[GTAO] Ethical Implications of Gambling in GTAO

[fw3]

When I had kids, GTAIII was the game of choice. I didn't let them play until GTAIV, and even then it was only driving cars and with the volume turned off. They loved crashing around and got bored quickly, but still, it was fun and maintained a cartoony feel of the game.

It felt innocent, because despite all the other elements of game, there were no real world, tangible connections to the game beyond the initial purchase and the purchase of the DLC that followed (L&D, BoGT). No real world money, no kids begging mom for another Shark Card, nada.

But GTAO changed all that. It became like Monopoly, except buying Illinois Ave. or the B & O Railroad meant giving Parker Brothers $10 to get $1,000 in play-money. to buy stuff. Or, just grind the board by passing Go over and over until we collected that $1000 in play-money. But, that kind of grinding meant other players could buy stuff first, creating "purchase envy."

Most players understand the Monopoly analogy and the idea of grinding our tails off in GTAO to get money. Or, to give Rockstar $10 to get $100,000 in GTA$ money to avoid that "purchase envy" and satisfy our need for immediate gratification and new toys.

Skip ahead to the Casino update. It's big, beautiful, and what many of us wanted for years, assuming it was a wasted opportunity and a myth.

Yet, here it is and I ponder the ethical implications of a video game, where real world money can buy in-game money with which to gamble.

And while RDR2 has it, there's a big separation between the time period of the games, though the idea is still the same. GTAO emulates a modern casino and gambling experience that feels far more realistic that RDR2, and more immersive.

For those of us who have spent time in casinos, Rockstar got it right – the only thing missing is the stench of desperation and stale cigarettes.

To me, casinos in real life are depressing. Sure, they can be hella fun when approached wisely. My wife and I will venture out every couple of years, and bring $100 each to play with. Our understanding is that if we lose our $100, we're done, and If we double it, we're done. The idea is not to get caught up in the fanfare, but to enjoy the thrill while it lasts.

TL;DR
However, as anyone familiar with casinos knows, too, there are a lot of people – a lot – who don't know when to call it quits. For many people, gambling is a compulsive problem that may hinge on addictive behaviors. It's not a pretty thing to witness.

So, what could the ethical implications be for a video game, sold to folks over 17, and played by children under 17, that has the potential to create an immersive casino environment in which real world money is used to purchase in-game money to be used for gambling?

Parents are typically unaware when their child asks for another Shark Card, often assuming their child is using it to socialize with their friend group, which is perceived, nowadays, as a good thing.

For me, seeing the reaction my sons had after the Casino update, we had to have a real conversation about it. They were going on and on about how to count cards, which dealer paid out best, and ways to beat the odds at horse racing. While I am enjoying the Casino update and think it was really well executed, there's still a modicum of concern about my kid's exposure to using real money to gamble at their age.

I mean, we're not talking pennies and nickels, here.

Still TL;DR
Your thoughts on the ethical implications of gambling in GTAO, if any? 
Is there potential to feed or create a possible addiction among players, especially younger players?
Maybe the concern is just overthinking and players know the difference and how to handle it?
Did Rockstar design the update to address or prevent possible concerns such as these?

I dunno. I just thought it may be a discussion worth exploring and I'd be curious as to what other's think.
Also, here's a nifty article about the topic, for further reading.

Cheers and hope everyone is doing well! ~ fw3

[Rotorhead359]

Yes, gambling is addictive, especially to kids. Don't buy your kids shark cards but make them earn their money by playing the game (not the casino games, but the businesses, missions and stuff). That will make them think twice about wasting it on gambling, and they might just buy a nice supercar instead to show off their hard work. If they still want to gamble that money away, sure, let them. Just make sure it is not shark card money they bring to the casino.

When I was a kid, my parents made me work for my money. I hated it at the time, but I am grateful now, as it taught me the value of money (and time)

Edited August 3, 2019 by AirWolf359

[Pete4000uk]

Or, dont let kids play an adult game

[kcole4001]

We all know that there are a ton of kids playing, many are very responsible and civilized, I can even name some from watching live streams of both R* games and later found out some of these fellows are 15-18, so it's not really valid to utter a sweeping generalization that all under a certain age shouldn't play adult rated games, and even some that aren't adult rated to be sure!

Conversely, there are even more that should not have access to adult entertainment.

 

It's up to the parents to be parents and do their job of readying their children for the world, and to protect them from influences for which they're not yet strong enough to resist.

They have to know their kids, play with them, and assess if they can handle what's available or should wait until they're more mature.

 

Parents have to do their fundamental jobs, there is no substitute.

