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Target13

Women, LGBTQ and Diversity in DYOM

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Marty McFlaY
13 hours ago, universetwisters said:

If a lot of the DYOM makers come from the Arab world or other third world countries where women get the short end of the stick, there's probably not much that can be done to convince them of this. 

Arab?

Don't make me point out what kind of grieved things are occurring and what new genders are coming into existence in the west (especially in yours). There's a lot of difference between our perspective and your perspective. Your media controls your irrational minds and propagate lies against us. We are well aware of the rights of the people. Don't point out the mistakes of our nation because you need a serious look at yours. 

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RithRake24
Posted (edited)

I am quite honestly appalled to see some of the comments in the replies that have arisen from this well-intended thread. Most of the disagreements seem to be made on the basis that DYOM doesn't necessarily need diversity and that Target13 should never have mentioned that his character was gay due to the fact that it was irrelevant to the overall plot of the Mission Pack. However, Target mentioned from the very start that the topic might get touchy around the factor of forced vs. natural diversity, which, if everyone had read properly, could have reduced this thread to half the length that it is now. From my point of view, from the very start, Target was very careful on mentioning that diversity is something that can fall into the trap of being forced upon an MP and therefore making it more unrealistic, and therefore diversity should only be included in a Mission Pack that allows it to be integrated seamlessly with the plot and environment. The arguments that were made on the basis that not all MPs work well with diversity and that DYOM doesn't always need diversity was therefore pre-rebutted in the OP, hence all those arguments were effectively redundant, in my honest opinion.

 

About the argument that most MPs are based on a general gangbanging or military themes, I find that generalisation to be quite frankly wrong. The last few MPs that have really been circulating on the forums, and definitely most of the last few MPs that I have played, tend to usually stay away from a gangbanging theme due to the fact that the very theme has been overused in the past and is usually nowadays shunned as a highly cliche idea. Please keep in mind that some MPs may use certain gangster themes for individual plot points within the overarching story, however, quite honestly it has been a while since we've seen MPs that are based overall on gangbanging. Is Cowboys: The Tale of Betty Shore a gangster MP? Is Dark Instinct? How about [CLASSIFIED] 1992? Age of Brutality? Silence Scream 2? Vis Major? Heck, even my own MP, What Pain Means? A simple look at the Mission Showroom would have rebutted this argument straight away, hence making this just as redundant as the previous argument.

 

Also, why all this fuss about Target13 trying to "change our minds" using a "lengthy post"? The entire OP is written in the form of an idealistic suggestion to be included only if possible, rather than being argumentative and adamant in enforcing a new idea upon designers. T13 never attempted to use any persuasive language or devices within his OP to evoke a sense that everyone must include diversity in order to uphold realism. He was merely bringing up a thought that he had, that we could use in our projects wherever necessary, while emphasising that implementing diversity sparingly, wherever possible would bring about a fresh feel to future projects. This, in my opinion, is true: little ideas and devices like this, when used appropriately, can even make a cliched idea seem more unique than it is supposed to be. Never in his OP did he state that it was an absolute necessity to somehow squeeze female, gay or non-gangster African American protagonists into MPs that are totally irrelevant to that very idea. I don't remember T13 mentioning anywhere that you should have a female protagonist in gangster missions or such. His tone was in such a way that he was simply suggesting that the usage of unforced, natural diversity could add an extra level of realism and freshness to a project idea.

 

Then came the argument that DYOM could never change the mind of someone playing another designer's missions. Speaking in a Literature student's point-of-view here, every piece of work or art, not limited to text, is a subconscious reflection of its creators inner views, values and knowledge. From a psychoanalytic lens, it has been proven by studies that any piece of art, including commercialised products like games and even just content created by non-verified personnel, have the ability to evoke the values, views and thoughts that were going through the creator's mind while creating the piece of content. I do not see why this would not apply to DYOM missions, as they are a work of art very similar to commercial games, movies, and in rare cases, literature. Due to the above-mentioned points, creators are indirectly influencing their consumers through the means of their content, and any piece of content created with a certain theme, let alone a repetitive theme like gender stereotypes and racial stereotypes, definitely will leave some influence on their consumers, especially if the consumer is in the learning stage of their lives. T13 mentioned a very realistic point here and I don't understand why some people seem to think that no influence is caused by content created through mods. I'm not saying here that playing gangster missionpacks will cause consumers to take up gangbanging, I'm saying the overarching, highly repetitive themes that are used subconsciously by content creators, including but not limited to the general idea that powerful characters tend to be white and male, and females are always weaklings that are sometimes used simply as devices to trap men, are subtle enough to cause a subconscious influence on consumers as well, since heavily forced themes like gangbanging and crime are obviously something everyone clearly knows not to be inspired by. Therefore from a technical perspective there is nothing wrong in Target's initial idea that youngsters can be influenced by factors such as lack of diversity.

