Request: Advanced Draw Distance Fog - SA

[ChengizVlad09]

So this could be not only a strange one, but as well a really hard one to pull off, heck, even to explain. Ultimately, I'm pretty sure many could regard this one as totally unnecessary. Anyway, here's how I would try to put all this in a fewest possible words, but still trying to be spot on with explaining things and imagining how it can look and work.

 

Part I

 

We all know there are numerous ways (mods) to turn off the Draw Distance Fog and see the entire map and not only that, but even directly or indirectly adjusting the amount of it in order to make things visible according to ones preferences - how far into the distance we want to see. From my limited modding knowledge, I think there's even a way to tweak the DDF amount directly from the game files, but don't take my word for it.

 

For me personally, DDF plays a huge role in creating the atmosphere and subjectively I really like how objects - such as buildings - are perceived through it at according distances and moreover, it gives a certain sense of scale and makes the environment not to look sterile. Especially when using SkyGFX and PS2 Visuals. In painting, there's even a technique called " sfumato " that is pretty much the same like the general effect and appearance of the DDF. 

 

Objectively, no matter how cool seeing the entire map looks, DDF simply keeps the visual and " structural integrity " of the game and really adds to perceiving the scale of the entire map much bigger than it really is - meaning DDF effect indirectly makes the map look bigger. Downside to this - ofc, next to 'not seeing farther - is that sometimes the objects rendered on the brink of visibilty will somewhat 'flicker' and depending how you move the camera or where exactly are you in regards to DDF effect field and objects, those same objects will be shown impartially, eg; half or some specific parts of the building will be rendered and other will be missing, despite being one object - building.

 

So, basically, what I would like to know is next; is it possible to maintain the original amount of DDF, but still be able to render some farther away and hidden objects in the distance? I know it sounds completely contrary to anything logical and the entire initial purpose of DDF is to hide further away objects so that the system would have less to render in order to be more efficient, but still.

 

Picture speaks a thousand words, so I will post couple of them as soon as I'm able to, in what could be called ' Part 2 ', in order to show the inner workings of how the game renders things with DDF. There is definitely a bit more to it than simply zero-one function.

 

Part II

 

Here's how buildings are rendered:

 

  

 

  

 

 

 

In essence, the best way to see how DDF is working, is by looking at the pictures. When standing closest to the rendered objects - such as buildings - which can be seen in pic 1, all of the details are rendered and the entire building is clearly visible. Moving ever so slightly away from it, the DDF seems to kick in, immediately doing its thing, which is good. Eventually, we'll come to a point where the farthest building will appear as shaded rectangle, just like in the pic 4, still good. But, the moment we begin to go even farther, the main issue of DDF appears: depending on your camera movement, the building will start to appear and disappear - distortion, with some of its parts being visible, while other portions being lost - pic 5. Ultimately, going few in-game meters away, it is finally lost completely.

 

Now, in attempt to think about logical solution for this would be to try and make the game render the furthest buildings in view, just in the same manner it renders them in the moment when they become colored rectangles, but as well to try and force the game to keep rendering them the same for the time we are actually in one of the cities, so that they don't eventually either distort or disappear. In that way, at least it seems to me, we wouldn't have to get rid of the Draw Distance Fog - btw, as I said before, tweaking the amount of it, doesn't come as solution, since even lowering the amount of it, simply eradicates it from certain parts of the map, which isn't the goal here.

 

I'm highly interested to hear your opinions if there is any technical solution for this particular matter, since I'm far from being initiated with the games's inner workings and tech stuff.

 

Cheers!

Edited June 20, 2019 by ChengizVlad09

[ChengizVlad09]

Here's an interesting thing to see as well - skip to 3:42-4:23.

