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Zeebo

I don't "get" Arthur (SPOILERS)

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Zeebo

Hi, So I don't "get" Arthur. It seems as though most of the community thinks he is an excellent, well rounded character, which he might be. But something about him just doesn't "click" with me, and I'm not sure why. So I'll try and explain. 

 

PERSONALITY: Why does he do everything so begrudgingly? As if everything's a chore? It's like he's being held by the gang against his will. He talks about himself like he's a bad man (which he might be depending on how you play) but it's talked about numerous times in the story how most of the time they only robbed people who deserved to be robbed. Even when doing things outside of the main story he just seems full of self hate. There's an instance where he stands in front of a mirror if you rent a hotel room where he talks to himself as if he's trying to goad himself into committing suicide. I get that he's not very happy about the circumstances and I'll get to that in a little while. But there's also occasions where he seems full of joy. The LENNY!!!! mission for instance. Or if you choose to go fishing with Dutch and Hosea when you get to Rhodes. If you win a large pot when gambling for poultry amounts of money he acts as if he's become a millionaire by screaming and hollering over winning 3 Dollars and if you play honourably he actually does very little that could be considered bad. I don't believe that he's too dumb to grasp the situation. He strikes me as rather smart in particular instances, particularly the debt collector missions.

 

LOYALTY: Now the game centres around the downfall of the gang and the aftermath of the botched ferry robbery. We all know how it's going to end for the gang even Arthur who numerous times acknowledges that the gang is "done for". He says that the gang means everything to him which is fair considering that he has been apart of it since he was very young. But when things start getting really bad for the gang (chapter 4 and after) why doesn't he just leave? Sure he has a bounty on his head  but the Pinkertons offer him $5000 and his freedom for Dutch. I understand that he is extremely loyal but it's quite clear that Dutch loses his marbles after Hosea dies and how does he stay loyal after Dutch walks out on him at Cornwall Kerosene & Tar? Dutch leaves him for dead and yet he still goes back to him after the mission. Is there any reason for him sticking around outside of a ridiculous level of loyalty? The camp is in shambles, and many characters are dead. Like I said I understand loyalty but doesn't that seem a bit far fetched? He insists on "riding it out" even though he obviously doesn't want to. I am aware that he is semi-terminally ill however moving to a warmer climate is suggested by the doctor to help ease the tuberculosis. Him wanting to help John could be a reason to stick around but assuming you have thousands of dollars at the end of the game like I did it is very frustrating that the game doesn't acknowledge it. Even halfway through the game you get a massive payday that never gets mentioned.

 

I feel like they should have dedicated a short amount of the game to show us what it was like before everything went to hell. We would be able to see Arthur and the gang in their "natural habitat" I suppose. Because to my eyes all I see is an angry, sad man who sticks with Dutch through failed plan after failed plan. So is there something I'm missing? Does his story and character make more sense if I were to play dishonourably? Or is he just a pessimistic, self deprecating, stubborn man? Or perhaps I have spent way too much time thinking about this and should go outside. Either way...either way thanks for reading.

 

Zeebo

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RyuNova

Because hes a good and intelligent man thats locked in the body and persona of a brainless thug and deep down its killing him. Hes angry at himself, hes old and tired enough to realise that the best of him is being wasted.

Hes been brainwashed by Dutch since he was a young teen, he knows nothing else.

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Zeebo

Thank you for the response. So he knows the best of him is being wasted but is also brainwashed? That's the thing I don't get. He doesn't like being seen as a thug but goes along with it anyway? By the time chapter 4 rolls around it's pretty clear that he is disillusioned with Dutch and the gang. Like I said I feel like he is smart enough to just cut and run.

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RyuNova

Yes, remember he is loyal to Dutch AND the Gang including all the women and little Jack. He knows that if he cuts and runs Dutch will lead everyone including Jack to their deaths. His loyalty in Dutch may be wavering but not in the gang.

And where can he go? He has a five thousand dollar bounty on his head, thats a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in todays money. He and anyone he loves would be hunted down for the rest of their lives, he wouldn't do that to someone.

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Zeebo

Yes, that is a good angle. The loyalty to the rest of the gang members. However I covered in my original post that he was propositioned by the Pinkertons to hand over over Dutch and become a free man. Which would allow the rest of the gang members to go their own way. I suppose that the answer is just that he is unbelievably loyal to the point that even being left for dead by Dutch is still not a deal breaker for him. If I were left for dead by someone who I considered to be my father, it's safe to say I wouldn't be talking to him for a while.

