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Jenkiiii

🏏 TO GRIEF OR NOT TO GRIEF, what exactly is it?

Recommended Posts

Big Molio
Just now, Imponte Deluxo said:

so 100,000 is nothing for you?

The poster doesn't seem to mind having a vehicle stolen from him, but he doesn't like to have a vehicle destroyed. Either way, he's lost his investment. Perhaps he finds it easier to stomach that the vehicle has been stolen rather than simply destroyed, I don't know?

 

This is all a circular argument, with no real consensus. It's been an on / off topic of debate since I started posting here, and I've had some choice language and angst thrown my way during my tenure here in all these type of threads. One man's grief is another man's game. The game is full of inherent contradictory rules from the developers anyway, and it's no wonder then that the players are even more confused. 

 

The fact is however that the developers have contrived GTAO Freemode to be one great big Grief Pit, and provided modes of play and the tools to cause each and every one of us to be at each other's throats in varying ways. That's the nature of it. This started in earnest as soon as they introduced the CEO / VIP / MC stuff. The howls of despair since have been almost endless.

 

I don't think that there is a definitive answer.

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Sanches
Posted (edited)

This probably should go to chat thread, but once more griefing one popped out so.

So my friend lost like 40-1 to some dude and then he added that dominator to friend list to talk about stuff. He asked things like why do they farm K/D on other players, blowing up deliveries etc. I don't think he was trully honest.
That pseudo dominator told that he feels it like a gameplay style, which he got pointed on by developers. Like at one point farming money feels useless and he started to seek for other ingame activities. Racing, Snapmatic, roleplaying didn't worked out for him, so he started to go freemode PvP abusing every single game mechanics.

I can relate to that, partly. I've never found infinite money farm any interesting, some of the ways are more or less exciting, but even they are getting boring after 15 minutes. So here i am, just sitting in Discord or listening to music while helping my friends with their grind and yet to find interest in disbalanced PvP.

 

The following question was about deathmatches, why didn't he go play DMs? Unlike 90% of AMs, you can find people still play it. Why target bystanders minding their own business over other fans of freemode PvP just like that guy? Well, we didn't get the clear aswer yet. I think it's all about the magic number of K/D. How does killing a single player 40 times in a row actually raising your game skill? I don't know.

 

To be clear, im not against people who's killing other players while they're doing PvP activities (Fortified, Business Battles etc), it's not even a griefing.

Edited by Sanches
I can't feel my right pinky

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YELLOW DOG WITH CONE
58 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

You get nothing either way.

1HWQIPa.gif

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CanadianMuscle
Posted (edited)

Really, I feel that being attacked for anything business-related is the element of the game that crosses the line as griefing. First of all, the victim, depending on the form of work they're investing in, has thousands and possibly millions on the line that they invested time and money into.

 

If it's an actual competitive gamemode? Yeah, so be it. I could be relentlessly attacked on any mission with no entry cost, can be restarted within minutes, and I couldn't care less. On the other hand, though; if somebody's chasing my hard-earned payload, they know very well i'll be making them suffer afterwards.

 

At this point R* will need to draw a line to highlight the details as to which is an acceptable form of "competitive gameplay" for players to participate in. Let's imagine something: if you were to be an actual crime lord IRL, transporting hot product to a buyer; there'd be potential for resistance. They'd very likely chase you relative to how you're transporting it, law enforcement or rivals pursuing by land, sea and air? (Alright, I don't know fully how they do things IRL, but I reckon it'd be similar) Realistically, anybody opposing would want that product for themselves, right? Either that or it's confiscated and analyzed my law enforcement. It'd be a bit of a waste for it all to be burned, and there's really no benefit of that for either opposing parties. Maybe it'd make the streets safer, i'm sure. Even with how absurd GTA V's environment has become, it wouldn't be a realistic thing IRL to be blown to pieces by a totally random person in a neon bodysuit spamming missiles on a flying motorcycle. 🤔

Edited by CanadianMuscle

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Big Molio
2 minutes ago, CanadianMuscle said:

Really, I feel that being attacked for anything business-related is the element of the game that crosses the line as griefing. First of all, the victim, depending on the form of work they're investing in, has thousands and possibly millions on the line that they invested time and money into.

Time, I get, but what money, shark card money? Genuine question.

 

If you stand to make millions from a delivery, how easy or unhindered do you think that should be? Kind of high stakes, high reward don’t you think?

 

 

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YELLOW DOG WITH CONE
5 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

If you stand to make millions from a delivery, how easy or unhindered do you think that should be? Kind of high stakes, high reward don’t you think?

