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Tasty_Pasta

GamesRadar interview with Rob Nelson

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Tasty_Pasta

https://www.gamesradar.com/rockstar-details-the-future-of-red-dead-online-we-are-only-just-getting-started/

 

An interesting read, but it doesn't provide much new insight.  He definitely acknowledged that they wanted people to be more into PVP and it hasn't really caught on.  Also that everyone wanted ponchos, so who knows, maybe they'll introduce improved ponchos in the future!

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DentureDynamite
Posted (edited)

"It took over a year for GTA Online to truly become the game it is today, and while we don't intend to take that long with Red Dead Online, we are only just getting started!"

 

...uh, if you're only getting started after almost a year, how long is it going to take you before the game is actually worth its salt?

 

Not buying the weak excuses, lack of common sense and content for RDO.

 

Rockstar had every opportunity to learn from GTA Online's mistakes, but clearly they did not.

 

At a minimum, they could have capitalized on the best aspects of RDR's multiplayer experience... but again, did not.

 

"Six years of creating content for GTA gave us a strong set of pillars or stakes in the ground to lean on when we needed to, whereas we had to find our way in the dark with GTA Online. Some of the fundamental things that we learned the hard way on GTA Online were fresh in our minds, so it gave us a structure to work from in terms of how to handle missions, how to do co-op gameplay in a certain way, and so on. GTA Online was a great point of reference to have for things that we could do, but also things that we didn't want to do."

 

"Nelson says that there were three key wants from the communities: better balancing, a stronger connection to your character, and ponchos!"

 

Seriously. *facepalms*

Edited by DentureDynamite

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4eyedcoupe

" Once we started making the changes that we made with the last update, the Showdown series seemed to be more well-received as part of the game's mix because people understood that it wasn't our focus, it was part of the menu, but it wasn't the sole direction that we were going to go."

 

I'm thinking it is more or less that they have made participation part of the daily challenges......

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The Deadite
Posted (edited)

Its good to know PvP is not their main focus, although its funny how they mention other players being too good "and mean" at it when the main problem with PvP that its a clunky broken unreedemable experience.

Edited by The Deadite

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Jason

Interesting interview with some interesting insight about both RDO and GTAO. 

 

"In GTA Online, we almost instantly made you a multi-millionaire with large scale content like yachts, and so then it's hard to take a step back from there. Then we said, 'now you could own a business, and that could make you money'. That's also great for players, but you can't step back from there either; you just have to go bigger, bigger, bigger."

 

Perhaps explains their reasoning for why GTAO is in the state it is with rocket bikes and the like. 

 

"By starting at the beginning of your story in Red Dead Online, Nelson says that Rockstar can "make each step forward slightly smaller but have those steps mean more to the player. All the while, you are growing more connected to your character and their experiences in the world."

 

I'm hoping they apply this same design/thinking to GTAO 2 personally. Start smaller and have the big stuff be the uncommon/rare pay-off moments rather than the norm.

 

"We love playing PvP, it's fun to make and fun to play and we get great ideas for larger concepts for the game from those modes. We like playing against other players and it's very hard to get AI that's going to be as good or as unpredictable as another player. But it also turns out that players are sometimes annoyed by that because other players play so well and can be so evil!"

 

AI being difficult to is why I've long thought the freeroam PvP is pushed so heavily so I'm not surprised at all to see them mention this. Thing is, AI being difficult in content like this is a Rockstar problem in my experience with other online games, they just need to give it a chance and see how players respond to it, cause it will probably be positive. Co-op with bad AI enemies trumps forced PvP interactions.

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Tasty_Pasta
2 hours ago, DentureDynamite said:

...uh, if you're only getting started after almost a year, how long is it going to take you before the game is actually worth its salt?

 

Not buying the weak excuses, lack of common sense and content for RDO.

 

Rockstar had every opportunity to learn from GTA Online's mistakes, but clearly they did not.

 

At a minimum, they could have capitalized on the best aspects of RDR's multiplayer experience... but again, did not.

It's definitely felt to me like they haven't learned anything from GTA Online.  They knew how lucrative GTA Online was, and how RDO could never start out being as popular.  They should've hit the ground running with tons of content and lots of updates, but they've hardly done anything significant since the initial release.

 

Single player fanboys would hate me, but I think they should've put way more work into the Online than the single player since they want it to last for years, and it's obvious that the Online was a total afterthought.

