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DirtCheap

Why is VC considered as mature as IV?

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DirtCheap
Posted (edited)

I know this should go to the VC forum, as I'm discussing that game primarily, but I feel like it needs to be here as I'm talking about VC, IV and SA, not only VC.

 

I said this in the Unpopular Opinions topic, but I feel like my point did not get enough attention and I spent so long typing it out, that I would hate if my work went to waste. As a result, most of what I say here is just copypasted from there.

 

Anyway, why do people on these forums act like VC is as mature as IV? It makes no sense.

 

I'm sorry, but how is that game mature? The start, maybe, but 98% of it? No. It's not mature at all. A YT channel (video link down below) even claimed VC had the best  GTA story due to it being "All fun, no drama".

 

I mean, Tommy literally doesn't give a sh*t about anyone, and never really gets upset over anyone's demise. The only time he does show sadness is when he realizes Lance is a traitor. Not only that, but he happily kills without too many questions.

 

I'll admit, maybe the start is pretty serious, but once Tommy gets some money, he enjoys a luxurious life of crime and infamy. He only works to get money for himself (for most of the game), and doesn't look like the guy to happily share his money. 

 

I honestly don't see why people act like this game's story is amazing and breathtaking. It's literally a rip-off of Scarface. Speaking of which, why don't we talk about the movie? The movie actually has mature themes. Tony Montana is rich and could not give a f*ck about almost anyone, but despite his wealth and fame, he's unhappy. No matter how much money he has, Tony was always a depressed coke addict. Towards the end, he loses his friends, his lover due to his actions, his sister (the only person he cared about hence his overprotective nature of her), and his henchmen. He manages to gun down all of Sosa' men like a badass, but dies due to his boastfulness, getting shotgunned by some assassin. No matter how much money, power, and men he had, he still died like a bitch because of his cockiness and reckless actions. 

 

Now lets compare the movie to the game. Tommy, like Tony, has alot of power and money, but unlike Tony, Tommy prevails in the end. He survives an impossible shootout, and never learns any valuable moral lessons. He never learns to be a better person, and only loses some friend who backstabbed him. He never changes his character and remains a violent kingpin.

 

Its also weird that people will put this game in the mature category, yet leave out SA. No matter how much you whine, cry and complain, SA actually has mature elements. Yes, the game's story is known for being somewhat over-the-top in a few areas, as well as light-hearted at times, yet the game actually puts us in serious situations. From your mother dying, being forced to lead a weak gang, being betrayed by childhood friends, eventually killing said friends, and attempting to resurrect the struggling gang later on, the game almost always gives us sh*tty challenges to face. Look, I'm not trying to act like SA has a tearful and heart-gripping story, but CJ faces far more challenges during the game, not only the ones above.The only times Tommy realizes he's in deep sh*t is when he gets set up at the start, and gets betrayed in the end. Funnily enough, the people who call this game mature also dislike SA.

 

People will always bring up how stupid Deconstruction is, and how over-the-top Green Goo is, (I believe these claims for these missions), yet ignore how stupid "Sir Yes Sir"  and "Messing with the Man" are. A mission which involves you burying alive a dude in sh*t for dissing your sister may be stupid, but try defending a mission where you steal a f*cking tank, in broad daylight, in front of soldiers, in the middle of the city, or a mission which encourages you to kill innocents to look "badass" (the mission is timed, so unless someone is fighting tooth and nail to ensure that Tommy isn't killing innocents, I think many would just kill peds to try and get the mission over and done with). 

 

It's also unfair people claim SA is extremely silly. OK, maybe if you get rid of Deconstruction and Green Goo, then people won't really consider the game "silly". The game has many missions, yet only 5% of the missions are either stupid (narrative-wise) or too over-the-top. It's unfair to judge a game's missions based on a minuscule number of them. Imagine claiming that VC is bad based on the mission Demolition Man. That would be unfair. Funnily enough, SA isn't the only game to suffer from this mission generalization; V's missions are also ridiculed based on Masks, Boiler Suits and "Did Somebody Say Yoga?", which make up around 2% of the missions (there are some crazy missions, but more people call the game silly than over-the-top).

