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crazedZ10

Does anyone else think that Micah is poorly written?

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DirtCheap

I think R* should have made Micah like Big Smoke i.e. likable up until the betrayal.

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mde2
1 hour ago, JavierC said:

No need, you just need to see a cutscene from that era and one from Red II. Is crystal clear. 

Again. There's no point here and you're adding nothing to the discussion. What difference does a cutscene from GTA IV or even RDR have to RDR2 apart from better graphics?

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codedoddertdervbs
On 4/11/2019 at 1:13 PM, codedoddertdervbs said:

He was a missed opportunity I think. The game did a great job giving distinct personalities to such a big gang and to so many other characters. I like the way Bill was written in particular, it gave him a lot more depth and justification to how he acted in the second game. Similarly with Javier. But with Micah, although R* did a good job of making everyone hate him, this is only because he has no redeeming qualities at all.

 

A well written villain would have presented the player moral dilemmas or at least some insight into their motivations. With Micah we didn't really get that. He was just a less comical Trevor Phillips. There was nothing that tied the player to him, made him look like a worthy member of the gang, or gave the player any benefit during the whole game. The moment we found out who the rat was should've made us sad.

I've been reading the 'Retcons and continuity errors' thread and revised this opinion a bit now. I've come to realise that Micah shouldn't have had such a major role in the story at all. The way that Javier is described in RDR1 makes me think that a lot of the dislikeable traits that are given to Micah (creepiness towards women in camp, bad influence on Dutch, general cynicism and sleaziness) are canonically described as how Javier acted around the downfall of the gang.

 

It seems to me that those have been incorporated into Micah's character and made it confused and contradictory. There's the whole 'I'm a survivor blacklung' thing which is contradicted by his hot-headed recklessness in missions, and unpopular behaviour in camp. What would've been more effective? Maybe the actual consistent portrayal of Micah as 'a survivor' who is: 

1) still a very good gunner 

2) still away from camp a lot during the first 2 chapters

3) still maintains a bit of bad behaviour without it being so phoned in and obvious that he'll be an eventual antagonist

4) still the rat, justifying the whole 'survivor' trait

5) toned down personality-wise to give the player at least a bit of disappointment/insight when its discovered he is the rat

6?) maybe a role reversal in Guarma where he's kidnapped and Arthur is left with Javier? I remember the Guarma bit where you're just left with Micah as quite a calcifying moment of how creepy and untrustworthy a character he is

 

Let me know what your thoughts are on this

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crazedZ10
Posted (edited)

Long post

 

I've been thinking. What if Micah and Arthur actually got along? They're both pretty similar; career criminals, around the same age etc.

 

From the beginning, don't have him chase Sadie around instead make him knock he over a latern defending himself against her. Instead of complaing about darkies, just have him only complain about Bill. Have him kill someone who was annoying Lenny in Strawberry instead. When Lenny comes to tell Dutch the news just have Dutch be disappointed and say he'll get Javier but then have Arthur say "I'll get him and talk some sense into him while I'm at it" or something. You get the point 

 

Near the end don't have him be evil or whatever. Have that be a mental Dutch who keeps doing crazy things because Bill and Javier never disagree with him

 

The reason I'd have him turn is because:

- They lose the Blackwater money

- They lose the savings in chapter 4 (I know this doesn't happen but it makes sense, the remaining members didn't know where it was and the pinkertons used to inspect Shady Belle, they probably dug it up one day)

- He knows Dutch is crazy and is going to kill then all, he thinks that by setting up Dutch the gang can live free. 

Edited by crazedZ10

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SinisterRaccoon
9 minutes ago, crazedZ10 said:

Long post

 

I've been thinking. What if Micah and Arthur actually got along? They're both pretty similar; career criminals, around the same age etc.

 

From the beginning, don't have him chase Sadie around instead make him knock he over a latern defending himself against her. Instead of complaing about darkies, just have him only complain about Bill. Have him kill someone who was annoying Lenny in Strawberry instead. When Lenny comes to tell Dutch the news just have Dutch be disappointed and say he'll get Javier but then have Arthur say "I'll get him and talk some sense into him while I'm at it" or something. You get the point 

 

Near the end don't have him be evil or whatever. Have that be a mental Dutch who keeps doing crazy things because Bill and Javier never disagree with him

 

The reason I'd have him turn is because:

- They lose the Blackwater money

- They lose the savings in chapter 4 (I know this doesn't happen but it makes sense, the remaining members didn't know where it was and the pinkertons used to inspect Shady Belle, they probably dug it up one day)

- He knows Dutch is crazy and is going to kill then all, he thinks that by setting up Dutch the gang can live free. 