"High risk, high reward" implies that both parties are risking something in a gamble of sorts.

 

Take for example a game like Rust or DayZ, even if you're fully equipped and you start preying on poorly equipped players, you're still at risk of dying and losing all your equipment, so it's kind of balanced.

 

Meanwhile, in GTAO, the attackers don't risk anything at all, they can try as many times they want with the vehicles and weapons they want and they're not affected at all if they don't manage to destroy the cargo on time. It's the complete opposite for the seller.

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CanadianMuscle
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Time, I get, but what money, shark card money? Genuine question.

Not so much Shark Cards but I meant like equipment costs ($2-18K Special Cargo crates, $75K Bunker and Biker business supplies for generating product) and all the time spent in the game leaving your Nightclub warehouse technicians, Bunker staff and others to create and/or gather the product for you to bring to a buyer. All the upgrades and setup costs to ensure your business runs effectively.

Edited by CanadianMuscle

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Big Molio
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

"High risk, high reward" implies that both parties are risking something in a gamble of sorts.

 

Take for example a game like Rust or DayZ, even if you're fully equipped and you start preying on poorly equipped players, you're still at risk of dying and losing all your equipment, so it's kind of balanced.

 

Meanwhile, in GTAO, the attackers don't risk anything at all, they can try as many times they want with the vehicles and weapons they want and they're not affected at all if they don't manage to destroy the cargo on time. It's the complete opposite for the seller.

But the attackers don’t stand to make anything like a potential million dollars either.

Edited by Big Molio

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Lonely-Martin
10 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Time, I get, but what money, shark card money? Genuine question.

 

If you stand to make millions from a delivery, how easy or unhindered do you think that should be? Kind of high stakes, high reward don’t you think?

Possibly cards, but premium edition owners are pushed more towards businesses, and with sh*t vehicles to help, lol. They paid cash for that and it gives a million or so to start buying supplies/crates etc. It could be real money invested for some.

 

Also though, not to be a pain in the arse, how easy should it be if you stand to cost someone potentially as much as $4.4m in-game? All it takes is a brief fly-by at the moment, surely for such an amount of investment from a player to get to that amount is worth more than 'one life vs unlimited' or 'tugboat vs OP MKII' for example. It's all on R* in how they messed it all up for me, I'll not ramble much though, lol. ;)

 

I do agree with you, if we get blown up or our stuff stolen, what does it matter. But on sales we're limited to certain vehicles (and many resupply runs too), if those can only be stolen, they're still regular vehicles we can chase after and try to win back. Stuff being indestructible at least offers a chance for a tug of war, often these days it's just boom, job done. (I see it all the time, though I won't return to public for businesses).

 

Anyway, @Jenkiiii. I'd say session following is griefing and IMHO, joining PvE missions to deliberately disrupt/kill players is too. Pretty much the only griefing I suffer now. It'd be a miracle if I go public around randoms, though the nightclub is a huge improvement for sellers. :)

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Big Molio
2 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Also though, not to be a pain in the arse, how easy should it be if you stand to cost someone potentially as much as $4.4m in-game?

As I said to Voodoo-Hendrix up there, the difficulty and risk liability doesn’t lie with the attacking party because he isn’t potentially going to make a huge payday.

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Lonely-Martin
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

As I said to Voodoo-Hendrix up there, the difficulty and risk liability doesn’t lie with the attacking party because he isn’t potentially going to make a huge payday.

Yeah, on top of R* making it all indestructible, they should make it all like air cargo or I/E where it goes to our warehouses to sell and earn from it too if we do steal from another. Potentially a player tgen can refill by never buying supplies or stealing from NPC's.

 

Could have been a real game of it.

Edited by Lonely-Martin

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CanadianMuscle
Posted (edited)

I'm a bit puzzled as to how hard it actually should be during sell missions.

 

Yeah, where there's risk there's reward. The "High Demand" bonus at least adds something to the risk factor, but how easy it is for the attacker specifically, no risk at all on their end; bearing the ability to call their weaponized personal vehicles right at their feet, and within seconds rushing over to you, as you're hammering the throttle to the drop off in the hopes your vehicle is strong enough that you'll survive the attack. This whole thing was thrown off when R* confused players about what's right and what's wrong, and the lack of gameplay balance is at the center of everything on the table.

Edited by CanadianMuscle

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YELLOW DOG WITH CONE
5 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

As I said to Voodoo-Hendrix up there, the difficulty and risk liability doesn’t lie with the attacking party because he isn’t potentially going to make a huge payday.