 

If you think I'm bashing the story, I'm not. Despite it ripping off Scarface, I enjoyed it years ago and still do. The story is flawed, but I still enjoy replaying the game again and again. 

 

If anything, the only GTAs that have a mature theme fully throughout are IV, TLAD, and III. VC, SA and V do have some serious moments, but they really have all-round light-hearted stories.

 

By the way, this is not a rant topic; I just want answers to why people on these forums label VC as gritty and mature as IV.

 

Link:

Spoiler

 

Go to 9:24

 

Edited by DirtCheap

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SonOfLiberty

This sounds more like "Why is San Andreas bashed for being silly and not praised for being mature?" moreso than questioning why Vice City's seen as mature as GTA IV *shrugs*.

 

Anyway with regards to missions like "Sir Yes Sir" and "Messing With The Man" of course when you look at all those missions purely from a real world logic standpoint they come across as silly, but then again how many missions can you think of throughout the series would make much sense in the real world? 

 

To me I see missions like "Deconstruction" and "Green Goo" getting sh*t because CJ's character doesn't fit either situation. Especially in Deconstruction where most people take more of an issue with CJ's paper thin motivations moreso than the mission itself. I agree stealing a tank in broad daylight or killing innocents might seem a bit absurd, but no one can deny Tommy is what he is and as 1 dimensional as he is he doesn't flip flop around. 

 

As flawed as Vice City's story is I don't think R*'s goal was to ever make it a game where Tommy was supposed to learn valuable life lessons. Then again I see this as being a pretty subjective thing. Some people might not care that San Andreas tries to be "mature" like CJ dealing with the loss of his mother or whatever. It could also come down to something as people liking the fact Tommy's more of a hardened criminal and it feels more "mature" to them.

 

I'm obviously a fan of both Vice City and GTA IV, but I don't really regard Vice City as being as "mature" necessarily, but it's definitely not as try hard and all over the place as San Andreas is.

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DirtCheap
31 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

This sounds more like "Why is San Andreas bashed for being silly and not praised for being mature?" moreso than questioning why Vice City's seen as mature as GTA IV *shrugs*.

 

Well, yes but actually no. I did admit SA is pretty over-the-top, and I can see why people would assume it for being silly, but I'm really questioning why people would see VC as mature, and listed a few examples on why saying that VC is mature is absurd.

 

37 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

Anyway with regards to missions like "Sir Yes Sir" and "Messing With The Man" of course when you look at all those missions purely from a real world logic standpoint they come across as silly, but then again how many missions can you think of throughout the series would make much sense in the real world? 

 

I can agree on this part, as many GTA missions would look stupid if seen from a real-world standpoint. However, I named these two missions as people give SA too much grief. Deconstruction has a pretty stupid plot I'll admit, but it confuses me when people see CJ as violent, yet ignore it when Tommy guns down citizens to look badass. To me, Deconstruction has a stupid plot, but it's *slightly* more understandable. Killing some trash-talker makes more sense than shooting peds to impress some bikers. And the tank mission gets a mention because people whine about CJ stealing a jet, yet turn a blind eye to Tommy stealing a tank  in broad daylight, in front of soldiers, in the middle of the city (Vertical Bird tries to make itself somewhat realistic as CJ has to sneak onto the aircraft carrier, shut off the SAMs, fight off some fighter jets, and he almost sh*ts himself; compare that to Tommy stealing a tank without much question, and him barely getting any attention from it, despite doing it in broad daylight, in front of soldiers, in the middle of the city)

 

51 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

To me I see missions like "Deconstruction" and "Green Goo" getting sh*t because CJ's character doesn't fit either situation. Especially in Deconstruction where most people take more of an issue with CJ's paper thin motivations moreso than the mission itself. I agree stealing a tank in broad daylight or killing innocents might seem a bit absurd, but no one can deny Tommy is what he is and as 1 dimensional as he is he doesn't flip flop around. 

 

I know why Deconstruction gets sh*t, CJ just does something so out-of-character, that I can't even comprehend the mission's stupidity. However, as I said above, I just see it unfair when people claim CJ is violent, when Tommy is even more batsh*t insane.

