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What kind of protagonist do you want?


The Holy Diver

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3 hours ago, Eugene H. Krabs said:

One with a lot of money. Do you know Gay Tony? Runs Hercules and Maisonette 9. I'll tell you a secret, he pretends to have the dollars but he's broke as hell - the loser.

GTA protags usually end up with a lot of money because of all the crazy sh*t they do. Tony doesn't do other than coke and run the nightclub businesses, lol.

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19 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

I don't think this matters in a GTA game. Even if men shoot more accurately than women on average, there as still some women who can shoot as accurately or better than some men. Why can't a GTA protagonist be one of those exceptional women? Besides, no man on earth can shoot anywhere near as accurately as any GTA protagonist in real life. Nobody has auto aim, you're supposed to suspend your disbelief. If you can do that for a man why can't you do that for a woman? 

Edited by JupeShot92
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Grotti Vigilante
7 hours ago, JupeShot92 said:

I don't think this matters in a GTA game. Even if men shoot more accurately than women on average, there as still some women who can shoot as accurately or better than some men. Why can't a GTA protagonist be one of those exceptional women? Besides, no man on earth can shoot anywhere near as accurately as any GTA protagonist in real life. Nobody has auto aim, you're supposed to suspend your disbelief. If you can do that for a man why can't you do that for a woman? 

Autoaim is not a good comparison since it is a gameplay mechanic that was designed to cater to inexperienced players. It is not an ability of the protagonist themselves in which we are supposed to suspend our disbelief, and therefore it is totally irrelevant. A GTA protagonist cannot be a woman because even if she is good with a gun, she will still be physically weaker than all the other protagonist and the men around her, and thus won't be taken seriously by underworld bosses and criminals. She will also lack the intimidating voice due to it's higher pitch. Men evolved deep voices for the sake of intimidation to other men. Women didn't evolve to intimidate or fight them at all though. Therefore, she still won't be getting far in criminal life.

 

Then you have Cosa Nostra and the Yakuza, two criminal organisations in GTA lore, that are all men both in game and real life except for relatives of these men who don't do any of the foot soldier work. These are very traditional organisations in their social values. There are no women in the mafia in GTA, and the only female Yakuza was Asuka Kasen, who was never a foot soldier and only got the position because of her brothers. Catalina is often cited as a promising protagonist, but even she wasn't that powerful. Her intimidation value came from the fact she had armed guards at her disposal. But when push comes to shove, she always tried to avoid one-on-one confrontations with Claude because she knew she stood no chance, unlike Tommy Vercetti who could easily intimidate people on his own.

 

The type of person who makes a good protagonist is, in my opinion, someone who displays traditional masculine qualities such as stoicism, courage, strength and aggression. Someone who has the power to walk away and intimidate someone on their own because of the vibe they give off even towards other criminals. Tommy Vercetti and Niko Bellic possessed a lot of these qualities, and Arthur Morgan possessed all of them as far as I can remember. These qualities are what get people to the higher positions of power inside the GTA criminal underworld. The criminal underworld doesn't have quotas for different sexes for the sake of representation, it's a dog-eat-dog world that most women wouldn't get far in unless she was born to a position of privilege like Asuka was with her brothers.

 

If you think that the solution to this is to simply have a female protagonist and give her all these masculine qualities, then I question what sort of value it would even bring to have a female protagonist at all. You might as well just have it be a man and stick to the formula instead of making a new high-risk low-reward move that risks alienating a portion of players. Give me an Arthur Morgan who can scare people without even laying a hand on them. Don't give me a Sadie Adler who couldn't even intimidate camp cook Pearson despite running off her loud mouth and wielding a knife. Give me a protagonist whose compelling and realistic, not someone who was inserted for the sake of representation which is a poor reason to begin with that only exists because of influential radical leftists. 

 

 

Edited by Grotti Vigilante
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Niko’s journey from Europe to America was so damn compelling from a narrative perspective that I hope R* are taking the same “immigrant approach” into serious consideration for VI’s protagonist.

 

Since the two Hispanic protagonists we already have are both American-born, an immigrant narco from South America (preferably Colombia) who travels (“on business”) to Vice City during the either the early or mid-‘70s just sounds right to me.

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47 minutes ago, Vega LVI said:

an immigrant narco from South America (preferably Colombia) who travels (“on business”) to Vice City during the either the early or mid-‘70s just sounds right to me.

From the slums to the Vice City via drug plane

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The Coconut Kid
2 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

Then you have Cosa Nostra and the Yakuza, two criminal organisations in GTA lore, that are all men both in game and real life except for relatives of these men who don't do any of the foot soldier work. These are very traditional organisations in their social values. There are no women in the mafia in GTA, and the only female Yakuza was Asuka Kasen, who was never a foot soldier and only got the position because of her brothers. Catalina is often cited as a promising protagonist, but even she wasn't that powerful. Her intimidation value came from the fact she had armed guards at her disposal. But when push comes to shove, she always tried to avoid one-on-one confrontations with Claude because she knew she stood no chance, unlike Tommy Vercetti who could easily intimidate people on his own.

