Quantcast
Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
    1. Welcome to GTAForums!

    1. Red Dead Redemption 2

      1. PC
      2. Gameplay
      3. Missions
      4. Help & Support
    2. Red Dead Online

      1. Gameplay
      2. Find Lobbies & Outlaws
      3. Help & Support
      4. Frontier Pursuits
    1. Crews & Posses

      1. Recruitment
    2. Events

    1. GTA Online

      1. Diamond Casino & Resort
      2. DLC
      3. Find Lobbies & Players
      4. Guides & Strategies
      5. Vehicles
      6. Content Creator
      7. Help & Support
    2. Grand Theft Auto Series

    3. GTA 6

    4. GTA V

      1. PC
      2. Guides & Strategies
      3. Help & Support
    5. GTA IV

      1. Episodes from Liberty City
      2. Multiplayer
      3. Guides & Strategies
      4. Help & Support
      5. GTA Mods
    6. GTA Chinatown Wars

    7. GTA Vice City Stories

    8. GTA Liberty City Stories

    9. GTA San Andreas

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    10. GTA Vice City

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    11. GTA III

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    12. Top Down Games

      1. GTA Advance
      2. GTA 2
      3. GTA
    13. Wiki

      1. Merchandising
    1. GTA Modding

      1. GTA V
      2. GTA IV
      3. GTA III, VC & SA
      4. Tutorials
    2. Mod Showroom

      1. Scripts & Plugins
      2. Maps
      3. Total Conversions
      4. Vehicles
      5. Textures
      6. Characters
      7. Tools
      8. Other
      9. Workshop
    3. Featured Mods

      1. DYOM
      2. OpenIV
      3. GTA: Underground
      4. GTA: Liberty City
      5. GTA: State of Liberty
    1. Red Dead Redemption

    2. Rockstar Games

    1. Off-Topic

      1. General Chat
      2. Gaming
      3. Technology
      4. Programming
      5. Movies & TV
      6. Music
      7. Sports
      8. Vehicles
    2. Expression

      1. Graphics / Visual Arts
      2. GFX Requests & Tutorials
      3. Writers' Discussion
      4. Debates & Discussion
    1. News

    2. Forum Support

    3. Site Suggestions

Target13

Women, LGBTQ and Diversity in DYOM

Recommended Posts

Target13
Posted (edited)

Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is to discuss the state of diversity, character building and accurate portrayals in DYOM mission-packs. This thread is not intended to bash different opinions or views but rather to discuss them. I ask you keep the same open-mindedness when sharing your view. Please only post if you have a serious reply.

 

This is something I have wanted to discuss for a long time. Even before the announcement of Cowboys. For those who don't know, what I mean with diversity, is consciously including characters from different ethnic groups, religions and/or sexual orientation among other things in your work. For example: Intentionally having more women or African Americans in your story to have a diverse cast.

 

This is where the topic gets touchy. Hollywood, where most of our inspiration comes from, has been taking diversity seriously over the past few years. If we look at movies with all-female casts. African-Americans as leading rolls, inclusion of LGBTQ persons for example, we see that more groups are being represented in the media. The problem rises however when this diversity feels forced. When creators force diversity upon the audience by placing these characters in situations or places that feel out place. The increasing amount of diverse characters in the Star Wars franchise can be seen as forced diversity since the marketing makes it a point that the movies are 'cool' and 'diverse'. Unnecessary retcon of characters too include diversity can be experienced as forced as well. J.K Rolling announcing that several established characters in the Harry Potter franchise being gay for example feels out of place and does nothing to promote diversity or unity. These changes are seen as SJW or feminist but are in fact just bad writing.

 

And then we come to DYOM. Diversity is not something I thought about until I finished The Fort, which included an all-white male cast. I can understand if people don't immediately see the problem but considering that a large group of this community are still young and growing, our work as designers plays a role in the way they write their stories and also how they see the world. Especially for someone young living outside the west, having a group of strong white males running and shooting around small town America could really give them the impression that what they see represents reality, when in fact it is far from that. Moving forward after The Fort, I intentionally wrote more diverse characters and tried to avoid stereotypes to really portray different people accurately. 

 

Women, even beyond DYOM, have this stigma of being weak or very dependent on stronger male characters. I really wanted to avoid writing characters like this. Agents of E.D.E.N: The Peace Circle featured the first female protagonist in the T13U, a successful and brave woman named Julie West who climbed aboard a ship full of terrorists so that she can achieve her goal. I really enjoyed writing Julie because not only was she my first attempt at writing a strong female but she avoided the stereotypes in several ways. She isn't a weak damsel in distress, but also not an untouchable diva who has it all. When 'woke' creators want to portray strong independent woman, they show a woman who has overcome all odds and came out on top where she will stay. Julie differs in the sense that her backstory accurately represents how women don't just get to stay on the top and will always be challenged by those who don't believe women deserve that position. Julie, a Pulitzer prize winner and prominent journalist has lost her spotlight after being fired on false accusations. She represents the struggle women have to face. She literally put her life in danger to prove her worth (again).

