🏏 TO GRIEF OR NOT TO GRIEF, a brief guide.

[Lonely-Martin]

5 minutes ago, Jimbatron said:

Amen to this. Not enough people take this attitude in my view, including myself, much as I try, we can always all improve more.

 

Also likwise RE platforms - only so many consoles in the house and copies of GTA I can justify buying though!

Lol, I think if I walked in with an Xbox or a gaming PC, it'd take all of 5 minutes for the Mrs to start googling for a good lawyer.

 

That or a shotgun. Either way, game grief will pale in comparison!

[Xiled]

33 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

What the hell are you even talking about?

R* doesn't allow sell in private to limit how much gta$ you can make per hour.

If they suddenly allowed it in private, changes would naturally have to be made.

They would either nerf the payouts, or prolong the time it takes to produce product, or add in NPCs that will hunt you the entire time.

Or knowing R*, probably all 3...

 

It woudnt make it any faster selling in invite only lobby. Takes the exact same amount of time selling in public solo lobby and public lobby not getting attacked. 

 

Nerfing payout would be dumb as people would sell the cargo in public solo lobby like they currently do. Import export there are those blue sultans that chase you. You still put the same amount of time in. Another thing is associate pay, players dont wanna help cause of the peanuts you paid get plus other people generally suck at helping, failing the most simplistic of tasks.

 

So most stick to doing it solo. If it takes 4 of you 4 hours to fill a ceo crate warehouse when you sell the pay should be equal, that would also encourage you to help. Its dumb you do equal amount of work and only 1 of you gets the big payout. Another problem is players could enter your lobby heist warp to facility and blow you up in less than a minute...

[Smokewood]

27 minutes ago, Xiled said:

It woudnt make it any faster selling in invite only lobby. Takes the exact same amount of time selling in public solo lobby and public lobby not getting attacked. 

 

Nerfing payout would be dumb as people would sell the cargo in public solo lobby like they currently do. Import export there are those blue sultans that chase you. You still put the same amount of time in. Another thing is associate pay, players dont wanna help cause of the peanuts you paid get plus other people generally suck at helping, failing the most simplistic of tasks.

 

So most stick to doing it solo. If it takes 4 of you 4 hours to fill a ceo crate warehouse when you sell the pay should be equal, that would also encourage you to help. Its dumb you do equal amount of work and only 1 of you gets the big payout. Another problem is players could enter your lobby heist warp to facility and blow you up in less than a minute...

Yes it does make it faster...

First off you would never have to wait for the right lobby, secondly no one would ever stop you.

The payout would have to be nerfed by at least 50%

[Yellow Dog with Cone]

12 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

The payout would have to be nerfed by at least 50%

Again, literally no one would bother. It might as well be nerfed to 100% in that case, it's basically the same thing.

[Smokewood]

1 hour ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

Again, literally no one would bother. It might as well be nerfed to 100% in that case, it's basically the same thing.

exactly, and that's one of the reasons it doesn't exist in private

[Xiled]

1 hour ago, Smokewood said:

Yes it does make it faster...

First off you would never have to wait for the right lobby, secondly no one would ever stop you.

The payout would have to be nerfed by at least 50%

And if they nerf the payout they will just do act 2 finale repeat getting $1 million in 15 minutes

 

Who cares if no one can stop you, as if me doing them in private affects you at all. There are dozens and dozens of other lobbies to pvp against people who want to pvp without having to bother anyone elses sale. 

 

If it was a real risk/reward system you wouldnt be able to press x to insta kill a player with homing rockets, who did 7 hours of work to sell an unarmed sell vehicle. It would take effort to take them out. Its like that hunting pack adversary mode, where you have to stop the truck with regular cars as a team. No explosives, no guns, good old fashioned fun. Should be a equal challenge for both sides attacking and being defensive. 

 

Few times I do chase players is with non homing missiles, trying to hit them cause the kill would be satisfying instead of going over hitting x and killing them in 30 seconds...

Edited June 20, 2019 by Xiled

[KazzMajol]

4 hours ago, Jenkiiii said:

This guy totally gets it. Whether I or anyone else agree with the concept of using a VIP job to run riot in the lobby doesn't really matter right now. @KazzMajolis a confident person who knows how he wants to play the game, regardless of whether or not he's branded a griefer. I totally respect that. This is what's known as an honest and open opinion and a valid discussion about griefing in GTA online.