Mary Valvona heads the Pavano Crime Family -- comparable in power to the Gambetti Crime Family -- which likely places her as the most powerful mafia figure in the series.

 

She isn't actually seen in the game, the fact that she even exists in the GTA universe is easy to miss, but her LCPD record makes for interesting reading: heroin bust in 1960 (when she would have been 12); extortion (at 13), loansharking, assault -- the bread-and-butter of the Tommy Vercetti's and Arthur Morgan's of the world. Allegedly she came to control the Pavanos by offing her husband with poison. There is very little else to go on regarding this character but I think it's fair to say that a person doesn't wield power over one of (if not the) most powerful mob family in the GTA universe, or command respect from four other families in Liberty City, without having put in their share of the legwork.

 

Then there's Elizabeta Torres, seen here at the beginning of Snow Storm going toe-to-toe with Little Jacob all on her own without a guard in sight, arguably the most powerful drug boss across Uptown LC -- a hard area to stand over if you've never proven your credentials. What's interesting about Elizabeta is the sheer amount of respect she seems to command from the more vicious members of the GTAIV era cast -- Billy Grey, brick sh*thouse of a man, is quick to remind Johnny to watch his back around her; she's physical with Johnny, a self-confessed 230 pound outlaw; she's the go-to for Packie McReary when he wants to do business in Bohan. There's nothing in her appearances that suggests to me she would make any less of a protagonist than Vercetti in the way she controls her territory and keeps her underlings in check.

 

Her rise to power, if ever we were to see it, wouldn't be any different to Tommy's in Vice City, given what it would take in terms of violence to rise to the top of the crack cocaine and heroin business. Probably even more violent, given the nature of those businesses and the characters she would encounter. Who did Vercetti really have to overcome to become the big boss of Vice City? Ricardo "Mr. Coke" Diaz, at the end of his power with an organization that makes no effort to avenge their bosses death and cease to be mentioned thereafter? Sonny "one mission" Forelli? Tommy is my favourite too, but let's not pretend he doesn't carve out his rep standing over the likes of Kent Paul and Ken Rosenberg for the majority of the story. He barely encounters a single character who isn't content for him to seize control of the city. [Edit: and when he does, it's a woman.]

 

What I find interesting about women crims in GTA, and I hope you'll see where I'm going with this point, is that they all seem to operate away from the established organizations and form their own gangs, which they head themselves. They all seem to have ambitions that wouldn't be realized if they were to accept subservient roles in an existing organization -- no different to any of the empire building protagonists we've had. Catalina probably wouldn't be taken seriously by other underworld bosses and criminals, you're right, which on one hand allows her to get one over on them when they have their guard down, and on the other forces her into ruthless acts of expansion which forces them to take notice -- look how quick Salvatore Leone is to stand up when she begins to operate a SPANK factory at a freighter down at Portland Docks. She is producing drugs at a rate that even the major bosses are unnerved by, taking an organization that was merely a supplier to the Leones in 1998 to a credible threat in 2001. Elizabeta controls her own operation, which she has probably built on the back of her own violence during a highly violent period, and she's the one driving its ambitions; she's got character traits that wouldn't accept being in a lesser position or held back by a less ambitious boss. Mary Valvona, head of the Pavanos, wasn't simply content at murdering her husband, but had to absorb control of his crime family and run it to her liking.

 

Here's Catalina cutting up two country boys on her lonesome, willing and capable of defending herself when push came to shove, and let's not forget how quick she was to slot Claude and her accomplice at the beginning of GTAIII, despite them both being armed to the teeth.

 

 

Well placed violence and ambition -- that's all a GTA protagonist needs to rise to the top of their respective criminal underworld.

 

...or if you're Tommy Vercetti, the characters around you to be gutless stereotypes written as crime bosses who provide as little challenge to your rise to power as possible.

Edited by The Coconut Kid
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Grotti Vigilante
1 hour ago, The Coconut Kid said:

Mary Valvona heads the Pavano Crime Family -- comparable in power to the Gambetti Crime Family -- which likely places her as the most powerful mafia figure in the series.

 

She isn't actually seen in the game, the fact that she even exists in the GTA universe is easy to miss, but her LCPD record makes for interesting reading: heroin bust in 1960 (when she would have been 12); extortion (at 13), loansharking, assault -- the bread-and-butter of the Tommy Vercetti's and Arthur Morgan's of the world. Allegedly she came to control the Pavanos by offing her husband with poison. There is very little else to go on regarding this character but I think it's fair to say that a person doesn't wield power over one of (if not the) most powerful mob family in the GTA universe, or command respect from four other families in Liberty City, without having put in their share of the legwork.

