Services (or from the session host), but not from the cheating peer directly.

 

Cheater sends the "you are gay" message using your Social Club ID without even being in your session in the first place (remote feature)

KLpo4m3mX4.png

 

Now, tell me - what kind of traffic pattern would you have in this case? Guess what? There is NO traffic pattern, because the cheater abuses the Rockstar Social Club services to send this message. You wouldn't even have the cheater's peer in the PCAP. I've checked this.

 

I also spent plenty of time in Wireshark. I have nearly ~100-150 traffic dumps collected from various cheating session (that includes the PewDiePie incident in december 2018). 

 

I'm sorry to say this, but there is NO detectable traffic pattern that would work to identify the mod menu users in GTA Online (I'm not even talking about the godmode abusers). You have to actually decrypt the traffic or read the game memory. Please, prove me wrong.

 

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Will RDR2 come to PC? Probably not. 

https://www.pcgamer.com/red-dead-redemption-2-pc-release-date/

 

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they put our entire PC gaming industry at risk

The PC gaming industry couldn't care less about the GTA problems. They just use dedicated servers and don't have problems like these.


 

Quote

 

I don't have the ability to force the cheaters to install my app so their SCID and IP address can be used to blacklist them. 

 

 

You don't need to force cheaters to install the app in order to blacklist them. You can block the incoming traffic (via the Firewall or the Proxy) once you find a reliable way to identify the cheater using your system. Blocking the cheaters from connecting to your session is not a problem. Me and my friends are doing it on a daily basis manually. The problem is to identify the cheaters in the automatic way without having to mess with the game memory (which could potentially lead to Ban)


 

Quote

 

So by my above reasons, I don't see that as being a particularly good design. We need to get people out of the business of having admin tools running while they game

 

Sorry, I don't get it. What's the actual problem with running tools with the adminstrator rights?


 

Quote

 

But in my experience, I just am under the impression the majority are on the immature side.

 

It doesn't matter who is cheating. What does matter is who are writing the cheating tools.


 

Quote

 

I think I might be the only one that wants to play without cheaters

 

Well, if you read the forums you will find out that this is not true. 

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LeakyLine
On 9/11/2019 at 12:15 PM, Big Molio said:

I have a much simpler solution. Just play on console.

But... But... PC Master race...

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The Wandering Hunter
2 hours ago, LeakyLine said:

But... But... PC Master race...

ill stick to total war warhammer on pc. gta online is a console exclusive

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El Payaso

Laughs while playing GTA Online on Xbox One cheater free.

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kenmy13999

Just play the real master race: console 😜

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Anda7x
1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

Laughs while playing GTA Online on Xbox One cheater free.

I pretty much have all online things(include cars) on offline using mods on PC,and thank god,no annoying kids screaming on my ear.

(laughs while playing at 60 fps)

Edited by Anda7x

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El Payaso
4 hours ago, Anda7x said:

I pretty much have all online things(include cars) on offline using mods on PC,and thank god,no annoying kids screaming on my ear.

(laughs while playing at 60 fps)

 

So much for GTA "Online". 😂😂😂😂😂

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