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Jenkiiii

🏏 TO GRIEF OR NOT TO GRIEF, what exactly is it?

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HamwithCheese
4 hours ago, Smokewood said:

* some nonsense *

ok cool

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Big Molio
9 hours ago, Voodoo-Hendrix said:

While I agree with the notion that players will be dicks no matter what, I also think that a playerbase becomes as toxic as the developers let them be.

 

After all, there's a difference between players finding ways to grief other players outside the boundaries that the game allows and the developers literally promoting, rewarding and outright empowering griefing like behaviour for profit.

Isn’t this what I have been saying all along? This behaviour is legitimised by being within the play ethos of the game’s designers. GTA Online is what it is and despite its intolerable nature at times, we keep coming back for more.

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HamwithCheese

I come back because there's nothing else like it. That doesnt mean its a great game, certainly doesn't make their practices okay.

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kenmy13999
Posted (edited)

This is just a little quote from the site linked under the quote 

Quote

Any method of reversing another player's progress, such as destroying or modifying other players' creations in sandbox games like Minecraft and Terraria. Some games, such as the online segment of Grand Theft Auto V, encourage resetting a player's progress through the destruction of crates, business supplies, and other valuables. This is considered developer-sanctioned griefing.

 

 

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

 

I think this one is relatively interesting also and something that's often seen in gta, I know at least on person complaining about it.. 

.

Quote

Driving vehicles backwards around lapped courses in multiplayer racing games, often done with the intent of crashing head-on into whoever is in first place.

.

Quote
  •  

Edited by kenmy13999

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Smokewood

As if that definition means anything.

lol

Question... Is it griefing when my knight takes your queen in chess?

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Voodoo-Hendrix
39 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

Question... Is it griefing when my knight takes your queen in chess?

No. You literally can't get griefed in chess. False analogy.

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Lonely-Martin
34 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

As if that definition means anything.

lol

Question... Is it griefing when my knight takes your queen in chess?

It is if you use a foul move as your queen can only make certain moves and the rules of said game are balanced equally so it's really not comparable. This game allows foul moves and so much more. Godmode unpunished along with near all exploits that more often than not compromise another.

 

R* allow exploits and glitches to go unpunished and unattended, along with suggesting a player can challenge. Hardly chess, lol.

 

Cheating and griefing are very much one and the same. To cheat another is to grief them, and R* allow that. R* are the biggest cheats out there though, fines and fees for actually playing the game they suggest/invite you to do. Can't make it up when defending cargo I get the $10k fee and a BS point, it suggests I was playing foul and should have let them destroy it all.

 

Credit where it's due. They struck gold monitising the hell out of the PvP vs PvP/passive vs aggressive market, cute f*ckers.

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kenmy13999
1 hour ago, Smokewood said:

As if that definition means anything.

lol

 

Means a lot more than comments like this and nonsense (which most of your posts are..) lol. 

 

I do think it's relatively funny how you've totally ignored the fact that R* have even implemented one feature so you can get away if people grief you.. 

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AirWolf359
Posted (edited)

 

Quote

This is just a little quote from the site linked under the quote 

Quote

Any method of reversing another player's progress, such as destroying or modifying other players' creations in sandbox games like Minecraft and Terraria. Some games, such as the online segment of Grand Theft Auto V, encourage resetting a player's progress through the destruction of crates, business supplies, and other valuables. This is considered developer-sanctioned griefing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

I think this one is relatively interesting also and something that's often seen in gta, I know at least on person complaining about it..

Quote

Driving vehicles backwards around lapped courses in multiplayer racing games, often done with the intent of crashing head-on into whoever is in first place.

 

Thank you. So even if the developer allows and encourages something, it can still be griefing.

 

1 hour ago, Smokewood said:

As if that definition means anything.

lol

Question... Is it griefing when my knight takes your queen in chess?

It might not hold up in court (I'm not a lawyer), but most people will agree that developer-sanctioned griefing is griefing nonetheless. The developers sanction it just to make the griefers feel better.

As for your question: probably not, unless an illegal move was played. Also depends on what the knight does to the queen after taking her.

Edited by AirWolf359

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Big Molio
6 hours ago, kenmy13999 said:

This is just a little quote from the site linked under the quote 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

 

I think this one is relatively interesting also and something that's often seen in gta, I know at least on person complaining about it.. 

