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crazedZ10

Does anyone else think that Micah is poorly written?

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crazedZ10

I always see people praising Rockstar by saying that "because you hate him that means he's a good antagonist" but really? There's nothing to him other than he's a dick. He's like a charectar straight out of a children's cartoon, he's evil because he's...evil. 5 minutes into the game and he chases a woman around her house, burns it to the ground and then says he doesn't want to sleep with "darkies". They do EVERY bad guy trope they can squeeze in. They don't even bother to explain to us why he's evil, he just shouts out his lame "I'm a surviver" line which makes 0 sense because he's always putting himself in dangerous situations. And oh yeah, he's the snitch as well. How could you say he's superbly written? And then in the epilogue they need to make sure you still hate him by just casualy saying that he killed an entire family and a little girl, because that's what he does huh. He just sauntered by a house and dicided to kill everyone? 

 

I think he's a lame character especially compared to the other antagonists, Milton and Dutch.

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JumpingKentFlash
10 minutes ago, crazedZ10 said:

I always see people praising Rockstar by saying that "because you hate him that means he's a good antagonist" but really? There's nothing to him other than he's a dick. He's like a charectar straight out of a children's cartoon, he's evil because he's...evil. 5 minutes into the game and he chases a woman around her house, burns it to the ground and then says he doesn't want to sleep with "darkies". They do EVERY bad guy trope they can squeeze in. They don't even bother to explain to us why he's evil, he just shouts out his lame "I'm a surviver" line which makes 0 sense because he's always putting himself in dangerous situations. And oh yeah, he's the snitch as well. How could you say he's superbly written? And then in the epilogue they need to make sure you still hate him by just casualy saying that he killed an entire family and a little girl, because that's what he does huh. He just sauntered by a house and dicided to kill everyone? 

 

I think he's a lame character especially compared to the other antagonists, Milton and Dutch.

Make yerself scarce

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Oldsport

i think hes well written actually. im guessing hes the way he is because of his dad? i know that him and his dad murdered someone when micah was younger so i always figure he got his evil traits from his dad. also probably why he looks up to dutch so much, as a father figure. i feel like dutch was only a bad guy cause they didnt accept him, like he wouldve been cool if arthur wasnt rude to him. idk when he became a snitch though

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JavierC

He's a cartoon, just like Trevor.

 

Don't know what happened to rockstar writing these years.

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RJX74
4 hours ago, crazedZ10 said:

I always see people praising Rockstar by saying that "because you hate him that means he's a good antagonist" but really? There's nothing to him other than he's a dick. He's like a charectar straight out of a children's cartoon, he's evil because he's...evil. 5 minutes into the game and he chases a woman around her house, burns it to the ground and then says he doesn't want to sleep with "darkies". They do EVERY bad guy trope they can squeeze in. They don't even bother to explain to us why he's evil, he just shouts out his lame "I'm a surviver" line which makes 0 sense because he's always putting himself in dangerous situations. And oh yeah, he's the snitch as well. How could you say he's superbly written? And then in the epilogue they need to make sure you still hate him by just casualy saying that he killed an entire family and a little girl, because that's what he does huh. He just sauntered by a house and dicided to kill everyone? 

 

I think he's a lame character especially compared to the other antagonists, Milton and Dutch.

Yeah I really didn't feel there was anything special about him. Comically evil character with no redeeming traits ended up being the final villian.

 

I liked Agent Milton much more.

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crazedZ10
2 hours ago, Oldsport said:

i think hes well written actually. im guessing hes the way he is because of his dad? i know that him and his dad murdered someone when micah was younger so i always figure he got his evil traits from his dad. also probably why he looks up to dutch so much, as a father figure. i feel like dutch was only a bad guy cause they didnt accept him, like he wouldve been cool if arthur wasnt rude to him. idk when he became a snitch though

Well written...I disagree. Like I said EVERY bad guy trope they could, that isn't good writing in my opinion.