 

 

Thanks for the kind words.    There's honestly not much of anything i'd change about freeroam.   (Some of the mechanics of the 4-players heists and a selection of the other similar jobs, now, well yeah.)   GTAO truly has been a video-game wet dream come true for me in so many ways.     The only thing that really ever seriously aggravates me is when i'm fighting somebody and they're doing the EWO/sticky bombs at their own feet bullsh*t, which for me is kinda when it crosses the line into griefing.    And even then i just magically appear somewhere else, via the teleporting trick, or whatever, and perhaps get some kicks out of making somebody chase me around the map.

 

I'd like to add that for some reason i feel like it would be really excellent if we could all be in an auditorium together, with our consoles and a bunch of 80-inch screens, because i'm sure i'd like to have a few pints with you all, and spend some quality time.    Of course, it'll never happen that way, but in any case, i salute you all.   Cheers!  

[Big Molio]

4 hours ago, Xiled said:

If it was a real risk/reward system you wouldnt be able to press x to insta kill a player with homing rockets, who did 7 hours of work to sell an unarmed sell vehicle. It would take effort to take them out. Its like that hunting pack adversary mode, where you have to stop the truck with regular cars as a team. No explosives, no guns, good old fashioned fun. Should be a equal challenge for both sides attacking and being defensive. 

This is not correct, and a common misunderstanding. It is a risk / reward system because the risk versus reward is proportionate to each party involved.

 

The selling party takes the risk because it is he who stands to make the most profit if the sale is successful.

 

The risk to the attacking party is minimal, but he gains virtually nothing in comparison for his success.

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Big Molio

[HamwithCheese]

But it's still a completely unbalanced system that's totally in favor of the 1 attacker. In fact, you need at least 1 semi competent player, who's motivated by a couple grand here and there and giving money to his boss, to help you out against 1 person, god forbid you factor in multiple attackers.

[Big Molio]

7 minutes ago, HamwithCheese said:

But it's still a completely unbalanced system that's totally in favor of the 1 attacker. In fact, you need at least 1 semi competent player, who's motivated by a couple grand here and there and giving money to his boss, to help you out against 1 person, god forbid you factor in multiple attackers.

To my mind, that was always the idea. To achieve the sales you are meant to be a biker gang, or an organisation, made up of several players. The success stories in public lobbies seem to be the players who head out together as an organised crew providing cover and support for their product.

 

Much of the game-play in GTAO is not designed for solo players.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Big Molio

[Xiled]

Ive already brought up why so many people do it solo, and why its rare to get associates, let alone competent help. Other thing is that I see the griefers target solo selling players 8/10 times. 

 

Seller 100% Risk    100% reward for the $2,200,000 (*if not destroyed, I would say attacked but pressing x is enough to destroy it)

Griefer 0% Risk       1/1,100th the reward for getting that tiny $2000 and dopamine rush

 

How is that balanced? Lets exclude the money for a second, lets just say its the guy delivering the stuff for no value and the griefer destroying them

Seller 100% risk     100% reward for delivering the stuff

Griefer 0% risk        no reward except dopamine rush

Again how is that balanced. 

 

Risk/Reward 

From the newswire

"Buy missions require skill from a coordinated team of Associates to successfully pull off." 

Ive already brought up why so many people do it solo, and why its rare to get associates, let alone competent people to help. Unless you are like the professional with a entire crew that fills a public lobby, or have a bunch of frineds helping, your not gonna find competent people. Other thing is that I see the griefers target selling players 9/10 times normally on the mk2.

 

"Missions are grouped into three categories that increase in difficulty based on how many crates of contraband you intend to purchase and how much risk you are willing to take on. With greater risks – whether from the FIB, LSPD or rival player Organizations – come greater rewards."

 

The "difficulty" is talking about how you can do the 1,2 or 3 crates at a time. Stealing the crates that you bought is a minor risk and Im slightly ok with it if a single cargo gets destroyed. Its only a loss of $6,000. By greater risks, it means the same thing of sourcing the crates. The next part where is shows the different rivals, using rockstars own word, proves the system is not just pvp, as some here think to believe, and is pve as well, also would still work just fine without any pvp. Minimum amount of pve possible for the crates is 50% as a fact again from rockstar newswire. 

