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Mysterious hero

Why did everyone think it was a bank robbery?

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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)

There seems to be a large group of people who claimed that RDR2 retconned the robbery John got shot and left behind on. Those people claim that he got shot and left behind during a botched bank robbery. I have played through RDR1 countless times since it was released and John never once states that it was a bank robbery, all he says was that it was a "robbery" without specifying what type of robbery it was or even if it was botched. Why do people think it was a bank robbery?

 

The most prominent example I can give is the video "Everything Wrong With Red Dead Redemption 2" where the narrator states that John said in RDR1 that he got shot and left for dead during a bank robbery and that the game retcons it to him just getting left behind. There was also a thread on here (I think it was something like "Ideas for the next Red Dead") where a user called Geeknet claims that Edgar Ross mentions that John got shot and left behind during a bank robbery.

Edited by Mysterious hero

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RedDeadJohn

I saw this everything wrong video and i thought about this retcon thing maybe by bank robbery they mean Saint Denis heist when John was captured and left behind. John probably meant that he was left for dead in the last train robbery.

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XenoJiiva

I played through RDR1 just before the release of the second one. I don't know when/if it was mentioned in the game or why I thought of it but long before that mission in RDR2, I knew it would of been a train robbery. It was something fresh in my mind still but I can't remember where I heard it. 

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Mysterious hero
6 hours ago, RedDeadJohn said:

I saw this everything wrong video and i thought about this retcon thing maybe by bank robbery they mean Saint Denis heist when John was captured and left behind. John probably meant that he was left for dead in the last train robbery.

I think you misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't saying John was shot and left for dead during a bank robbery, I'm asking why the fandom thought it was a botched bank robbery and why they are calling out a retcon that isn't even true. In RDR1, John NEVER says anything about a botched bank robbery. Ironically, this makes a continuity error. Don't you think that John would tell Landon Ricketts that he was left for dead twice?

 

5 hours ago, XenoJiiva said:

I played through RDR1 just before the release of the second one. I don't know when/if it was mentioned in the game or why I thought of it but long before that mission in RDR2, I knew it would of been a train robbery. It was something fresh in my mind still but I can't remember where I heard it. 

In the Game Of The Year Guide for RDR1, it's implied that John got shot and left for dead during a train robbery. Maybe you heard it from that?

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Domand

I remember seeing it said on the wiki that it was a bank robbery. I think everyone kinda caught on and assumed it was. Same as how it was implied John was left for dead in 1906 but that wasn’t outright confirmed, but people still figured it was 1906.

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Cutter De Blanc

I remember there being some interchange between John and Ross where Ross is like "You robbed forty banks" and John is like, "They told us there was a prize if we got to fifty"

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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Domand said:

I remember seeing it said on the wiki that it was a bank robbery. I think everyone kinda caught on and assumed it was. Same as how it was implied John was left for dead in 1906 but that wasn’t outright confirmed, but people still figured it was 1906.

Unfortunately, people think the wiki is never wrong or spreads false information. There's a reason why its called the fandom wiki. I know the wiki said it was a bank robbery, but why do people keep saying that John said it was a bank robbery?  John only specified it as a "robbery". He never specifies what type of robbery he got shot and left behind on. 

 

5 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

I remember there being some interchange between John and Ross where Ross is like "You robbed forty banks" and John is like, "They told us there was a prize if we got to fifty"

Ok. Don't see how this has anything to do with the robbery.

Edited by Mysterious hero

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JupeShot92
Posted (edited)

There is an article in a newspaper in the first game that says Dutch was thought to have died in a fire during a botched bank robbery in 1906. I guess that people just assumed that it was same robbery John got shot on. 

 

We're never really given a clear answer about how and when it happened in the first game. The strange man mentions that John got shot on the boat robbery where Dutch shot Heidi McCourt so I always assumed that was how it happened but then the official guide says that he left the gang "after the killing on the train" and I guess that's the version they went with in RDR2. 

