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Mr. Burger

Why would the Sun appear to the north at noon if this is New York?

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Mr. Burger
Posted (edited)

First of all, guys, sorry if this has been discussed already - I tried to search but found nothing useful.

 

So, this is something I didn't notice when I first played the game 15 years ago, it took me quite a while to put my finger on it. The map seemingly has a correct northern orientation, given that Staunton Island's business district is where it would be in real-life Manhattan. And since Liberty City is New York, and New York is in the northern hemisphere, the Sun should be following its path going from southeast to southwest, but it's going northeast-northwest.

 

Do you know if this was done by mistake, was it some technical limitation or was it a deliberate artistic choice to better suit the game? Is there any way to give the Sun a correct path? Are there any such mods? I'm guessing that doing it the other way around and simply rotating the map 180° horizontally wouldn't work without having to edit every coordinate throughout the files, because everything would now be in an entirely new position in space.

 

If my memory serves me right, the same thing is applicable to Vice City. I'm guessing because it's largely based on III technically.

 

tl;dr - any idea why this is and how to fix it?

Edited by Mr. Burger

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GTA_CAT

GTA developers don't know too much about astronomy since in SA you can see also a R shaped constellation lol. Now seriously, idk why it's made like this but I would discard technical limitations. Actually I think they didn't even take into account this. 

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Deep Verma

Who cares about in which direction sun is moving. Sun barely works in GTA 3 due to air pollution .

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stef_92
Posted (edited)

Liberty City is NOT New York to begin with. It was BASED on New York but it's not New York. It may seem as those two statements are the same but they aren't. With that being said you have to stop thinking about the real New York. It's a made up city and if it will make it easier for you - it's in a different universe :D And if we have to be precise, here's a good explanation about the sunrises:

33zb6ko.png

 

If you start taking pictures of the sun's position in the sky everyday at the same astronomical time and then merge them you will see that the suns from all photos will make up a shape similar to the number 8. That's how it changes it's position in the sky (it's called anallema):

2u57y2e.png

Edited by stef_92

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Mr. Burger
Posted (edited)
On 5/17/2019 at 3:58 PM, GTA_CAT said:

Actually I think they didn't even take into account this. 

This is probably what happened.

 

On 5/17/2019 at 4:51 PM, Deep Verma said:

Who cares about in which direction sun is moving. Sun barely works in GTA 3 due to air pollution .

Well, I do - to a degree. If you flip the Sun the other way, it's almost like a different game to me: in clear weather it would rise over the docks in Portland and set over Kenji's casino, for example.

 

21 hours ago, stef_92 said:

Liberty City is NOT New York to begin with. It was BASED on New York but it's not New York. It may seem as those two statements are the same but they aren't. With that being said you have to stop thinking about the real New York. It's a made up city and if it will make it easier for you - it's in a different universe :D And if we have to be precise, here's a good explanation about the sunrises:

33zb6ko.png

 

If you start taking pictures of the sun's position in the sky everyday at the same astronomical time and then merge them you will see that the suns from all photos will make up a shape similar to the number 8. That's how it changes it's position in the sky (it's called anallema):

2u57y2e.png

Au contraire, Liberty is New York in the same sense that Vice is Miami and Los Santos is Los Angeles. It may not be called that, it may not be a 1:1 digital replica, but that is what it is largely based on. R* didn't invent it - It' just their own satirical version of it. Does that make it easier for you?

 

Yes, I know that the Sun's path (relative to the observer) does shift and it appears in different places during different seasons. But it still wouldn't magically appear to your north if you are in the USA. This is what I find strange.

 

Also take this into account: in every major game after III and VC the Sun appears to your south. I'm starting to think that someone at R* decided to finally address this one day, after some poor schmuck like me gave them sh*t about it.

Edited by Mr. Burger

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Deep Verma
11 hours ago, Mr. Burger said:

 

Well, I do - to a degree. If you flip the Sun the other way, it's almost like a different game to me: in clear weather it would rise over the docks in Portland and set over Kenji's casino, for example.

 

Download any timecyc which makes the game weather cloudy forever. No Sun, No Problem. just eradicate the problem by Hiding Sun.