You can't just push the kids out the door and hope for the best, you have to teach and guide them, present them with strong examples.

Only then can you set them free to decide for themselves how to live their lives.

[Willy A. Jeep]

I've long lived by the rule of only gambling what I'm comfortable with losing, rather than thinking of what I might win. Even in the completely enclosed gambling of Fallout: New Vegas, I only ever bet a handful of chips, and only on the games I felt I had some control over. In GTA, that translates to really only playing blackjack, and only going up to 500 chips, since that's a relatively small sum in the grand scheme of GTAO (you lose the same amount every time you die, after all). I've always told friends to operate on the same principle, especially when dealing with real money, emphasizing the fact that the prospect of losing is more destructive than the benefits of winning are aiding.

 

As for the implications of losing real money, children being roped into gambling, and Rockstar's efforts to limit the games... Well, I think it is very much like real gambling. Adults need to be mindful of themselves and their own peers, responsible with their virtual money, and should know to avoid it if they can't keep in check. For parents, there needs to be oversight, and (as it is with all online interactions) they need to be aware of what their children are doing. Any GTA$ I've bought with a Shark Card has gone to items I knew I'd keep, so gambling isn't in that picture, and I'd apply the same rule to anybody I'd buy a Shark Card for. Some people will always be more responsible than others, and that needs to be used to manage everybody's spending.

 

That said, Rockstar has been more limiting with the betting than I imagined they would, and putting a mandatory cooldown on buying more chips helps. Giving chips out for jobs and on the wheel should also help keep players from feeling like they need to buy chips, but it's all down to personal management from there on out. Rockstar is obviously trying to make a profit on this, even if they're also keeping the stakes low enough to not cause community drama.

 

Nice to see another post from you, fw3! It's been too long (though the posts never are).

[Sanches]

No way to get addicted to it. In order to gamble in GTAO, you need to bypass loadings, phone calls and probably griefers.

[CosmicBuffalo]

Its super shady...a few days ago, R* is accused of ripping off the UK government by using subsidies, ironic timing.

Edited August 3, 2019 by CosmicBuffalo

[Gettin up]

Stakes are too low in GTA Online. Hard to get addicted.

[Big Molio]

I don’t know how real gamblers go on, I’ve had to go on a murderous griefing spree after every trip to that Casino, and I must have spunked well over a million there already. I swear that blackjack is rigged to f*ck. Bet low, win, bet high, lose the lot. I have a 19, the dealer will drop a 20, I have a 20 the dealer will hit you with 21. I have blackjack, so does the dealer. 

 

f*ck off casino.

 

(I’ll be back in there tomorrow, this run of bad luck will come to an end at some point, I can feel it)

[Lonely-Martin]

It's gambling, absolutely there's potential for it to become a compulsion/addiction.

 

But gaming has so much in common with gambling too, winning/unlocking things or trophies/awards, daily challenges or streaks, plenty to help build a complusion/addiction. Plus these days there's money on the table to be had. So many ways for a compulsive gamer to see their bank account, and personal hygiene (lol), drastically suffer too.

 

I've had plenty to say in parenting/modern gaming/adult content, I'll not ramble much on that, but more than ever parents needs to be involved and aware of so much more with their kids and gaming (not just GTA). It's not just gaming anymore, it's 'internet' and so open and easily accessible to all ages if left be. We need games to be seen similar to movies where parents in general more see an 18/NC-17 rating and know it could be potentially full of content unsuitable for younger viewers. Games do seem to be seen more lightly in this regard. (I feel so anyway, although many don't care what their kids watch too so not flawless, lol).

 

Not just kids though. Adults need to know their limits too of course, we all have 'em.

 

That said, I feel this is as honest as it gets, lol. Well, not honest as such, it is R* after all. I mean, it's a casino in an adult game. Can't get more obvious what it's all about, lol. It comes with good and bad potential, but its not a hidden thing in a game marketed to younger players, and it even restricts us so we can't spend shark card money on chips and how often we buy them (If I read the forums right during the info-rush, haven't looked into it as it doesn't apply. But if true, a good thing, IMHO).

 

Welcome back though @fw3! Hope your enjoying a little flutter yourself.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Lonely-Martin
Wording.

[Rez090]

@fw3Since nobody has said it here in this thread, shark card $$$ can't be used in the casino.

[flexcreator]

Quote

Is there potential to feed or create a possible addiction among players, especially younger players?

 

Think of it as a test drive.

It's better and safer to try the GTA casino games than to get addicted in the real life environment. Video games allow us to have negative experience, and we can learn from it. 