 

Then there's Elizabeta Torres, seen here at the beginning of Snow Storm going toe-to-toe with Little Jacob all on her own without a guard in sight, arguably the most powerful drug boss across Uptown LC -- a hard area to stand over if you've never proven your credentials. What's interesting about Elizabeta is the sheer amount of respect she seems to command from the more vicious members of the GTAIV era cast -- Billy Grey, brick sh*thouse of a man, is quick to remind Johnny to watch his back around her; she's physical with Johnny, a self-confessed 230 pound outlaw; she's the go-to for Packie McReary when he wants to do business in Bohan. There's nothing in her appearances that suggests to me she would make any less of a protagonist than Vercetti in the way she controls her territory and keeps her underlings in check.

 

Her rise to power, if ever we were to see it, wouldn't be any different to Tommy's in Vice City, given what it would take in terms of violence to rise to the top of the crack cocaine and heroin business. Probably even more violent, given the nature of those businesses and the characters she would encounter. Who did Vercetti really have to overcome to become the big boss of Vice City? Ricardo "Mr. Coke" Diaz, at the end of his power with an organization that makes no effort to avenge their bosses death and cease to be mentioned thereafter? Sonny "one mission" Forelli? Tommy is my favourite too, but let's not pretend he doesn't carve out his rep standing over the likes of Kent Paul and Ken Rosenberg for the majority of the story. He barely encounters a single character who isn't content for him to seize control of the city. [Edit: and when he does, it's a woman.]

 

What I find interesting about women crims in GTA, and I hope you'll see where I'm going with this point, is that they all seem to operate away from the established organizations and form their own gangs, which they head themselves. They all seem to have ambitions that wouldn't be realized if they were to accept subservient roles in an existing organization -- no different to any of the empire building protagonists we've had. Catalina probably wouldn't be taken seriously by other underworld bosses and criminals, you're right, which on one hand allows her to get one over on them when they have their guard down, and on the other forces her into ruthless acts of expansion which forces them to take notice -- look how quick Salvatore Leone is to stand up when she begins to operate a SPANK factory at a freighter down at Portland Docks. She is producing drugs at a rate that even the major bosses are unnerved by, taking an organization that was merely a supplier to the Leones in 1998 to a credible threat in 2001. Elizabeta controls her own operation, which she has probably built on the back of her own violence during a highly violent period, and she's the one driving its ambitions; she's got character traits that wouldn't accept being in a lesser position or held back by a less ambitious boss. Mary Valvona, head of the Pavanos, wasn't simply content at murdering her husband, but had to absorb control of his crime family and run it to her liking.

 

Here's Catalina cutting up two country boys on her lonesome, willing and capable of defending herself when push came to shove, and let's not forget how quick she was to slot Claude and her accomplice at the beginning of GTAIII, despite them both being armed to the teeth.

 

Well placed violence and ambition -- that's all a GTA protagonist needs to rise to the top of their respective criminal underworld.

 

...or if you're Tommy Vercetti, the characters around you to be gutless stereotypes written as crime bosses who provide as little challenge to your rise to power as possible.

Without going too much into detail since it'd risk going too far astray from the subject, Mary Valvona, Elizabeta Torres and Catalina didn't become powerful in the same way the protagonists have. Mary got power by manipulation at best and didn't need to do anything aside from marry and kill the right man to take over. Elizabeta simply used connections and opened up a market that was available to her and didn't need to compete with anyone. Finally Catalina simply was given her position and took what she could get. All these characters relied on men to actually do the dirty work that they themselves didn't do. It makes for decent characters if well written, but not for good protagonists since all those stories would be too short and/or suck so badly. Meanwhile, Tommy Vercetti, Toni Cipriani and Vic Vance took over by working their way up in the criminal underworld, through violence and intimidation such as smashing up shop windows in Shakedown or violently taking over other business like empire building. Some were written better than others here. 

 

The criminal underworld is a harsh, competitive environment like the corporate world, but unlike it, has no rules or regulations governing how people can become top dog. In order to have women become the leaders, their best bet is to do it like Torres or Valvona by opening up a market not there or by becoming leader of one organisation already through manipulation tactics rather than traditional GTA methods of taking over by force. In these traditional methods, most women would just be outcompeted by men because they're naturally more adept with violence, aggression and intimidation. It's pretty much how we've evolved, and even if you applied the manly traits to a woman, it adds no value to a female protagonist because it'd pretty much just be a man with less physical strength and a risk of alienating parts of the gaming audience. Therefore, it would ultimately be pointless anyway for Rockstar to even consider such a high-risk low-reward idea.

