[GTAO] Ethical Implications of Gambling in GTAO

[kcole4001]

1 hour ago, Big Molio said:

The bottom line is that even if you can buy GTA casino chips with GTA$ bought with real money via a Shark Card, you are still only buying another experience that the game has to offer. There is no way to convert winnings back to real money. That is the same then as taking a punt on many other elements of the game. Buying your way into premium races, betting on them, buying cars even.

And that's exactly the counter to the legal implication that GTA has 'real' gambling: you can't convert your winnings to real money (barring selling your account, which is against the terms of use, if not actually illegal).

Many countries (56 at last count) clearly have rather broad interpretations of what is gambling.

 

Some might also say that R* is safeguarding users from becoming addicted by rigging the system, but that's a wanton stretch of imagination and we all know it's BS.

The system is rigged, at least to an extent, and it's not because R* loves us and wants to keep us from being addicted. 

[Big Molio]

1 hour ago, HamwithCheese said:

The issue is that this is literally gambling with almost real money in a game. Its not just the kids, but the people that have a real problem with gambling. You hear these stories all the time. You got people spending hundreds, thousands of dollars just for a chance to get things they want. Now when you throw kids into this game, not only are you exposing them to this great environment of sensless killing and violence, you're also exposing them to gambling.

No different to paid loot boxes and other lucky choice type buy-ins which appear to be prevalent across gaming, especially tablet gaming, these days. My lad ran up a £500 bill on my card in just a couple of days playing Rocket League on XBOX, which has my card linked to his XBOX Live Gold account. That game surely is aimed at kids. He got carried away buying those keys which open those lucky crates. When we found out, I had to put a PIN on the marketplace so he can't buy anything any more.

[fw3]

2 hours ago, HamwithCheese said:

The issue is that this is literally gambling with almost real money in a game. Its not just the kids, but the people that have a real problem with gambling. You hear these stories all the time. You got people spending hundreds, thousands of dollars just for a chance to get things they want. Now when you throw kids into this game, not only are you exposing them to this great environment of sensless killing and violence, you're also exposing them to gambling.

As Gridl0k mentioned, the violence, debauchery, and reckless abandon that kids experience in GTA has always been of concern to parents since the early days of the franchise. But, despite how lecherous as those elements may seem to some people, there's no proven correlation to players engaging in such behavior due to playing the game.

With gambling, however, and especially to young players and kids, this new element could pose a potential introduction to a real world lifestyle that may present a detrimental impact on financial decision making and compulsive behaviors.

I mean, if a tryhard griefer can fluster a kid to the point of screaming at strangers and rage quitting, how will that kid handle having to explain to their parent that the $20 Shark Card they begged for was spent in a casino gambling on horses and playing blackjack?


 

[Lonely-Martin]

38 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

No different to paid loot boxes and other lucky choice type buy-ins which appear to be prevalent across gaming, especially tablet gaming, these days. My lad ran up a £500 bill on my card in just a couple of days playing Rocket League on XBOX, which has my card linked to his XBOX Live Gold account. That game surely is aimed at kids. He got carried away buying those keys which open those lucky crates. When we found out, I had to put a PIN on the marketplace so he can't buy anything any more.

That's just the problem, sorry to be an arse and point out the obvious Mo.

 

It doesn't matter what a developer does if parents are leaving their kids alone with a card linked. The whole lot is appealing and once connected, all just a push of a button away. And it's an expensive lesson anyone is happy to teach.

 

Of course, adding bait to lead a kid down a rabbit hole is naughty, but it's no different to letting them loose with a card in Game stores or arcade IRL. It's all made to appeal and sell.

 

@fw3. That's when parents, parent. I can understand the first card being wasted so quickly and a kid getting upset. But if a parent enables that further by ignoring a very obvious sign like that, that's all on them if the kid gets all caught up. Look at Big Mo's example. That's so easily avoided I feel.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Lonely-Martin

[Big Molio]

8 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

That's just the problem, sorry to be an arse and point out the obvious Mo.

 

It doesn't matter what a developer does if parents are leaving their kids alone with a card linked. The whole lot is appealing and once connected, all just a push of a button away. And it's an expensive lesson anyone is happy to teach.