 

1 hour ago, SonOfLiberty said:

As flawed as Vice City's story is I don't think R*'s goal was to ever make it a game where Tommy was supposed to learn valuable life lessons. Then again I see this as being a pretty subjective thing. Some people might not care that San Andreas tries to be "mature" like CJ dealing with the loss of his mother or whatever. It could also come down to something as people liking the fact Tommy's more of a hardened criminal and it feels more "mature" to them.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but like I said in my OP, CJ faces alot of crap, yet people on this forum act like VC is mature all around, when I could only find 2 instances of the game being serious. Tommy being more hardened isn't really mature IMO, it just shows the man doesn't give a f*ck at all. Also, I know that making a mature story wasn't R*'s goal for VC. I just was mentioning how Scarface is mature, despite the over-the-top violence, and how VC isn't even close to mature.

 

1 hour ago, SonOfLiberty said:

I'm obviously a fan of both Vice City and GTA IV, but I don't really regard Vice City as being as "mature" necessarily, but it's definitely not as try hard and all over the place as San Andreas is.

 

Well at least you're not one of those guys on these forums who acts like VC is as gritty as IV. I can agree that SA is a bit all over the place, but I wouldn't say it's try hard.

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SonOfLiberty
4 hours ago, DirtCheap said:

I can agree on this part, as many GTA missions would look stupid if seen from a real-world standpoint. However, I named these two missions as people give SA too much grief. Deconstruction has a pretty stupid plot I'll admit, but it confuses me when people see CJ as violent, yet ignore it when Tommy guns down citizens to look badass. To me, Deconstruction has a stupid plot, but it's *slightly* more understandable. Killing some trash-talker makes more sense than shooting peds to impress some bikers. And the tank mission gets a mention because people whine about CJ stealing a jet, yet turn a blind eye to Tommy stealing a tank  in broad daylight, in front of soldiers, in the middle of the city (Vertical Bird tries to make itself somewhat realistic as CJ has to sneak onto the aircraft carrier, shut off the SAMs, fight off some fighter jets, and he almost sh*ts himself; compare that to Tommy stealing a tank without much question, and him barely getting any attention from it, despite doing it in broad daylight, in front of soldiers, in the middle of the city)

I don't think it's CJ being violent necessarily that people don't like. From all the years I've been on this forum from what I gather is some people just don't like CJ"s "inconsistency" which is a fair criticism if you ask me. In some situations he's passive and in others he flips his lid over the slightest thing (Like Deconstruction). To me I feel this is a consequence that San Andreas was supposed to have multiple protagonists at one time and since that idea was scrapped they shoe horned everything into CJ's character.  

 

Tommy on the other hand just seems to have a one size fits all kind of approach (if you get what I'm saying). Seeing as Vice City was the first GTA to have a properly voiced protagonist R* really weren't thinking of a more human character which they later realised with Niko. Tommy's overall character even if lacking depth to most later protagonists is atleast consistent with a lot of actions he does. It's strange IMO when people take issue "Messing With The Man" though as it's just typical GTA fare in mission form. I bet most people spend their time doing that in free roam anyway.

 

Sure you can say it doesn't have much of a point other than to boost Tommy's ego, but I just think the idea of such a mission is a strange one to ruffles anyone's feathers really whereas seeing CJ lose his cool for something as minor as someone trash talking towards his sister and then trying to bury them alive in concrete was a bit of a "WTF?" moment playing the game for the first time he never showed a tendency like that in any of the other missions. 

 

Again with stealing the tank I agree it's a silly premise when you really think about it, but I also think this shows how incredibly brazen and "I don't give a f*ck" Tommy is that he literally has the balls to steal a tank in broad daylight and doesn't wait around too long. 

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mde2

What answer are you expecting that's not "people think it's mature because it's their preference" or whatever. Like Scarface is an over-the-top macho 80's crime fantasy so it's not like any other medium that uses it for inspiration is going to be to be straying too far away from that description, Vice City included.