 

Now if Rockstar decides to focus more on player self-insertion rather than realism in their storylines, you'd probably be good to go. GTA Online is more about this, so it's more conceivable to let you play a woman, as it is with Saints Row. Even other non-related games like Mortal Kombat don't pretend to be realistic at all, so it's perfectly normal for Sonya Blade to beat the crap out of Kano despite strength differences. If you made a game similar to God of War but had an Amazon warrior instead, it'd be fine because it's all fantasy not pretending to be anything but. I could go into a whole essay about this, but that would take too much time and distract from the main subject which is what we want in a protagonist. Not to mention I've already had this debate before and made up my mind long ago, so it's somewhat pointless. But in short, unless Rockstar changes their approach, it will simply not be conceivable, or have little to no value at best, in creating a female protagonist for Grand Theft Auto.

 

Like I've said before, give me a character with traditional masculine qualities of stoicism, courage, strength of character and aggression, and in fact give me one whose not familiar at all with the map. These fish-out-of-water stories are some of the best ones in the series, and Niko Bellic's storyline was perhaps the best out of them because of him being forced to make his way through a harsh world that he expected better from judging by Roman's emails. Give us a character like him and Arthur Morgan who isn't just some black and white thug, but a damaged individual who is gradually losing all other options in his life and is finding himself doing things he doesn't really want to do, but has to in order to ensure survival of himself and those he loves. Don't give me someone whose just there for the sake of fan service and gender representation, because then I'll just end up not caring after a while. Looking at you Franklin Clinton and Trevor Philips. 

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@Grotti Vigilante I agree with quite a few points you made. To be completely honest, though, I personally think that the MAIN role of a woman in the realm of organized crime is being a seductress or a “honey trap”, i.e. seducing a male police officer, spy, other person of authority, rival mobster, or general public member as a means of blackmail, assassination, recruitment, money-making, etc. It’s almost like a combination of bribery and prostitution, though in all fairness, a man should be the one conducting it for authenticity’s sake, so even in that case, a man is behind it one way or another. However, drug dealing, gun running, money laundering, heists, etc. are all without a doubt, a man’s job.

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Grotti Vigilante
19 minutes ago, ThatKyloRenGuy said:

@Grotti Vigilante I agree with quite a few points you made. To be completely honest, though, I personally think that the MAIN role of a woman in the realm of organized crime is being a seductress or a “honey trap”, i.e. seducing a male police officer, spy, other person of authority, rival mobster, or general public member as a means of blackmail, assassination, recruitment, money-making, etc. It’s almost like a combination of bribery and prostitution, though in all fairness, a man should be the one conducting it for authenticity’s sake, so even in that case, a man is behind it one way or another. However, drug dealing, gun running, money laundering, heists, etc. are all without a doubt, a man’s job.

I quite like the idea of a minor female antagonist like that. One who passes herself off as sweet and innocent and just pure full of gold (Mary-Beth Gaskill, I am looking at you), but in that very process she's also working with the enemy and may just well be gathering information on you for that mobster husband/boyfriend you didn't even know about. The fact women aren't working in mobs just makes her all the less suspicious too. It'd also be interesting if she ends up falling for the protagonist and turns against her old boss, kind of like Pussy Galore in Goldfinger. Those are good potential characters. In fact, I think I'll get round to making a thread as to what you'd want in an antagonist in the next few days. That should be interesting. But just out of interest, what do you personally want in a protagonist?

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15 minutes ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

I quite like the idea of a minor female antagonist like that. One who passes herself off as sweet and innocent and just pure full of gold (Mary-Beth Gaskill, I am looking at you), but in that very process she's also working with the enemy and may just well be gathering information on you for that mobster husband/boyfriend you didn't even know about. The fact women aren't working in mobs just makes her all the less suspicious too. It'd also be interesting if she ends up falling for the protagonist and turns against her old boss, kind of like Pussy Galore in Goldfinger. Those are good potential characters. In fact, I think I'll get round to making a thread as to what you'd want in an antagonist in the next few days. That should be interesting. But just out of interest, what do you personally want in a protagonist?

Basically a protagonist who is pretty much both a hero and a villain at the same time, but still blunt, knows how to get stuff done, and straightforward. However, I wouldn’t care at all for a protagonist (especially in a GTA game) to be perhaps a bit too sympathetic, for self explanatory reasons, but at the same time, I also don’t like for them to be perhaps a bit too chaotic either.

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Grotti Vigilante
1 minute ago, ThatKyloRenGuy said:

Basically a protagonist who is pretty much both a hero and a villain at the same time, but still blunt, knows how to get stuff done, and straightforward. However, I wouldn’t care at all for a protagonist (especially in a GTA game) to be perhaps a bit too sympathetic, for self explanatory reasons, but at the same time, I also don’t like for them to be perhaps a bit too chaotic either.