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Nurolight

I would've love RDR2 so much more without Micah. Dutch's decent into madness would've been so much more of a tragedy without it seeming like a little devil was on his shoulder.

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Kumieee

On paper, his antics are pretty moustache-twirly but I think what people like most about his character is his way of manipulating and corrupting Dutch at his lowest point and turning him into the madman we see 12 years later, and basically creating a butterfly effect which kicks off the plot of the first game with his murder.

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Jimbatron
Posted (edited)

I disagree.

 

RDR2 is blessed with multi dimensional characters who are complex and conflicted. Take Bill Williamson for example, a man of many flaws, but one of the first to offer to help rescue Jack when he is taken by the Braithwaites.

 

Micah is indeed an out and out bad guy and it's hard to find a redeeming feature. If a whole host of characters were like that then it would amount to poor writing. However, in real life unfortunately there are some people who are driven primarily by malice. And you'd probably expect in a gang of outlaws there would be someone like this in the mix. Micah works because of how he plays off the more complex Dutch van de Linde, showing the problems when leadership mistakes agreement for loyalty and becomes open to a malign influence.

 

I'd agree that Dutch is the more impressive antagonist, indeed I think the character somewhat steals the show. But Dutch doesn't work in this plot how he does without Micah being there to expose his failings.

Edited by Jimbatron

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~INDIO~

What's so interesting about Dutch though? The guys a moron who blindly follows some bullsh*t a writer put in his books

 

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Jimbatron
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

What's so interesting about Dutch though? The guys a moron who blindly follows some bullsh*t a writer put in his books

 

I think he is an accurate depiction of the flaws many have who rise to leadership on the strength of their charisma. He’s in love with the idea of being an intellectual leader  with a moral code rather than understanding what’s really required.

 

Competancy is neither here nor there for what makes a character well written or not. I sometimes get the impression though people evaluate characters more by whether they aspire to be like them (in some aspects) rather than the realism surrounding their concept.

Edited by Jimbatron

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Oldsport

if there was any character badly written, its dutch.

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Cyper
Posted (edited)

In my opinion the problem is that R* went to far with Micah. He way of being evil feels to forced. In a similar way Saddie Adler feels too excessive or her behaviour too forced. She basically went from a regular woman to a crazed killer on a revenge mission - with more or less no transition in between. Unless she has another history we don't know about.

 

But I do not think Micah is a poorly written character. To say that is to go to far.

Edited by Cyper

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crazedZ10
7 hours ago, Oldsport said:

if there was any character badly written, its dutch.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I really didn't like the direction they went with Dutch. I wanted him to be a charismatic, component gang leader who topples when the pressure gets too much for him to handle but you kinda feel for him because he believes he's doing what's best for the gang. At least that's the idea I formed from Marston in 1911. instead we got this incompetent moron who can't plan anything out and only thinks about himself. it begs the question, why did everyone stick with him for more than 5 minutes

 

OK so I am underselling him because he was an interesting charecter in the game but still I just think there was a lot more to be done

 

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Jimbatron
20 minutes ago, crazedZ10 said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I really didn't like the direction they went with Dutch. I wanted him to be a charismatic, component gang leader who topples when the pressure gets too much for him to handle but you kinda feel for him because he believes he's doing what's best for the gang. At least that's the idea I formed from Marston in 1911. instead we got this incompetent moron who can't plan anything out and only thinks about himself. it begs the question, why did everyone stick with him for more than 5 minutes

 

OK so I am underselling him because he was an interesting charecter in the game but still I just think there was a lot more to be done

 

I read it as a function of the point they pick up the story of the gang. It’s just after the Blackwater robbery, when Dutch is past is peak and into his descent. A lot of the characters talk about the good he did for them, consistent with what John says in RDR. But we just don’t see that part. I agree it would be interesting, but not having that part of the gangs story in the game didn’t detract from my enjoyment of it.

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RyuNova

I think the term is a foil? I may be using it wrong but thats the term.