 

With DYOM's limitations in mind, it definitely is not possible to create a mission pack with a cast that entirely consists of female characters (looking at the fact that DYOM only contains about 5-6 female ped models that are not strippers). But hey, the idea here is not do away with males completely! Using 1 or 2 important female characters that are not just pawns meant to get kidnapped as a means of extracting information, but instrumental to the plot otherwise, is actually not very difficult, but as I stressed multiple times above, it must fit the Mission Pack idea properly without feeling forced. This is not an absolute must, but simply a suggested progressive idea that also does us the extra help of adding an extra layer of realism to our projects.

 

Very personally, I find it difficult to give different characters different personalities, which is important when it comes to creating a piece of work, whether in DYOM or in a large-scale cinematic production. Your MP could become boring and repetitive if everyone speaks and acts the same way. This whole idea of "diversity" is a good way to assign different personalities and stick by it, which means that it is helpful to designers, too.

 

With that too being said, once again I'd daresay this topic was definitely well-intended. As I attempt to improve the quality of my own projects, I don't see why I shouldn't look into including some of Target's ideas on diversity where applicable in order for a small boost in uniqueness and realism, especially since it could also help me in the way mentioned in the previous paragraph.

 

☺️ Phew, this is probably the longest reply I've ever written to a topic!

 

4 hours ago, Marty McFlaY said:

Arab?

Don't make me point out what kind of grieved things are occurring and what new genders are coming into existence in the west (especially in yours). There's a lot of difference between our perspective and your perspective. Your media controls your irrational minds and propagate lies against us. We are well aware of the rights of the people. Don't point out the mistakes of our nation because you need a serious look at yours. 

Also, fair point.

Edited by RithRake24

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Seth
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RithRake24 said:

 

Very personally, I find it difficult to give different characters different personalities, which is important when it comes to creating a piece of work, whether in DYOM or in a large-scale cinematic production. Your MP could become boring and repetitive if everyone speaks and acts the same way. This whole idea of "diversity" is a good way to assign different personalities and stick by it, which means that it is helpful to designers, too.

 

With that too being said, once again I'd daresay this topic was definitely well-intended. As I attempt to improve the quality of my own projects, I don't see why I shouldn't look into including some of Target's ideas on diversity where applicable in order for a small boost in uniqueness and realism, especially since it could also help me in the way mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Exactly, when universetwisters asked us "Where you find a realistic female lead in gangbanging/army themes" the answer that there many other types than that so the woman can be. Can you please visualize main female character in Fanstasy or Romance types? Heck, you can even turn a female into a female soldier(this is real irl) and make her a fighter for America.

 

About the lack question about that there no sort of place mission to make a gay protoganist, how about you also a horror MP about this? I would write the persona of this gay character in the introduction and some speech about the protoganist being gay can be displayed in the journey.

Edited by Seth

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RithRake24
Posted (edited)

@Seth 

I agree with you to an extent, but please edit your post and shorten the text in the quote. It's cluttering the thread. ☺️

 

Also, forgot to mention, there's no female soldier skin, unless you use a mod.

Edited by RithRake24

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Target13
1 hour ago, RithRake24 said:

Also, forgot to mention, there's no female soldier skin, unless you use a mod.