 

Another woman I absolutely loved to write was Lindsey Palmer from Cowboys. When writing Lindsey, I wanted to portray someone who has been through hell and yet managed to cling on. When first encountered in the third episode, Lindsey is seen crying in a corner while being intimated by her ex-boyfriend Sean. I wanted players to see her as this weak individual, because in fact that is how other characters saw her. Throughout the story however, Lindsey is shown to be this fierce fighter who is more than capable of defending herself. She breaks the line between side character and main hero in the last episode when you as the player and the protagonist, to a certain extent as a character, follow her lead. She also shares a special bond with the protagonist, Marcelo. But this friendship never evolves into anything more. Because why should it? Their friendship was meant to show that these two people can be friends without their relationship ever having to become sexual.

 

It is not only women however. I think diversity is not only the color of a character's skin, their gender or their sexuality but also their views and opinions. Betty Shore is supposed to be an extreme example of small town America but I didn't want to portray them as stereotypical close-minded 'rednecks'. The town's doctor and a prominent resident, Avery Kingston is an African-American. One of the town elders is Lisa Cooper, who has a lot of influence over the town. The youngest person in town is Bertha Cooper, who is an educated young woman studying to become a lawyer. These examples of diversity are not out of place and do not feel forced. They are natural and just a part of the environment. Players seeing this get the impression that this is normal, Because it is. Having these characters however does not mean that the white men in town are left leaning SJWs, so to speak.. Diversity isn't only the inclusion of leftists, diversity is having different characters together. John Cooper is a social conservative and a religious man, yet he sees an African-American man as his father figure. Making John conservative was intentional because despite being a liberal myself, I wanted to show that not all republicans or conservatives as racist or sexist.

 

I think, as a designer I have this responsibility to accurately represent the world in my work. Our projects are set in San Andreas which itself is based on California, one of the most diverse states in the United States with many different demographics co-existing. Portraying this in our projects not only make them more realistic but also changes the point of view of our players.

 

Is this something you think about when it comes to writing your stories? If your women are portrayed realistically or if you have any gay person in your story? I don't mean to say that you should immediately rewrite your script to include diversity just to make it a point. One of the characters in Cowboys is gay, but this is never mentioned or shown because it wasn't necessary. It doesn't bring anything to the story so why would it be put in the spotlight? What I do mean to say, would it not benefit your project's cast to include different characters as a means to diversify your work? In my opinion, if done right, it would.

 

Now with the level of talent that is comparable to the days of DYOM in its prime and designers who are taking their projects seriously, I would love to hear your opinions on this.

 

TL;DR: I believe we should include and accurately portray more women, people of color, LGTBQ people and people with different beliefs to diversify our projects so that they are more interesting and realistic.

 

Edited by Target13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
it's poundcake time

almost all of my protagonists are white (not racist) and i think i don't have included any african american characters lately, except from Drug Year storyline.

 

but i have to agree with you, but i haven't intended any gay persons ever in my missions or mission-packs

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
Posted (edited)

But would the plot of these hypothetical missions/storylines revolve around the character being a woman? Or are they just a woman for aesthetics? 

 

If a lot of the DYOM makers come from the Arab world or other third world countries where women get the short end of the stick, there's probably not much that can be done to convince them of this. Nice try though, but it's a reality I don't see happening. If they want to make 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Target13 said:

One of the characters in Cowboys is gay, but this is never mentioned or shown because it wasn't necessary. It doesn't bring anything to the story so why would it be put in the spotlight? What I do mean to say, would it not benefit your project's cast to include different characters as a means to diversify your work? In my opinion, if done right, it would.

 

 

Then why even offer that information if he's gay but it has zero relevance to anything? Let the player fill in the gaps regarding the character's sexualities

Edited by universetwisters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Target13
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

But would the plot of these hypothetical missions/storylines revolve around the character being a woman? Or are they just a woman for aesthetics? 

It depends on the designer really. I think having the plot revolve around the character being a woman is an example of the forced diversity that I spoke of. But, in some cases it is justified. If it is like a period piece and the story revolves around a woman in a male dominated society or something in those lines.

 

Quote

If a lot of the DYOM makers come from the Arab world or other third world countries where women get the short end of the stick, there's probably not much that can be done to convince them of this. Nice try though, but it's a reality I don't see happening.