That ain't it chief. The point of micah as a plot device is to get dutch to give in to his darker side. It works better imo then him going off the handle bc of lost money. 

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Keano
Posted (edited)

Micah was my favorite antagonist since Tennpenny and Pulaski. I liked Tennpenny to an extent because Samuel L. Jackson but Pulaski was a dick and a kiss ass and killing him was so satisfying in High Noon. Micah would be on Pulaski's level for me...maybe even more. He's such a dick from the minute he shoots up Strawberry and it just escalates from there and lets not forget his comments in Chapter I about sharing a room with Lenny, Charles and Bill. Killing him was definitely something I looked forward to and felt elated when I finally got to do it. 

Edited by Keano

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SinisterRaccoon
Just now, Keano said:

Micah was my favorite antagonist since Tennpenny and Pulaski. I liked Tennpenny to an extent because Samuel L. Jackson but Pulaski was a dick and a kiss ass and killing him was so satisfying in High Noon. Micah would be on Pulaski's level for me. He's such a dick from the minute he shoots up Strawberry and it just escalates. Killing him was definitely something I looked forward to and felt elated when I finally got to do it. 

Micah felt like a more layered and sadistic version of pulaski. 

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Keano
1 hour ago, UndeadPotat0 said:

Micah felt like a more layered and sadistic version of pulaski. 

Agreed. Pulaski was layered for a 3D Era character but Micah was turned up to 11 in my opinion. 

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BoulderFaceplant

Rockstar is very good at making antagonists we love to despise. Big Smoke, Gary, etc. On top of that, they clearly wanted Micah to represent pure evil. 

 

But the difference here is that we’re forced to interact with Micah CONSTANTLY, and he never shows ANY redeeming qualities. With Big Smoke and Gary, we spent enough time with them to know they were self-centered jerks. Now imagine if we had to stay with these two, seeing countless examples of how they just so happen to be despicable in every way imaginable. It would’ve gotten old fast, and it sure as sh*t did for Micah. The game just relentlessly piles on these instances as the story proceeds. 

“He’s a racist.” Oh, I guess there were a lot of bigots back then. 

”He’s sadistic.” Yeah, he’s definitely not a good person.

“He’s a bully.” Wow, I love to hate this guy

”He’s manipulative.” Obviously he’s the antagonist then

”He hates other people in general.” Um, okay?

”He’s EXTREMELY sadistic.” We get it

”He’s an EXTREME bully, even though that would undermine his goal to be Dutch’s favorite.” Wow, this is getting stupid. 

“He makes fun of people because they are terminally ill.” Okay! Jesus!

”He killed the cute doggie.” Of course he did, just throw in the kitchen sink at this point. 

“He’s betrayed the entire gang.” Well no sh*t, what a non-surprise. 

“It’s 1907 and he’s been a mass-murdering terrorist for years now.” Holy sh*t why?! 

 

Micah has way too many reasons for us to dislike him, most of them superfluous and robbing him of any depth. Unlike Gary and Big Smoke, Micah is despicable in ways he doesn’t need to be, as I illustrated, to the point where he’s actively undermining his own plans by being such a bully. 

 

Even the way other characters interact with him is one-dimensional. Everyone is either anticipating something unpleasant or reacting to something unpleasant. We never see anyone (aside from Dutch) extending words of kindness towards Micah, so we simply never see him even pretending to be nice. It’s so boring. 

 

Micah should’ve been done very differently. Imagine this seemingly kind figure who opens his heart to the boys around the campfire, sings along at parties, compliments people around him, and generally carries a positive attitude. And then, when Agent Milton reveals he’s been ratting out the gang, it’s just mind-blowing! You would feel this intense rage and genuine sense of betrayal, at this man who threw everything away for a big pile of money. That’s what made Big Smoke work. That’s what made Lance Vance work. Imagine that feeling but amplified. That’s what we missed out on. 