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YNNEL

The next update is make or break for the game imo. If it doesn’t hold peoples attention for more than a few weeks the player base is going to plummet. Then they’ll have an excuse not to bother with it.

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ALifeOfMisery
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, The Deadite said:

Its good to know PvP is not their main focus, although its funny how they mention other players being too good "and mean" at it when the main problem with PvP that its a clunky broken unreedemable experience.

It is good to know that PvP isn't their main focus, but if they really had learned anything from GTAO going into RDO, it never, ever, should have been, regardless of how much they enjoy PvP at R* towers.

 

Adversary Modes in GTAO have almost universally been sh*t upon by players for years, almost no one likes them and they are almost always absolute garbage.

 

The clunky, horrible controls, nightmare spawns and the effects of Ability Cards upon PvP in RDO are just the icing on the already sh*tty cake.

 

I genuinely wish R* would just abandon Showdowns and the even worse races. The amount of AFK players in them shows that a lot of players only do them for Daily Challenges and simply don't care for them.

 

4 hours ago, Jason said:

AI being difficult to is why I've long thought the freeroam PvP is pushed so heavily so I'm not surprised at all to see them mention this. Thing is, AI being difficult in content like this is a Rockstar problem in my experience with other online games, they just need to give it a chance and see how players respond to it, cause it will probably be positive. Co-op with bad AI enemies trumps forced PvP interactions.

This sums it up perfectly.

 

The most fun I ever had in GTAO was Heists and Doomsday Heists. The AI is terrible, more so in Doomsday Heists, but it isn't the challenge of beating the AI that was fun, at least for me. The fun was in getting a few players from here together for a few hours and playing towards a common goal. 

 

Four of us mindlessly killing waves of awful terminator AI in Doomsday Heists was infinitely more fun than us delivering a Bunker sale against real people.

Edited by ALifeOfMisery

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*Lola
4 hours ago, DentureDynamite said:

 

 

"Nelson says that there were three key wants from the communities: better balancing, a stronger connection to your character, and ponchos!"

 

Seriously. *facepalms*

Ponchos

source.gif

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QAnon
5 hours ago, Jason said:

Interesting interview with some interesting insight about both RDO and GTAO. 

 

"In GTA Online, we almost instantly made you a multi-millionaire with large scale content like yachts, and so then it's hard to take a step back from there. Then we said, 'now you could own a business, and that could make you money'. That's also great for players, but you can't step back from there either; you just have to go bigger, bigger, bigger."

 

Perhaps explains their reasoning for why GTAO is in the state it is with rocket bikes and the like. 

 

"By starting at the beginning of your story in Red Dead Online, Nelson says that Rockstar can "make each step forward slightly smaller but have those steps mean more to the player. All the while, you are growing more connected to your character and their experiences in the world."

 

I'm hoping they apply this same design/thinking to GTAO 2 personally. Start smaller and have the big stuff be the uncommon/rare pay-off moments rather than the norm.

 

"We love playing PvP, it's fun to make and fun to play and we get great ideas for larger concepts for the game from those modes. We like playing against other players and it's very hard to get AI that's going to be as good or as unpredictable as another player. But it also turns out that players are sometimes annoyed by that because other players play so well and can be so evil!"

 

AI being difficult to is why I've long thought the freeroam PvP is pushed so heavily so I'm not surprised at all to see them mention this. Thing is, AI being difficult in content like this is a Rockstar problem in my experience with other online games, they just need to give it a chance and see how players respond to it, cause it will probably be positive. Co-op with bad AI enemies trumps forced PvP interactions.

I thought the update sequence for GTAO made absolutely no sense. It didn’t follow the sequence of a small time criminal. 

 

On a personal rant: I always hated how people ignored the fact that what really killed the economy in GTAO was the heist update. The Heist gave us an easy way to make money, Do you really think R* was really gonna let us make money that easy?

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Jason
1 minute ago, QAnon said:

On a personal rant: I always hated how people ignored the fact that what really killed the economy in GTAO was the heist update. The Heist gave us an easy way to make money, Do you really think R* was really gonna let us make money that easy?

Heists had nothing to do with it, the economy breaking isn't tied to a single update it's tied to hacking and duping, which started in 2013. Even then, before hackers and duping, the money making methods back then were mad, mad money. There were missions that paid out something like 50k every 3-5 minutes (including 360/PS3 load times), missions were instantly repeatable for full payouts, etc - but they all got nerfed quickly. Rockstar had a $/hr they wanted people to make in mind from day 1 and they've tuned payouts around it since day 1.