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RyuNova
12 hours ago, Zeebo said:

Yes, that is a good angle. The loyalty to the rest of the gang members. However I covered in my original post that he was propositioned by the Pinkertons to hand over over Dutch and become a free man. Which would allow the rest of the gang members to go their own way. I suppose that the answer is just that he is unbelievably loyal to the point that even being left for dead by Dutch is still not a deal breaker for him. If I were left for dead by someone who I considered to be my father, it's safe to say I wouldn't be talking to him for a while.

 

Look at what happened with John in the first game. If Arthur did give up Dutch they would have just come for the rest of the Gang. They cant leave loose ends.

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RaigeGames

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that the gang life is all he knows. He's lived that life for so long that if he just up and left on a whim where would he go? How would he make a living? Another big thing is his loyalty to the gang. Toward the end of the game he tells Mary Linton that he wants to get out and run away with her, but there's people he has to take care of first. He doesn't want to leave the rest of the gang hanging so he's stays with them to make sure they will be taken care of when everything falls apart. RyuNova also makes a good point about taking the out that the Pinkertons give him. It didn't work out well for John in RDR1 and I think Arthur is smart enough to know that the deal won't hold and that they'd just hunt him down in the end anyway.

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Jimbatron

The thing to understand about Arthur is him and many of the characters are in a conflicted situation with no easy way out.

 

He clearly understands Dutch is going off the rails but this is the man who brought him up, taught him to read etc. He feels he has to try to bring him round, and might have succeeded, were it not for Micah’s malign influence.

 

He also doesn’t have the option to clear off altogether as there are too many others, notably Jack and Abigail he doesn’t want to see come to a bad end. This is why he comes back even after Dutch leaves him for dead right towards the end.

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RyuNova
1 hour ago, RaigeGames said:

RyuNova also makes a good point about taking the out that the Pinkertons give him. It didn't work out well for John in RDR1 and I think Arthur is smart enough to know that the deal won't hold and that they'd just hunt him down in the end anyway.

 

And if he was the rat how long before Milton gloats about it and John, Charles, Javier, Bill and Micah all start hunting Arthur down? As good as Arthur is he could not fight all of them as a coordinated group.

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Zeebo

The only reason John had to hunt down his former gang in the first game is because Javier, Bill and Dutch had formed new gangs. He didn't have to hunt down Charles, Sadie, Pierson, etc because they were living normal lives after the gang fell apart. As for the other responses I fell like my original post covered all that. Guess I'm just not seeing something that everyone else see's. Thank you all for your responses.

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UnexpectedParole

Zeebo, your points are not invalid, but I think I have a bit more to add later.

I also find this a valid and interesting discussion.

I need to finish work and drive a buddy somewhere for a bit after.  But I'll see if I can add anything later tonight central us time.

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RyuNova
3 hours ago, Zeebo said:

The only reason John had to hunt down his former gang in the first game is because Javier, Bill and Dutch had formed new gangs. He didn't have to hunt down Charles, Sadie, Pierson, etc because they were living normal lives after the gang fell apart. As for the other responses I fell like my original post covered all that. Guess I'm just not seeing something that everyone else see's. Thank you all for your responses.

 

They were visible loose ends. Bill started his own Gang and was an idiot about it, Dutch had to die, Javier was already a wanted man in Mexico before he joined Dutch. Charles was clever enough to go far and lay low, Sadie became legit and had the backing of many high profile people like Sheriffs and contractors with money. Pearson had no name for himself and was instantly forgettable.

 

John had to be silenced because he also knew too much about Ross and the FBI (BOI) formally the Pinkertons and how they did things.

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Zeebo

I feel like we're getting slightly off topic. Arthur had no way of knowing that any of these things would transpire.

 

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RyuNova
39 minutes ago, Zeebo said:

I feel like we're getting slightly off topic. Arthur had no way of knowing that any of these things would transpire.

 

Maybe not what would happen with John but he knew what would happen to the rest of the Gang if he left. He had been in that life for twenty years, he knew how it played out.

He was the first voice of caution we hear against going towards "all that...civilisation", even over Hosea who is the voice of caution and logic.

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Zeebo
3 minutes ago, RyuNova said:

Maybe not what would happen with John but he knew what would happen to the rest of the Gang if he left. He had been in that life for twenty years, he knew how it played out.

He was the first voice of caution we hear against going towards "all that...civilisation", even over Hosea who is the voice of caution and logic.

I agree. I was specifically talking about how he wouldn't know who would live a straight life and who wouldn't had he taken the deal. Because besides John they left every other surviving non-criminal of the gang alone, to our knowledge. I do apologise for any miscommunication, this is getting rather complex.