Hey, I never claimed it wasn't our fault. We trusted him because he would usually come and ask us when he wanted something, but he got carried away and we should have seen it. No denial of guilt here.

 

[fw3]

48 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

No different to paid loot boxes and other lucky choice type buy-ins which appear to be prevalent across gaming, especially tablet gaming, these days. My lad ran up a £500 bill on my card in just a couple of days playing Rocket League on XBOX, which has my card linked to his XBOX Live Gold account. That game surely is aimed at kids. He got carried away buying those keys which open those lucky crates. When we found out, I had to put a PIN on the marketplace so he can't buy anything any more.

That's nuts, but I can totally see it. My kids are older teens and make their own money, so what they spend foolishly on gaming (and fast food, stuff for their cars, and useless tchotchkes) is on them. I tried to guide their spending decisions wisely, like a good parent, but it was for naught. Their version of independence is different from the independence I sought back in the 1970s. Vastly different.

[Yellow Dog with Cone]

17 hours ago, Gettin up said:

Stakes are too low in GTA Online. Hard to get addicted.

Sometimes it's not even the reward itself that makes people addicted to casinos (or gambling in general), but the thrill of winning, beating the house or getting what you wanted instead.

 

5 hours ago, Gridl0k said:

Kid turns up to the casino in a car smeared with blood from running down pedestrians, blows up the valet with a sticky bomb, gets called a cocksucker by a ped, and then bets on Red. And the last part is problematic.

 

Strange old world.

Yeah, that kid betting on red is the real problem.

 

 

5 hours ago, The FoolYT said:

Very good points all around but at the end of the day, it's a 18 + game and people above this age should be mature enough to make their own decisions or atleast short term financial ones. If they can't see that a shark card is a waste of money, then it is nobody elses fault except their own.

Adults should be responsable for their own spending habits, I agree, but it's not like casinos, games with lootboxes and gambling as a whole don't target specifically the ones who can't control theirs because of some addictive psychological tendencies.

 

4 hours ago, Libeaus Desconus said:

Are you guys really giving sh*t to R* for having a proper microtransaction system when 99% of the games out there rip people off using scammy tactics like loot boxes, illusory currency systems that don't exist in reality ; Like Apex letting you believe that they have an in-game currency when this currency can't be used on anything unless you shell 10$+ on it first.

Just because R* has one of the better monetization models in AAA gaming compared to the rest it doesn't mean that it's not sh*tty too.

 

Like yeah, we don't have to deal with lootbox nonsense or things like that, but we have to deal with other arguably worse crap: price inflation, power creep, lack of game balance, a double standard from R* when fixing glitches, etc.

[Lonely-Martin]

49 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Hey, I never claimed it wasn't our fault. We trusted him because he would usually come and ask us when he wanted something, but he got carried away and we should have seen it. No denial of guilt here.

I mean no offence or shame, what you/others highlight in other games is mind-boggling to be fair. I thought GTA:O was bad (money wise and hostility wise). I have so little experience with them as luckily my lad doesn't play Rocket League or a lot of modern games with these recurring spending tactics in. But I've read a couple of stories of yours relating to that game, I'm likely to just say no and forget it exists if my lad asked one day.

 

But unfortunately I've read and heard it IRL where parents do blame the games/developers etc when they themselves could have done more too, and often it's those parents looking to shift blame and try and get a refund, lol. But apologies if you felt I was having a pop, wasn't my intention. ✌

[hank_wayne]

The only reason people are losing their minds over this casino is because of the EA lootboxes. Which DOES NOT HAVE ANY RELEVANCE. If you want to draw a comparison. The only that could be viewed as a "lootbox" is the lucky wheel. Which is free, sure the arguement could be made that R* wouldve Made it cost money per spin if the lootbox drama hadn't happened. But even then, you only get rp,chips,money, or the featured casino car. Nothing game breaking. No weaponized car will ever be a prize for the wheel. All the ppl with their garments in a twist should pipe down abit. Most ppl know that they will likely get swindled out of money if the play casino games. Parents are to blame if Lil timmy spends shark card money on casino, Not R*, any adult that is foolish enough to spend shark money on casino needs to learn self control.