 

Then there's dupes/exploits etc that went unpunished for the most part, which are still an on-going problem both in GTAO and RDO. Seriously as someone who has played a lot of online games and MMO's Rockstar's stance on duping is unique and bizarre considering the damage it does to the economy. Duping in other games is straight up scary cause developers have no mercy when it comes to dupers, it's permaban material.

 

 

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Dr.Rosenthal
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

It is good to know that PvP isn't their main focus, but if they really had learned anything from GTAO going into RDO, it never, ever, should have been, regardless of how much they enjoy PvP at R* towers.

 

Adversary Modes in GTAO have almost universally been sh*t upon by players for years, almost no one likes them and they are almost always absolute garbage.

 

The clunky, horrible controls, nightmare spawns and the effects of Ability Cards upon PvP in RDO are just the icing on the already sh*tty cake.

 

I genuinely wish R* would just abandon Showdowns and the even worse races. The amount of AFK players in them shows that a lot of players only do them for Daily Challenges and simply don't care for them.

 

This sums it up perfectly.

 

The most fun I ever had in GTAO was Heists and Doomsday Heists. The AI is terrible, more so in Doomsday Heists, but it isn't the challenge of beating the AI that was fun, at least for me. The fun was in getting a few players from here together for a few hours and playing towards a common goal. 

 

Four of us mindlessly killing waves of awful terminator AI in Doomsday Heists was infinitely more fun than us delivering a Bunker sale against real people.

 

Good points coming from you guys and I agree - I love playing through Heists with a good, reliable team.

 

However, having that same reliable team on board while hooked up on mic, fighting to seize goods from a rival team, or helping to push back opposition while trying to help an ally get away - that trumps any thrill of even the best AI opposition in my opinion. Whether it be a Business Battle or a RDO free mode job. And saying I should stick to Showdowns/Adversary Modes is reading it the wrong way, the thrill is with doing it all in free roam.

 

But it’s all in the balance, the way I see it. I prefer great PvE before bad PvP, but if I can wish for anything then it would be great PvP without a doubt. Not forced PvP, mind you, but that’s beside the point really.

 

Anyway. I hope we continue to see great PvE content going forward, the last few missions we got for Horley/LeClerk were a real improvement and I had a blast (just as the DDH was a huge improvement over the old heists).

Edited by Dr.Rosenthal

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QAnon
1 hour ago, Jason said:

Heists had nothing to do with it, the economy breaking isn't tied to a single update it's tied to hacking and duping, which started in 2013. Even then, before hackers and duping, the money making methods back then were mad, mad money. There were missions that paid out something like 50k every 3-5 minutes (including 360/PS3 load times), missions were instantly repeatable for full payouts, etc - but they all got nerfed quickly. Rockstar had a $/hr they wanted people to make in mind from day 1 and they've tuned payouts around it since day 1.

 

Then there's dupes/exploits etc that went unpunished for the most part, which are still an on-going problem both in GTAO and RDO. Seriously as someone who has played a lot of online games and MMO's Rockstar's stance on duping is unique and bizarre considering the damage it does to the economy. Duping in other games is straight up scary cause developers have no mercy when it comes to dupers, it's permaban material.

 

 

You definitely have valid points. But I still stand by my rant.

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Commander S

Hmm... Mix of 'encouraging' and 'concerning' in there - for instance, this is along the right lines, IMO:

 

"One of the biggest challenges I think we face is trying to create an experience that allows people to truly role-play in a non-linear way, while still feeling a deep sense of connection to their character and the world that they inhabit," Nelson says. "It means we can give players more agency and freedom, but without being able to structure the experience as much [as we can in single-player], how do you still make it meaningful?"

 

 

I can answer that one, Mr. Nelson: don't be afraid to make players choose between things.

 

I.e., don't fall into the GTAO trap of effectively forcing everyone to do everything - because at the moment, every GTAO player is more or less expected to work with SecuroServ and run a biker gang, and own/run a vehicle export business, a nightclub/contraband hub/spy truck hangar, an arms research bunker, a Bond villain hideout, a casino penthouse, etc. Not only does that mean that role-playing and player expression are limited to either 'buy/do all of the above' or 'have fun with the occasional new car', but it means ALL players fill the same role.

