POLL: how open to change are you with GTA?

[Grotti Vigilante]

43 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

It depends on the man and depends on the woman. Not as likely means nothing. Women who are intimidating and who commit violent crime exist. So a GTA character could be one.

 

I just think you place too much importance on physical strength in a GTA protagonist. In reality it's a minor aspect when there's an arsenal of weapons available. None of the V trio were required to fist fight strong opponents to complete their missions and other than Trevor they weren't required to be physically intimidating that often either. They used surprise/stealth and weapons most often. Even the main antagonists of the game (Devin Weston and Steve Haines) aren't physically big and strong. There's other ways to intimidate or to be powerful.

GTA V's characters aren't well written though. I know I've mentioned physical strength, but you seem to be missing the part in which they themselves as people are intimidating. They may not have been required to be physically intimidating, but they, Michael in particular, gave off a vibe that intimidated a lot of people. Michael said to Ron "anymore bullsh*t comes out of your mouth, you'll be learning about my past glories first hand, you understand?". The way he said it combined with the vibe he gave off was enough to shut Ron up and put him in his place. If that had been a woman she'd have had a softer and more feminine voice, and even being the easily intimidated man he is, Ron would more likely have gone further in relation to his interaction with Michael.

 

Devin and Steve weren't strong, but that doesn't make a case for a female protagonist. Devin wasn't intimidating at all and was just an annoying little prick, which is why he is one of the worst antagonist in the series. He's like Catalina in that he has an army of armed men (no coincidence maybe) to do his dirty work, only he was an intolerable and petulant man-child. As for Haines, well, like Tenpenny, had the law behind him and was able to coerce the protagonist through being in possession of information that could have him arrested and put his life at stake. But the antagonist serves a different role to the protagonist, and thus isn't the best comparison. Tenpenny would be a terrible protagonist for reasons I've said about why a corrupt cop protagonist wouldn't work. If he was caught doing half of what CJ did, he'd be done for very quickly. As such, antagonists require different writing aspects than protagonists.

 

Quote

It's about the writing. Maybe a female protagonist wouldn't have worked in a given past GTA game story but that's because that was a story written for that protagonist. It's possible to write an intimidating criminal who is female....movies and TV shows have done it, games have done it and even GTA itself has done it. They exist in real life too. By the same token they could also write a male character who isn't physically big and strong but is still powerful and intimidating. It would just be a different story tailored to that character.

Writing a male character who is physically weak still takes away from the character. Strength plays a part in intimidation whether you like it or not, but even if they're not the strongest they still need to give off the vibe of intimidation to go with it, and that would be very unlikely to happen with a female. I know you said "not as likely means nothing" but it does. Imagine if San Andreas chose to make CJ white. It may not be unknown for white LA gangs to exist like the black ones, but the majority of street gangs in LA are black, and so CJ being black just made sense because it worked better and was more grounded in reality. 

 

Or for an even better example, let's say Tommy Vercetti wasn't of Italian heritage. It's probably not unknown for white people to work for the mob, but most mobsters are Italian-American heritage, so Tommy Vercetti works as a character because he's more grounded in reality story-wise simply because most mobsters are Italian-American, at least where Tommy worked with the Forellis. In the same way, the majority of criminals are men, and so it just works better for the protagonist to be male. Just because it's possible to write a female protagonist doesn't mean it can work, and I seriously doubt it will in GTA's case. 

 

Just like how men have historically competed against other men in nature, it's largely the same in GTA's criminal underworld. Case in point, nobody has given praise to CJ submitting to Catalina, at best they've said it was for the reasons of manipulation so he could earn his money. CJ being a bit of a bitch was one of my issues with him. Notice how some of the most popular protagonists like Niko and Tommy are badass alpha male type characters who take no crap from anyone? That's because they're both good at fighting, have strength, and have a vibe of intimidation whenever they want to give it off. Such things can't be as well written with a female protagonist without it being too unbelievable. Not saying Niko and Tommy are popular because of that, but I think it's part of the reasons.

 

The risks are too great for Rockstar to try and write a female protagonist. It would add nothing to the series and would likely hurt it in some way. Rockstar can just as easily write a female character in GTA whose more of a manipulative kind and uses seduction as a power to get what she wants, but that wouldn't work as a protagonist, because she's not using intimidation and power but rather psychology. Maybe she could just as well act like a lost innocent girl who leads you to a trap where a bunch of men mug you, but the intimidation there is in the crowd, not the individual. It might be a good side or supporting character, but not a main one.