Hes supposed to be the biggest f*cking dick in the story when compared against Arthur. Nothing Arthur can do in the game will make him a bigger dick than Micah so the player can justify their actions. Arthur is (can be) a bad bad man but Micah will always be worse.

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UnexpectedParole
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, RyuNova said:

I think the term is a foil? I may be using it wrong but thats the term.

Hes supposed to be the biggest f*cking dick in the story when compared against Arthur. Nothing Arthur can do in the game will make him a bigger dick than Micah so the player can justify their actions. Arthur is (can be) a bad bad man but Micah will always be worse.

I'm pretty sure foil applies here. Heel might also as well.

 

In this last play through I started hanging around camp more, all times of the day trying to trigger camp requests, and just enjoying the multitudes of conversations that went on to tell the story behind the missions.

And Micah really is a jerk in camp as well. He never embraces the gang as family.  He is particularly nasty to Abigail and  Ms. Grimshaw. He's brutal to the dog, and not nice to Lenny or Charles.

 

I can't recall any interactions with John, Javier or Bill off-hand or any of the other ladies, but my memory is sh*te too. So who knows? The guy was a real piece of work. And, I think that was the point to show as bad as Arthur was, he wasn't as bad as he could have been. 

Edited by UnexpectedParole

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SinisterRaccoon
Posted (edited)
On 4/7/2019 at 3:31 PM, JavierC said:

He's a cartoon, just like Trevor.

 

Don't know what happened to rockstar writing these years.

Oh ya bc f*cking catalina and big smoke where the deepest characters ever. Come on now. 

Edited by UndeadPotat0

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codedoddertdervbs

He was a missed opportunity I think. The game did a great job giving distinct personalities to such a big gang and to so many other characters. I like the way Bill was written in particular, it gave him a lot more depth and justification to how he acted in the second game. Similarly with Javier. But with Micah, although R* did a good job of making everyone hate him, this is only because he has no redeeming qualities at all.

 

A well written villain would have presented the player moral dilemmas or at least some insight into their motivations. With Micah we didn't really get that. He was just a less comical Trevor Phillips. There was nothing that tied the player to him, made him look like a worthy member of the gang, or gave the player any benefit during the whole game. The moment we found out who the rat was should've made us sad.

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King Vercetti
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, UndeadPotat0 said:

Oh ya bc f*cking catalina and big smoke where the deepest characters ever. Come on now. 

 

THANK YOU. I absolutely love ALL the older GTAs, but it’s hilarious to me when people say things like, “the writing used to be sooo much better”...

 

like REALLY?! In the 3D era, when Rockstar essentially just knocked off as many pop culture references as possible and packaged it all together as a “story”? Lol come on. 

 

(Also before anyone gets pissy, Vice City is still to this day my favorite game in the series, I’m not knocking the older games at all, I love them to death. But vehicles for  timeless storytelling, they were not lol.)

Edited by King Vercetti

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Jason

I feel like they were worried people would like him and get mad at him being a snitch so they made him the most unlikable character they possibly could. It's not bad, it's just not great either. I think they should have shown more of his growing influence over Dutch cause it's sorta odd how that plays out. if we saw him chipping away at Dutch more I think they wouldn't have had to go so full on with the "I'm a real bad guy!" stuff.

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SinisterRaccoon
37 minutes ago, King Vercetti said:

 

THANK YOU. I absolutely love ALL the older GTAs, but it’s hilarious to me when people say things like, “the writing used to be sooo much better”...

 

like REALLY?! In the 3D era, when Rockstar essentially just knocked off as many pop culture references as possible and packaged it all together as a “story”? Lol come on. 

 

(Also before anyone gets pissy, Vice City is still to this day my favorite game in the series, I’m not knocking the older games at all, I love them to death. But vehicles for  timeless storytelling, they were not lol.)

I agree. Rockstar have gotten BETTER at story writting if anything. 

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JavierC
13 hours ago, UndeadPotat0 said:

Oh ya bc f*cking catalina and big smoke where the deepest characters ever. Come on now. 