 

In other words, to use GTAO as an example: the more restrictive but meaningful route would have been to force players to choose between things - so either you're head of a criminal empire, or an MC president, or a nightclub owner, or an outsourced CIA asset, etc. Or a the very least, let people get rid of stuff if it's not for them, so that they can fine-tune who/what they are in the virtual space, rather than being stuck with those things forever, and permanently being defined by them.

 

That's why I like how there are three roles coming at once, and confirmation of more coming later on, rather than having 'the bounty hunter update', where everyone has to sign up and add it to their roster of businesses, or ...miss out on any new stuff to do. I hope that you can sell things like hunting wagons and gun lockers, though - that way, folks can try out roles, see what suits them, but nothing is set in stone forever if it turns out it's not everyone's style.

 

 

Meanwhile, this has me on yellow alert:

 

"In GTA Online, we almost instantly made you a multi-millionaire with large scale content like yachts, and so then it's hard to take a step back from there. Then we said, 'now you could own a business, and that could make you money'. That's also great for players, but you can't step back from there either; you just have to go bigger, bigger, bigger."

 

 

True enough about GTAO - but then there's this about RDO, which makes me think they've not thought through why the above is a problem, other than just in terms of pacing:

 

"You can have a business," he continues, "but we won't make it a business where you're running a railroad just yet – but instead it's a business that you're operating out of your camp. The principles of any business are the same anywhere, whether it's a big business or a small one, so let's apply what we've learned to a smaller business and then we'll figure out how we can expand that business over time."

 

 

My concern is that it winds up with "bigger, bigger, bigger" only being a matter of time. There was a previous interview where they said that they were trying to avoid players becoming Leviticus Cornwall right out of the starting gates - but it's still a pretty limiting vision for what players can be and do in your game if you're expecting that we're all going to wind up there eventually. Said it before: that's the GTAO problem, where your only options are 'become a big-money tycoon' or 'have fun ignoring 99% of any new content!'.

 

In other words, it's all well and good to correctly realise that it's not ideal to have everyone go from the high street to Wall Street immediately - but what about considering (and catering for) folks who simply don't ever want to wind up on Wall Street?

 

 

(and does anyone else find it weird and somewhat dissonant that we're supposed to want to take Devin Weston down several pegs in GTA V, but in GTAO, we're meant to aspire towards ...basically becoming a knock-off Devin Weston - ?)

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StyxTx
20 hours ago, DentureDynamite said:

 

"Nelson says that there were three key wants from the communities: better balancing, a stronger connection to your character, and ponchos!"

 

Seriously. *facepalms*

LOL. I know ponchos is at the top of my list. LOL

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DentureDynamite
Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2019 at 9:57 PM, Commander S said:

 

I can answer that one, Mr. Nelson: don't be afraid to make players choose between things.

 

I.e., don't fall into the GTAO trap of effectively forcing everyone to do everything - because at the moment, every GTAO player is more or less expected to work with SecuroServ and run a biker gang, and own/run a vehicle export business, a nightclub/contraband hub/spy truck hangar, an arms research bunker, a Bond villain hideout, a casino penthouse, etc. Not only does that mean that role-playing and player expression are limited to either 'buy/do all of the above' or 'have fun with the occasional new car', but it means ALL players fill the same role.

 

In other words, to use GTAO as an example: the more restrictive but meaningful route would have been to force players to choose between things - so either you're head of a criminal empire, or an MC president, or a nightclub owner, or an outsourced CIA asset, etc. Or a the very least, let people get rid of stuff if it's not for them, so that they can fine-tune who/what they are in the virtual space, rather than being stuck with those things forever, and permanently being defined by them.

^^ This right here.

 

Make a highly-interactive and time period-sensitive sandbox (which R* can do if they really want to!) and fill it with all kinds of modular depth and completely voluntary content, and long-term game play will pretty much take care of itself.

 

It's the basic definition of an open world game.

 

The catch in all this is that R* hasn't (and likely never will) sincerely ask, "What are in the best interests of players, and how can we make it happen?"

 

e.g. Mr. Nelson said that they wanted to improve character connection--one way to do that is by NOT limiting freedom of choice. Being able to sell properties, Pegasus vehicles, etc. (even at a significant loss), is one way to do just that.

 

TL;DR: STOP trying to create game play for players. Make the things that players can use to create game play themselves.

Edited by DentureDynamite

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Ghoffman9

One thing they need to understand right quick is that there is a difference between PvP and forced PvP. PvP is stuff like showdowns.