 

And the rewards part is talking about selling, but they fail to mention that many hours of work can be destroyed in seconds by anyone and how the game was a vastly different thing in 2016. Main vehicle back than for griefing would have been the hydra. Now you have things like the mk2 and the cannon. And basically all these business updates feel like there made pre 2016 before all the overpowered stuff we have now. 

 

I dare you next time you wanna attack a players cargo, to use an unarmed helicopter and try and ram them off the road, instead of going for the easy fire and forget x pressing homing rockets. They would probably be amazed by what your doing, going after them with a fair fight for once. Was one time a friend made a bet with me about destroying a single post op van with a faggio and micro smg. They had the route 68 bunker. I started as the gas station near the bridge by fort zancudo. They barely made it south of vinewood before I caught up to them and didnt even bother destorying it I caught them before the first drop off...

[Big Molio]

4 hours ago, Xiled said:

Ive already brought up why so many people do it solo, and why its rare to get associates, let alone competent help. Other thing is that I see the griefers target solo selling players 8/10 times. 

 

Seller 100% Risk    100% reward for the $2,200,000 (*if not destroyed, I would say attacked but pressing x is enough to destroy it)

Griefer 0% Risk       1/1,100th the reward for getting that tiny $2000 and dopamine rush

 

How is that balanced? Lets exclude the money for a second, lets just say its the guy delivering the stuff for no value and the griefer destroying them

Seller 100% risk     100% reward for delivering the stuff

Griefer 0% risk        no reward except dopamine rush

Again how is that balanced. 

Huh? It is exactly balanced, because each party's risk is proportionate to his reward for his respective success. That is what risk / reward is.

It would be unbalanced if the attacking party had a risk-free attack, but was able to take all the seller's money. It would also be unbalanced if the seller had a risk-free sale, but kept all the sale money (which is pretty much what you are doing in solo public lobbies)

 

4 hours ago, Xiled said:

I dare you next time you wanna attack a players cargo, to use an unarmed helicopter and try and ram them off the road, instead of going for the easy fire and forget x pressing homing rockets. They would probably be amazed by what your doing, going after them with a fair fight for once. Was one time a friend made a bet with me about destroying a single post op van with a faggio and micro smg. They had the route 68 bunker. I started as the gas station near the bridge by fort zancudo. They barely made it south of vinewood before I caught up to them and didnt even bother destorying it I caught them before the first drop off...

This is how I play, I have said it a few times. More fun for me, more fun for you.

[Smokewood]

7 hours ago, Xiled said:

Ive already brought up why so many people do it solo, and why its rare to get associates, let alone competent help. Other thing is that I see the griefers target solo selling players 8/10 times. 

 

Seller 100% Risk    100% reward for the $2,200,000 (*if not destroyed, I would say attacked but pressing x is enough to destroy it)

Griefer 0% Risk       1/1,100th the reward for getting that tiny $2000 and dopamine rush

 

How is that balanced? Lets exclude the money for a second, lets just say its the guy delivering the stuff for no value and the griefer destroying them

Seller 100% risk     100% reward for delivering the stuff

Griefer 0% risk        no reward except dopamine rush

Again how is that balanced. 

 

Risk/Reward 

From the newswire

"Buy missions require skill from a coordinated team of Associates to successfully pull off." 

Ive already brought up why so many people do it solo, and why its rare to get associates, let alone competent people to help. Unless you are like the professional with a entire crew that fills a public lobby, or have a bunch of frineds helping, your not gonna find competent people. Other thing is that I see the griefers target selling players 9/10 times normally on the mk2.

 

"Missions are grouped into three categories that increase in difficulty based on how many crates of contraband you intend to purchase and how much risk you are willing to take on. With greater risks – whether from the FIB, LSPD or rival player Organizations – come greater rewards."

 

The "difficulty" is talking about how you can do the 1,2 or 3 crates at a time. Stealing the crates that you bought is a minor risk and Im slightly ok with it if a single cargo gets destroyed. Its only a loss of $6,000. By greater risks, it means the same thing of sourcing the crates. The next part where is shows the different rivals, using rockstars own word, proves the system is not just pvp, as some here think to believe, and is pve as well, also would still work just fine without any pvp. Minimum amount of pve possible for the crates is 50% as a fact again from rockstar newswire. 