Speaking of female skin soldier mods

Spoiler

9UphEcu.png 

credits to SlingShot753

 

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Seth
1 hour ago, Target13 said:

Speaking of female skin soldier mods

  Reveal hidden contents

9UphEcu.png 

credits to SlingShot753

 

That what I am talking about lol

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gheorgheM

Hmm, well, my Latex-Cat missions were about a Latin-American lesbian super-heroine who was dating an Asian-American lesbian woman, and saving her from trouble, all the while fighting against a white-American mastermind and evil aliens from outer space (this was never implemented in DYOM actually). She's had Asian-American allies, and enemies were both male and female, white or otherwise. Yeah, I was kinda hormone-driven when I conceived the character, but still, diversity is diversity.

My Old War series was about a bunch of elderly people - granted, most of them were white, but two were Afro- and Asian-American respectively - fighting an unspecified enemy military force that invaded the US.

And at least one of my standalone missions featured an Afro-American deuteragonist\ tritagonist (since there were three main characters and the two followers had no specific hierarchical roles).

 

Does this qualify?

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omigawail

If there was no diversity in dyom missions, then how can you explain this? checkmate atheists.

 

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universetwisters
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, omigawail said:

If there was no diversity in dyom missions, then how can you explain this? checkmate atheists.

 

 

Funny video and this is the kind of sh*t I’m talking about with DYOM being the way it is - sure you get some deep stuff, I’m not gonna deny that, but 3/4 of the time it’s just meme sh*t like this or gta fan fiction like WHAT IF RYDER KILLED CJ LOLOLOL. Any attempt at a diverse plot or something would only be appreciated by a few and be overshadowed by generic gangbanging plot no. 384 that came out of some third world country. But if y’all wanna be in the minority then heck more power to y’all 

 

8 hours ago, Marty McFlaY said:

Arab?

Don't make me point out what kind of grieved things are occurring and what new genders are coming into existence in the west (especially in yours). There's a lot of difference between our perspective and your perspective. Your media controls your irrational minds and propagate lies against us. We are well aware of the rights of the people. Don't point out the mistakes of our nation because you need a serious look at yours. 

 

You say that like the advancements in the LGBTQ community and recognizing other gender issues are a bad thing so idk if that’s supposed to make you look more tolerant or not because it really doesn’t but okay

Edited by universetwisters

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Aflien

You people are taking all of this too seriously. We started out as a community sharing creations for FUN. And look at this? What the hell are you people? Politicians? Who the hell cares about diversity or that bullsh*t in a video game?

Video games are made to have fun.

 

Lets get one thing straight (or gay if you prefer), all these things existed long time ago. Its just in last few years 'diversity' has been brought up as a topic. People were bored and wanted to complain about something so there goes female heroins in a totally unneccesary movies(Ghostbusters) Black actors getting roles just because they are black (Talent has no importance whatsover) LGBT and stuff put into media just so few people wouldn't get butthurt. (Probably because they have nothing else to do with themself.)

 

Look back 10-20years ago:

Lara Croft - Great female role and heroine. Shes a great character because she is a great character, not cuz she is a woman.

Samuel L. Jackson, Morgan Freeman - Afro-Americans who got roles because they were GOOD ACTORS!

Freedie Mercury, Elton John - Great artist who happened to be gay, not the other way around.

and they are many people like them.

 

Rest is just plain bullsh*t that shouldn't be force fed down at people.

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Seth
1 hour ago, omigawail said:

If there was no diversity in dyom missions, then how can you explain this? checkmate atheists.

 

I don't think related to diversity since the creator of those missions is a fan of supernatural and miraculous champions.

 

 By the way this guy got trolled in some of gay mission packs made by unknown decayed creatures that-shouldn't-be-called-human.

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thehambone

My two cents:

If it doesn't add anything relevant to the storyline, don't add it. This goes for anything (not only diversity and inclusion).

There's no point in mentioning a character's sexuality if it doesn't affect the story. There's no point in making a character's race obnoxiously apparent if it doesn't somehow tie into the story. I'm not saying that race should be ignored and everyone should be white, black, purple, or whatever. By all means, create characters with different skin tones and ethnic backgrounds. But there's no point in nitpicking about "Oh I have X white characters and only Y black characters, I need to add Z black characters to even it out so it's 'diverse'". All that does is create the forced diversity scenario, and nobody wants that. Nobody. Focus on individual character traits; make your characters unique.