Forced PvP on the other hand is when you could be standing there alongside a lake fishing to only get popped in the back of the head by a guy who did it for the sh*ts and giggles. Most PvP in the open world is forced PvP and most people are in no mood for it and just want to do their own thing without being dragged into an endless deathmatch with no purpose.

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The Deadite
46 minutes ago, Ghoffman9 said:

One thing they need to understand right quick is that there is a difference between PvP and forced PvP. PvP is stuff like showdowns.

Forced PvP on the other hand is when you could be standing there alongside a lake fishing to only get popped in the back of the head by a guy who did it for the sh*ts and giggles. Most PvP in the open world is forced PvP and most people are in no mood for it and just want to do their own thing without being dragged into an endless deathmatch with no purpose.

Do like me and hit parley, go back to what you were doing and ignore the dude. If your pride doesnt let you ignore the guy that killed you in a videogame then the only thing forcing PvP upon yourself is you.

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netnow66
3 hours ago, Ghoffman9 said:

One thing they need to understand right quick is that there is a difference between PvP and forced PvP. PvP is stuff like showdowns.

Forced PvP on the other hand is when you could be standing there alongside a lake fishing to only get popped in the back of the head by a guy who did it for the sh*ts and giggles. Most PvP in the open world is forced PvP and most people are in no mood for it and just want to do their own thing without being dragged into an endless deathmatch with no purpose.

My bottom line is this--shooting a player in Defensive mode makes you an +++++++ griefer.

 

But, because of the way the game is ineptly (my opinion) set up, I have to acknowledge that someone can be in Defensive mode and be a griefer, so I will adjust that to, shooting a player who is obviously minding his own business in Defensive mode makes you an +++++++ griefer.

 

 

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Shane_Dbns

 

"We love playing PvP, it's fun to make and fun to play"

 

This pretty much killed a lot of interest in the future of RDO for me. I can't believe Rockstar thinks pvp which features clunky controls, an archaic lock on system from the ps2-era, Ability cards and dual wield sawn offs is fun.  

 

 

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Commander S
10 hours ago, DentureDynamite said:

^^ This right here.

 

Make a highly-interactive and time period-sensitive sandbox (which R* can do if they really want to!) and fill it with all kinds of modular depth and completely voluntary content, and long-term game play will pretty much take care of itself.

 

It's the basic definition of an open world game.

 

The catch in all this is that R* hasn't (and likely will never) sincerely ask, "What are in the best interests of players, and how can we make it happen?"

 

e.g. Mr. Nelson said that they wanted to improve character connection--one way to do that is by NOT limiting freedom of choice. Being able to sell properties, Pegasus vehicles, etc. (even at a significant loss), is one way to do just that.

 

TL;DR: STOP trying to create game play for players. Make the things that players can use to create game play themselves.



It all comes back to this, for me:

 

 

 

Specifically, these two 'bookend' quotes:

 

"With Grand Theft Auto Online, Rockstar Games is looking to bring the heart of the Grand Theft Auto experience to a living online world with multiple players. Just what you choose to do in that world is up to you."

 

"Grand Theft Auto Online brings the freedom of the Grand Theft Auto experience to multiple players, in a dynamic, shared world."

 

 

Put side-by-side like that, and ...yeah, I'd say that "freedom" is the heart of the Grand Theft Auto experience. Not "crime", not "realism", not "chaos", not "power fantasies", not "parody", not "cinematic presentation", but freedom - in the 'you can be anyone, do anything, go anywhere' sense.

 

In fact, considering how much less restrictive the original GTAO contact missions were, compared to your average hand-held, insta-fail, on-rails HD-era R* story mission, I feel like original GTAO was a weird accident, where the R* formula actually evolved in a positive way... ...and then got smacked back down like something out of a game of Whack-A-Mole. :turn:

 


But yeah, things like selling (or just discarding) things like Pegasus vehicles, businesses, even clothing, that'd make GTAO better, just by giving back more freedom to players. Freedom to role-play, but also just to have control over their experience - not just being stuck with a single on-rails experience with a fixed trajectory.

 

That's why I'm holding off getting stuck into the new RDO update when it arrives, until I see how restrictive all of it is. If everything's just another one-way street like in GTAO, with the only choices being 'acquire All The Things' or '*crickets*', that's not a good sign, IMO.