Edited by JupeShot92

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Mysterious hero
1 hour ago, JupeShot92 said:

There is an article in a newspaper in the first game that says Dutch was thought to have died in a fire during a botched bank robbery in 1906. I guess that people just assumed that it was same robbery John got shot on. 

 

We're never really given a clear answer about how and when it happened in the first game. The strange man mentions that John got shot on the boat robbery where Dutch shot Heidi McCourt so I always assumed that was how it happened but then the official guide says that he left the gang "after the killing on the train" and I guess that's the version they went with in RDR2. 

It actually says "Dutch was thought to have perished in a fire following a bungled robbery in 1906".  Unfortunately, People misread it as bank robbery.

 

It seems odd that R* changed robbery he got shot on. They imply it was the Ferry Raid, but then sometime during the writing process for Red Dead 2, they changed it to be a train robbery. It's pretty sloppy how they retconned it, it's like, Javier mentions "Mac, Davey, Jenny and John got shot" and you see the bandaged bullet hole on John's arm, then it's never mentioned again. It now seems odd that The Strange Man would point out that John was shot during the Ferry Raid, even though it didn't seem to be a big deal in-universe.

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JupeShot92
Posted (edited)

 

13 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

It actually says "Dutch was thought to have perished in a fire following a bungled robbery in 1906".  Unfortunately, People misread it as bank robbery.

 

It seems odd that R* changed robbery he got shot on. They imply it was the Ferry Raid, but then sometime during the writing process for Red Dead 2, they changed it to be a train robbery. It's pretty sloppy how they retconned it, it's like, Javier mentions "Mac, Davey, Jenny and John got shot" and you see the bandaged bullet hole on John's arm, then it's never mentioned again. It now seems odd that The Strange Man would point out that John was shot during the Ferry Raid, even though it didn't seem to be a big deal in-universe.

Yeah it's weird, I guess they wanted to put the boat robbery at the beginning so that Dutch's killing of Heidi Mccourt would be something that would be hanging over the gang for the entire game and they needed John's exodus from the gang to be at the end and so they changed it.

 

It has a negative effect on the story though as it's not believable to me that John was sent out to scout alone not long after he was shot but Charles was told to stay behind even though he only had a burnt hand. It would've mad sense if he was already questioning Dutch at that point but he doesn't start questioning him until Arthur puts the idea in his head. 

Edited by JupeShot92

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Mysterious hero
1 hour ago, JupeShot92 said:

It has a negative effect on the story though as it's not believable to me that John was sent out to scout alone not long after he was shot but Charles was told to stay behind even though he only had a burnt hand. It would've mad sense if he was already questioning Dutch at that point but he doesn't start questioning him until Arthur puts the idea in his head. 

I have no idea why Dutch thought sending John out scouting was a good idea. He could've sent Bill, Javier, Lenny or Charles out scouting or even Dutch himself could have went out, but they instead send the man with a bullet in his arm. I actually mentioned this in one of my threads and people are like "Well, it could've been a minor injury" even though getting shot in the arm isn't just a "minor injury". Poor retcon and bad writing, I would say.

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Alexlecj
4 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

I have no idea why Dutch thought sending John out scouting was a good idea. He could've sent Bill, Javier, Lenny or Charles out scouting or even Dutch himself could have went out, but they instead send the man with a bullet in his arm. I actually mentioned this in one of my threads and people are like "Well, it could've been a minor injury" even though getting shot in the arm isn't just a "minor injury". Poor retcon and bad writing, I would say.

What's wrong with what R* did?

 

Strange Man : Are you? Do you remember Heidi McCourt's face?
John Marston : Who?

Strange Man : She was a girl Dutch van der Linde shot in the head on that raid on the ferry a few years back. Same one you got shot on. Pretty girl... until her eye was hanging out by a thread of tendon, and her brain was plastered over a wall.

 

Seems a pretty good depiction of the event to me.

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JupeShot92
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Alexlecj said:

What's wrong with what R* did?

 

Strange Man : Are you? Do you remember Heidi McCourt's face?
John Marston : Who?

Strange Man : She was a girl Dutch van der Linde shot in the head on that raid on the ferry a few years back. Same one you got shot on. Pretty girl... until her eye was hanging out by a thread of tendon, and her brain was plastered over a wall.