Then it's not true high risk, high reward then.

 

For such system to actually work, both parties (attackers and sellers) should have something to win and something to lose.

 

Currently, the attacker has nothing to win ($2k is basically peanuts nowadays) and nothing to lose. The seller has something to win and something to lose (either GTA$ spent on cargo/supplies, time invested or both).

 

It's an uneven and intentionally unbalanced system in which no one actually wins and everyone loses.

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Big Molio
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

Then it's not true high risk, high reward then.

 

For such system to actually work, both parties (attackers and sellers) should have something to win and something to lose.

 

Currently, the attacker has nothing to win ($2k is basically peanuts nowadays) and nothing to lose. The seller has something to win and something to lose (either GTA$ spent on cargo/supplies, time invested or both).

 

It's an uneven and intentionally unbalanced system in which no one actually wins and everyone loses.

Of course it is. It is designed to be high risk / high reward for the selling party. The attacking party is simply that, an obstacle to completion for the seller. He doesn't risk anything, but conversely he doesn't stand to make anything either.

 

The payouts are potentially huge for sellers, but they offset that against selling their wares in a dangerous environment. The principle is sound.

 

Think about a drug smuggler in real life. The more drugs he smuggles, the more he makes, but the longer he is likely to spend in jail if he gets caught. Risk / Reward. There doesn't have to be any risk / reward element liability lying with the cops / customs officers for that principle to still be true.

 

What I think also is that these jobs selling goods are designed to be completed most successfully by players who work together as a gang or an organisation to defend them.

 

I see crews rolling out down the road with seven or eight players, two or three carrying the goods and the rest acting as armed support in tanks, helicopters and other armoury. No-one attacks them.

 

I think that is how Rockstar envisage that the jobs ought to be carried out.

 

 

 

Edited by Big Molio

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YELLOW DOG WITH CONE
5 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Of course it is. It is designed to be high risk / high rewardďťżďťżďťż for the selling party. The attacking party is simply that, an obstacle to completion for the seller. He doesn't risk anything, but conversely he doesn't stand to make anything either.

 

The payouts are potentially huge for sellers, but they offset that against selling their wares in a dangerous environment. The ďťżprinciple is sound.

 

Think about a drug smuggler in real life. The more drugs he smuggles, the more he makes, but the longer he is likely to spend in jail if he gets caught. Risk / Reward. There doesn't have to be any risk / reward element liability lying with the cops / ďťżcustoms officers for that principle to still be true.ďťż

The thing is that attackers in this game are meant to be criminals, not law enforcement.

 

Wouldn't a criminal either stay away from others, try to forge an alliance or a truce with them or if all else fails, try to kill them and seize their good for himself? I don't remember Al Capone blowing up shipments of booze or Pablo Escobar blowing up shipments of coke (although he did bomb some things, but you get my point).

 

7 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Whatďťż I think also is that these jobs selling goods are designed to be completed most successfully by players who work together as a gang or an organisation to defend them.

 

I see crews rolling ďťżout down the road with seven or eight players, two or three carrying the goods and the rest acting as armed support in tanks, helicopters and other armoury. No-one attacks them.

 

I think that is how Rockstar envisageďťż that the jobs ought to be carried out.

While it's true than in theory sales are meant to be done with teams of players, in practice it's a different tale. The game doesn't reward you enough for helping other players, which ends up with so many players trying to solo an obviously team based (or sometimes team forced) affair just to fail unsurprisingly.

 

Obviously you have groups of friends or crews that help each other with sales and whatnot, but those are more of an exception than the norm.

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Big Molio
3 minutes ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

The thing is that attackers in this game are meant to be criminals, not law enforcement.

 

Wouldn't a criminal either stay away from others, try to forge an alliance or a truce with them or if all else fails, try to kill them and seize their good for himself? I don't remember Al Capone blowing up shipments of booze or Pablo Escobar blowing up shipments of coke (although he did bomb some things, but you get my point).

 

While it's true than in theory sales are meant to be done with teams of players, in practice it's a different tale. The game doesn't reward you enough for helping other players, which ends up with so many players trying to solo an obviously team based (or sometimes team forced) affair just to fail unsurprisingly.

 

Obviously you have groups of friends or crews that help each other with sales and whatnot, but those are more of an exception than the norm.

I think that whichever way a player loses a potential huge payout, he isn't going to be happy. If you lost a $1,000,000 van to me because I stole it from you and drove off in it, followed minutes later with "Hey thnx for $1m lolzzz" on the chat, you are going to be pretty pissed either way, let's face it. 