 

And the rewards part is talking about selling, but they fail to mention that many hours of work can be destroyed in seconds by anyone and how the game was a vastly different thing in 2016. Main vehicle back than for griefing would have been the hydra. Now you have things like the mk2 and the cannon. And basically all these business updates feel like there made pre 2016 before all the overpowered stuff we have now. 

 

I dare you next time you wanna attack a players cargo, to use an unarmed helicopter and try and ram them off the road, instead of going for the easy fire and forget x pressing homing rockets. They would probably be amazed by what your doing, going after them with a fair fight for once. Was one time a friend made a bet with me about destroying a single post op van with a faggio and micro smg. They had the route 68 bunker. I started as the gas station near the bridge by fort zancudo. They barely made it south of vinewood before I caught up to them and didnt even bother destorying it I caught them before the first drop off...

I use a buzzard attack chopper and don't use the missiles, just the machine guns... 

I own a broomstick but rarely use it, it just sits in the TB collecting dust.

[Jenkiiii]

Hi, folks.

 

FYI, I have added a small section to the OP, which might be of interest to some:

 

Heists and similar cooperative modes

Joining a heist and refusing to cooperate with other players or failing to complete mission objectives on purpose is considered borderline griefing. Taking a vehicle to the wrong side of the map or sinking it in the Alamo Sea is unfriendly and antagonistic behaviour, as well as intentially killing yourself or other players. The same goes for freemode delivery missions when helping out another player, such as crashing the Cuban 800 on purpose or dumping a Brickade into a Vinewood swimming pool just because you can, and even on Contact Missions by blowing up the coke/meth or refusing to enter the corona at Gerald's apartment, for example. However, blowing up the payload because you know no better or being an incompetent player in general is not considered borderline griefing.

[Lonely-Martin]

@Jenkiiii I do feel deliberately hampering co-op modes where it's key that a team hits checkpoints or must finish to complete the job is more than borderline griefing.

 

But alas, I am glad heists are mentioned either way as they really can be tedious when players look to play up in these, thanks.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Lonely-Martin

[KazzMajol]

9 hours ago, Xiled said:

its rare to get associates, let alone competent people to help. Unless you are like the professional with a entire crew that fills a public lobby, or have a bunch of frineds helping, your not gonna find competent people.

 

man, i wish you guys could have the same fun i have playing this game.     i have a great time in freemode hiring randoms, over and over again.    kicking down cash from jobs and challenges occasionally is a helluva motivator.     heists/missions?   yeah.   very problematic.    but in freeroam i love hiring up even the low-levels...  ignorance doesn't always = incompetence.    i take the time to message them and try to put them on the right course... self-defense only, until it's not--and let's all make money.   of course, the higher your level, the faster they sign up, too, and that's a fact.

Edited June 21, 2019 by KazzMajol
snarfle

[Agent 14]

38 minutes ago, KazzMajol said:

 

man, i wish you guys could have the same fun i have playing this game.     i have a great time in freemode hiring randoms, over and over again.    kicking down cash from jobs and challenges occasionally is a helluva motivator.     heists/missions?   yeah.   very problematic.    but in freeroam i love hiring up even the low-levels...  ignorance doesn't always = incompetence.    i take the time to message them and try to put them on the right course... self-defense only, until it's not--and let's all make money.   of course, the higher your level, the faster they sign up, too, and that's a fact.

I help low levels but I can't risk a low level handling my sales for two reasons 1. Is that griefers always come for the weak players first and most can't handle themselves meaning cargo lost and 2. Most low levels can't handle a plane so if I get sea plane sales I'm f*cked. 

 

However I will help a low level with their businesses I just can't risk mine with them.

[Yellow Dog with Cone]

7 hours ago, Big Molio said:

Huh? It is exactly balanced, because each party's risk is proportionate to his reward for his respective success. That is what risk / reward is.

Except that for a risk/reward scenario to work properly, it has to be balanced, if it doesn't, you end up with players either avoiding taking risks altogether or gaming the system to get all the rewards without any risk whatsoever.

 

You want games with a proper high risk, high reward aspect? In Rust, Ark, Conan Exiles, DayZ, even Minecraft of all things, you're free to kill ill equipped players to steal their loot, but if you die, you lose everything, sometimes even your whole character, so it's kind of balanced.