.

.

That page you linked to has a pretty clear opening statement also

 

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways.

 

The "unintended" forms the strongest argument for what constitutes griefing in my book. 

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ilovefreebird
On 6/8/2019 at 9:56 AM, Smokewood said:

Is this a joke thread?

There is no such thing as griefing in GTAO

 

Come meet me in a lobby and I'll not-grief you then...

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Carlin_Stanhope

Most of the time it has to do with people's business sales in free roam getting destroyed by someone else being a dick, but people need to take some personal responsibility ( find a empty lobby before intiating sales). Obviously it's not a 100% fix,( people join randomly sometimes) but seeing people start up sale missions in decently populated lobbies seems reckless. Some people enjoy the thrill of selling in big lobbies for either adrenaline or the high demand bonus, but don't be surprised and pissed when a flying bike or whatever other tools of destruction comes your way.

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kenmy13999
31 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

That page you linked to has a pretty clear opening statement also

 

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in unintended ways.

 

The "unintended" forms the strongest argument for what constitutes griefing in my book. 

The rest of the opening statement after what you copied goes like: 

A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gamingcommunities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2] This creates a strong division between griefing and cheating, since cheating is done with intent of winning the game and thus is discouraged by in-game Penalties

 

I agree that 'unintended ways' forms the strongest argument but that says a whole lot about the rest of the arguments :)

 

But page also have a own definition of griefing in gtao which is considered developer-sanctioned griefing. 

You're of course free to disagree with all of this and it's probably not any universal truth either. 

You know most people see people that goes after others cargo as griefers and you will probably never change that. What does it matter if people see you as a griefer? 

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CanadianMuscle
2 hours ago, Smokewood said:

As if that definition means anything.

lol

Question... Is it griefing when my knight takes your queen in chess?

That's an entirely different form of competition.

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Big Molio
51 minutes ago, kenmy13999 said:

The rest of the opening statement after what you copied goes like: 

 

 

 

I agree that 'unintended ways' forms the strongest argument but that says a whole lot about the rest of the arguments :)

 

But page also have a own definition of griefing in gtao which is considered developer-sanctioned griefing. 

You're of course free to disagree with all of this and it's probably not any universal truth either. 

You know most people see people that goes after others cargo as griefers and you will probably never change that. What does it matter if people see you as a griefer? 

At the end of the day, it's no good relying on wiki pages for anything period.

 

I don't destroy cargo wholesale (I might leave a cheeky proximity mine on one if I am passing and it is unattended) but I don't particularly subscribe either to the idea that it is griefing in the purest sense, unless it is acknowledged by all players that this "griefing" thus forms an inherent and therefore legitimate aspect of the game.

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CanadianMuscle
10 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

At the end of the day, it's no good relying on wiki pages for anything period.

 

I don't destroy cargo wholesale (I might leave a cheeky proximity mine on one if I am passing and it is unattended) but I don't particularly subscribe either to the idea that it is griefing in the purest sense, unless it is acknowledged by all players that this "griefing" thus forms an inherent and therefore legitimate aspect of the game.

Most of the playerbase that's actively engaged in business activity would probably refer to the wiki definition if it's relative to their situation.

 

A few fairly obvious things would have to be taken into account:

 

 

- Considerable effort within both sides? (active competition)

 

- Does the victim have a chance to recover/survive/defend?

 

- Is the reason for attacking justified; for another particular reason? (eg. payback for another offense)

 

- Is the attacker doing it for profit or pleasure?

 

- How do they approach the situation? (Is the attacker incessantly heading for any blip that strikes their attention? Do they get salty about it afterwards?)

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Big Molio
12 minutes ago, CanadianMuscle said:

Most of the playerbase that's actively engaged in business activity would probably refer to the wiki definition if it's relative to their situation.

 

A few fairly obvious things would have to be taken into account:

 

 

- Considerable effort within both sides? (active competition)

 

- Does the victim have a chance to recover/survive/defend?

 

- Is the reason for attacking justified; for another particular reason? (eg. payback for another offense)

 

- Is the attacker doing it for profit or pleasure?

 

- How do they approach the situation? (Is the attacker incessantly heading for any blip that strikes their attention? Do they get salty about it afterwards?)