 

EDIT: I think I'd like to just post a reminder here that this is about change in the GTA series, not specifically a debate about female protagonists which has been done several times before. It was a good discussion but I don't wish for the thread to risk being locked. Otherwise I'd be sitting here all night typing away my arguments.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Grotti Vigilante

[billiejoearmstrong8]

I don't think it's as unlikely or difficult for a female character to come off as intimidating and not weak as you say. When CJ was robbing banks with Catalina in SA she seemed pretty damn intimidating on a personal level to me. Likewise Elizabeta was a boss. Obviously because fewer women are involved in crime than men (and therefore fewer are portrayed in GTA) there's been fewer chances to see intimidating female GTA characters. But it's totally do-able imo. If it's done for the right reasons and in the right way (ie because of a desire to create a fresh, interesting and compelling protagonist and story, not to appease anyone) I believe it could work. Whether it's a female protagonist or one of many other ideas I'd rather see them challenge themselves with bold and new ideas than play it safe that's for sure.

Edited June 28, 2019 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Pink Pineapple]

2 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

It's possible to write an intimidating criminal who is female....movies and TV shows have done it

 

Are any of those females on the level of the characters below?

 

 

 

 

[universetwisters]

9 hours ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

Are any of those females on the level of the characters below?

 

 

 

 

 

Get a better argument than cherrypicking

[billiejoearmstrong8]

10 hours ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

Are any of those females on the level of the characters below?

 

 

 

 

 

Are out of shape lame dad chump Michael De Santa or Franklin "no personality and does what he's told" Clinton on the level of any of those characters? Ellen Ripley, The Bride, Sarah Connor....like, strong female characters can exist. Obviously a combo of less women being involved in crime irl and historical and ongoing lack of or crappy writing of female characters in media means there's fewer examples. But the latter is changing. Of course it comes with its own differences and challenges but the idea that it's not possible to write one strong criminal character who is female is just ridiculous.

Edited June 29, 2019 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Pink Pineapple]

23 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

Get a better argument than cherrypicking

 

It wasn't an argument. It was a question. Can you list any female equivalents of the characters I posted? You have a history of dodging questions, so if you're not going to give an appropriate answer, don't waste everyone's time by replying. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

Are out of shape lame dad chump Michael De Santa or Franklin "no personality and does what he's told" Clinton on the level of any of those characters?

 

They're a lot closer than Elizabeta and Catalina.

[universetwisters]

36 minutes ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

It wasn't an argument. It was a question. Can you list any female equivalents of the characters I posted? You have a history of dodging questions, so if you're not going to give an appropriate answer, don't waste everyone's time by replying. .

 

Of course I can’t because you’re asking me to find a female equivalent of Henry Hill. I wanna know what women did to you to where you’re vehemently against them being protagonists in GtA

 

Also dodging questions =/= repeating the same inane argument that video games don’t have to adhere to reality. I repeated it to you several times before and I’ll repeat it another; why is the idea of a female protagonist unrealistic, but all the unrealistic feats you can already do in gta somehow okay?

[TheSantader25]

Well...

This thread's gonna get locked. It was good while it lasted. 

[Zello]

13 hours ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

Are any of those females on the level of the characters below?

 

 

 

 

Felicia Snoop Pearson

 

The actress irl also spent time in jail twice.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Zello

[Beato_dim]

2 hours ago, Pink Pineapple said:

They're a lot closer than Elizabeta and Catalina.

Erm... Like, Michael - maybe, but there's no way Franklin is more badass than Catalina.

[billiejoearmstrong8]

2 hours ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

 

 

They're a lot closer than Elizabeta and Catalina.

They're not protagonists. If they were created as protagonists they could've been written as closer than them, with more to them. If those characters you posted are the standard half of the existing GTA protagonists don't meet it.

 

Most GTA protagonists have some weaknesses that they have to overcome or compensate for in other ways. Michael is getting old and out of shape, is walked over by his family and easily conned by multiple people. Franklin is young and inexperienced and often taken less seriously because of that. Trevor has trouble due to his temper/mental health. A female protagonist would also come with unique weaknesses and issues to overcome. What is the argument, that a badass female characters can't exist? They already do in fiction and real life. There's less in fiction because (as mentioned) there's less women in crime than men irl and there's also a problem with fiction being overly male-centric and sh*tty writing of female characters. But writers are beginning to step up to the plate with better female character inclusion/writing. No reason why GTA couldn't step up too.

Edited June 29, 2019 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Grotti Vigilante]

2 hours ago, TheSantader25 said:

Well...

This thread's gonna get locked. It was good while it lasted. 

Yes people, this guy here is right. Can we try and go back on topic before the thread gets locked for repeating the same old argument of a female protagonist. I’ve given my thoughts, and I’d happily repeat them if it were the right topic (I admit I’m partly why it did go off topic). I’m not the most open to change in GTA and would rather it stuck with the current formula unless there is strong evidence any change would work. 