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UnexpectedParole

 

Quote

Micah should’ve been done very differently. Imagine this seemingly kind figure who opens his heart to the boys around the campfire, sings along at parties, compliments people around him, and generally carries a positive attitude. And then, when Agent Milton reveals he’s been ratting out the gang, it’s just mind-blowing! You would feel this intense rage and genuine sense of betrayal, at this man who threw everything away for a big pile of money. That’s what made Big Smoke work. That’s what made Lance Vance work. Imagine that feeling but amplified. That’s what we missed out on. 

 

Boulder, I get all that. And I think that is a very reasonable post.

 

 

I worry though, that if you got the intense rage and genuine sense of betrayal by Micah, that would have lessened the guilt of Dutch in all this.  -Which I think is the real point.

"Dutch this guy is a serious issue, why is he still here?" - arthur.

"Because I see the good in him" -Dutch reply.

"Seriously dude? WTF?"

"We need more $. I have a plan."

 

"Why don't we do it the old way anymore? Micah doesn't do things the old way. Micah is not family. We used to be family" etc.etc.

Micah is a killer outlaw and that isn't a safe way to live anymore. Plus he doesn't care about any of us..." etc. etc.

 

"Have some faith Arthur."..

 

if it were a suprise that it was Micah, then it would not be Dutch's fault. In this story it was Dutch's fault.

How did you feel when Molly revealed it was her that was the Rat? How powerful of a let down was that? Were you surprised? Did you feel like it was Dutch's fault?

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~INDIO~

Still better written than Charles and Sadie. (The true morons of the group) I would've liked Charles if he would have contributed ANYTHING, but sadly he was too much of a lazy cunt.

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The Odyssey
2 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

Still better written than Charles and Sadie. (The true morons of the group) I would've liked Charles if he would have contributed ANYTHING, but sadly he was too much of a lazy cunt.

yeah cause im sure john would have been able to reconstruct beechers hope solely with the help of uncle 

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crazedZ10
8 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

Still better written than Charles and Sadie. (The true morons of the group) I would've liked Charles if he would have contributed ANYTHING, but sadly he was too much of a lazy cunt.

1 thing that's always pissed me off about Charles is that he would sucker punch me over a few sarcastic humoures remarks but turns a blind eye when micah pisses everyone else off. Such an asshole, what about him Charles you coward (still love ya though)

 

 

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crazedZ10
Posted (edited)
On 4/18/2019 at 1:50 AM, BoulderFaceplant said:

Rockstar is very good at making antagonists we love to despise. Big Smoke, Gary, etc. On top of that, they clearly wanted Micah to represent pure evil. 

 

But the difference here is that we’re forced to interact with Micah CONSTANTLY, and he never shows ANY redeeming qualities. With Big Smoke and Gary, we spent enough time with them to know they were self-centered jerks. Now imagine if we had to stay with these two, seeing countless examples of how they just so happen to be despicable in every way imaginable. It would’ve gotten old fast, and it sure as sh*t did for Micah. The game just relentlessly piles on these instances as the story proceeds. 

“He’s a racist.” Oh, I guess there were a lot of bigots back then. 

”He’s sadistic.” Yeah, he’s definitely not a good person.

“He’s a bully.” Wow, I love to hate this guy

”He’s manipulative.” Obviously he’s the antagonist then

”He hates other people in general.” Um, okay?

”He’s EXTREMELY sadistic.” We get it

”He’s an EXTREME bully, even though that would undermine his goal to be Dutch’s favorite.” Wow, this is getting stupid. 

“He makes fun of people because they are terminally ill.” Okay! Jesus!

”He killed the cute doggie.” Of course he did, just throw in the kitchen sink at this point. 

“He’s betrayed the entire gang.” Well no sh*t, what a non-surprise. 

“It’s 1907 and he’s been a mass-murdering terrorist for years now.” Holy sh*t why?! 

 

Micah has way too many reasons for us to dislike him, most of them superfluous and robbing him of any depth. Unlike Gary and Big Smoke, Micah is despicable in ways he doesn’t need to be, as I illustrated, to the point where he’s actively undermining his own plans by being such a bully. 

 

Even the way other characters interact with him is one-dimensional. Everyone is either anticipating something unpleasant or reacting to something unpleasant. We never see anyone (aside from Dutch) extending words of kindness towards Micah, so we simply never see him even pretending to be nice. It’s so boring. 