 

For example, as a little kid I was excited about the reckless driving I saw in action movies. And I was kinda having a stupid illusion that it would be such a cool idea to drive recklessly IRL as well.

Video games like "Need For Speed" completely erased that illusion, racing games show gamers how easy they can fail / lose / die by making a simple mistake. And by playing racing games, I quickly realized that there is plenty of room for mistake

 

Also, gambling became boring In a way, because computers and science nowadays almost replaced the luck factor. Professional players just learn the most optimal algorithms and charts (defined by computers by completing millions of iterations). The more you learn about this stuff, the less excited you are (as a gambler). Learning math (and the probability theory) can drop the excitement even lower. Actually, I never met an educated gambler IRL. I think education is the key to minimize the risk of becoming addicted.

 

If someone wants to introduce kids to gambling, they should introduce them to the Math first.

[Mmcd]

If u already have a lot of $ in game, gambling is truly great. I go between 10 and 50k a hand for Bjack. Ive won 200000k in 15 min while on a streak but dont lose that much. I start at 10 and double up to 20k then 40k if I lose hands 1 & 2. If I somehow lose hand 3, I bump it to 50. I also split & dub down a lot. Playing more hands reduces variance but don't overdo it. 3 card poker is PURE random chance w a terrible EROI. Avoid it. Also, do Ms Bakers freeroam missions to boost your chips a lot.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Mmcd

[Spectre "2K"]

1 hour ago, Rez090 said:

Since nobody has said it here in this thread, shark card $$$ can't be used in the casino.

yes, it can. It's only certain areas that can't, like a half gambling restriction 

[SummerFreeze]

I've lost 900k today. Can't even make it back with horse racing anymore. I think I'm done.

[TheBaronOfHell]

2 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

"...more than ever parents needs to be involved and aware of so much more with their kids and gaming (not just GTA). It's not just gaming anymore."

 

Absolutely this. I can remember working in a clothing store and having a parent give their toddler a phone to pacify them. He came to pay for his stuff and his card bounced, he checked his balance and the kid had bought a grand in tokens. 

[Gaffa]

2 hours ago, Rez090 said:

@fw3Since nobody has said it here in this thread, shark card $$$ can't be used in the casino.

Yeah that's inaccurate as Spectre pointed out. You may not be able to in your country, but it's certainly possible. 

[saintsrow]

8 hours ago, AirWolf359 said:

Yes, gambling is addictive, especially to kids. Don't buy your kids shark cards but make them earn their money by playing the game (not the casino games, but the businesses, missions and stuff). That will make them think twice about wasting it on gambling, and they might just buy a nice supercar instead to show off their hard work. If they still want to gamble that money away, sure, let them. Just make sure it is not shark card money they bring to the casino.

When I was a kid, my parents made me work for my money. I hated it at the time, but I am grateful now, as it taught me the value of money (and time)

Tie the kids' real life allowance to their chip count.  When they lose all their chips in 10 minutes of gambling, and have no allowance for a whole week, that will be a life lesson. 

 

EDIT:  If GTAV / GTA0 had parental controls, gambling could be turned off for some characters / accounts.  This subject points to the bigger ethical issue that Rockstar does not address, which is parental controls for other aspects of the game.  Millions and millions of parents don't mind their little ones reflexively shooting, blowing up and killing for hours on end in video games, but they don't want their little snowflakes exposed to bad words while they're killing.  Rockstar needs to put a range of parental controls in the game - a real life version of the Vindication Angel Cursebuster BC. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by saintsrow

[HamwithCheese]

50 minutes ago, saintsrow said:

Rockstar needs to put a range of parental controls in the game

That would imply that this game would be appropriate for kids. Itd be like having a daycare section in a strip club.

[saintsrow]

3 minutes ago, HamwithCheese said:

That would imply that this game would be appropriate for kids. Itd be like having a daycare section in a strip club.

"a daycare section in a strip club"  There's a market for that - all those divorced dads with child custody on the weekends. 

 

It's a million-dollar franchise idea - "Dora's Stripclub Daycare Playroom - we keep your kids happy and educated, while the strippers and lap dancers keep you happy and stimulated!  Why blow a week's pay for useless prize tickets at Chuck E Cheese, when you could be stuffing dollar bills into G-strings?"  Somebody's probably already got the business plan written for this.  

 

[NULL AND VOID]

Oddly enough, I feel the same disdain and frustration when I lose in the fake online casino as I do losing at the real casino's. Addictions are great though! Very easy to take advantage of addicts. I'm an addict. I would know.