Bottomline, casino in an Adult game is FINE!!!!!!!!! Gta online is not an ethical game. Lers not pretend that it was ethical up until now?!

[RyuNova]

It's an 18 rated game. Rated as such in every country its available in (Or the countries highest equivalent rating) so children should not be playing it. Unless you want a Big Brother state then its upto the parents or guardians of the children to stop this.

[Big Molio]

5 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

I mean no offence or shame, what you/others highlight in other games is mind-boggling to be fair. I thought GTA:O was bad (money wise and hostility wise). I have so little experience with them as luckily my lad doesn't play Rocket League or a lot of modern games with these recurring spending tactics in. But I've read a couple of stories of yours relating to that game, I'm likely to just say no and forget it exists if my lad asked one day.

 

But unfortunately I've read and heard it IRL where parents do blame the games/developers etc when they themselves could have done more too, and often it's those parents looking to shift blame and try and get a refund, lol. But apologies if you felt I was having a pop, wasn't my intention. ✌

Not at all. Fortunately he is back into his stunt scooter again so the XBOX hasn’t been switched on for a while. But, you know, best will in the world and all that, we did restrict his time on it but we took our eye off the ball with him and next thing you know, I’m looking at my statement on my phone and all I can see is

 

MICROSOFT STORE 2.99

MICROSOFT STORE 2.99

MICROSOFT STORE 2.99

MICROSOFT STORE 2.99

etc etc

 

for about a week. There was probably 130 or so transactions  

 

You should have seen him brick himself when I confronted him about it, poor little bugger went white. But what do I say, he was only nine after all? Ah well. Lesson learned and all that.

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Big Molio

[Big_Show]

So you have ethical issues with gambling in the game because you can use real world money?  But killing cops, running a Biker MC with Meth labs, coke, weed etc. Gun running, robing stores, gang attacks, running over innocent civilians, the strip club, picking up hookers, getting call girls, taking drugs, all that stuff you're ok with?  

[Rumblebud]

22 minutes ago, Big_Show said:

So you have ethical issues with gambling in the game because you can use real world money?  But killing cops, running a Biker MC with Meth labs, coke, weed etc. Gun running, robing stores, gang attacks, running over innocent civilians, the strip club, picking up hookers, getting call girls, taking drugs, all that stuff you're ok with?  

It's a familiar perspective the game offers and revolves around. While I certainly don't agree with the aforementioned activity in the real world - for the typical sane person, likely wouldn't have a significant impact on one's daily habits or thoughts. It mostly depends on the person.

 

But gambling is a fairly new concept for this game that is still being experimented with. Tight laws, stakes and availability is understandably scaled for exactly those reasons; it's a particular thing where anybody can spiral into potentially harmful habits to ignore the risks and the consequences.

 

It can become difficult, compulsive behavior. But I would say that the stakes are well moderated for a game that has a component for real money.

[RyuNova]

10 hours ago, Big Molio said:

You should have seen him brick himself when I confronted him about it, poor little bugger went white. But what do I say, he was only nine after all? Ah well. Lesson learned and all that.

 

 

If he had that reaction to it then he knows what he did and should face the full brunt of the punishment. You need to click past multiple screens to buy anything and it shows the price in plain numbers beside the item you click on. This is not aimed at you but just in general but I am sick to the back teeth of parents blaming these companies and slating them on Social Media to get the money back instead of teaching their kids that its wrong and punishing them. All this teaches them is that if they scream, cry and complain loud enough they can get away with anything exactly like a baby or small child does instead of teaching them self-control and that the world owes them nothing.

 

If the child is old enough and tech savvy enough to know what a Microtransaction is and what they gain from it then they are old enough to read and understand the multiple screens that pop up plainly warning/advising you what happens.

Edited August 5, 2019 by RyuNova

[Big_Show]

On 8/5/2019 at 8:38 AM, CanadianMuscle said:

It's a familiar perspective the game offers and revolves around. While I certainly don't agree with the aforementioned activity in the real world - for the typical sane person, likely wouldn't have a significant impact on one's daily habits or thoughts. It mostly depends on the person.

