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Display Name

Politics in RDR2 discussion

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Display Name

I just watched this video and wanted to share it. It addresses all the weird political virtue signaling this game has been criticized for since it came out. It sure is weird that Rockstar strayed away from the centrist satire this time, even if it's not a big part of this game. Keep an open mind, watch it and let me know what you think. 

 

 

 

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crazedZ10

All I'm going to say is, that comment section is...wow

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Cutter De Blanc

How come no one says the N word, not even Micah, he cutely refers to them as "darkies" like really?

 

Didn't watch the video because its an hour long

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happygrowls

Gamers and politics never mix well.

 

Just look at all the sh*t gamers get angry over

 

Women in WW2 game = bad and boycott!!!

Black guy ends slavery in alternate ending = bad and boycott literal white genocide!!!

 

Jesus. Gamers are hypocritical.

 

Gamers say games shouldn't be political, yet never were like this when the Modern Warfare series is literal anti-war propaganda, with corruption inside the US itself, and gamers never bat an eye unless there's a woman or some kind of ethnic minority involved, suddenly it's white genocide.

 

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Jabalous
Posted (edited)

The forefront of the game, that is Dutch's gang, is completely detached from the reality of the Old West period. For a reason or another, the writers decided to include some form of forced representation to cover various roles and archetypes, which also made it easier to write dramatic segments and emotional moments. Maybe they said it's not their intention to be historically accurate, but I'd rather they will be next time. There is no issue in taking some liberties in writing some parts that aren't truly accurate to the period, but at least not to the degree that Redemption 2 came out to be. Most Western movies do take liberties, but they also try to maintain some level of accuracy and avoid the usage of political correctness, at least the best of them that I know. 

Edited by Jabalous

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Jimbatron
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

How come no one says the N word, not even Micah, he cutely refers to them as "darkies" like really?

 

Didn't watch the video because its an hour long

You probably ought to. It's truly dreadful, but understanding what's wrong with this video and the author's view of things I think actually highlights what in many ways is going very wrong with western society today. Problems aren't cured by ignoring them, understanding them is key - unfortunately that means occasionally listening to some views you may find offensive.

 

Broadly speaking it sounds to me as if the author sees any critique of racism as and attack on white people - particularly, white southern Americans in this case. He attempts to create a defence by claiming effectively that all people around that time did bad things, for example, citing crimes committed by native Americans. It's actually the common tactic that's been adopted universally by so called "populist" politicians: blame everyone else for sharing their own failings in the hope they can indirectly legitimise their own behaviour.

 

Take for example his thinly veiled defence of the KKK at 37:20 "say what you want about who you deem racist, xenophobes and bigots, but they all have the right to live and be left alone, so long as they do likewise". Now I'm not for a moment advocating retaliatory violence, nor defending the game's honour system. However, it sounds like the author is trying to set the KKK up as a minority group that's being victimised. The KKK are not who they are because of their ethnic background. They make a choice to live by a racist philosophy - that's the difference.

 

The author also makes a statement I find particularly offensive about "more black people having killed other black people than the KKK" (from about 40:20). It sounds very much like again that's attempting to build a defence for the KKK as "not being that bad in the grand scheme of things", but in truth all that statistic points to is simply amounts to there being more murderers (regardless of their ethnicity) than organised murderous racists in the population. The author is careful to throw in some caveats to avoid out and out endorsement of racism, e.g. "the KKK has blood on its hands, but..." nevertheless, his language is an attempt, either conscious or subconscious, to mitigate their actions.

 

Do I think the game is an accurate depiction of Western society or the honour system a good real life moral compass? No. But the fact that R* have been very careful to avoid having a racist protagonist (and this even applies to the deranged Trevor Phillips in GTA V) is not an attack on the white population, as the author seems to misinterpret it as. I don't think the game is trying to make an overall statement that some of the gang's actions in the story are somehow morally absolved, I think it's quite clear that the message is that a life of crime is ultimately self defeating as most of the characters end up dead. It is however interesting to note that the main antagonist who causes most of the problems in the story isn't fundamentally a racist - rather a manipulative narcissist who will do anything to stay in charge - including taking advantage of racial tensions if it furthers his cause. Probably that comparison was subtle enough that, if it's intentional, it flew under the radar of certain individuals with more ego than intelligence. Unfortunately it may also equally be lost on a section of the player base.

 

If this sounds like an unwarranted character assassination of the author based on one video I suggest having a look at some of his other non RDR content and see if you can spot a theme that crops up. I'm not trying to say he's directly or intentionally racist. But I think it's important to call out what's wrong with the attitude he's taking and I doubt he's self analysed it from this angle.