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YELLOW DOG WITH CONE
9 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

I think that whichever way a player loses a potential huge payout, he isn't going to be happy. If you lost a $1,000,000 van to me because I stole it from you and drove off in it, followed minutes later with "Hey thnx for $1m lolzzz" on the chat, you are going to be pretty pissed either way, let's face it. 

Then it wouldn't be for the payout, it would be to elicit a negative reaction on the other player, aka, grief.

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Big Molio
1 minute ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

Then it wouldn't be for the payout, it would be to elicit a negative reaction on the other player, aka, grief.

But “steal rather than destroy” advocates can’t have it all ways.

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CanadianMuscle

At least the product isn't going to waste if it's stolen and stored rather than being blown to pieces.

 

Agent 14's a snitch sometimes. 🤔

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Big Molio
17 minutes ago, CanadianMuscle said:

At least the product isn't going to waste if it's stolen and stored rather than being blown to pieces.

 

Agent 14's a snitch sometimes. 🤔

But the loss is still there for the seller, either way. 

 

I don’t think he would feel any better whatsoever knowing that his graft had benefited another player. The anguish would be ten-fold, and so would the perceived “griefing”

 

I would be robbing players blind if I got to keep $100,000+ each time.

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CanadianMuscle
1 minute ago, Big Molio said:

But the loss is still there for the seller, either way. 

 

I don’t think he would feel any better whatsoever knowing that his graft had benefited another player. The anguish would be ten-fold, and so would the perceived “griefing”

 

I would be robbing players blind if I got to keep $100,000+ each time.

Somebody suggested on the Rebalancing Suggestions thread about implementing a "payback" or "recovery" mechanic that gives the original owner of the stock a 15m window to launch a raid on the attacker's business property to take back your product. It'd be relatively the same as a typical business raid for the Bunker and Biker businesses, and it'd work that way for both players.

 

It could be more balanced competition as the victim would have a fighting chance, and said rival can choose whether to defend their business and secure the product, or just let it happen.

 

Although...I don't know how things should turn out when you die. Whether there's a single chance, or certain number of lives the victim could have before the mission is over. Given by how quickly and easily a single player could kill another, a single chance wouldn't be enough for the victim. So what if the victim has unlimited lives, but the defender of said business has one or two chances to fend off the opposition and secure the product?

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Big Molio
14 minutes ago, CanadianMuscle said:

Somebody suggested on the Rebalancing Suggestions thread about implementing a "payback" or "recovery" mechanic that gives the original owner of the stock a 15m window to launch a raid on the attacker's business property to take back your product. It'd be relatively the same as a typical business raid for the Bunker and Biker businesses, and it'd work that way for both players.

 

It could be more balanced competition as the victim would have a fighting chance, and said rival can choose whether to defend their business and secure the product, or just let it happen.

 

Although...I don't know how things should turn out when you die. Whether there's a single chance, or certain number of lives the victim could have before the mission is over. Given by how quickly and easily a single player could kill another, a single chance wouldn't be enough for the victim. So what if the victim has unlimited lives, but the defender of said business has one or two chances to fend off the opposition and secure the product?

Not a bad idea.

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ilovefreebird
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Imponte Deluxo said:

I have 4 years playing gta online (2 in old gen and 2 in new gen) and i never see this one lol

I believe you have to be killed 3 or 4 times without inflicting damage on your killer, then the option pops up during the wasted screen (next to the Respawn and the One on One Deathmatch options). You select it and your killer can't see you for awhile; probably a couple minutes, I've never done it though.

Edited by ilovefreebird

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Imponte Deluxo
1 minute ago, ilovefreebird said:

I believe you have to be killed 3 or 4 times without inflicting damage on your killer, then the option pops up during the wasted screen (next to the Respawn and the One on One Deathmatch options). You select it and your killer can't see you for awhile; probably a couple minutes, I've never done it though.

im not talking about the ghost option , im talking about that loading screen , i never see it in the past 

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ilovefreebird
2 minutes ago, Imponte Deluxo said:

im not talking about the ghost option , im talking about that loading screen , i never see it in the past 

Okay. You asked if it was for real. I said I didn't know about the loading screen but that the ghosting option still works. Glad we sorted this out.

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kcole4001

Just popped in to say great original post, as Mach1 said, very much a well thought out post,definitely a 'high effort' work.

 

No further comment since I fundamentally disagree with many regarding the core of the game and it's effects on the future of the series.