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UnexpectedParole

Also zeebo, how much time are you spending in camp each day and are you playing white or red hat? (high or low honor) ?

 

I think some of the dialog changes with different honor levels so if we were playing different (I'm white hat) I might be getting different dialog than some-one who is playing red.

 

 

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Zeebo
5 minutes ago, UnexpectedParole said:

Also zeebo, how much time are you spending in camp each day and are you playing white or red hat? (high or low honor) ?

 

I think some of the dialog changes with different honor levels so if we were playing different (I'm white hat) I might be getting different dialog than some-one who is playing red.

 

 

I am also playing white hat.

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Zeebo
19 minutes ago, Zeebo said:

I am also playing white hat.

I normally try and hear most of the dialogue in camp between missions.

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RaigeGames
2 hours ago, Zeebo said:

I do apologise for any miscommunication, this is getting rather complex.

No apologies needed, I think this is  great topic and discussion. You have made very valid points

 

I think the way I see it is that Dutch had given Arthur everything. He saved Arthur from a life on the streets when he was young and I think Arthur sticks around through everything because he's hoping that he can return the favor and save Dutch.

But what else is keeping him there too is Abigail and Jack (and ultimately John). IIRC Arthur writes something in his journal about sometimes thinking he should have been the one to marry her instead of John. He cares about her very much and he wants Jack to be able to grow up away from the outlaw life so he himself will not leave until he knows at least they are taken care of and safe.

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Zeebo
41 minutes ago, RaigeGames said:

No apologies needed, I think this is  great topic and discussion. You have made very valid points

 

I think the way I see it is that Dutch had given Arthur everything. He saved Arthur from a life on the streets when he was young and I think Arthur sticks around through everything because he's hoping that he can return the favor and save Dutch.

But what else is keeping him there too is Abigail and Jack (and ultimately John). IIRC Arthur writes something in his journal about sometimes thinking he should have been the one to marry her instead of John. He cares about her very much and he wants Jack to be able to grow up away from the outlaw life so he himself will not leave until he knows at least they are taken care of and safe.

Thank you for your input. I'm on my 3rd playthrough and I'm glad that I can fully enjoy the game now that I know how Arthur see's the situation and what his goals are.

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TexasOdysseus

Lot of good points here and, to the overall character development and story arcs we see, Arthur (and many of them, really) are complex people. 

 

Why doesn't Arthur leave? Already touched upon, but also Stockholm Syndrome. Why do battered women not always leave their abusers? Hostage crisis psychological dynamic. This is why the Mary chapters were important--because it showed an alternate reality for Arthur, hope, a different tack. And then regret. Lot of heavy stuff going on here. 

 

And then Arthur has the redemptive arc, to help others, to get John and his family out, and he realizes he's expendable. I remember one line in particular (and I think he said it to Micah), that he was the show pony once, and now he's the workhorse. That kind of summed up his role in a lot of ways. 

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UnexpectedParole
On 3/30/2019 at 12:49 PM, TexasOdysseus said:

Lot of good points here and, to the overall character development and story arcs we see, Arthur (and many of them, really) are complex people. 

 

Why doesn't Arthur leave? Already touched upon, but also Stockholm Syndrome. Why do battered women not always leave their abusers? Hostage crisis psychological dynamic. This is why the Mary chapters were important--because it showed an alternate reality for Arthur, hope, a different tack. And then regret. Lot of heavy stuff going on here. 

 

And then Arthur has the redemptive arc, to help others, to get John and his family out, and he realizes he's expendable. I remember one line in particular (and I think he said it to Micah), that he was the show pony once, and now he's the workhorse. That kind of summed up his role in a lot of ways. 

 

Good points.  I'm 95% certain Arthur told John that quote since it was delivered in an implied manner that 'you are the show pony now'. He would not have bad mouthed Dutch to Micah like that. I would believe he said it to Sean before Micah if it isn't John.  If I could specify the mission I'd be more certain.

 

I'll agree with the battered woman analogy, especially considering the rest of the gang as the "kids" who would have to be left behind. I had less time this weekend than I expected, so I didn't get around to posting what my thoughts are.

ll try to go into my more in depth review/ reply later tonight.

 

 

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UnexpectedParole
Posted (edited)

Sorry, I don't see where to edit the previous post, so this will be a double. ,and I'm terrible at edidting and jumping about a bit, so pardon the bad format. there is just so much going on. lol.