 

2 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Of course I can’t because you’re asking me to find a female equivalent of Henry Hill. I wanna know what women did to you to where you’re vehemently against them being protagonists in GtA.

He’s barely said anything on the topic and merely asked a question, yet you’re already jumping to the idea that someone hurt him and his arguments are based on emotional turmoil? All that tells me is that you haven’t got much in the way of countering the arguments made and have to resort to making it personal. It adds nothing to the discussion, and as stated above I wish to move away from the specific discussion of a female protagonist before this whole thread gets locked for going too far off topic. It was fine for a small tangent, but it’s getting to nearly a whole page worth.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Grotti Vigilante

[billiejoearmstrong8]

I don't see how this discussion is off topic in any way shape or form. The topic is potential changes in the next GTA, a key potential change is being discussed, and there's nothing to prevent other potential changes also being discussed by anyone who wants to post about them.

Edited June 29, 2019 by billiejoearmstrong8

[Grotti Vigilante]

1 hour ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I don't see how this discussion is off topic in any way shape or form. The topic is potential changes in the next GTA, a key potential change is being discussed, and there's nothing to prevent other potential changes also being discussed by anyone who wants to post about them.

The topic is how open to change people generally are. I don't know how lenient staff are here in regards to how far we can go before it's considered too off-topic, but I do know that there have been many discussions about female protagonists before. Just doing a simple search gives me so many threads about the same issue, and I'm trying to avoid going too far into that specific change in order to keep this thread open. So perhaps now you can understand why I'm exercising such caution. I am sure a mod will tell us when it's going too far off the original topic but I can't be sure. 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Grotti Vigilante

[universetwisters]

7 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

 

 

He’s barely said anything on the topic and merely asked a question, yet you’re already jumping to the idea that someone hurt him and his arguments are based on emotional turmoil? All that tells me is that you haven’t got much in the way of countering the arguments made and have to resort to making it personal. It adds nothing to the discussion, and as stated above I wish to move away from the specific discussion of a female protagonist before this whole thread gets locked for going too far off topic. It was fine for a small tangent, but it’s getting to nearly a whole page worth.

 

 

Thats because every time there’s a mention of a thought of a female protagonist in any thread, he’s not far behind to bring his double standards regarding realism.

 

look at it this way, people say that statistically, more crimes are committed by men, therefore there shouldn’t be female protagonists? What if I said white protagonists in gta is unrealistic when the prison population is made up of more blacks than whites? Who the f*ck cares about statistics it’s a video game just have fun 

[Pink Pineapple]

11 hours ago, universetwisters said:

 

Of course I can’t because you’re asking me to find a female equivalent of Henry Hill. I wanna know what women did to you to where you’re vehemently against them being protagonists in GtA

 

Also dodging questions =/= repeating the same inane argument that video games don’t have to adhere to reality. I repeated it to you several times before and I’ll repeat it another; why is the idea of a female protagonist unrealistic, but all the unrealistic feats you can already do in gta somehow okay?

 

I knew you wouldn't be able to. I also see that, once again, you've had to resort to personal attacks when you get frustrated and are unable to give a proper answer.

 

I've already answered your questions about realism. A female protagonist would make the game more unrealistic, so what's the point of having one? You've never been able to make a case for a female protagonist. You've failed to show any benefit.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Zello said:

Felicia

 

The actress irl also spent time in jail twice.

 

She's not feminine at all. She looks masculine, acts masculine, sounds masculine, and she's even attracted to women. She's as close to being a man as possible without actually being a man. What's the point of having a female protagonist who's basically a smaller and weaker man?

 

 

9 hours ago, Beato_dim said:

Erm... Like, Michael - maybe, but there's no way Franklin is more badass than Catalina.

 

Which one is more believable as a violent criminal?

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

 If those characters you posted are the standard half of the existing GTA protagonists don't meet it.

 

 

That's the standard they're going for. Niko meets it. Tommy meets it. Billy Grey meets it.

 

Not one female character in the game meets it and nobody here has been able to post any female character who meets it. 

[El Penguin Bobo]

thread lock, incoming.

[universetwisters]

Just now, Pink Pineapple said:

 

I knew you wouldn't be able to. I also see that, once again, you've had to resort to personal attacks when you get frustrated and are unable to give a proper answer.

 

I've already answered your questions about realism. A female protagonist would make the game more unrealistic, so what's the point of having one? You've never been able to make a case for a female protagonist. You've failed to show any benefit.