 

People seem to want to inject sexuality and race into everything these days. Sometimes it's warranted, most of the time it's irrelevant.

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RithRake24
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Marty McFlaY said:

Arab?

Don't make me point out what kind of grieved things are occurring and what new genders are coming into existence in the west (especially in yours). There's a lot of difference between our perspective and your perspective. Your media controls your irrational minds and propagate lies against us. We are well aware of the rights of the people. Don't point out the mistakes of our nation because you need a serious look at yours. 

 

3 hours ago, universetwisters said:

You say that like the advancements in the LGBTQ community and recognizing other gender issues are a bad thing so idk if that’s supposed to make you look more tolerant or not because it really doesn’t but okay

I'm pretty sure the "grieved things" and "new genders" in the "west" that Marty McFlaY was talking about does not refer to the LGBTQ community or gender issues (I may be completely wrong about this, I can't pick his brain). Those are progressive advancements (to an extent), but he might be referring to other common problems that are arising now in the West instead, and they're obvious enough for me not to name them.

 

The point that Marty McFlaY was rebutting was "women get the short end of the stick" in "Arab" and "third-world countries". It seems highly probable that his main point was that in the digital age, even people from such countries are aware of progressive advancements and human rights, despite there not being a completely peaceful end as of yet to violent acts that may have been plaguing those countries for the last few centuries. And his second point seems to be that the Western media is responsible for widely portraying the Arab and Third World Countries in the negative and distasteful way that they are portrayed, and that the true reality in such countries is largely unknown to the West. Maybe it was his tone that made it feel just like an attack on LGBTQ rights and advancements.

 

I don't know, though. This is just my interpretation of the above posts, I may be completely wrong.

 

3 hours ago, universetwisters said:

Any attempt at a diverse plot or something would only be appreciated by a few and be overshadowed by generic gangbanging plot no. 384 that came out of some third world country.

The "few" that would appreciate a realistic attempt at a diverse plot are basically most people here in the forums. Even the same people who complained about diversity not being a must, which I agree on anyway, would happily appreciate it if diversity is used well in projects to an extra level of realism. Also, most generic gangbanging plots nowadays tend to come from people who have the mod but are not part of our talented community. I say this confidently because I used to be one of them before I joined the forums. So, the fact of the matter is, nothing really is overshadowed  by gangbanging plots. Just wanted to say this.

 

Also, another unneeded attack at third-world countries. Remove those last few words and what you said would still have the exact same meaning.

 

Lastly, @thehambone, I agree with your two cents, I believe that is what @Target13 had been intending from the very start, and that is also what I have been reinforcing. Only use diversity to your benefit if it well and truly fits the plot.

Edited by RithRake24

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omigawail

Can we stop trying to make diversity into a political subject please. The discussion is about how to implement diversity in our missions for better character development and less cookie-cutter themes. Arguing about sociopolitics in a DYOM forum is ultimately useless, but I just wanted to add that the reason diversity is becoming the latest trend in Hollywood and other forms of media isn't because they somehow became "woke", it's because it's the profitable thing to do. Their target audience blindly watches a movie just because it's "diverse". Mega-corporations don't give a sh*t about women and minorities, they just want to make money. In my honest opinion this is a very cheap and unethical business tactic that doesn't serve the goals of these misrepresented groups at all. Here's a drag queen! Why do we need to have a drag queen in an apocalypse movie you ask? Well, we don't really care anyways... Some people will watch just because there is one!

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El Penguin Bobo

at the end of the day, it's a just a video game mod. Why does stuff like this even matter? @Aflien practically said what I was going to say. It doesn't matter what the gender is, as long as they have good character development and or just a good character in general.

 

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Target13
Posted (edited)

Something that people keep mistaking is that this topic is not an 'issue' in DYOM. The purpose of this thread was just to start a conversation on the topic of diversity and hopefully get more designers to try and implement natural diversity in their missions. I am certainly not trying to say or imply that diversity, or the lack thereof, is a problem in the DYOM community.

 

@RithRake24 pretty much got what I wanted to say.

 

Also lets try to keep the discussion exclusive to DYOM and avoid going into social politics as I am sure there is a thread in the Debates & Discussion subforum for that.