 

But gambling is a fairly new concept for this game that is still being experimented with. Tight laws, stakes and availability is understandably scaled for exactly those reasons; it's a particular thing where anybody can spiral into potentially harmful habits to ignore the risks and the consequences.

 

It can become difficult, compulsive behavior. But I would say that the stakes are well moderated for a game that has a component for real money.

 Yes I agree gambling is addictive, yes some people are more predisposed to becoming addicted to gambling. But with all the other ethically questionable activities this game promotes. Did the game really ever had, has or will try to have a very moral or ethical standing? So gambling in GTAO in my opinion has not changed the ethical standing of this game, as it never had one to begin with.  

[DentureDynamite]

I'm glad R* did something with the casino after all these years, after the naysayers, etc. ... makes me think we could see animals in-game at some point. *cough*

 

But the casino is just another way for R* to screw their players over, so between that and the broomstick screwing?

 

I find other ways to have (limited) fun in the game.

Edited August 6, 2019 by DentureDynamite

[suicidal_banana]

Hate to be 'that guy' but dont let your kids play GTA unless they are actually of 'legal' age, and definitely dont buy them sharkcards. Tell them to play fortnite or minecraft or rocket league or mario games or whatever actually fits their age, and if they wanna waste money on microtransactions have them waste their own money on it, that way they will learn soon enough to not waste money on virtual crap.

 

On top of that its worth mentioning this is most likely why theres a 50k chips limit every 45 minutes or so, so kids (and gambling addicts lol) dont buy shark cards and then instantly lose all that money in the casino.

[Lonely-Martin]

9 minutes ago, suicidal_banana said:

Hate to be 'that guy'...

Reading your posts around here, I'd say you love to be 'that guy'

[suicidal_banana]

Okay maybe a little  all in good spirit though ^^

Edited August 6, 2019 by suicidal_banana

[kenmy13999]

14 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Reading your posts around here, I'd say you love to be 'that guy'

Hate to be 'that guy' but I think you're absolutely    jk 

[CarimboHanky]

i get the point of the OP, but at the end of the day this is an adults game.

 

yes, kids play the game but thats up to the parent if they allow them to play and even more if they buy cashcard to their kids.

 

personally i dont buy microtrans for any game, my kids have been nagging me to buy them the battle pass for fortnite and i simply told them no, play the game as is, cheat, glitch, whatever but im not paying for no battle pass.

[kenmy13999]

7 minutes ago, CarimboHanky said:

i simply told them no, play the game as is, cheat, glitch, whatever but im not paying for no battle pass.

This guy has a good understanding of how it should be

[OzakiLeona]

Don't let kids play GTA. And the they can't spend real money online, can they ?

 

IMHO it's done very well. It doesn't force you to gamble. It gives you no advantage from gambling. You get some stuff for free from the wheel, but that's more like symbolic reward for playing every day. Gambling is limited to measly 50k per 48 minutes. If you compare it to prices of items in the game, that's NOTHING.

The games are done very realistically, with proper rules and chances. It actually educates you on how casino works. How you can't make money on it in long term.

If anything I would welcome statistics of how much you lost and won on every game type. That would help in this aspect. One of the problem of gambling is that people can't keep track of their losses.

 

TL;DR I absolutely don't have issue with how gambling it is done in GTA.

 

[fw3]

On 8/6/2019 at 1:48 PM, OzakiLeona said:

1. It doesn't force you to gamble.
2. It gives you no advantage from gambling.
3. You get some stuff for free from the wheel, but that's more like symbolic reward for playing every day.
4. Gambling is limited to measly 50k per 48 minutes. 

5. The games are done very realistically, with proper rules and chances.
6. It actually educates you on how casino works. How you can't make money on it in long term.

7. One of the problem of gambling is that people can't keep track of their losses.

1. I agree, we're not forced to gamble, but the appeal of that content is a lot more appealing than other content in the game.
2. The advantage is winning, with actual risk attached. Unlike skill games, gambling is about being better than the odds to win.
3. Whether the reward is symbolic or actual, it definitely means a lot to players who log in everyday, just to spin.