 

I'm going to back up a bit and disagree with texasodysseus a bit.  I don't think Arthur considered himself "expendable". I think he considered himself expended. To me, expendable is "If I don't come out of this alive, then that is ok. It's worth it."  But he knows he is not coming out alive. He's a relic and dinosaur, and terminal. "We'll since I'm done, let's at least get something out of this worth while." Schemantics maybe, but a difference I feel important to make. TB aside as well. He knew he had no safe retirement future, but John and Jack and Abigail (and Tilly, Karen, Mary Beth etc too.) all had possible legit  legal lives after the fall.

 

ok, that bit aside. The meat of the op that I wanted to talk about.

Quote

 

PERSONALITY: Why does he do everything so begrudgingly? As if everything's a chore? It's like he's being held by the gang against his will. He talks about himself like he's a bad man (which he might be depending on how you play) but it's talked about numerous times in the story how most of the time they only robbed people who deserved to be robbed. Even when doing things outside of the main story he just seems full of self hate. There's an instance where he stands in front of a mirror if you rent a hotel room where he talks to himself as if he's trying to goad himself into committing suicide. I get that he's not very happy about the circumstances and I'll get to that in a little while. But there's also occasions where he seems full of joy. The LENNY!!!! mission for instance. Or if you choose to go fishing with Dutch and Hosea when you get to Rhodes. If you win a large pot when gambling for poultry amounts of money he acts as if he's become a millionaire by screaming and hollering over winning 3 Dollars and if you play honourably he actually does very little that could be considered bad. I don't believe that he's too dumb to grasp the situation. He strikes me as rather smart in particular instances, particularly the debt collector missions.

 

 

 

Let's go with my answers/responses in order to each question mark.

 

Everything begrudingly?  I think "everything" is a stretch here. If I recall correctly, Arthur was more than happy to go on Most of the early missions in chapter 2 and chapter 3. Maybe even later, but I'm forgetful.

I really want to go through each mission in order and count, but we'd never get there at the rate I'm playing and replying, and no-one wants that wall of text. So I'll stick with the ones that really stick out to me, and go with that.  He does not want to save Micah in Strawberry. Micah was a world class jerk, newcomer to the gang and bad news, He was not family in any sense of the word, and the gang would have been better off without him even if you discount the ratting them out.  So I really can't fault Arthur for that one. - He jumped at saving Sean. He teased Sean about the rescue, but he had zero issue with risking himself for it. Sean was family and deserved the Loyalty. Micah did not. 

He didn't want to risk the cold to find John. I admit that was a mistake and a faling. he even realizes that in the end. He thoguht John was already cut and run and didn't want to find out he was right. But he did for family, Hosea and Abigail and Jack. i'll give you that one, but he was still fealing betrayed by the lost year.

He went with Javier quickly to rob the homestead, the first collection missions for Strauss were no problem. He balked at the Emerald Ranch misison with Hosea because of the high risk / low reward while needing to lie low. I'll give you that one. He went quickly with Sean and Lenny to rob homestead, shady belle and then the coach.  He went quickly with Charles to hunt, and jumped at the re-location missions.

 

The other missions he objected to that stick out to me were the revenge missions. For example Bronte, Cornwall, and Sadie's Hanging Dog ranch mission. Those he did against his own wishes becuase that was against what the code of the gang was supposed to be. Dutch was going against what Arthur had grown up using to justify and reconcile the morality of thier lifestyle with. Once you disprove the base lie of the bedrock foundation of belief that justifes years of behavior, very very bad things happen.

 

Of course he objected to the poorly scouted / planned missions with less than reliable gang members. He clearly didn't trust Micah The unlce stage robbery mission or meet with O'Driscoll missions for example. He was trying to protect against the loss of lfie and increase of heat / pressure. When Dutch the brilliant leader who had for so long kept them all safe started to unravell and Arthur the bad strong man enforcer has to be the voice of reason, I understand his very discouraging postion.  

 

I understood it as Arthur's main goal in life was to ensure safety for his family. -The gang. Loyalty to them was all he ever had. And once the plan to flee west where thier lifestyle could be continured, he quickly realized how un-popular and unforgiving thier lawless ways was in the east. And how much risk it placed the gang in. Not only in the potential capture of Dutch, Hosea, Bill or anyone else. But the outright risk of being shot dead in a failed mission or ambush by the increasingly brazen and lethal pinkertons.  I don't think Athur was against doing the work, robbing, killing or anything. just more at the methods and timing. the gang needed to lie low and would not. They needed to do it further west where the law was easier to dodge and hide from. There were many conversations where he tried to explain to people that thier way of life was coming to an end. -Which in itself is a plea to stop living that way I feel.