I assume, there's no DDF in IV as it was in SA, but you can definitely see the effect I have in mind when it comes to rendering distant buildings. The gradation of those buildings is clearly present according to their distance - how far they are distant in relation to the viewers perspective. Closer ones will appear with darker tones and the farther ones with somewhat lighter tones. Disappearing building parts are present as well, but that seems a lot more stable and consistent, or there's simply less camera movement. If this could be feasible in technical sense of things, while keeping the original amount of DDF, that would be great! Btw, I'm sure there are some files that control the DDF, other than just timecyc, maybe there lies the key to something.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by ChengizVlad09

[Ash_735]

You could try and balance FarClip values with FogSt values, it's FogSt that adjust that block colour shader part, then of course you could edit the IDE's to increase the draw distance of misc objects/generics, etc, keeping in mind that by default GTA games (3D Era) have the high limit at 299 (300 and over it gets classed as an LOD and loses collisions), but just experiment with those two values until you hit a balance you like and then apply it to the rest of the weather. Here's some proof it is controlled with those values, back when we were messing with it in VCS:

 

[ChengizVlad09]

Hey @Ash_735 thanks so much for getting back to me with such detailed info, it is appreciated. I'll try and edit it all the way you explained. I must admit though, I'm a noob when it comes to modding, but I still have somewhat clear picture of what you eloquently described. As far as I know, FarClip and FogSt values are stored inside the timecyc itself and once I edit them properly I need to set them for every weather pattern inside the timecyc, but I'm not sure about where or how to find or edit IDE's for specific objects you mentioned? I know I can set LOD (Level of Details?) through p2dfx LODLights.ini which contains generic objects, normal objects, etc, etc, but sadly, having that mod messes with DDF and sun dispersion - from SkyGFX - simply by having it installed, even despite disabling the Ground Draw Distance, setting it to 0.

 

Btw, that pic you posted is exactly what I was thinking of how I would like to see objects rendered in the farthest distances, at least in the cities themselves. It kinda looks so artistic and reminds me of the official artworks, which are amazing  I totally understand that ppl want to see everything rendered to the maximum details and that the DDF stands in the way, but for me, not having it, simply ruins the visual concept of the game.

 

Will post my results as soon as possible. Cheers! 

[Ash_735]

Yes, FarClip and FogSt are found inside the timecyc.dat file, sadly the default one is a mess to look at but you might be able to load it into a spreadsheet type programme (Excel, etc) and that way you'll get all the columns lined up properly for you to easily see what number represents what, like this...

 

As for the objects and changing their draw distance via IDE's, you can find them your "Grand Theft Auto San Andreas\data\maps" folder, each folder then contains a map zone/generics and in those you'll find an IDE which will looks like this...

 

The draw distance is the second number from the last, so for the photo above it's the 40's (and that one 45). THIS is the one that will have the most overall close improvement and may cost performance if you set everything to the maximum limit of 299 but hell by this point our computers can handle it. 

[ChengizVlad09]

@Ash_735

 

Haha, I was really thinking hard how to actually imply that I simply cannot fathom all those columns and indistinguishable numbers beneath them inside the timecyc, but I couldn't afford myself to bother you with such trivial questions. Didn't even know how to put it exactly. That explanation definitely cracks the case! What's more, I would also say I didn't see such a plain and so straightforward explanation for such a difficult matter in a long time. Brilliant! 

 

Edit: Forgot to mention, my specs don't exactly scream " monster gaming ", far from it, but I'm pretty sure older core i7 with 2 physical cores and AMD Mobility R260 with 16 gigs of RAM is more than enough - laptop. At least I never use anything "unofficial" or power hungry, just some basic stuff, like visual effects from PS2 or similar, beta stuff, etc, etc. Plus, I'm not pushing it over 30 FPS in order not to brake game's physics.

 

Can't wait to get my hands on it and give it a try, thanks Ash!

Edited June 27, 2019 by ChengizVlad09

[ChengizVlad09]

Here's my first testing:

 

- I managed to paste the timecyc into Excel and align everything properly - well not everything since there are still some numbers after " CloudAlpha " that are unassigned or simply look like they don't have any column above them. Had to use some special form of pasting within advanced options, since simply pasting it doesn't cut it, lol, a bit of word play, so that's EXCELlent  

 

Here's how it looks now:

 

 

I won't mess with those values yet, but as soon as I edit those two, I'll let you know.