 

Seems a pretty good depiction of the event to me.

It's the 'same one you got shot on' part. Back then it seemed to imply that the ferry robbery was when John was shot and left for dead as there were no other indicators in the first game of when else it might have been. They changed it to a train robbery in 2 but they made it so that John was shot on the boat as well so as not to contradict the strange man's line from the first game, but then they had John go off scouting on his own even though he had just been shot. 

Edited by JupeShot92

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Mysterious hero
3 minutes ago, Alexlecj said:

What's wrong with what R* did?

 

Strange Man : Are you? Do you remember Heidi McCourt's face?
John Marston : Who?

Strange Man : She was a girl Dutch van der Linde shot in the head on that raid on the ferry a few years back. Same one you got shot on. Pretty girl... until her eye was hanging out by a thread of tendon, and her brain was plastered over a wall.

 

Seems a pretty good depiction of the event to me.

Back in the day, we had zero reason to assume that the Ferry Robbery and the robbery John got shot on and left behind on were two different events. I mean, why would R* make the Strange Man say "same on you got shot on" if it wasn't to articulate that it was the same robbery?  They changed the robbery at some point during RDR2 writing to being a train robbery. Now John getting shot during the Ferry Raid is mostly ignored, except a throwaway line by Javier.

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Alexlecj
8 hours ago, JupeShot92 said:

It's the 'same one you got shot on' part. Back then it seemed to imply that the ferry robbery was when John was shot and left for dead as there were no other indicators in the first game of when else it might have been. They changed it to a train robbery in 2 but they made it so that John was shot on the boat as well so as not to contradict the strange man's line from the first game, but then they had John go off scouting on his own even though he had just been shot. 

RDR told us that John was shot on a ferry robbery where Dutch killed a woman named Heidi McCourt, and also told us that John was shot and left for dead on an unspecified robbery.

 

It has been open for interpretation.

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JupeShot92
2 hours ago, Alexlecj said:

RDR told us that John was shot on a ferry robbery where Dutch killed a woman named Heidi McCourt, and also told us that John was shot and left for dead on an unspecified robbery.

 

It has been open for interpretation.

It was open to interpretation but I still think it was a retcon and the reason they changed it was because they wanted Heidi Mccourt to die at the beginning but still wanted to keep John in the gang until the end of the game. Unfortunately they still had to include the detail of John being shot when Heidi was shot because it was mentioned in the first game, which led to the unbelievable scenario that Dutch would send John who he loves like a son alone up a mountain with a bullet hole in his arm while telling Charles, an expert tracker who he has only know for six months to stay behind just because he had a burnt hand. They could have solved the whole thing by either put the boat robbery at the end or just not having Dutch send John scouting but I guess they needed a reason for John to get mauled by wolves. 

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Mysterious hero
7 hours ago, Alexlecj said:

RDR told us that John was shot on a ferry robbery where Dutch killed a woman named Heidi McCourt, and also told us that John was shot and left for dead on an unspecified robbery.

 

It has been open for interpretation.

I actually had an argument with another user about this in one of my threads. He mentioned that this isn't a retcon because these two event were never directly specified to be the same event. It was a good point he made. However, it's a retcon from a writers point of view, since it's very clear that the Ferry job was meant to be John's last heist. Again, "same one you got shot on". If R* didn't want to imply that these two weren't the same heist they could've just written the Strange Man's line as "She was a girl Dutch Van Der Linde shot in the head on that raid on the ferry a few years back..... pretty girl, until her eye was hanging out from a thread of tendon and her brains plastered over a wall."

 

5 hours ago, JupeShot92 said:

It was open to interpretation but I still think it was a retcon and the reason they changed it was because they wanted Heidi Mccourt to die at the beginning but still wanted to keep John in the gang until the end of the game. Unfortunately they still had to include the detail of John being shot when Heidi was shot because it was mentioned in the first game, which led to the unbelievable scenario that Dutch would send John who he loves like a son alone up a mountain with a bullet hole in his arm while telling Charles, an expert tracker who he has only know for six months to stay behind just because he had a burnt hand. They could have solved the whole thing by either put the boat robbery at the end or just not having Dutch send John scouting but I guess they needed a reason for John to get mauled by wolves. 