I believe young people, especially in this digital age are more open to progressive ideas, despite the views of their elders. I don't believe one DYOM mission on it's own can change someone's view on women but it could play a tiny part in changing their perspective. That combined with an increasingly diverse media, there is really potential for change there.

 

Quote

 Then why even offer that information if he 's gay but it has zero relevance to anything? Let the player fill in the gaps regarding the character's sexualities

It is relevant. This character's sexuality plays a big part in writing their personality and the way they behave. Just like with homosexuals who haven't come out, people are free to interpret this character's sexuality however they want.

Edited by Target13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
omigawail

 I don't think the issue with lack of representation has to do with inherent bigotry as much as it does with just how mediocre almost all of the stories DYOM designers come up with. The game is limiting when it comes to skins you can use, GTA San Andreas is at it's core a very satirical game. The skins are stereotypical (A lot of the female skins are just prostitutes, almost all black skins are gangsters, and so on).

 

 In addition, storylines and themes in general in DYOM missions are cookie-cutter. This is because of the content designers in general consume. The typical action movie character is white, those action movies are inspiration for the designer, so the protagonist in the mission has to be white as well. Well, not necessarily, but it is the easy thing to do. As much as it's unrealistic to have all the characters in missions be either bland white men or stereotypical gangsters/women to be rescued/Italian mafia/Arab or Russian terrorists, it is also unrealistic to expect the average DYOM designer to take these stereotypes into consideration and try to avoid false representation or lack of representation in the first place.

 

 Some of the greatest missionpacks and storylines I've played have a diverse cast, while others look like they were taken straight out of the average Texas shooting range. My point is, that diversity does not dictate whether the thing you have designed is good or not. Despite this, I believe that it is good to create more "different" characters. Not by cramming them in to appeal to some SJW fantasy, but to encourage the designer to step out of their bounds, think outside the box and become more creative.

 

Note: this post could have turned out very different if it was posted yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
2 minutes ago, Target13 said:

It depends on the designer really. I think having the plot revolve around the character being a woman is an example of the forced diversity that I spoke of. But, in some cases it is justified. If it is like a period piece and the story revolves around a woman in a male dominated society or something in those lines.

 

If you can do that without it coming off as forced diversity or one of those overused "A can do X just as good as B" stories then good luck because I haven't seen any good examples of that.

 

3 minutes ago, Target13 said:

I believe young people, especially in this digital age are more open to progressive ideas, despite the views of their elders. I don't believe one DYOM mission on it's own can change someone's view on women but it could play a tiny part in changing their perspective. That combined with an increasingly diverse media, there is really potential for change there.

 

I feel like you're trying to credit DYOM too much for possibly changing someone's beliefs (is this why this is pinned?). If people's views are changed about an entire group of people just by playing a game mod, I'm afraid to occupy the same space as them with them being as impressionable as they are.

 

8 minutes ago, Target13 said:

It is relevant. This character's sexuality plays a big part in writing their personality and the way they behave. Just like with homosexuals who haven't come out, people are free to interpret this character's sexuality however they want.

 

Why are you saying it's relevant if you just said it contributes nothing to the story? One of the good things about writing is leaving some avenues open for the reader, player, etc. to speculate on. Could X be gay or not gay? If someone is gay enough to play a big part in their personality and the way they behave (a real campy gay guy for example), wouldn't you agree that they'd just become a stereotype and make your arguments moot? Yeah, it's good that gays are being represented, whoop de doo, but is it worth it if they're represented as a stereotype?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Target13
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

I feel like you're trying to credit DYOM too much for possibly changing someone's beliefs (is this why this is pinned?). If people's views are changed about an entire group of people just by playing a game mod, I'm afraid to occupy the same space as them with them being as impressionable as they are.

I am not at all saying that DYOM by it self can change someone's beliefs. I am saying that how ever small the part it plays, it can (in combination with more significant media such movies and video games) contribute to changing said beliefs. Just like designers were inspired to write male leads, they can be inspired to write female leads.

 

Quote

Why are you saying it's relevant if you just said it contributes nothing to the story? One of the good things about writing is leaving some avenues open for the reader, player, etc. to speculate on. Could X be gay or not gay? If someone is gay enough to play a big part in their personality and the way they behave (a real campy gay guy for example), wouldn't you agree that they'd just become a stereotype and make your arguments moot? Yeah, it's good that gays are being represented, whoop de doo, but is it worth it if they're represented as a stereotype?

Just be to clear, I didn't pull a J.K. Rolling just now. I have never revealed who this gay character is. It is insignificant to player but relevant to me as the writer. The reason I mentioned it in the first place is to make the exact point you're making. While this character's sexuality was important to their development, it doesn't affect the story therefore I never mentioned their sexuality in the mission-pack's promotions or the story itself. For now, it is up to the players to interpret the character's sexuality. 