 

Also I've never seen a single person ever say that Vice City is more mature than SA, are you sure it's really as common as you imply it is in this post? Anything pre-GTA IV is usually considered to be pretty OTT.

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DirtCheap
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, SonOfLiberty said:

I don't think it's CJ being violent necessarily that people don't like. From all the years I've been on this forum from what I gather is some people just don't like CJ"s "inconsistency" which is a fair criticism if you ask me. In some situations he's passive and in others he flips his lid over the slightest thing (Like Deconstruction). To me I feel this is a consequence that San Andreas was supposed to have multiple protagonists at one time and since that idea was scrapped they shoe horned everything into CJ's character.  

 

Tommy on the other hand just seems to have a one size fits all kind of approach (if you get what I'm saying). Seeing as Vice City was the first GTA to have a properly voiced protagonist R* really weren't thinking of a more human character which they later realised with Niko. Tommy's overall character even if lacking depth to most later protagonists is atleast consistent with a lot of actions he does. It's strange IMO when people take issue "Messing With The Man" though as it's just typical GTA fare in mission form. I bet most people spend their time doing that in free roam anyway.

 

Sure you can say it doesn't have much of a point other than to boost Tommy's ego, but I just think the idea of such a mission is a strange one to ruffles anyone's feathers really whereas seeing CJ lose his cool for something as minor as someone trash talking towards his sister and then trying to bury them alive in concrete was a bit of a "WTF?" moment playing the game for the first time he never showed a tendency like that in any of the other missions. 

 

Again with stealing the tank I agree it's a silly premise when you really think about it, but I also think this shows how incredibly brazen and "I don't give a f*ck" Tommy is that he literally has the balls to steal a tank in broad daylight and doesn't wait around too long. 

 

Like I said, I'm fully aware of why Deconstruction gets hate: CJ acts so out-of-character, that's it stupid. However, "Messing with the Man" is pretty stupid as the mission's plot makes less sense than Deconstruction. The former is timed, so I highly doubt someone would try religiously avoid shooting citizens as doing so wastes time, and fails the mission. From the main GTA games (III, VC, SA, IV and V), it's the only mission that actually encourages you to kill innocents. If anything, Deconstruction does get deserved hate here, yet people ignore the ludicrous plot of that VC mission. 

 

As for the tank mission (CBA to type out the names by this point), I'm glad you see the ridiculousness of it, but I just wanted to point it out as many criticize SA's jet mission, as it is admittedly over-the-top, but as I said in my post, it makes more sense than the tank mission (it is somewhat realistic as CJ has to sneak onto the aircraft carrier, shut off the SAMs, fight off some fighter jets, and he almost sh*ts himself; compare that to Tommy stealing a tank without much question, and him barely getting any attention from it, despite doing it in broad daylight, in front of soldiers, in the middle of the city).

 

 

1 hour ago, mde2 said:

What answer are you expecting that's not "people think it's mature because it's their preference" or whatever. Like Scarface is an over-the-top macho 80's crime fantasy so it's not like any other medium that uses it for inspiration is going to be to be straying too far away from that description, Vice City included.

 

Also I've never seen a single person ever say that Vice City is more mature than SA, are you sure it's really as common as you imply it is in this post? Anything pre-GTA IV is usually considered to be pretty OTT.

 

Someone saying "it's my preference" would be a piss-poor explanation to why VC is considered "mature". There has to be a reason people see huge comparisons to VC and IV's stories.

 

Also, if you don't believe me saying that people on this forum actually believe VC is mature, look up gritty/mature/grounded on this forum (the GTA series one), and after scroling past my arguing in the Unpopular Opinions (LOL), you're bound to find at least a few examples of this type of nonsense by the last page. I can't find it, but there was a page discussing which GTAs are serious, and which ones are fun, and low and behold, many gushed about VC being "gritty", "mature", and "serious". If you don't understand why I believe those words have nothing to do with VC, just read through my whole OP, and then and try and defend the game.

 

 

 

 

Also, to everyone, I'm not trying to start an SA vs VC war or an SA vs IV war. So please don't be elitists and get this topic locked.