 

Micah should’ve been done very differently. Imagine this seemingly kind figure who opens his heart to the boys around the campfire, sings along at parties, compliments people around him, and generally carries a positive attitude. And then, when Agent Milton reveals he’s been ratting out the gang, it’s just mind-blowing! You would feel this intense rage and genuine sense of betrayal, at this man who threw everything away for a big pile of money. That’s what made Big Smoke work. That’s what made Lance Vance work. Imagine that feeling but amplified. That’s what we missed out on. 

thank you! this sums up my thoughts better than I ever could 

Edited by crazedZ10
up

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~INDIO~
9 hours ago, The Odyssey said:

yeah cause im sure john would have been able to reconstruct beechers hope solely with the help of uncle 

Did he ever bring in anything for the group? Nope

Uncle was more useful than Charles, sorry if this hurts your feelings

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f(x)ck

I knew Arthur should've left that guy to rot in jail

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UnexpectedParole
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, crazedZ10 said:

1 thing that's always pissed me off about Charles is that he would sucker punch me over a few sarcastic humoures remarks but turns a blind eye when micah pisses everyone else off. Such an asshole, what about him Charles you coward (still love ya though)

 

 

 

16 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

Did he ever bring in anything for the group? Nope

Uncle was more useful than Charles, sorry if this hurts your feelings

 

I did not have these experiences. This is interesting to me. Did anyone  react to Micah being a jerk? There were only a few times the game would even let me as Arthur reply / respond to Micah being a jerk. And I certainly don't recall anyone else stepping in. He was a jerk to the Dog, Susan, Abigail, Lenny and whom else I don't recall. But I can't call Charles out for not responding when no-one else does either. As for sucker punches from Charles? You antagonized him. What else did you want?  Did you also antagonize anyone else and how did they respond?  I only antagonized Micah and he got grumpy a few times in return, but he was afraid of me and losing his place in the gang. 

 

Charles vs Uncle. Surely you are exagerating for dramatic effect, or I missed something. -During the first 6 chapters at at least?

 

In camp. Charles is always fixing wagons, sharpening the axe to cut lumber, and taking turns standing guard. Uncle drinks, naps, and sings.

The only mission I recall they were on together, which was chapter 3 robbing the stage coach and hiding in the barn. Uncle was nest to worthless I'm pretty sure I had to kill the fellow who he jumped in the woods. And Charles killed folk event though he and Bill got pinned down. 

Chapter 1 Charles teaches Arthur the bow and how to hunt to get food to feed everyone while Uncle drinks in camp with Pearson.

Charles comes along on the chapter 2 train robbery with Sean and John and handles himself just fine.

Uncle does nothing of use during ch 2. Polite Society Valentine style. 

Charles handles himself just fine when ch 2 mission scouting Dewberry creek and during the fight at Clemmons cove. In fact as Arthur credits him, he is the one who points out Clemmons cove is the better location for camp.

He goes on the mission to get Jack back in chapter 3 and kills Braithwaites. 

Charles defends the camp in chapter 4 during the O'Driscoll raid. Does he ride with to get Bronte as well?

Charles leads the cops/pinkertons away from the group so the Boys could get away from San Denis after the botched bank robbery in chapter 4.

All of the dialog I heard in my game was that it was Charles and Sadie who looked after the gang 

while the other men vacation in Guarma (and John was in custody), -Chapter 5.

Charles went on several missions in chapter 6 as well. Rescuing the Indian son. the attack on the factory?

Chapter 6 Uncle and Pearson slip off right?

 

What did I miss that Uncle did aside from nap in camp and drink or sing, or get tossed from bars in Valentine?

Edited by UnexpectedParole
I forgot the napping

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Smokewood

No, he is the best written character in the game, easily. Dutch is also very well written..

 

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Smokewood
Posted (edited)

lol, You guys are all acting like Arthur was a good guy. LOL The entire gang was a bunch of low life criminal losers. Micha was no worse than Tilly! Out of all the gang members, Mary-Beth was the only 1 close to being a good person. Why was she even with the gang? 

Edited by Smokewood
spelling

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UnexpectedParole
6 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

lol, You guys are all acting like Arthur was a good guy. LOL The entire gang was a bunch of low life criminal losers. Micha was no worse than Tilly! Out of all the gang members, Mary-beth was the only 1 close to being a god person. Why was she even with the gang? 

 

I'll agree Arthur was a bad man.  He did very terrible things.  That doesn't make him evil. I also don't think that makes them low life losers especially in that time period and area . Your mileage may vary I guess.