4. To most, the winnings may be "measly," but to those who are broke, that $50k is worth tapping into every hour for six hours.
5. This is where I wonder if that realistic element could also lead to a realistic immersion into the gambling aspect of the game? 
6.  Sure, kids shouldn't play GTAO, but they do. Yes, parents should govern their kid's habits, but many don't. So, I wonder if that education on how it works, doesn't play into the question of whether there's an ethical conflict. Like you said, the games are very realistic, even though gamblers, much like in real life, don't make money from it, long term.
7. I wonder if that will be an added character stat at some point? Seems like a good idea to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, OzakiLeona. Really got me thinking about your points! Cheers!

[kcole4001]

On 8/6/2019 at 2:48 PM, OzakiLeona said:

......... One of the problem of gambling is that people can't keep track of their losses.

 

......

 

From what I've seen in reality, it's that people won't keep track of their losses.

I worked with people who played VLTs extensively and they always went on and on about how much they won.

Now, knowing roughly how much time they wasted playing these machines, I don't really doubt the win amounts.

None of them will ever admit how much they lost before they won.

That's where the danger lies: in not admitting that they aren't really winning at all in the long term.

[Hellbendzor]

Yeah, it does give a strange feeling gambling in GTA. But for me it's simple. . You just buy 50k chips, which gives you five 10k bets at the horses… As long as I keep my

balance above my initial balance, I continue to gamble. If I drop below that amount I quit… If I do hit it big (and most of the time I don't bet on the top horses anymore, as they changed that from the first week), I just get up and am on my merry way, just a lil bit richer than before… Otherwise I just lost 50k, which two headhunters easily take care off... 

 

My son just hates the gambling (he's fifteen). Lost a few times and now he just skips it all together… He doesn't like the odds (no pun intended) and he steers clear of this rigged sh*t...

Edited August 17, 2019 by Hellbendzor

[fw3]

14 hours ago, kcole4001 said:

[People] always went on and on about how much they won, [but] none of them will ever admit how much they lost before they won.

Really, this is an excellent point about the whole concept and the way a lot of gamblers justify their winnings.

When I was a teenager, I worked in a convenience store that sold lottery tickets. We had regular customers come in every single night to buy the daily numbers tickets, spending anywhere from $1 per ticket to $50 per night. It was crazy to watch people spend that much, especially the one's whom you knew didn't have it to spend.

But, there was this one guy named Russell. He was in his early 60's and walked with a cane due to an injury. We all knew he was a broken man and you could tell just by his overweight upper body and sunken, bruised-looking eyes.

He spent between $100 and $200 per week on lottery tickets and on occasion, he'd come back with a $50 winner or a few $5/$10 winners. Nothing major. But, one night he came in with a $1,000 winning ticket. You'd have thought he'd won a million dollars by the way he held the ticket up over his head and the store managers made us all clap for him. 

While the manager was filling out his claim forms, my other manager said to me, "yeah, he spends over $7,000 a year on lottery tickets and wins back about $2,000 a year from them." That's was my first lesson in why it's not a good idea to gamble. The belief that you actually have a chance is a lot more powerful than the actual chance you have to win.

Oh, and the odds on winning the lottery on a scratch ticket is typically about 1 in 250,000,000, based on how many tickets there are and how many you purchase, of course. And personally, I find those odds far, far more fantastic than simply saving the dollar for a rainy day. 

14 hours ago, Hellbendzor said:

My son just hates the gambling (he's fifteen). Lost a few times and now he just skips it all together… He doesn't like the odds (no pun intended) and he steers clear of this rigged sh*t...

That's actually a good sign to hear that some young people are turned off by the gambling aspect... and can recognized a rigged setup! 

[DentureDynamite]

^^ Truth.

 

I do spin the wheel if I'm bored in the game; but don't bother with anything else.

 

Won $50k last night; chump change really, but so far have won some clothing, RP, and the Jester Classic.

 

IMO, the only good thing about the casino is that after all these years and endless rumors (like the jet pack) it wasn't relegated to the mythical corner of GTA Online. :)

Edited August 20, 2019 by DentureDynamite