 

7 hours ago, Big Molio said:

It would be unbalanced if the attacking party had a risk-free attack, but was able to take all the seller's money.

It wouldn't be risk free if the attacking party could steal the sale for itself, because failing to get away with it is the risk itself.

 

7 hours ago, Big Molio said:

It would also be unbalanced if the seller had a risk-free sale, but kept all the sale money (which is pretty much what you are doing in solo public lobbies)

I agree that it's unbalanced and that it already happens, but this is a symptom of the risk/reward aspect not working properly instead of players wanting to reap all the rewards without any risk (which would happen anyway).

[Agent 14]

I'ma just put everyone that can't be reason with on ignore I'm kinda getting a bit tired of their excuses and asshole responses. Anyone else that want to continue a healthy debate is welcome to quote me.

[Jenkiiii]

28 minutes ago, Agent 14 said:

I'ma just put everyone that can't be reason with on ignore I'm kinda getting a bit tired of their excuses and asshole responses. Anyone else that want to continue a healthy debate is welcome to quote me.

I don't think that's the right way to do things, no offence buddy. I try to listen to everybody because they all have valid opinions, even though some people behave like absolute gits. By filtering people out you become too one tracked, unflexible and single minded.

 

Changing the topic; I'm quite enjoying the 2X freemode events and business battles this week. It gives me more incentive to stay in freemode and run the gauntlet instead of hiding away in quiet or cloud-based lobbies.

 

Cheers!

[Smokewood]

34 minutes ago, Agent 14 said:

I'ma just put everyone that can't be reason with on ignore I'm kinda getting a bit tired of their excuses and asshole responses. Anyone else that want to continue a healthy debate is welcome to quote me.

Awesome - i'm tired of being shamed for playing the game by the rules, especially from the people who cheat and dup cars and use money glitches...

[Yellow Dog with Cone]

1 hour ago, Jenkiiii said:

Changing the topic; I'm quite enjoying the 2X freemode events and business battles this week. It gives me more incentive to stay in freemode and run the gauntlet instead of hiding away in quiet or cloud-based lobbies.

Business Battles are PvP done right, change my mind.

 

Everyone is on a level playing field, no one risk anything and even someone in an Oppressor Mk II doesn't have a 100% chance or success. Sure, I've seen some salty people trying to kill you after you beat them and even some scummy behaviour (like tryhards dropping Business Battle cargo in the middle of a Stand Your Ground to bait people), but for the most part, it's all fun for everyone.

[Big Molio]

1 hour ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

Except that for a risk/reward scenario to work properly, it has to be balanced, if it doesn't, you end up with players either avoiding taking risks altogether or gaming the system to get all the rewards without any risk whatsoever.

It is balanced because the principle is sound. The seller risks his high value goods out in the open against the promise of a very large sale fee if he is successful. The attacker risks little, but gains little if he is successful. Each party’s level of risk is commensurate with their reward value for success.

 

1 hour ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

It wouldn't be risk free if the attacking party could steal the sale for itself, because failing to get away with it is the risk itself.

Not true, because in that scenario if the attacker failed to get away with the goods, he doesn’t forfeit anything, he hasn’t lost because he hasn’t invested in the risk. He is just back to where he started. He didn’t bring anything, he didn’t lose anything, thus he hasn’t risked anything, unlike the seller who would lose his goods.

 

1 hour ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

I agree that it's unbalanced and that it already happens, but this is a symptom of the risk/reward aspect not working properly instead of players wanting to reap all the rewards without any risk (which would happen anyway).

It does work properly, but it is also subject to the human nature in players who have devised an unofficial way to sell virtually risk free, and why wouldn’t they I suppose.

[KazzMajol]

5 hours ago, Agent 14 said:

I help low levels but I can't risk a low level handling my sales for two reasons 1. Is that griefers always come for the weak players first and most can't handle themselves meaning cargo lost and 2. Most low levels can't handle a plane so if I get sea plane sales I'm f*cked. 

 

However I will help a low level with their businesses I just can't risk mine with them.