 

3 hours ago, King Vercetti said:

 

THANK YOU. I absolutely love ALL the older GTAs, but it’s hilarious to me when people say things like, “the writing used to be sooo much better”...

 

like REALLY?! In the 3D era, when Rockstar essentially just knocked off as many pop culture references as possible and packaged it all together as a “story”? Lol come on. 

 

(Also before anyone gets pissy, Vice City is still to this day my favorite game in the series, I’m not knocking the older games at all, I love them to death. But vehicles for  timeless storytelling, they were not lol.)

 

Funny you didn't mention RDR1, Max Payne 3 and GTA IV.

 

Writing used to be so much better then.

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mde2
Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2019 at 8:39 AM, JavierC said:

Funny you didn't mention RDR1, Max Payne 3 and GTA IV.

 

Writing used to be so much better then.

Okay how about this.

 

The protagonist is directly forced/manipulated into working with a powerful, older individual (bonus points if the protagonist has had previous interactions with them, positive or negative). The protagonist goes on a deathwish mission in order to appease the antagonist or because they believe it might have some benefit however the antagonist ends up betraying them and getting a family member/someone close to the protagonist killed. The protagonist proceeds to seek out and kill the antagonist and eventually does at the cost of their safety. Eventually though, the protagonist succeeds in killing the antagonist and a morally grey ending is shown and it is ambiguous where the protagonist will end up after the events of the game due to the events leading up to this point.

 

Sound familiar? Thats because that is literally point for point the three games you mentioned + EFLC. Face it bro, R*'s story-telling has never been that good.

Edited by mde2

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JavierC
4 hours ago, mde2 said:

Okay how about this.

 

The protagonist is directly forced/manipulated into working with a powerful, older individual (bonus points if the protagonist has had previous interactions with them, positive or negative). The protagonist goes on a deathwish mission in order to appease the antagonist or because they believe it might have some benefit however the antagonist ends up betraying them and getting a family member/someone close to the protagonist killed. The protagonist proceeds to seek out and kill the antagonist and eventually does at the cost of their safety. Eventually though, the protagonist succeeds in killing the antagonist and a morally grey ending is shown and it is ambiguous where the protagonist will end up after the events of the game due to the events leading up to this point.

 

Sound familiar? Thats because that is literally point for point the three games you mentioned + EFLC. Face it bro, R*'s story-telling has never been that good.

 

I'm not saying Rockstar writing was flawless, I'm saying it was better than todays. Protagonists, secondary characters and minor characters involved, dialogue in general, continuity, etc.

 

"Hey bro, writing was lacking originality in those games" means or does nothing to my point.

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Arsewipercareerman20

Isn't the main point of an antagonist is for them to be a very terrible person and for viewers to not like them at all? 

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mde2
10 hours ago, JavierC said:

I'm not saying Rockstar writing was flawless, I'm saying it was better than todays. Protagonists, secondary characters and minor characters involved, dialogue in general, continuity, etc. 

 

"Hey bro, writing was lacking originality in those games" means or does nothing to my point.

Well as it happens you haven't actually made a case or point for how writing used to be better except saying "He's a cartoon, just like Trevor." which has no weight given how most characters within Rockstar games are extremely exaggerated to the point of being cartoon characters.

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Arsewipercareerman20
On 4/7/2019 at 10:31 AM, JavierC said:

He's a cartoon, just like Trevor.

 

Don't know what happened to rockstar writing these years.

Isn't Rockstar known for creating video games with wild f*cked up characters? What are you getting at bro? 

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Renato84BR

I think every line in this game's writing is poorly written.

 

RDR2 is Rockstar's TES: Oblivion. 

 

It will fade into...

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JavierC
9 hours ago, mde2 said:

Well as it happens you haven't actually made a case or point for how writing used to be better except saying "He's a cartoon, just like Trevor." which has no weight given how most characters within Rockstar games are extremely exaggerated to the point of being cartoon characters.

No need, you just need to see a cutscene from that era and one from Red II. Is crystal clear.

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