 

Who cares about realism in a game like GTA. I've made several cases for a female protagonist, to which all you've been able to say is "it isn't realistic". Are you telling me that...

 

-Being able to carry 10+ weapons on your person

-Being a white criminal even though the prison population is more black than white

-Being able to survive car crashes at 50+ mph with barely a scratch

-Similar to above, a car still being able to be drivable after several hard crashes and the only damages are cosmetic

-Being able to lose police by driving into a garage and getting your car resprayed while the cops are watching the whole time

-Being able to lose police by changing your shirt

-Being able to get away with any crime in general without any police investigations knocking on your door with a warrant days later

-Being able to drive from sun up to sun down without having to change tires or fill up with gas

 

 

And several other cases pointing to why GTA is unrealistic. Would you be opposed to all of the above being changed with gameplay hindering realistic instances?

*If the answer is yes, then okay you're just a stickler for realism and nothing's wrong with that tbh

*If the answer is no, then why are you imposing sexist double standards to a video game

 

 

[Pink Pineapple]

41 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

I've made several cases for a female protagonist, to which all you've been able to say is "it isn't realistic".

 

 

I've never seen anyone show how a female protagonist would improve the game. What's to gain? Clothing / appearance options and things involving sex appeal? I'm fine with a secondary female character, but for the main protagonist I want a male. In real life and fiction, the baddest, toughest, most intimidating, and most believable criminals are men. That's not sexist, it's reality.

[Grotti Vigilante]

2 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Thats because every time there’s a mention of a thought of a female protagonist in any thread, he’s not far behind to bring his double standards regarding realism.

I admit to not having the knowledge to such past events. I was merely thinking in the confines of this particular thread.

 

Quote

look at it this way, people say that statistically, more crimes are committed by men, therefore there shouldn’t be female protagonists? What if I said white protagonists in gta is unrealistic when the prison population is made up of more blacks than whites? Who the f*ck cares about statistics it’s a video game just have fun 

Depends what kind of crime you're going for. GTA dealing with mobsters like Vice City and Liberty City Stories would require an Italian-American protagonist because of them being the majority of mobsters. Johnny Klebitz was a biker, a good amount of which are white gangs. But in the case of something like CJ, it's a matter of dealing with street gangs in LA, which are mostly black. Going simply by the prison population, it'd be fair to say it'd be more realistic having a black criminal, but it's not as simple as that when dealing with a GTA where you have different types of gangs. When going for something like mobsters or bikers it wouldn't make as much sense to have a black protagonist. I am not aware of a single criminal industry (for need of a better word) dominated by women, let alone one that would fit into GTA.

 

1 hour ago, universetwisters said:

 

Who cares about realism in a game like GTA. I've made several cases for a female protagonist, to which all you've been able to say is "it isn't realistic". Are you telling me that...

 

-Being able to carry 10+ weapons on your person

-Being a white criminal even though the prison population is more black than white

-Being able to survive car crashes at 50+ mph with barely a scratch

-Similar to above, a car still being able to be drivable after several hard crashes and the only damages are cosmetic

-Being able to lose police by driving into a garage and getting your car resprayed while the cops are watching the whole time

-Being able to lose police by changing your shirt

-Being able to get away with any crime in general without any police investigations knocking on your door with a warrant days later

-Being able to drive from sun up to sun down without having to change tires or fill up with gas

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I reckon I could still make a few good counter arguments here. There's certain standards you need for realism since we are making a video game and not a movie, especially when you're dealing with mostly gameplay elements.

 

- Carrying so many weapons in your pocket is more convenient as a player because it would be too tedious to just simply have to go into a stack of weapons to get a specific kind. Red Dead Redemption II did this, and it wasn't very fun or convenient when dealing with a video game because I'd be vulnerable and getting shot all the time.

- I've already addressed the point of the prison population, so I won't bore you with a repeated argument.

- Surviving car crashing at such a speed and being mortally injured would be incredibly annoying too because you'd be constantly dealing with hindrances due to your injuries.

- Losing the police in a Pay N' Spray has already been dealt with in terms of realism because in GTA IV, you had to be hidden from police view in order for it to work. In GTA V, you could only change colour at a mod garage, which were closed when you have a wanted level. So this argument is moot unless Rockstar chooses to go back on it.

- Changing your shirt for the sake of losing the police is a bit silly, but I wouldn't be annoyed if it either got changed or didn't get changed for similar reasons below addressing your other point.

- Being constantly harassed by the police for previous crimes would ruin gameplay because you're constantly being hounded when you're just trying to do a mission. Nobody wants that in a game. We want short term fun when not taking it seriously, and even though it may not be the most realistic, as I said you're dealing with a video game in which there must be a certain suspense of disbelief.