I have no patience to argue with others about it.

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BOOGIEMAN219
Posted (edited)

When somebody destroys my bunker or nightclub money I don't see it as griefing me, I see it as I f*cked up and made a bad judgement call. If people want to play a game with no consequences ok but not me.

 

I wish we could steal sell mission. I don't blow up anybody's money (exception with vip work) but none of this really matters now that im in bad sport for a while. I generally enter a session and kill a tryhard and we go back and forth for hours until somebody else gets involved and its fun.

 

 

Edited by BOOGIEMAN219

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-LN-
15 hours ago, CanadianMuscle said:

It depends on your perspective, I guess. Sometimes I really feel that games in general can bring out the worst in certain individuals that take things way too seriously.

 

It's kinda hard not to fall into a pissy mood when you have a particular player yelling racist comments and spamming the chat, destroying and killing, bombing the lobby to all hell when you and the rest are just trying to have a decent time in the game. Sure, you can mute them, report them, vote to kick, or leave the session. Dirty or not, they bought the game to play how they like, but it's just depressing when you have to deal with problematic people just being all-around cunts either for no particular reason or they have "something" that drives them to be this way, with no real respect for the rest of the playerbase.

 

What happened when games were a good kind of competitive gameplay? Properly balanced, good taste, oriented to fans where companies actually gave a f*ck about providing something that players would enjoy without stirring up unnecessary conflict. That's how the early and mid-2000's games were to me, and I enjoyed every minute of it, and made some of the best memories through it.

 

Looking at the gaming industry now? Many, many popular games, particularly online games, have been revamped into... let's say, hostile or toxic environments? Money grabs? Designed purely to be addicting? While maybe the quality of some games were improved, not so much online interaction with players, and in this case, it's entirely both R* and Take-Two's mess.

 

It's their game, I won't b*tch about it being imbalanced and often toxic much, although the sad reality of it is that quite a few players are out of their element when they decide to abuse the mechanics and make things personal over a video game.

Very well said; I agree 100%!

 

When playing, I usually either create a solo "silence" party chat for myself or turn the chat volume all the way down so I don't have to listen to people's ignorance/bigotry/stupidity/nonsense. It gives me a migraine and I refuse to entertain or give these people attention as well.

 

What this game and other similar games bring out within certain individuals can be quite depressing to say the least. Nine times out of ten, it's generally the same tiring racial, sexist, and bigoted insults being thrown around and while I personally can just brush it off, ignore these people, refuse to play/engage with them, and not think twice about it; it definitely illustrates a very clear picture of just how obnoxious, heartless, and ignorant people can act over a video game. Verbal or text griefing is often a bigger problem than gameplay griefing, but from what I've noticed in the past when I did have voice chat enabled is that the two are often intertwined - those verbally assaulting other players were often the ones trying to wreck the overall flow of gameplay and doing whatever they could to just simply piss anyone and everyone off with their tactics.

 

I dunno, people like to argue that because this game is centred around being a criminal, it gives people a pass in regards to doing whatever they please and that open, unwarranted hostility is perfectly acceptable. Granted, R* itself seems to think that certain 'griefing' endeavours in regards to gameplay are acceptable; there's not much that can be done about that, but we paid for this game as well and we should not have to tolerate certain things on the other end of the spectrum. There should be easier ways to avoid these things - verbal/text abuse ought to be taken much more seriously by R*, Sony, Microsoft, etc. but unfortunately it is often just ignored by them and the patterns continue and only seem to get worse as time progresses.

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Jenkiiii

I'm not giving out many likes or posting many comments for fear of getting into an argument/being biased.

 

I have added this little section to the OK-TO-GRIEF-Activities section concerning Client Jobs:

 

6. Client Jobs (requires Terrorbyte)

  • Robbery in Progress
  • Data Sweep
  • Targeted Data
  • Diamond Shopping

Interfering in another person's progress in any of these jobs is not griefing. It may feel like you are being griefed if someone snipes you from a building while you're trying to rob a bank in 'Robbery in Progress' or get the booty in 'Diamond Shopping', for example, but it really isn't. The person who grabs and delivers the spoils gets paid. Just be careful not to be the person who does all the work, only for someone else to swoop in and grab the winnings.

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Big Molio

I also think that engaging in any of the following with the intent to stop the job starter from winning is definitely not griefing:

 

Headhunter

Piracy Prevention

Executive Search

Hostile Takeover

Stand Your Ground

Weapon of Choice

Sightseer

Haulage

Fortified

 

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