Edited by Target13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
General Scrotum
9 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

(is this why this is pinned?).

 

I pinned it because I thought it would make an interesting discussion to have and it should get the attention it deserves. (Note: I am not stating that I agree or disagree with the statements of the OP)

 

 

Now to touch on one of the subjects mentionned in the first post, we did have discussions about the next Multidesigner Project but it died out for whatever reason. Keeping in mind the theme that was voted for was politics, it would have touched upon the diversity of political/personal beliefs for the involved characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
8 minutes ago, Target13 said:

I am not at all saying that DYOM by it self can change someone's beliefs. I am saying that how ever small the part it plays, it can (in combination with more significant media such movies and video games) contribute to changing said beliefs. Just like designers were inspired to write male leads, they can be inspired to write female leads.

 

But what's convincing them to write a female lead? Like omigawail mentioned above, there's not a lot of good looking female skins and a lot of the designers just simply don't care.

 

9 minutes ago, Target13 said:

Just be to clear, I didn't pull a J.K. Rolling just now. I have never revealed who this gay character is. It is insignificant to player but relevant to me as the writer. The reason I mentioned it in the first place is to make the exact point you're making. While this character's sexuality was important to their development, it doesn't affect the story therefore I never mentioned their sexuality in the mission-pack's promotions or the story itself. For now, it is up to the players to interpret the character's sexuality. 

 

So are they flamboyantly gay or something? If it is, then you're just pandering to a stereotype that you're trying to dismiss so I dunno what you're trying to do or if this is just a weird way to promote your cowboy plot or what

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Target13
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

But what's convincing them to write a female lead? Like omigawail mentioned above, there's not a lot of good looking female skins and a lot of the designers just simply don't care.

What's convincing them to write a male lead? All the movies they watch, all the games they play and no doubt the missions they play. We designers inspire each other. Now that movies and games are becoming more diverse they will be more inclined to write a different type of lead. And if one of us manages to design a good mission-pack with one such lead, it could start a chain reaction. 

 

There are countless skin mods for female characters so if someone, who is serious about their writing, wants to portray their character normally, they can. Especially now that mostly everyone can turn mods on and off with mod loader.

 

Quote

So are they flamboyantly gay or something? If it is, then you're just pandering to a stereotype that you're trying to dismiss so I dunno what you're trying to do or if this is just a weird way to promote your cowboy plot or what

No, they are not. There are hints here and there but it wouldn't be anyone's first guess to say that they are gay. I don't see the relevance of discussing this point further. Like I stated, the reason I put this in the OP in the first place is to say that designers shouldn't force diversity upon their players. Something I assume you and I agree on.

Edited by Target13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.B. Kovas

For a community that is probably not even that much politically oriented or biased to any set of ideals as the post made it seem, this diversity factor, in terms of relevance, only comes down to the point whether the designer himself is surrounded by or from a place influenced by it, or rather if he even cares. Western globalist liberals are forcing it to a point where the gaming, music, movie or any other entertainment industries are just pure garbage nowadays. San Andreas is fictional. Make it out to however you want it to be, and it does not have to be influenced by this forced diversity. In my personal opinion, this topic has been relevant in the western world recently only because globalist ideals are currently on the bigger spotlight, but let's be honest - it's not like the demographics of California changed only last year.

 

DYOM doesn't need this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
10 minutes ago, Target13 said:

What's convincing them to write a male lead? All the movies they watch, all the games they play and no doubt the missions they play. We designers inspire each other. Now that movies and games are becoming more diverse they will be more inclined to write a different type of lead. And if one of us manages to design a good mission-pack with one such lead, it could start a chain reaction. 

Maybe the fact that the models for male characters look much better than the models for female characters in SA? Knowing how bland/generic/childish most DYOM creators are with their stories, a female lead is either gonna be...

 

A) A Mary Sue

B) A sex object 

C) Very poorly written because the writer is more than likely male and can't relate to a female realistically

 

...who I doubt are looking at current movies and games for inspiration and instead looking at old gangsta flicks or war movies.

 

16 minutes ago, Target13 said:

There are hints here and there but it wouldn't be anyone's first guess to say that they are gay. I don't see the relevance of discussing this point further. Like I stated, the reason I put this in the OP in the first place is to say that designers shouldn't force diversity upon their players. Something I assume you and I agree on.

 

So if their sexuality isn't specifically stated nor relevant to the plot whatsoever, why even include hints? 

 

Yeah, it's sh*tty if designers force diversity upon their players, but if you're using "if one guy makes a good plot with a female/minority lead then others will follow" as an argument, isn't that similar in some degree that now there's a status quo to be upheld as far as characters within storylines go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seth

Specially when someone does harassment mission packs about arabs or being racist to other countries and upload them in MediaFire, and send it to a guy to make a video about it, this guy outsmarts us actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Target13
3 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

So if their sexuality isn't specifically stated nor relevant to the plot whatsoever, why even include hints? 