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Jason

GTAO does have freedom, in fairness. There's various pieces of content that allow you to roleplay as X/Y/Z but the problem is that none of it has any depth. You're compelled to become everything (biker, CEO, nightclub owner, etc) because you exhaust all the content any update has to offer in matter of days/week and none of that content sees any more updates or depth added to it so if you want something new you're basically forced to do the new content.

 

From what they're saying about the RDO roles it sounds like they are things they are going to expand on over time so the bounty hunter role for example may end up with you being some sort of cop in the future, or the trader role may end up with you owning a shop. That said, there may still be an element of "acquire all the things", we'll have to see.

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Ghoffman9
9 hours ago, The Deadite said:

Do like me and hit parley, go back to what you were doing and ignore the dude. If your pride doesnt let you ignore the guy that killed you in a videogame then the only thing forcing PvP upon yourself is you.

You're missing the point. The reason I mentioned that is because Rob Nelson stated he wanted people to be more into PvP, which I why I stated the importance between the two. People are not looking to PvP when they're hunting, picking herbs, or doing some fishing. Getting shot during a stranger mission is one thing, but doing other stuff like what I mentioned is different.

I don't want another Gta where you're lucky to go five feet without getting shot at by someone. Its because of such toxicity why many in Gta Online seclude themselves to their own solo sessions because they get nothing but bad experiences in public ones. I do have hope as they do seem to be trying to cater to those who are not looking to get into endless deathmatches for hours like the single minded troglodytes you usually find in Gta. Why they won't implement such measures for Gta Online too is beyond me.

1 hour ago, Jason said:

GTAO does have freedom, in fairness. There's various pieces of content that allow you to roleplay as X/Y/Z but the problem is that none of it has any depth. You're compelled to become everything (biker, CEO, nightclub owner, etc) because you exhaust all the content any update has to offer in matter of days/week and none of that content sees any more updates or depth added to it so if you want something new you're basically forced to do the new content.

 

From what they're saying about the RDO roles it sounds like they are things they are going to expand on over time so the bounty hunter role for example may end up with you being some sort of cop in the future, or the trader role may end up with you owning a shop. That said, there may still be an element of "acquire all the things", we'll have to see.

Its intentionally designed that way, they want the entertainment value in any update to fizzle out very quickly. If you're having fun then that means you might not buy any shark cards, and they can't have that.

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Jason
17 minutes ago, Ghoffman9 said:

Its intentionally designed that way, they want the entertainment value in any update to fizzle out very quickly. If you're having fun then that means you might not buy any shark cards, and they can't have that.

What on Earth are you on about?

 

People spend money on games when they're having fun, otherwise they're not playing the game and thus aint spending money.

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Ghoffman9
57 minutes ago, Jason said:

What on Earth are you on about?

 

People spend money on games when they're having fun, otherwise they're not playing the game and thus aint spending money.

Well thats the problem when you try to monetize progression through micro-transactions. If players are having too much fun then they would be less inclined to make micro-transaction purchases. It creates a conflict of interest between players and corporate. You think it was just some coincidence that stuff like CEO Crates, Biker businesses, Import/Export and so forth is very grindy and repetitive? There is no coincidence at all. Its set up in such a way where its entertaining for a short time but fizzles out quickly. To make the micro-transactions more appealing they intentionally sabotage their own game for that purpose.

Look at what Bethesda did with Fallout 76 in a controversial update awhile back. Weapons and armor breaking faster, power cores draining faster, legendary enemies spawning less frequently. All that was a push to get people into the atomic shop. 

For games such as Gta Online, they turn the gameplay into a grind that gets boring quickly and then offer you an "alternative". They create the problem then sell you the solution. I don't know how much more simpler I can lay this out for you to understand.

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Jason
11 minutes ago, Ghoffman9 said:

Well thats the problem when you try to monetize progression through micro-transactions.

Monetising progression is a huge problem and it's a problem that's made 100x worse in GTAO because GTAO has only one path of progression to begin with, but it doesn't change the fact that no one designs content that is meant to get boring quickly.

 

12 minutes ago, Ghoffman9 said:

You think it was just some coincidence that stuff like CEO Crates, Biker businesses, Import/Export and so forth is very grindy and repetitive? There is no coincidence at all.

Progression content in an online game is grindy and repetitive, it comes with the territory. Even the best games of this type have the same problem, it's not some cynical twisted design on Rockstar's part, it's simply impossible to produce enough unique content to last weeks/months, so content instead is designed to be replayable which naturally brings in grindy and repetitive elements. It's why online progression based games typically have periods of burnout for many players.