 

you're 100% right about not trusting them with sales, not right off the jump, anyhow.    of course, my sales only happen when i'm 100% full and i exclusively do the bunker and the nightclub.     MC jobs absolutely drive me out of my mind with how stupid they are.      i have a real-life friend who is on with me quite a lot this year in freeroam (he just started online in early 2019 and he's already over level 420-something--no bullsh*t--talk about somebody who plays too much lol), but we spam the invites to the whole lobby constantly in between VIP/terrorbyte jobs... never do supply missions, never source I/E cars or crates, always fill the gaps with things like point-to-point and most wanted, kick down cash to the lowest level guys... we often go well over a million cash just from jobs in a nice long session, stopping in to buy bunker supplies every so often and keeping the wave rolling to ward off the raids.    it's pretty easy to see when a random player either gets it, or doesn't, and the ones that do often wind up on my friend list.

 

the other thing i do all the time is message people that are coming after us, either because we're running Piracy/Fortified or just griefing, and try to hire them up as well.     doesn't always work, but tryhards are much easier to accept when they're trying hard on your side...

Edited June 21, 2019 by KazzMajol
hrmm

[computertech82]

Pretty sure this topic has out ran its expiration date. Extreme overpowered flying dildos with almost ZERO way to stop them. the flying dildos and weaponized flying cars should have NEVER been put into the game. Far too extreme op, nothing to really talk about now, except rockstar nerfing the crap out of said flying dildo.

[KazzMajol]

not really much ground on the subject that hasn't been covered, except i have to add:   R* please don't nerf my flying dildo jetbike.   i love that stupid flying dildo jetbike.

[0wn996]

I am usually rather relaxed, but it is funny though.
Rockstar creates this game where you get an absolutely insane military arsenal. Tanks, APc's, jet fighters, the lot.
Besides that, they motivate players to go after each other, especially when anybody is on a mission.

But then when you shoot somebody, they go nuts and ask why the heck you are shooting them for no reason and call you a griever.
While i understand people want to make money, it is kind of like starting up call of duty and then moaning that the other players keep shooting at you.

If you play GTA, you should be prepared for people to come after you, that's the whole deal.
Grieving from my perspective is not giving the other player to fight back, so spawnkilling or not letting them come out of a property.
As long as you give the other player the opportunity to withdraw, get out their baddest toys to fight back, or just leave them alone when they ask to be left alone, it's all in the game and i don't qualify it as griefing.
But that's just me.

[Bogdankorolov]

On 6/21/2019 at 6:17 AM, Agent 14 said:

Well is a multiplayer game. What you really expect people to.do?

 

I mean it speak volume of how bad currently the game is when people have to make solo lobbies to sell and miss out on the multiplayer experience altogether due to toxic sale hunting individuals. When people have to tweak their Network settings into making a multiplayer game into a pseudo single player game to make money it speak volumes. You can argue all you want about it but the answer will always remain the same.

Not really, I solo sell and have destroyed attempted griefers and have sometimes had my cargo destroyed... it happens, it’s a game, move along 

On 6/22/2019 at 10:36 AM, computertech82 said:

Pretty sure this topic has out ran its expiration date. Extreme overpowered flying dildos with almost ZERO way to stop them. the flying dildos and weaponized flying cars should have NEVER been put into the game. Far too extreme op, nothing to really talk about now, except rockstar nerfing the crap out of said flying dildo.

Totally disagree, the op mkII makes grinding so easy, as it does with; getting from point a to b, missions and all sorts of other things, why on earth would you want to remove that. 

 

I think people takw this this game way too seriously, like they want it to be a rl simulator or something 

 

look, I don’t get griefing and don’t do it, others do that’s their choice. It should be that cut and dry, either you are or you are not a griefer. It makes the game what it is, sh** happens, keeps you on your toes when selling or sourcing cargo etc. I sometimes even want someone coming after me to make a sale more exciting 

 

at the end of the day.. find a new session and problem solved 

[lll-H-I-M-lll]

On 6/22/2019 at 1:36 AM, computertech82 said:

Pretty sure this topic has out ran its expiration date. Extreme overpowered flying dildos with almost ZERO way to stop them. the flying dildos and weaponized flying cars should have NEVER been put into the game. Far too extreme op, nothing to really talk about now, except rockstar nerfing the crap out of said flying dildo.

The savage makes mk2s look very stupid

[Big Molio]

3 hours ago, Harbz said:

The savage makes mk2s look very stupid

Nah, as soon as you get higher up, almost directly above the Savage, making that ascending evasion manoeuvre useless, it is easy to take them down with the OP2 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Big Molio