 

Yeah, it's sh*tty if designers force diversity upon their players, but if you're using "if one guy makes a good plot with a female/minority lead then others will follow" as an argument, isn't that similar in some degree that now there's a status quo to be upheld as far as characters within storylines go?

Because the character is gay. Not everything each character does has to be relevant to the story, but they don't have to say 'I am gay' either if it isn't important. There shouldn't be a reason behind everything a character says or does. A character casually mentioning that they have to pee does not mean that the story now revolves around finding a toilet. The hints regarding this character's gayness are just there as a part of his personality.

 

I think there is fine line between having something forced upon you, and choosing to follow the trend. If a designer is inspired by another designer's female lead, that isn't diversity forced upon them. That is them choosing on their own accord.

 

I feel you are underestimating DYOM designers as much as you say I am overestimating them. There is some real talent here.

 

22 minutes ago, M.B. Kovas said:

For a community that is probably not even that much politically oriented or biased to any set of ideals as the post made it seem, this diversity factor, in terms of relevance, only comes down to the point whether the designer himself is surrounded by or from a place influenced by it, or rather if he even cares. Western globalist liberals are forcing it to a point where the gaming, music, movie or any other entertainment industries are just pure garbage nowadays. San Andreas is fictional. Make it out to however you want it to be, and it does not have to be influenced by this forced diversity. In my personal opinion, this topic has been relevant in the western world recently only because globalist ideals are currently on the bigger spotlight, but let's be honest - it's not like the demographics of California changed only last year.

 

DYOM doesn't need this.

Never said it did. I even began this thread by stating how bad forced diversity is. 

See, the missions are really up to the designer and if they want to portray their cast as all straight males then by no means am I saying that they are bad for it. Almost every praised MP in this community has a male lead, because that is the status quo.

 

What I am saying however is that if designers take the time to think about how they are portraying their characters and apply diversity naturally, their stories would be more interesting as they would tell not only a realistic story but also something fresh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RyanAB

All protagonists are good (my opinion). I think this is your talent. For a community is probably needed a much politically or something else. San Andreas yeah is good and very unique but let's be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.B. Kovas
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Target13 said:

Never said it did. I even began this thread by stating how bad forced diversity is. 

See, the missions are really up to the designer and if they want to portray their cast as all straight males then by no means am I saying that they are bad for it. Almost every praised MP in this community has a male lead, because that is the status quo.

 

What I am saying however is that if designers take the time to think about how they are portraying their characters and apply diversity naturally, their stories would be more interesting as they would tell not only a realistic story but also something fresh.

Your statements are quite frankly contradicting with eachother. Well, unless you are simply emphasizing the fact that atleast a few instances of such diversity wouldn't hurt the project. And yes, they wouldn't, but like I mentioned - it still strongly depends on whether the designer wants to portray such a world or not. His ideas of diversity will not necessarely come out to be the likes of physical appearence or sexual orientation, but rather opinions, points of view. Anyway if you have the capability to portray a bunch of white males, yet very different with their perspectives on the story's status quo, then any other physical diversity won't even be necessary.

Edited by M.B. Kovas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RyanAB
1 minute ago, M.B. Kovas said:

Your statements are quite frankly contradicting with eachother. Well, unless you are simply emphasizing the fact that atleast a few instances of such diversity wouldn't hurt the project. And yes, they wouldn't, but like I mentioned - it still strongly depends on whether the designer wants to portray such a world or not. His ideas of diversity will not necessarely come out to be the likes of physical appearence or sexual orientation, but rather opinions, point of views. Anyway if you have the capability to portray a bunch of white males, yet very different with their perspectives on the story's status quo, then any other physical diversity won't even be necessary.

I think his ideas and all ideas it will be not necessary or reccomended to come out like this at this moment. I never saw it a character that was gay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
10 minutes ago, Target13 said:

Because the character is gay. Not everything each character does has to be relevant to the story, but they don't have to say 'I am gay' either if it isn't important. There shouldn't be a reason behind everything a character says or does. A character casually mentioning that they have to pee does not mean that the story now revolves around finding a toilet. The hints regarding this character's gayness are just there as a part of his personality.

 

But if he's gay and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the story, then why is it even an issue? Like who gives a sh*t? Do people plan whether or not their characters are right or left handed, or plan out what kind of rice they like with their beans? Again, if it's big enough to be mentioned and flamboyant enough, you're defeating the purpose of combating stereotypes you set to create with this thread.