Presumably this is why you like Niko Bellic right? He's morally grey, but he's competent and not afraid to ask for what he wants, and also not too chaotic or sympathetic. 

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17 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

Autoaim is not a good comparison since it is a gameplay mechanic that was designed to cater to inexperienced players. It is not an ability of the protagonist themselves in which we are supposed to suspend our disbelief, and therefore it is totally irrelevant. A GTA protagonist cannot be a woman because even if she is good with a gun, she will still be physically weaker than all the other protagonist and the men around her, and thus won't be taken seriously by underworld bosses and criminals. She will also lack the intimidating voice due to it's higher pitch. Men evolved deep voices for the sake of intimidation to other men. Women didn't evolve to intimidate or fight them at all though. Therefore, she still won't be getting far in criminal life.

 

Then you have Cosa Nostra and the Yakuza, two criminal organisations in GTA lore, that are all men both in game and real life except for relatives of these men who don't do any of the foot soldier work. These are very traditional organisations in their social values. There are no women in the mafia in GTA, and the only female Yakuza was Asuka Kasen, who was never a foot soldier and only got the position because of her brothers. Catalina is often cited as a promising protagonist, but even she wasn't that powerful. Her intimidation value came from the fact she had armed guards at her disposal. But when push comes to shove, she always tried to avoid one-on-one confrontations with Claude because she knew she stood no chance, unlike Tommy Vercetti who could easily intimidate people on his own.

 

The type of person who makes a good protagonist is, in my opinion, someone who displays traditional masculine qualities such as stoicism, courage, strength and aggression. Someone who has the power to walk away and intimidate someone on their own because of the vibe they give off even towards other criminals. Tommy Vercetti and Niko Bellic possessed a lot of these qualities, and Arthur Morgan possessed all of them as far as I can remember. These qualities are what get people to the higher positions of power inside the GTA criminal underworld. The criminal underworld doesn't have quotas for different sexes for the sake of representation, it's a dog-eat-dog world that most women wouldn't get far in unless she was born to a position of privilege like Asuka was with her brothers.

 

If you think that the solution to this is to simply have a female protagonist and give her all these masculine qualities, then I question what sort of value it would even bring to have a female protagonist at all. You might as well just have it be a man and stick to the formula instead of making a new high-risk low-reward move that risks alienating a portion of players. Give me an Arthur Morgan who can scare people without even laying a hand on them. Don't give me a Sadie Adler who couldn't even intimidate camp cook Pearson despite running off her loud mouth and wielding a knife. Give me a protagonist whose compelling and realistic, not someone who was inserted for the sake of representation which is a poor reason to begin with that only exists because of influential radical leftists. 

 

 

Listen I was just saying that your point about women not being able to shoot as well as men on average doesn't really have any bearing on a game where you can shoot down hundreds of people like it's nothing. Realism in that regard doesn't really matter. All the other points you made are fair enough though especially if a woman was the sole protagonist of the game. I did say earlier however that I wouldn't mind seeing a female protagonist if there were multiple protagonists in the game. In that situation she wouldn't have to be the one rubbing shoulders with criminals and intimidating people, beating people up etc. Your other protagonists can deal with that stuff. She could just be a trigger woman or something. There are a million different stories you could tell. The fact that no one in the criminal underworld would take her seriously could be written into her story and her struggle to overcome that could be a key part of her character arc. She could be a fish out of water and not particularly interested in becoming a powerful and feared crime figure and could instead only be motivated by revenge and maybe one of the male protagonists takes her under his wing to help her achieve that end. She could even be a cop, she could be ex army, she could be a kickboxer, it wouldn't be that difficult to write an explanation for why she would be a capable fighter. I just don't see why we have to play the same kind of stories over and over again. All I'm saying is I would be interested to see what a studio like Rockstar could do with a female protagonist, I don't know what radical leftists have to do with any of that. 

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The Coconut Kid
14 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

Without going too much into detail since it'd risk going too far astray from the subject, Mary Valvona, Elizabeta Torres and Catalina didn't become powerful in the same way the protagonists have. Mary got power by manipulation at best and didn't need to do anything aside from marry and kill the right man to take over. Elizabeta simply used connections and opened up a market that was available to her and didn't need to compete with anyone. Finally Catalina simply was given her position and took what she could get. All these characters relied on men to actually do the dirty work that they themselves didn't do. It makes for decent characters if well written, but not for good protagonists since all those stories would be too short and/or suck so badly. Meanwhile, Tommy Vercetti, Toni Cipriani and Vic Vance took over by working their way up in the criminal underworld, through violence and intimidation such as smashing up shop windows in Shakedown or violently taking over other business like empire building. Some were written better than others here. 