 

Tilly was a crook who stole to get by. She killed a man to protect herself from him when he tried to abuse her. Other than that, she helped in camp, on stage robberies, and with Jack..

 

But Micah mistreated and killed folks because he liked it. That is much worse.

And that isn't even getting into the in camp conversations where Micah treats everyone like dirt. Tilly was nice to everyone. Again, Micah was much worse.

 

I don't recall if the story of how Mary-Beth (or Karen) got into the gang was told. She was a thief and I believe a prostitute, they liked young prostitutes and sometimes pretty girls are good at getting information for the men to do jobs. Not to mention the sewing and cleaning around camp.  

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BoulderFaceplant
9 hours ago, crazedZ10 said:

thank you! this sums up my thoughts better than I ever could 

Another thing is that Micah would be more mysterious if he were nice up until the betrayal. How much of it was genuine, we would wonder. There would be two trains of thought: that Micah was a sociopath who was planning the betrayal all along, or he was a truly good person who fell victim to the allure of freedom and fortune. 

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The Odyssey
11 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

Did he ever bring in anything for the group? Nope

Uncle was more useful than Charles, sorry if this hurts your feelings

Why would this hurt my feelings? Its pretty clear you played a different game to the rest of us 

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SonOfLiberty

After the colossal f*ck up of GTA V's antagonists Micah is a God send. Seriously.

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Cutter De Blanc

Other than his superhuman gunslinging abilities,  I don't find him to be unrealistically evil. Some people are just sh*tty human beings, like Micah.

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RJX74

I gotta say, I really don't get what his deal was in the final mission of chapter 6, for the high honor ending.

 

Spoiler

He chased me up a mountain just so he could beat me up, then walk away? And he forgets one of his revolvers on the mountain too.

 

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crazedZ10
9 hours ago, RJX74 said:

I gotta say, I really don't get what his deal was in the final mission of chapter 6, for the high honor ending.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

He chased me up a mountain just so he could beat me up, then walk away? And he forgets one of his revolvers on the mountain too.

 

Yeah the ending was kinda weird. I do think Arthur and Micah needed a confrontation and Arthur and Dutch definitely needed a final confrontation. If I were to change it id have option 1 be Arthur going against his moral code and taking revenge on Micah and option 2 be to make sure John gets away. Habr it all be the same then but After the fight with Micah where Dutch steps in have Micah say "come on Dutch let's get the money" but Dutch walks away. After that change instantly to john (like in the first game with jack) because I don't really like the way the tone changes from Arthur's death to Abigail shouting at John 

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Jabalous

What was Micah's ultimate plan anyway? It's the only thing that I don't understand well, and I'm not sure if there's an actual and direct answer to that, so it's left to interpretation. Was he planning to disintegrate the gang and eventually lead Dutch to a Pinkerton's trap and they let him go as a part of the deal? He'll also leave with the hidden money? What were his intentions anyway? Also if he was in bed with the Pinkertons, how did they let him go away and start another gang of his own to rob and kill people? After he was killed in the mountains, Ross and Fordham were seen going to his hideout and checking on his dead body, but how did they know and why? 

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Oldsport
34 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

What was Micah's ultimate plan anyway? It's the only thing that I don't understand well, and I'm not sure if there's an actual and direct answer to that, so it's left to interpretation. Was he planning to disintegrate the gang and eventually lead Dutch to a Pinkerton's trap and they let him go as a part of the deal? He'll also leave with the hidden money? What were his intentions anyway? Also if he was in bed with the Pinkertons, how did they let him go away and start another gang of his own to rob and kill people? After he was killed in the mountains, Ross and Fordham were seen going to his hideout and checking on his dead body, but how did they know and why? 

i think micah was going to give dutch in to the agent ross and fordham, thats why ross and fordham was on their way up there

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Rafae S

Everything was a motive to get him closer to that Blackwater money.

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Jabalous
8 hours ago, Oldsport said:

i think micah was going to give dutch in to the agent ross and fordham, thats why ross and fordham was on their way up there

And he thinks they would let him get away with everything? He formed a gang of his own and continued terrorizing people and towns despite the all the gold he had with him in the hideout. Were the Pinkertons OK with his doings as long as they give them Dutch? Maybe, but I doubt they'd have let him slip away with it in an alternative universe, same as they've done to Marston at the end.  

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