 

12 minutes ago, Target13 said:

I think there is fine line between having something forced upon you, and choosing to follow the trend. If a designer is inspired by another designer's female lead, that isn't diversity forced upon them. That is them choosing on their own accord.

 

But as a designer, would I go with a method and plot style I've done before, or follow a trend? I don't know about other designers/writers/etc. but I'd rather be original than follow a trend of "all protagonists being women" or "all protagonists have a gay sidekick". If it's a trend that everyone's doing, it just turns into a gimmick that everyone forgets about in a year.

 

15 minutes ago, Target13 said:

I feel you are underestimating DYOM designers as much as you say I am overestimating them. There is some real talent here.


Yea there could be some talent in DYOM but when the vast majority of DYOM things I've seen were absolute rubbish like this, I think diversity is pretty low on the list of things that need to be fixed

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seth
5 minutes ago, M.B. Kovas said:

Your statements are quite frankly contradicting with eachother. Well, unless you are simply emphasizing the fact that atleast a few instances of such diversity wouldn't hurt the project. And yes, they wouldn't, but like I mentioned - it still strongly depends on whether the designer wants to portray such a world or not. His ideas of diversity will not necessarely come out to be the likes of physical appearence or sexual orientation, but rather opinions, points of view. Anyway if you have the capability to portray a bunch of white males, yet very different with their perspectives on the story's status quo, then any other physical diversity won't even be necessary.

I can make worthiness Mission Pack of white and black divergence's. Just for example take a white designer that always does white characters is his stories, and you ask him to add black supporting characters or you will call him a racist element, but is depends if he know black guys enough like watching movies of them or meeting them in real life and maybe having a black friend.

 

But if he does not know them, the designer will do insults about them and act like they unimportant to him. Violence may occur to his unknown writing about the black's, so the best to let the white male do what they familiar with.

6 minutes ago, universetwisters said:


Yea there could be some talent in DYOM but when the vast majority of DYOM things I've seen were absolute rubbish like this, I think diversity is pretty low on the list of things that need to be fixed

 

 

Those mucking missions aren't related to DYOM normal world design's, the known designers will basically take those missions as a joke and non sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
5 minutes ago, Seth said:

Those mucking missions aren't related to DYOM normal world design's, the known designers will basically take those missions as a joke and non sense.

 

But regardless of how comically bad these are, you can't deny that sh*t like this make up the majority of DYOM missions. "Known designers" are very much the minority here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.B. Kovas
2 minutes ago, Seth said:

I can make worthiness Mission Pack of white and black divergence's. Just for example take a white designer that always does white characters is his stories, and you ask him to add black supporting characters or you will call him a racist element, but is depends if he know black guys enough like watching movies of them or meeting them in real life and maybe having a black friend.

 

But if he does not know them, the designer will do insults about them and act like they unimportant to him. Violence may occur to his unknown writing about the black's, so the best to let the white male do what they familiar with.

First of all, the bigger part of your reply doesn't have fluent enough English to even form valid arguments, but from what I understood - nobody said you can't add black sidekicks to make the story better. And besides, even if the other race is not familiar with said black one, that doesn't mean it will be surrounded with insults. I don't know what kind of stereotypes are stuck in your head, but most decent designers do not necessarely choose to insult a particular race in their projects for no reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Target13
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, M.B. Kovas said:

Your statements are quite frankly contradicting with eachother. Well, unless you are simply emphasizing the fact that atleast a few instances of such diversity wouldn't hurt the project. And yes, they wouldn't, but like I mentioned - it still strongly depends on whether the designer wants to portray such a world or not. His ideas of diversity will not necessarely come out to be the likes of physical appearence or sexual orientation, but rather opinions, points of view. Anyway if you have the capability to portray a bunch of white males, yet very different with their perspectives on the story's status quo, then any other physical diversity won't even be necessary.

I don't believe I am contradicting myself. What you say here is exactly the point I am trying to make, designers shouldn't force diversity just for the sake of it but applying it properly would only be a positive thing.

 

29 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

But if he's gay and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the story, then why is it even an issue? Like who gives a sh*t? Do people plan whether or not their characters are right or left handed, or plan out what kind of rice they like with their beans? Again, if it's big enough to be mentioned and flamboyant enough, you're defeating the purpose of combating stereotypes you set to create with this thread.

We are going in circles regarding this point. I have never stated this to be an issue and explained the reason for putting it in the OP multiple times now.  

 

29 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

But as a designer, would I go with a method and plot style I've done before, or follow a trend? I don't know about other designers/writers/etc. but I'd rather be original than follow a trend of "all protagonists being women" or "all protagonists have a gay sidekick". If it's a trend that everyone's doing, it just turns into a gimmick that everyone forgets about in a year.