Edited by DirtCheap

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SonOfLiberty
5 minutes ago, DirtCheap said:

Also, to everyone, I'm not trying to start an SA vs VC war or an SA vs IV war. So please don't be elitists and get this topic locked.

Don't worry. I'll be watching this thread like a Hawk. 

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, mde2 said:

 

 

Also I've never seen a single person ever say that Vice City is more mature than SA, are you sure it's really as common as you imply it is in this post? Anything pre-GTA IV is usually considered to be pretty OTT.

I did. But even though I consider VC to have a more mature (or maybe just slightly less silly and OTT as well as more singularly crime focused) feel than SA, I still consider them both to be pretty lighthearted. Despite what OP thinks I certainly didn't say VC is as mature as IV and I don't believe anyone else did either.

 

I believe that VC and IV share some elements that make a lot of people tend to favour these two and that SA and V share some elements that make a lot of other people tend to favour those two, that's about it. 

 

OP you know that how over the top the missions are isn't the only way to judge how mature or how serious/lighthearted a game is right? It's about the whole tone of the storyline and the writing/dialogue/humour too.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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ChengizVlad09
Posted (edited)

@DirtCheap

 

Let me put it in simple terms, that isn't the case most definitely, but it might seem that way, I don't blame you. That's the beauty of 3DU games, especially Vice City. They have that amazing ability to appear so convincing in their narrative that you can easily get carried away thinking they are somehow serious and mature, which they most certainly aren't. Their stories are so beautifully exaggerated and pulled through bunch of popular culture references, making it all appear like one huge blockbuster of sorts. But, unlike HDU games, Vice has no intentions of being a movie, because it's already more than that. It's trying to be an awesome game, and boy does it succeed.

 

I couldn't be more glad that you actually asked that question, it really does put a smile on my face, since, just like yourself, I've been sort of 'ranting' in vain around the forums about the "dual nature" of the narrative and tied missions of those games - including Vice - that I started thinking I was full of $hit, but your question and impressions of numerous other people confirms otherwise, I guess.

 

It's like a quantum paradox but diametrically opposite; Vice City's narrative and gameplay is just exactly what you want it to be; if you want it to be goofy, you've got it, if you want it to be serious, it's just that. It's like magic. 

Edited by ChengizVlad09

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tranceking26

I think all the 3D era games are less mature than the HD era games but it's hard for me to explain why.

 

If I had kids I'd let them play the 3D era before moving on to the HD or 4K (or whatever era may be out by then!) 

 

I supposed it's personal taste too. The way I see it is, I get to see nice boobies in V and a lame pole dancer in VC lol. 

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DirtCheap
3 hours ago, ChengizVlad09 said:

@DirtCheap

 

Let me put it in simple terms, that isn't the case most definitely, but it might seem that way, I don't blame you. That's the beauty of 3DU games, especially Vice City. They have that amazing ability to appear so convincing in their narrative that you can easily get carried away thinking they are somehow serious and mature, which they most certainly aren't. Their stories are so beautifully exaggerated and pulled through bunch of popular culture references, making it all appear like one huge blockbuster of sorts. But, unlike HDU games, Vice has no intentions of being a movie, because it's already more than that. It's trying to be an awesome game, and boy does it succeed.

 

I couldn't be more glad that you actually asked that question, it really does put a smile on my face, since, just like yourself, I've been sort of 'ranting' in vain around the forums about the "dual nature" of the narrative and tied missions of those games - including Vice - that I started thinking I was full of $hit, but your question and impressions of numerous other people confirms otherwise, I guess.

 

It's like a quantum paradox but diametrically opposite; Vice City's narrative and gameplay is just exactly what you want it to be; if you want it to be goofy, you've got it, if you want it to be serious, it's just that. It's like magic. 

 

In a way, I see where you are coming from, but totally agree. VC is meant to be R*'s take on 80's Miami Drug War. The story may not be intricate, yet it has many great moments, that, if you look at it in some ways, the game's background hides some secrets. I wouldn't go as far as calling it "mature" or "gritty", but at least you can see where I'm coming from.

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