Another way they could've have solved it is making Charles, Lenny, Bill and Javier also have a gunshot wound or some other severe injury. John could've maybe got shot in a area that's unlikely to kill you like the foot or something so that the injury wouldn't be too bad.

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Domand

 I always tried to justify it to myself that Johns gunshot wasn’t to bad somehow and he perhaps insisted on scouting ahead himself. 

 

But definitely a weird choice to send the injured guy out to scout in the middle of a blizzard at night. 

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Mysterious hero
On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:30 AM, Domand said:

 I always tried to justify it to myself that Johns gunshot wasn’t to bad somehow and he perhaps insisted on scouting ahead himself. 

 

But definitely a weird choice to send the injured guy out to scout in the middle of a blizzard at night. 

Arthur and John's dialogue imply that John insisted that he should go out scouting:

 

Arthur: I told Dutch that you weren't the right man for this.

John: I'm sure you did.

 

That doesn't excuse why Dutch would send a man who is injured from a gunshot wound. I guess he wouldn't send Bill because he's dumber than a bag of hammers and he wouldn't send Lenny because he's too young. But what about Charles and Javier? Charles is one of the best trackers in the gang. Sure he has a burnt hand, but if Dutch is willing to send a man with a bullet in his arm, he could probably send a man with a burnt hand. There is no excuse why Dutch doesn't send Javier out scouting, Hosea even says that Arthur and Javier are the two best men they have right now.

 

Again, it's bad writing and a poorly thought-out retcon.

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Domand
36 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

 

 

That doesn't excuse why Dutch would send a man who is injured from a gunshot wound. I guess he wouldn't send Bill because he's dumber than a bag of hammers and he wouldn't send Lenny because he's too young. But what about Charles and Javier? Charles is one of the best trackers in the gang. Sure he has a burnt hand, but if Dutch is willing to send a man with a bullet in his arm, he could probably send a man with a burnt hand. There is no excuse why Dutch doesn't send Javier out scouting, Hosea even says that Arthur and Javier are the two best men they have right now.

 

Again, it's bad writing and a poorly thought-out retcon.

Yep. Who knows what Dutch was thinking. Javier or Lenny probably should’ve been sent out instead.

 

Dutch being Dutch he isn’t always right in the head haha. 

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Mysterious hero
6 hours ago, Domand said:

Yep. Who knows what Dutch was thinking. Javier or Lenny probably should’ve been sent out instead.

 

Dutch being Dutch he isn’t always right in the head haha. 

Well we can't exactly use the excuse of "Dutch is just a bad leader cause he's crazy" since he hasn't gone crazy at this point. The whole point of the game is that Dutch went crazy because of the pressures of the civilized world caving in on the gang and he didn't know what to do. In fact, I would say it's out of character for Dutch to make such a weird decision like that. Nobody, not even Bill, would tell John go out scouting with that gunshot wound. It would make no sense that he tells the guy who burnt his hand to stay behind, but let the guy with an much worse injury go scouting.

 

I wonder why Dartigan didn't point this out in his video. Almost as if that video was rushed...........

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Domand
6 hours ago, Domand said:

 

Dutch being Dutch he isn’t always right in the head haha. 

 

4 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

Well we can't exactly use the excuse of "Dutch is just a bad leader cause he's crazy" since he hasn't gone crazy at this point.

I know. I meant it sarcastically 🙂

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Mysterious hero
3 hours ago, Domand said:

 

I know. I meant it sarcastically 🙂

Yeah I know. I'm just expanding on that point because there will be people who will seriously use "Dutch is a bad leader" as an excuse for bad writing.

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Trademark Da Skydiver
8 hours ago, Mysterious hero said:

Yeah I know. I'm just expanding on that point because there will be people who will seriously use "Dutch is a bad leader" as an excuse for bad writing.