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Mr. Burger
11 hours ago, Deep Verma said:

Download any timecyc which makes the game weather cloudy forever. No Sun, No Problem. just eradicate the problem by Hiding Sun.

Out of sight, out of mind, eh? :D

Yeah, I might just look into finding out if it could be fixed if I find enough spare time.

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stef_92
Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2019 at 9:09 PM, Mr. Burger said:

It may not be called that, it may not be a 1:1 digital replica, but that is what it is largely based on.

Read my second sentence again - I already said that it is based on New York.

More on the topic:

10rqzxj.png

Also Keep in mind that Vice CIty (Miami) and San Andras (Los Angeles, San Franciso, Las Vegas) are more to the south while Liberty City (New York) is at the northern part of the states.

 

Edited by stef_92

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Mr. Burger
Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 10:26 PM, stef_92 said:

Read my second sentence again - I already said that it is based on New York.

You say potato, I say potato. Either way, totally irrelevant. Why would you even argue about this in the first place? Please, stop derailing the thread.

 

On 5/20/2019 at 10:26 PM, stef_92 said:

More on the topic:

10rqzxj.png

 

 

You're almost right - If we take today (May 23) in NY as an example, then - yes, the sunrise and sunset would occur north of east and west, as the day is long and the Sun rises high over the horizon. However, it's autumn in III, and in autumn it's a different picture:

 

aeL3Zov.jpg


EVEN THEN, it really doesn't even matter, as this still wouldn't place the Sun to the north of the horizon at noon. No way, no how, fugeddaboutit! This is what I find strange - the Sun in the game is going along the north of the horizon, not the south. That's the real problem I have with the game, and I've stated it multiple times, yet you can't or don't want to understand it.

 

Maybe I should've named the thread a bit different, so that people like you wouldn't be able to nitpick, instead of actually being helpful. I'll just edit it.

 

On 5/20/2019 at 10:26 PM, stef_92 said:

Also Keep in mind that Vice CIty (Miami) and San Andras (Los Angeles, San Franciso, Las Vegas) are more to the south while Liberty City (New York) is at the northern part of the states.

Same thing. East to west, south at noon.

Edited by Mr. Burger

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universetwisters

Who's to say GTA 3's Liberty City is New York?


Especially when Times Square is mentioned in Vice City on the radio.

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Mr. Burger
6 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Who's to say GTA 3's Liberty City is New York?


Especially when Times Square is mentioned in Vice City on the radio.

No, it's not New York. It's OMPKLASDKIGSDAIH on the planet OIJKLADSJIOLASDIOH. Happy now?

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universetwisters
8 minutes ago, Mr. Burger said:

No, it's not New York. It's OMPKLASDKIGSDAIH on the planet OIJKLADSJIOLASDIOH. Happy now?

 

I mean your answer contributed literally nothing to the conversation but okay

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Mr. Burger
6 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

I mean your answer contributed literally nothing to the conversation but okay

I mean yours did?!?!?!

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universetwisters
Just now, Mr. Burger said:

I mean yours did?!?!?!

 

Yeah but I brought up a valid point on how Liberty City may not be entirely based on New York so the information in the topic may not be 100% correct and you reply with a bad attempt at humor.

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Mr. Burger
Just now, universetwisters said:

 

Yeah but I brought up a valid point on how Liberty City may not be entirely based on New York so the information in the topic may not be 100% correct and you reply with a bad attempt at humor.

Why do you, like the other guy, not see what I'm trying to say and instead insist on concentrating on minor details?

 

Okay, say Liberty =/= NY, then even still, it's North America. North. North of the Equator. Hence, the Sun shouldn't appear like it does in the game. Need I really say it once more?

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universetwisters
42 minutes ago, Mr. Burger said:

Why do you, like the other guy, not see what I'm trying to say and instead insist on concentrating on minor details?

 

Okay, say Liberty =/= NY, then even still, it's North America. North. North of the Equator. Hence, the Sun shouldn't appear like it does in the game. Need I really say it once more?

 

I doubt Rockstar cared much about the sun's position. Look at the Rockstar star cluster in San Andreas. They don't care about astrology sky sh*t, they just want it to look nice.