- Driving and running out of petrol would be very annoying too because nobody wants to constantly be refilling all the time. On a full tank we probably wouldn't run out anyway before the car is destroyed or abandoned, but even so it's another example of suspension of disbelief and giving way to gameplay elements over realism. If it were a simulator it's a different matter, but it isn't. One of the biggest issues some have with San Andreas is the hunger system. Nobody wants to be going out of their way just for something so small.

 

These aren't so much comparable to a female protagonist because there's story elements that are dealt with when it comes to protagonists. For story purposes, you can easily implement a mission where you have to do something before car petrol runs out, and that would just as well work because of the story-driven purposes (though judging by responses to Supply Lines from San Andreas, it'd still frustrate many people). In actual gameplay though you don't want to be worrying about running out of fuel. It ruins the fun. Even if we want a realistic story we still need gameplay that isn't so realistic to the point it's not fun because it ultimately still is a video game. There's certain exemptions that need to be taken, but if you're trying to make a realistic storyline based on real life you need to know what you're dealing with.

 

(At this point, I'm just done. It's obvious this discussion isn't going to change direction any time soon, so I may as well just carry on with my arguments and addressing those of others before the lock comes).

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Grotti Vigilante

[universetwisters]

10 minutes ago, Pink Pineapple said:

 

I've never seen anyone show how a female protagonist would improve the game. What's to gain? Clothing / appearance options and things involving sex appeal? I'm fine with a secondary female character, but for the main protagonist I want a male. In real life and fiction, the baddest, toughest, most intimidating, and most believable criminals are men. That's not sexist, it's reality.

I mean that completely ignores my simple yes or no question to you but then again I'm not surprised

Edited June 29, 2019 by universetwisters

[El Penguin Bobo]

10 minutes ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

In GTA V, you could only change colour at a mod garage, which were closed when you have a wanted level. 

Nah, Pay N Spray also works in V, it just works the same way as IV.

[Grotti Vigilante]

Just now, El Penguin Bobo said:

Nah, Pay N Spray also works in V, it just works the same way as IV.

Does it? I've not played in a while, but I remember it being different in that you couldn't go in with a wanted level. It'd always be closed.

[El Penguin Bobo]

Just now, Grotti Vigilante said:

Does it? I've not played in a while, but I remember it being different in that you couldn't go in with a wanted level. It'd always be closed.

It works on my end. It will bring up a prompt saying "Lose the Cops" if a cop is near by. You can either hide in the garage or just respray for it to be quicker.

[Grotti Vigilante]

Just now, El Penguin Bobo said:

It works on my end. It will bring up a prompt saying "Lose the Cops" if a cop is near by. You can either hide in the garage or just respray for it to be quicker.

Hmm, perhaps I should go back and play it again soon. Seems like a similar situation even.

[Yinepi]

Any major change would be a sight to see for me. I've said this in several threads before; GTA is stale. With every new title Rockstar paint the same house with a new colour. Saints row went from being an open world gang-related game to a game about superpowers and aliens in a matter of 5 years, but for GTA it took them 16 years just to add flying cars (outside of cheats) and 3 protags. Which Rockstar still managed to make feel like I've done it before. Last time Rockstar did something revolutionary for the GTA series was in 2001. They've come up with several interesting things in the spin offs such as the empire building of VCS and the RP mechanics of SA, only to never use them again. We get the same base game every time but with a new city even more annoying protagonists as Rockstar strive to make an interactive movie and sightseeing simulator instead of a video game.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Yinepi

[Pink Pineapple]

1 hour ago, universetwisters said:

I mean that completely ignores my simple yes or no question to you but then again I'm not surprised

 

You ignored my question first. Here it is again...

 

A female protagonist would make the game more unrealistic, so what's the point of having one?

 

That's the most important question here. The topic is about change. If something is changed, it should make the game better. How will a female protagonist improve the game?

[Yinepi]

I've played several games with a female lead and in my opinion they contribute nothing to the game other than that awkward feeling of playing as a woman. It's like all those that play GTAO as a female protag, I think to myself all the time when I see that "Why?". Some roles are just better suited for men I think.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Yinepi

[Zello]

I'd like to see a dirty cop protagonist.

[Sunglasses]

I'd say I am pretty open to change for GTA. I agree with Yinepi above and would like for Rockstar to try something new and to shake up the formula for the series. I wouldn't like for them to go too far out like what happened with the Saints Row series, that would just divide fans. I would just like for them to try something new while still keeping true to the classic GTA formula. The three protagonist thing was an interesting concept and I actually did like it in V, I just didn't like the characters. Changes like that would be welcome.