Somebody earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head about it all really when they suggested that player behaviour is simply down to human nature. It's a "Lord of the Flies" type scenario where zero penalties (in fact, rewards) encourage the worst of human behaviour towards one another. GTAO is the perfect storm of a crime-themed game filled with 1001 different ways to antagonise your fellow player. 

 

Rockstar knew exactly what would happen by putting the most lucrative method of making money in amongst the lawless arena that is Freemode. You can argue about their motives for this all day long, but one of their primary intentions I can see is that in lieu of NPC adversaries, we become the antagonists to each other. The NPCs that are included aren't particularly sophisticated or engaging as far as play goes. They are just token additions to give the illusion of single-player type missions within multiplayer Freemode.

 

The businesses in Freemode have been the cause of so much teeth-gnashing and angst since their introduction, but they gave at least a purpose to being in Freemode, instead of just aimlessly roaming around waiting for an off-lobby job to start.

 

 

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Lonely-Martin
9 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

Somebody earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head about it all really when they suggested that player behaviour is simply down to human nature. It's a "Lord of the Flies" type scenario where zero penalties (in fact, rewards) encourage the worst of human behaviour towards one another. GTAO is the perfect storm of a crime-themed game filled with 1001 different ways to antagonise your fellow player. 

 

Rockstar knew exactly what would happen by putting the most lucrative method of making money in amongst the lawless arena that is Freemode. You can argue about their motives for this all day long, but one of their primary intentions I can see is that in lieu of NPC adversaries, we become the antagonists to each other. The NPCs that are included aren't particularly sophisticated or engaging as far as play goes. They are just token additions to give the illusion of single-player type missions within multiplayer Freemode.

 

The businesses in Freemode have been the cause of so much teeth-gnashing and angst since their introduction, but they gave at least a purpose to being in Freemode, instead of just aimlessly roaming around waiting for an off-lobby job to start.

I get the point about freemode being more dynamic, but would it be less so for you had they kept the armoured trucks or other old events and added to those with more business battles goods and such instead of removing the older stuff?

 

I know for some, as they openly and fairly admit it being worth more to others is a draw, but it doesn't need to be someone's week long grind at stake. If anything, business battles get commended because of their more balanced approach to the tug of war R* seemingly want us having over things.

 

Also, the NPC's are more often than not better with their guns than players would be, lol. They get called Terminator NPC's for a reason. Some are particularly punishing when the helicopters spawn. That's not a complaint as much because I like tougher NPC's, but tougher NPC's and players attacking you is just hardcore at times. Genuinely.

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kenmy13999
11 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

 

 

The businesses in Freemode have been the cause of so much teeth-gnashing and angst since their introduction, but they gave at least a purpose to being in Freemode, instead of just aimlessly roaming around waiting for an off-lobby job to start.

 

 

Freemode was a war zone before business was introduced so nothing really changed in that regard. Why put the business in a total war zone deliberately making it harder to make money? Rhetorical question btw 😉 

 

Just to be clear about one thing, I always sell in as crowded lobbies as possible so I don't have a problem if people come after my cargo 

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CanadianMuscle

^ Probably the best counter there is throughout the game is to just switch sessions. Players play the way they like, I suppose. It is PvE.

 

I do wish what's abused the most for almost any players' immediate access is scaled down, though.

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Big Molio
27 minutes ago, kenmy13999 said:

Freemode was a war zone before business was introduced so nothing really changed in that regard. Why put the business in a total war zone deliberately making it harder to make money? Rhetorical question btw 😉 

 

Just to be clear about one thing, I always sell in as crowded lobbies as possible so I don't have a problem if people come after my cargo 

It was a war zone because there was no real structure or purpose to being there. It was simply a holding area for the most part where players hung around waiting for the off-lobby stuff to start. They put the businesses in the war zone (one reason imo) to give players something to do.

 

I know some people say "Yeah, but it's a week's worth of grind, and some griefer just cost me over a million $GTA"

 

Over a million $GTA?

 

Try racing for it. At an average of $15,000 a win, I would need to win over sixty races to win that same amount in a week. Players stand to clean up if they pull off their sales, no wonder it's deliberately difficult.

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kenmy13999
48 minutes ago, Big Molio said:

 Players stand to clean up if they pull off their sales, no wonder it's deliberately difficult.