 

Put it this way. I'm white and British. I don't feel the need to defend immoral imperialistic actions committed by the British Empire (e.g. by coming up with some spurious justification that "other countries were trying to do the same thing, just less good at it"). I know it was wrong. But I don't feel that darker period in the history of the place where I grew up has anything to do with me - they were not my choices. To be fair, I might not have had the confidence to state this so boldly in my teenage years, but approaching 40, having travelled much and worked with people of all backgrounds, well, it has an impact on you. How I feel about my country is determined by what is stands for today, and that of the communities I grew up and live in now. And if those change to the point where I disagree with them, they are not mine, and attack on them is not an attack on me.

 

In short, we should not feel the need to defend bad/evil behaviour from anyone just because they happen to be of the same ethnic group or nationality. Racism, xenophobia and other forms of discrimination don't just grow because of hostility to other groups. They fester also because of lack of ability to call out when someone from a group you identify as belonging to does something wrong. But sadly, this point seems lost on many people today.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jimbatron

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Cuzzzin

The video refers to Dutch as a proto-Communist. 

 

The Communist Manifesto was written before Dutch was born. 

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Display Name
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

You probably ought to. It's truly dreadful, but understanding what's wrong with this video and the author's view of things I think actually highlights what in many ways is going very wrong with western society today. Problems aren't cured by ignoring them, understanding them is key - unfortunately that means occasionally listening to some views you may find offensive.

 

Broadly speaking it sounds to me as if the author sees any critique of racism as and attack on white people - particularly, white southern Americans in this case. He attempts to create a defence by claiming effectively that all people around that time did bad things, for example, citing crimes committed by native Americans. It's actually the common tactic that's been adopted universally by so called "populist" politicians: blame everyone else for sharing their own failings in the hope they can indirectly legitimise their own behaviour.

 

Take for example his thinly veiled defence of the KKK at 37:20 "say what you want about who you deem racist, xenophobes and bigots, but they all have the right to live and be left alone, so long as they do likewise". Now I'm not for a moment advocating retaliatory violence, nor defending the game's honour system. However, it sounds like the author is trying to set the KKK up as a minority group that's being victimised. The KKK are not who they are because of their ethnic background. They make a choice to live by a racist philosophy - that's the difference.

 

The author also makes a statement I find particularly offensive about "more black people having killed other black people than the KKK" (from about 40:20). It sounds very much like again that's attempting to build a defence for the KKK as "not being that bad in the grand scheme of things", but in truth all that statistic points to is simply amounts to there being more murderers (regardless of their ethnicity) than organised murderous racists in the population. The author is careful to throw in some caveats to avoid out and out endorsement of racism, e.g. "the KKK has blood on its hands, but..." nevertheless, his language is an attempt, either conscious or subconscious, to mitigate their actions.

 

Do I think the game is an accurate depiction of Western society or the honour system a good real life moral compass? No. But the fact that R* have been very careful to avoid having a racist protagonist (and this even applies to the deranged Trevor Phillips in GTA V) is not an attack on the white population, as the author seems to misinterpret it as. I don't think the game is trying to make an overall statement that some of the gang's actions in the story are somehow morally absolved, I think it's quite clear that the message is that a life of crime is ultimately self defeating as most of the characters end up dead. It is however interesting to note that the main antagonist who causes most of the problems in the story isn't fundamentally a racist - rather a manipulative narcissist who will do anything to stay in charge - including taking advantage of racial tensions if it furthers his cause. Probably that comparison was subtle enough that, if it's intentional, it flew under the radar of certain individuals with more ego than intelligence. Unfortunately it may also equally be lost on a section of the player base.

 

If this sounds like an unwarranted character assassination of the author based on one video I suggest having a look at some of his other non RDR content and see if you can spot a theme that crops up. I'm not trying to say he's directly or intentionally racist. But I think it's important to call out what's wrong with the attitude he's taking and I doubt he's self analysed it from this angle.

 

Put it this way. I'm white and British. I don't feel the need to defend immoral imperialistic actions committed by the British Empire (e.g. by coming up with some spurious justification that "other countries were trying to do the same thing, just less good at it"). I know it was wrong. But I don't feel that darker period in the history of the place where I grew up has anything to do with me - they were not my choices. To be fair, I might not have had the confidence to state this so boldly in my teenage years, but approaching 40, having travelled much and worked with people of all backgrounds, well, it has an impact on you. How I feel about my country is determined by what is stands for today, and that of the communities I grew up and live in now. And if those change to the point where I disagree with them, they are not mine, and attack on them is not an attack on me.