“Bad writing” lol lets see you do a better job at it then 

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Alexlecj

Dutch sending John scouting out ahead isn't that far-fetched. We don't know how terrible the gun wound was, but we know from the last set of missions in chapter 6 that John knows to handle pain very well, climbing caves and fighting Pinkertons like a natural. And he did that in a single day.

Now, imagine the state of John's health weeks after the Blackwater debacle. Should be able to scout out, even on a blizzard.

 

I might add that while clearly unfit, he wanted to help robbing Leviticus Cornwall's private car. He really wanted to please Dutch, and Dutch really wanted to be pleased. He could have insisted on scouting out ahead.

 

(From Arthur's Journal when setting up camp in Colter)

"We have been running for weeks, I mean running more than usual. The job they was pulling in Blackwater, robbing that ferry, it turned into a disaster."

 

(From Who The Hell Is Leviticus Cornwall?)

Dutch van der Linde : Arthur... I think it's time for the train.
John Marston : You want me to come?
Dutch van der Linde : Of course I do, but... look at you.
John Marston : I was always ugly, Dutch... it's just a scratch.
Dutch van der Linde : Lie still, son.

 

(From The Sheep and the Goats)

Arthur Morgan : So... feeling better? How's the scar?
John Marston : I heal pretty fast.
Arthur Morgan : Lucky you.

 

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Cutter De Blanc
On 7/1/2019 at 11:40 PM, Mysterious hero said:

Ok. Don't see how this has anything to do with the robbery.

They were famous for robbing banks, i figure thats why we kind of assumed it was a bank job

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Mysterious hero
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

They were famous for robbing banks, i figure thats why we kind of assumed it was a bank job

So it's a case of inductive thinking?

The gang was known to have robbed from banks + John was shot and left for dead during an unspecified robbery = John was shot and left for dead during a bank robbery.

 

That seems like a plausible explanation, along with the newspaper about Dutch (people misreading bungled robbery as bank robbery). However, I'm still confused on why people keep claiming that Marston himself said that it was a bank job even though he never stated it to be.

Edited by Mysterious hero

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Mysterious hero
10 hours ago, Alexlecj said:

Dutch sending John scouting out ahead isn't that far-fetched. We don't know how terrible the gun wound was, but we know from the last set of missions in chapter 6 that John knows to handle pain very well, climbing caves and fighting Pinkertons like a natural. And he did that in a single day.

Now, imagine the state of John's health weeks after the Blackwater debacle. Should be able to scout out, even on a blizzard.

 

I might add that while clearly unfit, he wanted to help robbing Leviticus Cornwall's private car. He really wanted to please Dutch, and Dutch really wanted to be pleased. He could have insisted on scouting out ahead.

 

(From Arthur's Journal when setting up camp in Colter)

"We have been running for weeks, I mean running more than usual. The job they was pulling in Blackwater, robbing that ferry, it turned into a disaster."

 

(From Who The Hell Is Leviticus Cornwall?)

Dutch van der Linde : Arthur... I think it's time for the train.
John Marston : You want me to come?
Dutch van der Linde : Of course I do, but... look at you.
John Marston : I was always ugly, Dutch... it's just a scratch.
Dutch van der Linde : Lie still, son.

 

(From The Sheep and the Goats)

Arthur Morgan : So... feeling better? How's the scar?
John Marston : I heal pretty fast.
Arthur Morgan : Lucky you.

 

Dialogue between Arthur and John does indeed imply that John willingly went out scouting. My problem is, why would Dutch allow it? John was one of the most loyal members of the gang, next to Arthur. Sending an injured man out scouting, especially if he's extremely loyal to the point of ignoring his wife and son, isn't a good idea. By that point, John was only shot a few days ago, so he's not completely healed yet and isn't gonna shrug off a bullet wound like it's a mosquito bite. If Dutch is willing to send an injured man out scouting, why not Charles? He's the best tracker in the gang, much stronger, more of a fighter and often questions Dutch's philosophy, meaning he's not completely loyal. It seems odd that Dutch is more concerned with Charles burnt hand than John's gunshot wound.

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