Ideally you would but chances are you have been inspired by certain elements of other missions and designed your own rendition, this includes the male lead. The question I wanna ask is why must a white male lead be the default? Why not a woman? Why not a person of color who isn't a gangster? Why not a gay person?

 

If designers used more female, gay or generally any diverse character, maybe it could change this default. Perhaps designers could think outside of the box and see that they have some many choices for a lead instead of the cliche white male.

 

That being said, in hindsight, 'trend' was the wrong word to use. I don't mean to say diverse leads should be a trend but rather an option adjunct to the default. Nobody is saying that designers shouldn't have white male leads, but they shouldn't block out other options

 

29 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Yea there could be some talent in DYOM but when the vast majority of DYOM things I've seen were absolute rubbish like this, I think diversity is pretty low on the list of things that need to be fixed

No doubt there, this whole mod is a mess. Still I don't believe I ever said this is a major problem. It just something I am trying to apply to my work and I suggest other designers try it out too.

Edited by Target13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seth
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

But regardless of how comically bad these are, you can't deny that sh*t like this make up the majority of DYOM missions. "Known designers" are very much the minority here.

I agree with you that the plurality of DYOM community is full of bullsh*ting missions, but to the one's who created them, He just sees that they just cool missions since he is a amateur or less than that. And a new member who does a mission and don't find a website to share his mission in the media of DYOM always leaves the community.

 

As you see, there less members in the forum of DYOM World. The only people here are creative, and How they find it? Possibly by being anxious and learn other things about San Andreas topics which leads them to those forums, which also leads them to mods, plus leads them to DYOM. That exactly how I finded the DYOM Community. Just to mention that the way the others finded the DYOM actual world may be diverse than mine.

31 minutes ago, M.B. Kovas said:

First of all, the bigger part of your reply doesn't have fluent enough English to even form valid arguments, but from what I understood - nobody said you can't add black sidekicks to make the story better. And besides, even if the other race is not familiar with said black one, that doesn't mean it will be surrounded with insults. I don't know what kind of stereotypes are stuck in your head, but most decent designers do not necessarely choose to insult a particular race in their projects for no reason.

First, get that "your grammar and english is terrible" sh*t out of the topic, and to think reasonably, adding black sidekick isn't really recommended. Look at the way that the hundreds of mission pack adding black character as major character affect the racism.

 

You can't easily add the N-words or any complex bad words from black people you created, unless you are a black designer. or you add neutral one who doesn't being addicted to indignity, there a reason to add insults because of the violence action, and I don't think you remember there was more N words in the actual SA game written by white developers and telling me that the words of fierceness isn't necessarely for some games.

Edited by Seth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
1 minute ago, Target13 said:

Ideally you would but chances are you have been inspired by certain elements of other missions and designed your own rendition, this includes the male lead. The question I wanna ask is why must a white male lead be the default? Why not a woman? Why not a person of color who isn't a gangster? Why not a gay person?

 

*Where does a female lead fit into a gangbanging/military plot realistically?
*Where does a homosexual fit into a gangbanging/military plot realistically?

*Where does a non gangbanging black guy fit into a gangbanging plot realistically?

I used gangbanging/military plots as examples because that's almost all the storylines I see for DYOM, excluding "X kills CJ" or "CJ kills X" drivel. Don't get me wrong, I'd like it to work too because I've been pushing for female protagonists for a while now, but to have an X protagonist and make a big deal about it just for the sake of having one defeats the purpose of even having one in the first place. Look at the GTA 3 plot for example; Guy gets betrayed by former lover and has to kill her while working for other crime groups. What would the plot benefit if Claude were black, or gay, or the genders were reversed and Claude were a woman and Catalina being a man?

 

8 minutes ago, Target13 said:

That being said, in hindsight, 'trend' was the wrong word to use. I don't mean to say diverse leads should be a trend but rather an option adjunct to the default. Nobody is saying that designers shouldn't have white male leads, but they shouldn't block out other options

 

Maybe white males are diverse where the designers live? If they're all from southeast asia, the middle east, or latin america, white people are pretty rare, for lack of a better term. Again, it goes back to my point above, what does their plot benefit with having a gay/black/female lead as opposed to a generic white guy?

 

11 minutes ago, Target13 said:

That being said, in hindsight, 'trend' was the wrong word to use. I don't mean to say diverse leads should be a trend but rather an option adjunct to the default. Nobody is saying that designers shouldn't have white male leads, but they shouldn't block out other options

 

It already is an option. It isn't like your computer automatically melts into a puddle if you select anything other than a white guy to be the protagonist. People can do it and I'm sure if we look far back enough, we can find storylines with female/gay/black leads, but ultimately it's the designer's choice to see what they want out of the protagonist and a lengthy post very likely won't change their minds. 