Edited by Target13

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Marty McFlaY

@RithRake24 When he said "Arab", "Third world countries" and "women get the short end of the stick". I got his point right there. Now I don't want to explain everything in this topic because we all watch the media these days and also this is not the right topic.

 

Once again I will accuse your media regarding your knowledge about the state of women in Arab. The rule you are trying to declare "short end of the stick" is not only for women but for the men as well and there are many clear reasons that why they face such punishments. They encounter this because they are going against the rules of the country and whoever goes against the rules then it is called 'Crime' and I think every country knows how to deal with that kind of particular person. Different countries have different rules and everyone should respect them since rules are created to maintain Peace. Giving an example of 'Arab' only does not complete your sentence. Mention everyone since this "short end of the stick" is a rule everywhere around the world for all genders. I won't touch into this topic more here. 

 

And I agree with @Aflien there's no point of discussing this since its only a video game. 

 

 

 

 

 

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AnDReJ98
Posted (edited)

@The Half-Blood Prince You did predict the future, indeed. Didn't know it would come to this tho.

 

As for the rest, although it may be an interesting subject to 'discuss' about, it became way too serious. Aflien explained it all.

 

In my case, if a story or character development is going to benefit if i mention that the certain character is gay, or if MC is a female, I'm gonna focus on it (to make everything look right, with sense, not forced) and put it in, simple. If it's going to be there, just to 'be there', without any significant reason, then I'm not gonna put it that way. It may even damage the quality of my storyline if it's forcefully a female lead/gay.

 

Some of you took this way too seriously, keep in mind this is 10 years old mod for a 15 years old game, which generally has small community. I understand your reasons behind everything you guys said, but still, I wouldn't take it up to that point.

 

THBP's mission-packs pretty much explained it all. Awesome character development when it comes to female leads and/or supporting characters. Differences can be easily spotted in the story when you see a female lead character or most of female characters in the story anyway compared to what you would call 'generic white male lead', he mastered it and it doesn't feel forced at all. Most of people don't even think about something like this and put whatever they see fit in their MPs (just like me when i used to design, everything was so simplified, I didn't follow the 'trend', sometimes i would put this, sometimes i would put that, whatever i see fits, male, female, black or white, it doesn't matter).

 

DYOM will always remain a tool dedicated for fun, creativity and even earnings for some people. The theme we are discussing about more or less won't change anything at all. Mainly due to what universetwisters said, these different, creative and original creators are the minority in this community but that is mostly because this mod (and game itself) is old, and even whole dyom community is not that big so it doesn't really matter. It's actually one of the smaller compared to what other GTA communities have to offer.

 

@Marty McFlaY Couldn't agree more. Your first post proved it all especially when it comes to stuff like this, even though it's more of a political thing, but these subjects often bring politics up.

 

EDIT: Oh and skins are not the problem. With your imagination and implementation through the storyline, you can make anything work (some designers proved it with their work). GTA SA has a lot of skins, I'm sure you can make it work one way or another. If you feel urge to use other skins, feel free to use mods and provide people with links. Problem solved.

Edited by AnDReJ98

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bananaking13
Posted (edited)

Dude, this is a GTA mod not a movie. Doubt anyone would feel represented when they see gay CJ kissing gay Big Smoke.

Edited by bananaking13

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The Half-Blood Prince
7 hours ago, bananaking13 said:

Doubt anyone would feel represented when they see gay CJ kissing gay Big Smoke.

 

The fact you did THIS kind of commentary just shows you didn't understand any of the conversation presented in the post.

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bananaking13
6 hours ago, The Half-Blood Prince said:

 

The fact you did THIS kind of commentary just shows you didn't understand any of the conversation presented in the post.

didnt have to write it in bold to freak us out, fella.

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RithRake24
6 hours ago, The Half-Blood Prince said:

 

The fact you did THIS kind of commentary just shows you didn't understand any of the conversation presented in the post.

I was about to say the same thing.

 

3 minutes ago, bananaking13 said:

didnt have to write it in bold to freak us out, fella.

THBP always types in bold, by the way. It’s sort of his style, I guess.

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omigawail
2 hours ago, bananaking13 said:

didnt have to write it in bold to freak us out, fella.

Because everyone knows bold = intimidating

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