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Mr. Burger
28 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

I doubt Rockstar cared much about the sun's position. Look at the Rockstar star cluster in San Andreas. They don't care about astrology sky sh*t, they just want it to look nice.

Most likely. This dude already said the same thing in the second post, maybe you missed it:

 

On 5/17/2019 at 3:58 PM, GTA_CAT said:

GTA developers don't know too much about astronomy since in SA you can see also a R shaped constellation lol. Now seriously, idk why it's made like this but I would discard technical limitations. Actually I think they didn't even take into account this. 

At some point they started to care just a little bit more:

 

On 5/18/2019 at 9:09 PM, Mr. Burger said:

Also take this into account: in every major game after III and VC the Sun appears to your south. I'm starting to think that someone at R* decided to finally address this one day, after some poor schmuck like me gave them sh*t about it.

 

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Cjrememberthat

Eockstar forgot that şol

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Evil empire
Posted (edited)

The sun appears in the north at noon because it's Liberty City, Helios has more freedom in this city than anywhere else and enjoys it to explore a place it never visits otherwise. The sun is free like Max. You don't get it? So much the worse.^^

 

I know this comment doesn't make the schmilblick go ahead at all but I wanted to post it anyway.

Edited by Evil empire

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KiwiAlpha
On 5/18/2019 at 1:09 PM, Mr. Burger said:

Au contraire, Liberty is New York in the same sense that Vice is Miami and Los Santos is Los Angeles. It may not be called that, it may not be a 1:1 digital replica, but that is what it is largely based on. R* didn't invent it - It' just their own satirical version of it. Does that make it easier for you?

Library City is not largely based on New York City. It's missing the vast majority of NYC's landmarks and even Dan Houser has described Liberty City as a "hybrid of a generic American city", including New York, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Philadelphia. 

 

On a side note, growing up and living in Miami I can tell you firsthand Vice City is nothing like the city I grew up in. Again, they're missing the vast majority of the landmarks (where is Calle Ocho, Viscaya, Freedom Tower, the Venetian Pool, etc?), the geography is really distorted, Little Havana is not a ghetto cesspit, there are no Mexican gangsters, Miami Beach is a fraction of the size of the Miami mainland, not to mention another city and why is there a trailer park next to Downtown Miami? Vice City is a pastiche of generic city, ghetto, beach town and what the Scottish developers thought Miami was like by watching unreasonable amounts of Scarface and Miami Vice.

 

It wasn't until San Andreas where Rockstar really began to focus on the accuracy of the cities and even moreso in the HD games where the cities are practically replicas.

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Lioshenka

That's a very good find! I wonder why R* have done it this way?

 

My only guess would be for the better visual effect; knowing R* they used to perfect every little detail of their games, so I can't see them forgetting about the sun's trajectory.

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Mr. Burger
Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2019 at 1:17 PM, KiwiAlpha said:

Library City is not largely based on New York City. It's missing the vast majority of NYC's landmarks and even Dan Houser has described Liberty City as a "hybrid of a generic American city", including New York, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Philadelphia. 

 

On a side note, growing up and living in Miami I can tell you firsthand Vice City is nothing like the city I grew up in. Again, they're missing the vast majority of the landmarks (where is Calle Ocho, Viscaya, Freedom Tower, the Venetian Pool, etc?), the geography is really distorted, Little Havana is not a ghetto cesspit, there are no Mexican gangsters, Miami Beach is a fraction of the size of the Miami mainland, not to mention another city and why is there a trailer park next to Downtown Miami? Vice City is a pastiche of generic city, ghetto, beach town and what the Scottish developers thought Miami was like by watching unreasonable amounts of Scarface and Miami Vice.

 

It wasn't until San Andreas where Rockstar really began to focus on the accuracy of the cities and even moreso in the HD games where the cities are practically replicas.

 

I appreciate your effort. Alas, you too are being way too literal with my wording and are missing the point entirely.

Edited by Mr. Burger

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KiwiAlpha
9 hours ago, Mr. Burger said:

I appreciate your effort. Alas, you too are being way too literal with my wording and are missing the point entirely.

Lol cool

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