 

"It's not a problem unless you make it a problem"

[Cackling Jack]

Back in gta San Andreas I really enjoyed having a go at the horses...then blowing the joint with stachel charges. In gtao I guess cam be addictive if your gambling non stop and cant turn it off. I suck at gambling and have know idea wtf Im doing so if i lose ill walk away. I have fun spinning that wheel everytime I get on though. As for the kids just moderate them or dont let play. Its up to you I guess. Enjoy!

Edited August 4, 2019 by Cackling Jack

[Rez090]

7 hours ago, Gaffa said:

Yeah that's inaccurate as Spectre pointed out. You may not be able to in your country, but it's certainly possible. 

Then the photo proof in another thread must be fake. don't remember which thread but the dude showed the in-game message that shark card money couldn't be used for chip purchases.

[ALifeOfMisery]

16 minutes ago, Rez090 said:

Then the photo proof in another thread must be fake. don't remember which thread but the dude showed the in-game message that shark card money couldn't be used for chip purchases.

 

[Gridl0k]

Kid turns up to the casino in a car smeared with blood from running down pedestrians, blows up the valet with a sticky bomb, gets called a cocksucker by a ped, and then bets on Red. And the last part is problematic.

 

Strange old world.

[CrimsonFolo]

Very good points all around but at the end of the day, it's a 18 + game and people above this age should be mature enough to make their own decisions or atleast short term financial ones. If they can't see that a shark card is a waste of money, then it is nobody elses fault except their own.

 

People go to casinos nowadays but you don't see anyone forcing them to go. Honestly I don't like gambling at all really unless they're specific niche ones for fun with no real money at stake (liars dice, poker against other players) I just used this update to earn easy gta money without any complex set ups.

 

Also the parents should keep an eye on the kids as well, If they leave them to their own devices, then don't be surprised when they believe paying money for an ingame currency (which can be generated easily or given out at any point and also is not limited therefore not really has an intrinsic value) is a good deal.

Heres another example of gambling : Fifa or COD. Fifa has them packs which you open for players and that's literally gambling and so are the cod supply drops. They are made so that it gives you that little bit of dopamine when you get what you wanted. Take gacha games as well, you use a currency to obtain cards or characters, you have the option of using real money to buy the game currency so you can obtain more cards and characters. People will get happy when they buy the car they want but then rockstar will release a new car but guess what, it isn't in singleplayer so you have to purchase it in multiplayer and for consoles, there is no option of modding it in so players are forced to grind for hours and hours for it, pay money or glitch/exploit.

 

Anyway back to my point, gambling bad --> 18+game so no liability on rockstar end --> if kid under 18 plays, parents should keep eye on or have some knowledge about what they're doing or educate them.

 

[Libeaus Desconus]

Are you guys really giving sh*t to R* for having a proper microtransaction system when 99% of the games out there rip people off using scammy tactics like loot boxes, illusory currency systems that don't exist in reality ; Like Apex letting you believe that they have an in-game currency when this currency can't be used on anything unless you shell 10$+ on it first.

 

The machine Odds are even shown and from my tests, Gambling in the Casino is pretty much a no loss activity (98.7% return) if you understand simple basic maths. You can't lose money ; only time because in the end, you'd make more money playing the game. (Unless you're one of that funky people who cheat and disconnect themselves on bad hands.)

Edited August 4, 2019 by Libeaus Desconus

[Big Molio]

The bottom line is that even if you can buy GTA casino chips with GTA$ bought with real money via a Shark Card, you are still only buying another experience that the game has to offer. There is no way to convert winnings back to real money. That is the same then as taking a punt on many other elements of the game. Buying your way into premium races, betting on them, buying cars even.

[HamwithCheese]

2 hours ago, Gridl0k said:

Kid turns up to the casino in a car smeared with blood from running down pedestrians, blows up the valet with a sticky bomb, gets called a cocksucker by a ped, and then bets on Red. And the last part is problematic.

 

Strange old world.

The issue is that this is literally gambling with almost real money in a game. Its not just the kids, but the people that have a real problem with gambling. You hear these stories all the time. You got people spending hundreds, thousands of dollars just for a chance to get things they want. Now when you throw kids into this game, not only are you exposing them to this great environment of sensless killing and violence, you're also exposing them to gambling.

Edited August 4, 2019 by HamwithCheese

[Gridl0k]

^ That's the reason the bottleneck is so very small. 50k chips per 48 minutes, and the restrictions on Shark Card cash where applicable, mean that you're going to struggle to form an addiction.

 

Now, an addiction to force-quitting the app, that's something else