 

The criminal underworld is a harsh, competitive environment like the corporate world, but unlike it, has no rules or regulations governing how people can become top dog. In order to have women become the leaders, their best bet is to do it like Torres or Valvona by opening up a market not there or by becoming leader of one organisation already through manipulation tactics rather than traditional GTA methods of taking over by force. In these traditional methods, most women would just be outcompeted by men because they're naturally more adept with violence, aggression and intimidation. It's pretty much how we've evolved, and even if you applied the manly traits to a woman, it adds no value to a female protagonist because it'd pretty much just be a man with less physical strength and a risk of alienating parts of the gaming audience. Therefore, it would ultimately be pointless anyway for Rockstar to even consider such a high-risk low-reward idea.

There's a fact check needed here.


Nowhere in GTAIII is it shown that Catalina is given anything. Everything within her appearances indicates that she's driving the success of the SPANK trade across Liberty City. Of course, she requires a partner to start with, she's new in town, but there's no doubt from her interactions alongside Miguel that she's calling the shots. It's a classic case of someone approaching a failing organization with a big idea and then taking charge themselves because it doesn't keep up with their ambitions. Her success outgrows them -- no leeching off scraps with Catalina.


Everything we know about Elizabeta points to her coming to power at a time when the drug trade in North Algonquin and Bohan was up for grabs to anyone violent enough to control it: the arrest and demise of Dwayne Forge & his empire. We know that Playboy X took control of this empire but ceded control of Bohan at some point to Elizabeta. The market was already there, so either Elizabeta opened her own market in direct competition with Playboy (and any other drug figures who were fighting over Uptown) or began challenging existing markets that she could win control over. Hers is not simply a case of setting up in Bohan one day with superior product and no competition. She'll have graduated from a lowly street pusher (see her LCPD record) to a distributor to a senior crime figure in GTAIV who can operate alongside the very people she was competing with years ago, having handled the violence and intimidation inbetween. Her rise to power is no different to any of the protagonists you've mentioned... except that maybe hers comes to a more realistic conclusion: 300 years in prison.


We need to move past these false claims of boxticking or risk restricting ourselves to a needlessly narrow criteria of protagonist that serves up the same old story through the same tired eyes.


Given the choice between a Tommy Vercetti and his five mission (if that) rise-to-power and an Elizabeta Torres who climbs the drug trade from the low rungs to the top, I know which one is closer to the mold of my ideal protagonist.

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Would like to see a bad ass guy in middle age. Like Nico, but maybe Colombian or Mexican white guy.

Like him from Narcos Season 3.  He was bad ass.

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Female Prostitute

 

One day while working she gets into trouble with the mob because she was at the wrong place at the right time. Then you spend the game being hunted by the mob only only to sometime turn the table on them and kill them. From there you take over their business and start building your empire.

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As far as GTA characters go, I think we can class the 3 GTA protags as the worst in GTA history. They weren't exactly awful, but in comparison to some of the greats like Vercetti and CJ, they were pretty dire. Especially Michael and Franklin.

 

That being said, I would like to see some sort of low level gangster who works his way up. Preferably a male, because honestly I dont think a female lead would suit this kind of game. Ethnicity I dont really mind, as long as its believable. Would even be cool to see another foreigner like Niko in the game, who has to work his way up 

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Grotti Vigilante
9 hours ago, JupeShot92 said:

Listen I was just saying that your point about women not being able to shoot as well as men on average doesn't really have any bearing on a game where you can shoot down hundreds of people like it's nothing. Realism in that regard doesn't really matter. All the other points you made are fair enough though especially if a woman was the sole protagonist of the game. I did say earlier however that I wouldn't mind seeing a female protagonist if there were multiple protagonists in the game. In that situation she wouldn't have to be the one rubbing shoulders with criminals and intimidating people, beating people up etc. Your other protagonists can deal with that stuff. She could just be a trigger woman or something. There are a million different stories you could tell. The fact that no one in the criminal underworld would take her seriously could be written into her story and her struggle to overcome that could be a key part of her character arc. She could be a fish out of water and not particularly interested in becoming a powerful and feared crime figure and could instead only be motivated by revenge and maybe one of the male protagonists takes her under his wing to help her achieve that end. She could even be a cop, she could be ex army, she could be a kickboxer, it wouldn't be that difficult to write an explanation for why she would be a capable fighter. I just don't see why we have to play the same kind of stories over and over again. All I'm saying is I would be interested to see what a studio like Rockstar could do with a female protagonist, I don't know what radical leftists have to do with any of that. 

Maybe I responded a bit harshly to your point, especially since you seem to actually get where I'm coming from. The only issue with having her as one of the multiple protagonists is that if she's not doing what the others are, she's ending up like Franklin, a side-character in the story with very little bearing on the actual main plot between Michael and Trevor. That in itself is more a criticism of multiple protagonist, another feature which I am against implementing in GTA. It was nice to try out for GTA V, but it fell short, and I'd rather they all just focused on a single protagonist. It's better from a storyline perspective and made all previous journeys of protagonist much more interesting than GTA V's. Some obviously were more interesting than others.