 

14 minutes ago, Target13 said:

Still I don't believe I ever said this is a major problem. It just something I am trying to apply to my work and I suggest other designers try it out too.

You never said it was a major problem, you just suggested a call-to-arms to get more minorities in storylines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Half-Blood Prince

Hey @AnDReJ98, look at that. I've just predicted the future. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
omigawail

This thread spawned a discussion to a degree I never thought possible in the dyom community. 4 hours and already 20 posts.

 

13 minutes ago, Target13 said:

That being said, in hindsight, 'trend' was the wrong word to use. I don't mean to say diverse leads should be a trend but rather an option adjunct to the default. Nobody is saying that designers shouldn't have white male leads, but they shouldn't block out other options

While trying to be more inclusive is always a positive thing, nobody is in a position to dictate what other people should and shouldn't do in their missions. Besides, untypical characters are already an option, but if the designers don't like working with them (because they are harder to write and develop interesting personalities for, and no, being gay or being a woman is not a personality trait).

 

3 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

You never said it was a major problem, you just suggested a call-to-arms to get more minorities in storylines.

When you put it that way, of course it sounds like a bad thing. What he is doing is urging people to be more creative with their characters. Making diverse characters that don't look and feel like generic blatant copies of each other is hard. Of course, it's not all about gender and race, but doing the same white man over and over again for dozens of missions gets old after a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
universetwisters
1 minute ago, omigawail said:

When you put it that way, of course it sounds like a bad thing. What he is doing is urging people to be more creative with their characters. Making diverse characters that don't look and feel like generic blatant copies of each other is hard. Of course, it's not all about gender and race, but doing the same white man over and over again for dozens of missions gets old after a while.

 

Then blame whoever's writing the storyline for being bland and generic as opposed to blaming them for using generic character skins. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seth
5 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

 

Then blame whoever's writing the storyline for being bland and generic as opposed to blaming them for using generic character skins. 

We not only trying to do more black protagonist missions, but trying to do more types of missions as possible. When we feel we are in the maximum of repeating the type over again, we will move on new ideas, since regular designers will always do a black protagonist in Gangster theme mission pack, can you find me a white protagonist in gangster type of mission? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Target13
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

*Where does a female lead fit into a gangbanging/military plot realistically?
*Where does a homosexual fit into a gangbanging/military plot realistically?

*Where does a non gangbanging black guy fit into a gangbanging plot realistically?

I used gangbanging/military plots as examples because that's almost all the storylines I see for DYOM, excluding "X kills CJ" or "CJ kills X" drivel. Don't get me wrong, I'd like it to work too because I've been pushing for female protagonists for a while now, but to have an X protagonist and make a big deal about it just for the sake of having one defeats the purpose of even having one in the first place. Look at the GTA 3 plot for example; Guy gets betrayed by former lover and has to kill her while working for other crime groups. What would the plot benefit if Claude were black, or gay, or the genders were reversed and Claude were a woman and Catalina being a man.

You're right here but this isn't what I'm calling for. This is forced diversity just like I stated in the OP.

 

4 hours ago, Target13 said:

When creators force diversity upon the audience by placing these characters in situations or places that feel out place.

 

But taking my own mission Agents of E.D.E.N for example. The essence of the plot wouldn't have changed if the lead was a female, so in a case like this why not try something different? Thus came Julie instead of John.

 

26 minutes ago, universetwisters said:

Maybe white males are diverse where the designers live? If they're all from southeast asia, the middle east, or latin america, white people are pretty rare, for lack of a better term. Again, it goes back to my point above, what does their plot benefit with having a gay/black/female lead as opposed to a generic white guy?

Simply by making their work stand out from the rest. But like I said here above, if a diverse person doesn't fit into the story then don't try and cram one in. 

Forced diversity < No diversity

 

Let me make it very clear. Designers are free to write their stories with whatever characters they want, nobody has the right to change that. Nobody should change that. Personally though, I feel diversity would benefit them if done properly.

Edited by Target13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Odyssey
Posted (edited)

Diversity is quite difficult when the few skins we have are mostly outdated 3d models consisting mainly of white guys in business suits. And most of the POC are dressed like gang members or drug dealers. A lot of the time I use skins from the main story cause they have more detail. 

 

Though i do understand where you're coming from. I'm very behind on the recent output of DYOM projects due to uni work and personal projects so I can't really give any examples, but when a mission pack has a diverse array of characters, then I'm instantly hooked. Diversity is great but I think whats more important is if these characters are written to have diverse personalities as well. 

Edited by The Odyssey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • 1 User Currently Viewing
    0 members, 0 Anonymous, 1 Guest

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using GTAForums.com, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.