 

In short, we should not feel the need to defend bad/evil behaviour from anyone just because they happen to be of the same ethnic group or nationality. Racism, xenophobia and other forms of discrimination don't just grow because of hostility to other groups. They fester also because of lack of ability to call out when someone from a group you identify as belonging to does something wrong. But sadly, this point seems lost on many people today.

 

 

 

 

 

I think his point is not that any critique of racism is attack on white people, but that it doesn't make sense for someone like Arthur Morgan to care about any of this stuff, because he is a bad person and a killer himself. Having a racist protagonist would probably be too much, but he should definitely be more neutral towards politics. Killing and robbing dozens of people and then helping a black person retrieve his expensive medical equipment for no pay feels just weird... Unless Rockstar starts making role playing games with choices they should focus on having their characters being either good or bad, mixing those two personalities together and switching between them whenever the author feels like throwing in some virtue signaling to modern politics is sh*tty.

Edited by Display Name

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Jimbatron

^ make no mistake, the game is being used as a talking point for the author to discuss his political views. It doesn’t take a full hour to deliver a review of a computer game.

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Cyper
Posted (edited)

Having no politics in a game such as RDR2 is like having no personality traits or behaviour among characters. Like in the real world. Or not. Because politics, as well as personality traits, exist in the real world as well.

 

It is impossible to detach a game such as RDR2 from politics. The game embodies characters, events, opinions in a setting that tries to emulate a living, breathing world with actual characters. Neither is it possible to be as historically accurate as possible in an entertainment product. Therefore, the question is what kind of politics the game should demonstrate or to what extent it should be historically accurate. The reason why people complain about politics being incorporated into games is simple: they don’t like the politics that is brought into the game and/or they're simply unaware that more or less every game out there has what to them is invisible political views. This is why CoD/BF players don't rage or complain about women or blacks being portrayed in WW2 while not complaining about the use of prototype weapons, vehicles, historically inaccurate uniforms, language, or combat behavior that is very, very historically accurate.
 

Edited by Cyper

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~INDIO~

The writers simply weren't good enough to not rely on politics unfortunately.

 

I'm looking for something more like a Sergio Leone western with actual character building, not the typical "Oh my family were slaves, I've had it rough" blah de blah, whine whine whine etc.

This character is black so therefore he must mention slavery in every appearance? No.

I'm sure black people listening that, who just want to play a western game find that sh*t annoying as hell.

The character is female so she must mention how she feels hard done by constantly. Stop.

It's boring and no one wants to hear that sh*t in a video game.

 

Really disappointed in Rockstar for some of the writing, it's just an easy way out for them instead of coming up with dialogue that actually matters.

They need to get some better writers for the next one for sure.

 

RDR1's dialogue was much better IMO

Sergio Leone said If you're going to include politics in your work, do not take a position.

Rockstar took a position of virtue signalling.

 

No bueno, guys.

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~INDIO~

P.S Sadie Adler is the worst character they've ever created 

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Display Name
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ~INDIO~ said:

P.S Sadie Adler is the worst character they've ever created 

Yeah she feels out of place. They went way too over the top with her. They should make her gradually help you more and more instead of becoming this badass outlaw that kills dozens of other outlaws in a span of one mission. In my opinion they should have start with her wanting to go out for a hunt with you. It would make sense, because she was a hunter when she lived in Grizzlies. You go out hunting, when Arthur is surprised that she has more experience in hunting than him. It was told before that Arthur hunted rabbits with a shotgun, so he was pretty bad at it and Adler had an experience, so she gives him some hunting tips. You hunt a bear or something and head back. On your way back you meet bunch of o'Driscolls and they start harassing the two of you, Adler gets angry and starts a shootout. You kill them, mission accomplished. Much better than this weird mission where you go do some groceries and she buys a giant leather duster and kills a random person on a way back... In my concept it's still pretty fast personality change, but at least it's more grounded.

Edited by Display Name

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DirtCheap

I do agree with the guy on some points, like how it's weird that nobody except Lenny says the N-word (not even the Lemoyne Raiders, a neo-Confederate gang), how every minority gets on well with one another in the game despite it being 1899, how Sadie makes fun of good ol' Pearson, how the game makes Tesla look like some bumbling idiot and how Charles is a hypocrite for crying over them buffaloes.

 

However, he does seem to get upset over every Southern stereotype in the game, and how the game portrays the KKK, which is kinda pathetic.

 

 

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CarltonDanks69
On 4/23/2019 at 1:15 PM, happygrowls said:

Gamers and politics never mix well.

 

Just look at all the sh*t gamers get angry over

 

Women in WW2 game = bad and boycott!!!

Black guy ends slavery in alternate ending = bad and boycott literal white genocide!!!

 

Jesus. Gamers are hypocritical.