 

- I also managed to figure out stuff about IDE's, but sadly changing the value next to last one, just like you explained doesn't do anything in regards to extending the draw distance of that specific object.

   Here's what I did. 

I found the ID number of some specific object; for example Los Santos Tower. It has 4550 ID inside the data/maps/LA/LAn2 IDE file. I tried changing the original ' 220 ' value to 180, 250, 299 and 1299 and none of those values has changed anything about its draw distance, it stays the same. Any thoughts?

 

Btw, to be more specific about my laptop capabilities, I tested it with setting the draw distance to 1300 in LODlights mod and it runs just fine with a constant 30 fps. 

 

Edit: just to add, I've just paid closer attention to numbers under the FarClp and FogSt and the highest number is 255. Is that supposed to be some kind of 32bit address range?

Edit2: Yeah, I probably don't know how to align columns and numbers properly  Using the text import wizard inside the Excel simply doesn't give the desired result. I'll keep messing with it.

Edited June 27, 2019 by ChengizVlad09

[Ash_735]

Some values are for RGB (so will contain 3/4 numbers for RGB/A), some are for floats, etc, if you want a much more detailed breakdown you can read it here: https://gtamods.com/wiki/Time_cycle

 

BUT to help you out now, in San Andreas the default Draw Distance is the number 400/600/800 and the following number after that is the FogSt, so for example when I open up the original SA timecycp.dat in notepad, it's these:

 

As for the IDE one, sounds daft, but you did Save it right as a DAT?  If you put a value over 299 then that building would lose its collision in-game so that'd be a good way to make sure it's right.

[ChengizVlad09]

@Ash_735

 

That's what I needed to hear and see 

 

Heh, I most certainly haven't saved it as DAT, kinda goes along with me being a noob, lol. It was just a simple save, so to say.

BTW, to save it as DAT I assume I have to do following: edit the mentioned value, click on  File " Save As " - select " Save as type " then select " All Files " and add " .dat " to " LAn2 " IDE file and finally save it? That way I'll have ' LAn2 ' both as IDE and DAT.

 

Thanks for getting back to me once again, I will check out the link you've provided in detail asap.

 

Thanks Ash!

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by ChengizVlad09

[ChengizVlad09]

I think it's safe to say there's no way in making buildings and similar objects to spawn more seamlessly through the draw distance fog, instead of seeing them missing the entire parts, popping in and out of existence depending on camera movement - without removing the draw distance fog in the first place. If by any chance someone see this and is skillful and savvy enough to do something in that regards let me know via PM, until then, I would kindly ask moderators to lock this topic. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by ChengizVlad09

[GTAIVisbest]

Has anyone had any luck in getting the draw distance fog to work more "seamlessly"?

Something I've noticed is if one takes an airplane really far up into the sky, buildings below phase into view smoothly, without an ugly jarring line creating pop-in.

 

I thought for sure something as simple as this sort of visual bug would have had a mod made for it by now, but no matter where I look I can't seem to find any solution

 

EDIT: 

I did some more digging and I think I understand The "distance fog" is only at PLAYER level and below So, if you move the distance fog closer or further, it doesn't actually matter, the core issue is that the distance fog itself is only at player level and below

 

A skyscraper's top will be above the player and so there won't be any distance fog at all on this

 

Same thing with distant mountains and stuff, they'll phase in in a super ugly way because they don't have any distance fog on them (even though that's not realistic)

 

The fix would be for someone to modify the game's distance fog to also apply above the player. Not sure if this is even possible, but seeing as how the distance fog isn't stuck at sea level (if you're in a plane, everything below you will be fogged out correctly), it MAY be possible

Edited July 14 by GTAIVisbest