They do it anyway by creating solo lobbies or friendly sessions. If the problem was that it's to easy to make money that way, they could at least allow it in invite only with less pay? 

 

There's no risk of losing a weeks worth of grind when racing so it's not that comparable imo. You have griefers that go backwards blocking the tracks etc when racing also but at least you have the choice to race non contact :) at least R* acknowledged that contact races can be a problem so they changed premium races to non contact :)

 

I don't think we'll come to an agreement and that's totally okay because things would be boring if everyone had the same opinion (even tho some things would be nice if everyone thought the same 😉). I have to say that I like that you at least come with some thought out arguments instead of just commenting "nonsense" and other one liners that really don't contribute in any way 👍

 

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KazzMajol
Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 10:03 AM, Smokewood said:

 

I love this game....

 

 

 

I'm with Smokewood.

 

23 hours ago, HamwithCheese said:

I come back because there's nothing else like it. That doesnt mean its a great game

 

Actually, yes, it IS a great game.    Yes, indeed.

 

4 hours ago, kenmy13999 said:

things would be boring if everyone had the same opinion

 

That's a fact, Jack!

 

 

Ah, the eternal struggle... the dog-eat-dog reality under the Dinseyland illusion.    The truth behind the analogies.    The entropy hiding under the sofa of law and order.     Er, what the hell was i talking about?   Griefing?    oh, yeah... hahahahhaha

Edited by KazzMajol
spacing

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HamwithCheese
38 minutes ago, KazzMajol said:

Actually, yes, it IS a great game.    Yes, indeed.

I never said it wasn't. I said that being the only entry in a field doesn't make your product great. 

 

But for the record, I think this game is "okay". Runs like sh*t, plays dumbed down, freemium business model, looks like sh*t, and has a bullsh*t ai. But guess what, I gotta "like it or leave" and, again, since there's no competition, I gotta like it. 

 

They say that competition is good for the customer you know.

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Jenkiiii
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HamwithCheese said:

They say that competition is good for the customer you know.

There is competition. It's called RDRO ;).

 

Just thinking about what I typed above. GTAO's only competition is its own counterpart based in the wild west! That's hilarious :D.

 

 

Edited by Jenkiiii

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kcole4001
5 minutes ago, Jenkiiii said:

There is competition. It's called RDRO ;).

 

...............

 

 

In which they seem to be getting a good balance in place, proving they do indeed know how.

 

Or maybe they see that the profit margin isn't so ridiculously huge for RDR that they can't afford to throw the finger at their customers every chance they get (just speculation).

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KazzMajol
Posted (edited)

@HamwithCheese    Far be it from me to argue with the President of the LS COC.   That's the only car i've never bothered to respray from the original Formula Red i put on four years ago.      8)   Just so happens this stupid game is everything i always wanted.

Edited by KazzMajol
spelling

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Agent 14
On 6/10/2019 at 8:32 AM, Smokewood said:

As if that definition means anything.

lol

Question... Is it griefing when my knight takes your queen in chess?

Why are you reaching so damn hard making strawman arguments. 

 

 

You just really compared griefing to taking down a queen in chess.  

 

.... 

 

No words.

 

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computertech82
48 minutes ago, Agent 14 said:

Why are you reaching so damn hard making strawman arguments. 

 

 

You just really compared griefing to taking down a queen in chess.  

 

.... 

 

No words.

 

If you want to try to make it about a chess move......Then it's basically someone using a king to move 8 spaces forward, and 3 to the side to take out your queen. (hint: no such thing as flying rocket bikes or cars with weapons)

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HamwithCheese

Lol, a normal game of chess is a stretch lol. Its more like, I wanna play a friendly game of chess with players of equal skill, and you have this chess champion that destroys you in minutes, and he keeps forcing you to play chess against him and the only thing you can do is leave the park and throw away your chess set lmao come the f*ck on. 

 

Griefer make you play THEIR game. Over and over again. Wanna walk around the map in peace in passive? They come in and passive bail your ass. Wanna go shopping but you forgot to go passive? They roll up and bomb your ass for no reason. Yet you think it's okay. f*ck it is, gotta take away the ability to fire a gun, in a GTA game, just for a chance at safety. "Ohh its a jungle out there." Boi you f*cks are just savages, you made the jungle.

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