 

I don't think it would be bad idea if it was just one male protagonist working with a female partner like Bonnie and Clyde, because the fact she isn't a protagonist means she doesn't have to do the violent things he does, and is somewhat realistic and feasible. If he's the brawn, she's the brains. It's like having Paige Harris being the hacker during the heist. She was a valuable team member who didn't do field work, but valuable hacking work that helped the outcome of the heist. But if she was a protagonist she'd have to be able to beat the crap out of other criminals who are mostly men, which just isn't happening. But If the protagonist is just a man working with his wife, a supporting character, who does intel work or something, then fine, I'm all open.

 

The point on radical leftists was more in reference to the idea of adding a female protagonist for the sake of representation, which is an issue not specifically relating to Rockstar. These people are always arguing for more representation of groups that they deem oppressed, but they don't actually care about quality characters or whether it's feasible. Some people complained that Dunkirk had a lack of diversity despite the film being historically based on a real event. It's just as well the same when films set in Ancient Egypt might give the roles to white men even though Ancient Egyptians probably weren't white. It was really just a minor point anyway. 

 

8 hours ago, The Coconut Kid said:

There's a fact check needed here.

Not only have I played and beaten all the games since GTA III (except Advance) and gained knowledge of the universes, and also researched the series a great deal, but I did in fact do a fact check, on the GTA wiki which says:

 

Quote

In 1991, aged fourteen, Elizabeta moved to Bohan, Liberty City, presumably with her parents. Immediately, Elizabeta started her drug dealing business, and with her contacts in Puerto Rico she became a successful drug baroness.

 

So there we have it, she used her connections to help her drug dealing business, and her rise to power was nothing like the other protagonists. None of her crimes were that serious in comparison either. They were due to substance and weapon possession, assault, and a minor criminal sex act. The substance crimes were personal ones to her, and the assault and minor sex charges aren't much compared to what others have done. Elizabeta has no evidence proving she worked her way up like everyone else. All of it points to her opening a market gap and getting arrested a few times. She didn't empire build like others such as Tommy and Vic. Catalina was also a simple small-time robber who had assistance from the men she slept with. She didn't work her way to the top of the Cartel, she did what you said and took charge to drive her ambitions. But she didn't rise up through working in the cartel like you would expect from a protagonist. She got given a leadership possession and did her part that she otherwise has no evidence of working for.

 

You can stubbornly argue about it all day, but the fact is, none of the women criminals in GTA became top dog thanks to working their way up through the criminal underworld. They took advantage of connections and market gaps, got given their leadership positions thanks to the right connections and not through working upwards, or used deception and manipulation tactics to get their job without doing much dirty work. You can't make a storyline out of that alone because it would be over so quickly. I understand that you might not like what I'm saying, but it's just the cold hard facts of the lore in GTA's universes. At this point I won't even bother debating it since I made up my mind long ago, and it would risk getting too far off-topic. But I will say that I won't boycott the game if Rockstar goes for it, even though I won't like it and it will be a crazy move. Yet if Rockstar miraculously does it feasibly and realistically while still making a good story, I'll make a whole thread explaining how wrong I was. I hope you can at least agree with me on that.

 

Edited by Grotti Vigilante
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On 7/14/2019 at 8:08 AM, Zello said:

 

I want a protagonist like African rebel who does a lot of voodoo.

There was that guy in bad boys 2. Maybe a side character though ?

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Main character, my favourites were Tommy Vercetti, Niko Bellic and Carl Johnson

 

My ideal character would probably be someone like Tommy Vercetti, a badass who whoops ass no matter whos it is. Niko was good as he had a good backstory and i could relate to the character in a sense. Carl Johnson was good because of the humor it had.

 

Alright Ideal Character

 

Male In 30s/40s (So not a greenhorn), maybe from a italian mafia and is exiled for some reason (maybe he wasn't of italian descent and was disgraced so they sent him somewhere dangerous hoping he would die, they being the mafia he was in). Is in one of the three cities (preferably Miami or Liberty City). Nationality could be anything as long as it's not italian, maybe a son of a italian - russian couple or maybe italian mafia man adopted child after wife had miscarriage? (After his dad died, possibly killed by mafia, he was sent to Miami/Liberty City)

 

The character would be self aware from the start that the mafia dislikes him but doesn't know how it is in general and so accepts it as normal. Maybe the character meets people along the way (like Little Jacob from GTA IV) who are cool with him and treat him well. This character could form a mafia of his own in a sense or something along those lines. 