 

13 minutes ago, Ghoffman9 said:

To make the micro-transactions more appealing they intentionally sabotage their own game for that purpose.

This, however, is cynical twisted design and ties into what I said initially about monetising GTAO's only path of progression.

 

It's a problem they seem to have solved with Red Dead Online because progression hasn't been monetised and the roles they're adding sound like they're their individual paths of progression that can potentially have benefits when you progress down multiple of them, which is a HUGE step forward for Rockstar's online game design. We'll see if that's the case though of course.

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Commander S
2 hours ago, Jason said:

GTAO does have freedom, in fairness. There's various pieces of content that allow you to roleplay as X/Y/Z but the problem is that none of it has any depth. You're compelled to become everything (biker, CEO, nightclub owner, etc) because you exhaust all the content any update has to offer in matter of days/week and none of that content sees any more updates or depth added to it so if you want something new you're basically forced to do the new content.

 

From what they're saying about the RDO roles it sounds like they are things they are going to expand on over time so the bounty hunter role for example may end up with you being some sort of cop in the future, or the trader role may end up with you owning a shop. That said, there may still be an element of "acquire all the things", we'll have to see.



See, I don't think there's much freedom when the choices are 'permanently commit to specific thing X/Y/Z, and have it forever bound to your character/profile', or 'no new content for you!'.

 

If I buy a clubhouse, then I'm basically the head of a biker gang forever - it's not something I can then get rid of later. And since the role-play aspect to this kind of game isn't just defined by what you do, but also what you own and kit yourself out with, if you want to role-play as 'not a biker', that means you can't buy a clubhouse just to try it out. It's all or nothing with GTAO.

 

Compare that to something like Elite Dangerous, where you can use EVERYTHING interchangeably, and your role isn't dictated to you - i.e., you're not a bounty hunter because you permanently own a 'bounty hunter facility' (because such things don't exist in ED, anyway), or because you fly a specific designated bounty hunting ship (because there aren't any), but because you own a ship with a combat-spec loadout, and you ...hunt bounties. And if you want to just abandon the bounty hunting life completely, you can sell all your guns (or buy a whole new ship), buy some passenger cabins, and *boom*: you're captain of a cruise ship. And just captain of a cruise ship - not 'captain of a cruise ship who's also a bounty hunter, and a miner, and a smuggler, and an explorer, and...'.

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Jason
2 minutes ago, Commander S said:

See, I don't think there's much freedom when the choices are 'permanently commit to specific thing X/Y/Z, and have it forever bound to your character/profile', or 'no new content for you!'.

My point of view on that is that you can just not play that content once you're done with it, so while I technically still own the business I'm not restricted or forced into playing it, personally I view that as the game having freedom.

 

But like I said, there's no depth to any of this content so it's basically "replaced" by new content. I'm not against the idea of buying X and keeping X forever personally but I do see what you're saying, I wouldn't be against something like you're suggesting in GTAO2 or RDO, if the content had the depth anyway.

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Commander S
7 minutes ago, Jason said:

My point of view on that is that you can just not play that content once you're done with it, so while I technically still own the business I'm not restricted or forced into playing it, personally I view that as the game having freedom.

 

But like I said, there's no depth to any of this content so it's basically "replaced" by new content. I'm not against the idea of buying X and keeping X forever personally but I do see what you're saying, I wouldn't be against something like you're suggesting in GTAO2 or RDO, if the content had the depth anyway.



I get that you can just not use stuff, but ...it's still there. I can limit myself to only driving a Blista and living out of a base-level apartment in GTAO, and pretending that I'm just a regular civilian who isn't some swanky millionaire, but that doesn't mean my penthouse and my luxury yacht magically don't exist anymore.

 

From a role-playing perspective, that'd be like playing a BioWare-style RPG, and saying you're going for a 'non-lethal' playthrough halfway through the game - and just hoping everyone else in the game never mentions how you killed everything that moved in all the missions up to that point... :whistle:

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tonko
On 8/8/2019 at 6:46 PM, DentureDynamite said:

At a minimum, they could have capitalized on the best aspects of RDR's multiplayer experience... but again, did not.

This alone could've been a foundation for a great online western experience. After that just add new thingd and ideas.

 

Sadly, that premise is gone now.

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