 

Gamers say games shouldn't be political, yet never were like this when the Modern Warfare series is literal anti-war propaganda, with corruption inside the US itself, and gamers never bat an eye unless there's a woman or some kind of ethnic minority involved, suddenly it's white genocide.

 

 

6 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

The writers simply weren't good enough to not rely on politics unfortunately.

 

I'm looking for something more like a Sergio Leone western with actual character building, not the typical "Oh my family were slaves, I've had it rough" blah de blah, whine whine whine etc.

This character is black so therefore he must mention slavery in every appearance? No.

I'm sure black people listening that, who just want to play a western game find that sh*t annoying as hell.

The character is female so she must mention how she feels hard done by constantly. Stop.

It's boring and no one wants to hear that sh*t in a video game.

 

Really disappointed in Rockstar for some of the writing, it's just an easy way out for them instead of coming up with dialogue that actually matters.

They need to get some better writers for the next one for sure.

 

RDR1's dialogue was much better IMO

Sergio Leone said If you're going to include politics in your work, do not take a position.

Rockstar took a position of virtue signalling.

 

No bueno, guys.

Amen. But I loved Sadie and Charles and Lenny. 

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Equatecurl
On 4/23/2019 at 1:15 PM, happygrowls said:

Gamers and politics never mix well.

 

Just look at all the sh*t gamers get angry over

 

Women in WW2 game = bad and boycott!!!

Black guy ends slavery in alternate ending = bad and boycott literal white genocide!!!

 

Jesus. Gamers are hypocritical.

 

Gamers say games shouldn't be political, yet never were like this when the Modern Warfare series is literal anti-war propaganda, with corruption inside the US itself, and gamers never bat an eye unless there's a woman or some kind of ethnic minority involved, suddenly it's white genocide.

 

Gamers rise up

On 4/23/2019 at 1:13 PM, Cutter De Blanc said:

How come no one says the N word, not even Micah, he cutely refers to them as "darkies" like really?

 

Didn't watch the video because its an hour long

They did sneak it into the mission where you rob shady belle with lenny, you gotta a wait a while before one of the raiders calls lenny it. 

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codedoddertdervbs

That video is worthy of ridicule. The guy clearly has his own opinions on politics which he tries to shoehorn into his view of the game. These views are very poorly informed and the state of the comments section tells a story in itself. Both are full of far-right dogwhistles. He obviously wanted a game set in the past to be a little safe space for himself as it was more acceptable to be racist and sexist then. 

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UndeadPotat0

Nobody:

Epic alpha gamers: Portraying racism or sexism in a time where both happened often is virtue signaling 😎

 

 

I'm so smart. 

 

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UpTheDowngrade

At 20:54 into that Elliptical Politics video, during the buffalo hunting side quest, how do you get that blue Everyday shirt, to be unbuttoned that much? Am I missing something obvious? I think i've only seen that in a pre-release screenshot?

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GinsengElixir

If you speak to the foreman at appleseed and sell him stuff, during the cutscene your neckwear disappears and shirt becomes unbuttoned like that...

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D T
Posted (edited)

Yo, just to be entirely clear - the guy who uploaded this video is an actual neo-nazi. You can see for yourself he's literally following David Duke (former KKK member) and other alt-right figures (a movement formed by neo-nazis) on twitter and constantly tweets out white supremacist talking points. Don't fall for his sh*t. Every point he attempts to make in this video is an effort to move you closer to those ideas. Just halfway through the video he sympathizes with the KKK.

 

It f*cking sucks but a trend on youtube these past few years has been to spread their ideology through video essays for popular videogames and tv shows. It's extremely important to keep in mind these people try their hardest to present their sh*t ideas in a way that's not immediately recognizable. These are the same type of people who praise mass shootings like the ones we saw in New Zealand or even recently in California.

Edited by D T

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HeyThereFriend

Haven't watched yet but honestly weather it's offensive or not, they should stay true to history. Micah was clearly racist towards Charles and Lenny and so they included it, as they should. The men in Rhodes not wanting women to vote was in the game, as it should be, that is how it was. I don't think changing history for the sake of not offending someone is a good idea. People are offended by every little thing these days, it's quite sickening.

 

Games are entertainment. I don't want politics in my games. There is a line though, remaining historically accurate is fine, history is history, you can't change that and nor should you. A bad example of politics in games is Mortal Kombat 11, the developers are pushing their political opinions into the game and onto their customers, this is wrong and should not be tolerated. I didn't buy MK11 because Blaze or Onaga or any fun character wasn't included but the political reasons adds to me not buying it.

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Spider-Vice

This topic has gone way, way too far, and the politically charged, racist discourse enacted by the video creator isn't something we want here. So let's nip this in the bud because we're already seeing some nasty stuff in here.

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