 

The italian mafia then sends down some capos to push him about, main character does some sh*t for them but then the capos do something like beat the sh*t out of his friends or gets seen stealing money or doing something negative. Main character than wacks all of them except one. One runs away. Then the italian mafia sends over some of their top members from each italian mafia family (lets say 3-5 mafias working together as an organisation) and your character has to work his way to the top by taking out the enemies/opposition.

 

Does seem kinda random-ish but its a random idea

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A crazy Mexican drug cartel boss who flees Mexico because he pissed off the other Cartels. He'd be crazy and colorful but better written than Trevor.

Edited by Zello
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Either a female or an actual bad guy, not a whiner or "crook with a heart of gold"

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I think the 'good man in a bad man's game' idea for Vic Vance could potentially work for another GTA game, but this time for the character to develop and actually stay consistent. Vic never touched drugs yet ran a drug business anyway. I would like for a protagonist to start out sort of noble but okay with killing and sh*t like Vic was but maybe develop into a person who gets adjusted into the crime world.

this sounds a little stupid but I would just like for Rockstar to use this idea again because it needed some work and I feel like it actually could work again within the world of GTA.

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6 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

Maybe I responded a bit harshly to your point, especially since you seem to actually get where I'm coming from. The only issue with having her as one of the multiple protagonists is that if she's not doing what the others are, she's ending up like Franklin, a side-character in the story with very little bearing on the actual main plot between Michael and Trevor. That in itself is more a criticism of multiple protagonist, another feature which I am against implementing in GTA. It was nice to try out for GTA V, but it fell short, and I'd rather they all just focused on a single protagonist. It's better from a storyline perspective and made all previous journeys of protagonist much more interesting than GTA V's. Some obviously were more interesting than others.

 

I don't think it would be bad idea if it was just one male protagonist working with a female partner like Bonnie and Clyde, because the fact she isn't a protagonist means she doesn't have to do the violent things he does, and is somewhat realistic and feasible. If he's the brawn, she's the brains. It's like having Paige Harris being the hacker during the heist. She was a valuable team member who didn't do field work, but valuable hacking work that helped the outcome of the heist. But if she was a protagonist she'd have to be able to beat the crap out of other criminals who are mostly men, which just isn't happening. But If the protagonist is just a man working with his wife, a supporting character, who does intel work or something, then fine, I'm all open.

 

The point on radical leftists was more in reference to the idea of adding a female protagonist for the sake of representation, which is an issue not specifically relating to Rockstar. These people are always arguing for more representation of groups that they deem oppressed, but they don't actually care about quality characters or whether it's feasible. Some people complained that Dunkirk had a lack of diversity despite the film being historically based on a real event. It's just as well the same when films set in Ancient Egypt might give the roles to white men even though Ancient Egyptians probably weren't white. It was really just a minor point anyway. 

 

Not only have I played and beaten all the games since GTA III (except Advance) and gained knowledge of the universes, and also researched the series a great deal, but I did in fact do a fact check, on the GTA wiki which says:

 

 

So there we have it, she used her connections to help her drug dealing business, and her rise to power was nothing like the other protagonists. None of her crimes were that serious in comparison either. They were due to substance and weapon possession, assault, and a minor criminal sex act. The substance crimes were personal ones to her, and the assault and minor sex charges aren't much compared to what others have done. Elizabeta has no evidence proving she worked her way up like everyone else. All of it points to her opening a market gap and getting arrested a few times. She didn't empire build like others such as Tommy and Vic. Catalina was also a simple small-time robber who had assistance from the men she slept with. She didn't work her way to the top of the Cartel, she did what you said and took charge to drive her ambitions. But she didn't rise up through working in the cartel like you would expect from a protagonist. She got given a leadership possession and did her part that she otherwise has no evidence of working for.

 

You can stubbornly argue about it all day, but the fact is, none of the women criminals in GTA became top dog thanks to working their way up through the criminal underworld. They took advantage of connections and market gaps, got given their leadership positions thanks to the right connections and not through working upwards, or used deception and manipulation tactics to get their job without doing much dirty work. You can't make a storyline out of that alone because it would be over so quickly. I understand that you might not like what I'm saying, but it's just the cold hard facts of the lore in GTA's universes. At this point I won't even bother debating it since I made up my mind long ago, and it would risk getting too far off-topic. But I will say that I won't boycott the game if Rockstar goes for it, even though I won't like it and it will be a crazy move. Yet if Rockstar miraculously does it feasibly and realistically while still making a good story, I'll make a whole thread explaining how wrong I was. I hope you can at least agree with me on that.

 

What about a woman like geselda blanco the godmother of coke? She was one of the head in charge of the medellin cartel and also was over the miami area. Pablo escobar was your main guy but he had to get her blessings to move weight in miami and she also had to be a real force the way they killed her as soon as she stepped foot back in colombia once the u.s released her from prison

Edited by Viceportcoke
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