 

My take on the Robin Hood characterization.

I really suspect Dutch used the Robin Hood giving away of the first bank robbery money to set the tone, and then weaned them off that practice so slow they never realized they had stopped. -"We haven't done that in a while" was a realization. And how could they? They needed money to go to Tahiti...

I think Arthur was realizing more and more that they did not only just rob from people who deserved to be robbed from. Hindsight for him as things went on, he saw it wasn't true. The ferry wasn't folk who deserved to be robbed from. Or even if they did, the people who had to die to pull that robbery off did not deserve to die. It's not like Dutch and the Boys only went around stealing from and killing O'Driscolls.  They stole from folks who the o'Drisolls would have stolen from like the train in Chapter 1.

And sure they let a wagon train of women and kids go free and did not steal from them. And when the O'Driscolls slaughtered those people and took the money instead. Dutch and his merry band didn't lift a finger to go after the money then. Dutch shows just the right amount of control when taking Arthur aside and doing what ever he needs to calling him son. and making sure arthur remembers the good things so he is still loyal. he does it to Hosea, to Javier, John.  A "give to the poor" misison here or there would fit right in.

 

Arthur was a bad man. Full stop. He shot folk in the back. He stole. He beat folks for collections. We are talking pre-RDR2 so what we do, or do not do is moot. And even playing white hat, our Arthur does some really bad stuff as well. They killed a train load of guys for 1000 dollars worth of bearer bonds. They killed a refinery's worth of guys for some paper. Shooting up Strawberry like that would leave a permanent mark on the community. As would shooting up Valentine, Rhodes, and Annesburg. I'm sure there are more, but those alone are proof enough. Not to mention the later bank robberies and train robberies, which lost money would have put real hard times on folks, not to mention the dead bodies all over San Denis in botched robberies, Van Hon in the Rescue, and Siska for that resuce as well. And all are story missions you can't get around.

-Yes, My arthur killed and stole primarily from the O'Driscolls, Lemoyne Raiders, and Murfree Brood. But that was a few months worth of work -all while killing lots of 'innocents- vs years and years of pre-RDR2 killings and robberies.

 

 

Quote

feel like they should have dedicated a short amount of the game to show us what it was like before everything went to hell. We would be able to see Arthur and the gang in their "natural habitat" I suppose. Because to my eyes all I see is an angry, sad man who sticks with Dutch through failed plan after failed plan. So is there something I'm missing? Does his story and character make more sense if I were to play dishonourably? Or is he just a pessimistic, self deprecating, stubborn man? Or perhaps I have spent way too much time thinking about this and should go outside. Either way...either way thanks for reading.

 

While I agree the story telling was a little ham-fisted and confliciting in places, I don't know about actually seeing what happened before. It's like the Calvin and Hobbes bit I can't articulate right now, but there is a thread some-where. The events are more powerful and meaningful since they are left to the imagination, or the like, One of my biggest 'complaints' in the stories is that Davey and Mac were the only two other gang members ever mentioned. And Charles and Lenny and Micah have not been around long? The gang sounds a lot more like a bunch of travelling communists until you recall Davey and Mac were supposedly two really, really hard cases. Mean men. And so was Arthur..

 

 

I think the bad times now living with Dutch's failings now and trying to save folks is 1000% better than finding out the past 20 years of stealing and killing has been a lie. Thinking it might be a lie, worrying about Dutch's loyalty, that is bad it is depressing. Knowing the man who saved you and you have dedicated your life to would just walk away with zero loyalty would crush anyone like Arthur or John. John at least had Abigail and Jack to turn to. Arthur had nothing. -Hosea was already gone when Dutch walked out of the refinery on him and made it more clear. 

 

I think the "natural habitat" bit was a lie.  You see how Dutch is now. And without the hard push of Pinkertons amd civilization clsoing in, then I suspect the previous years were just all more of this same thing. Like chapter 2 for the most part. Sans Micah and the dead or alive status in west Elisabeth. Knock off a bank, knock off a train, rob a homstead, pull  a scam. once in a while it goes wrong and you have to relocate. Dutch takes the money and stores it. Dutch hoarded the money and they lost it all at Blackwater. Before that they "had" money and no real need to hide. But Dutch had the money, so really what did they have?

anyway, way long winded, sorry for the format, and wall of text. just lots of things I figured needed said.

 

cheers folks.

Edited by UnexpectedParole
fixed some mis-speelings and added a few more clarifying points

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TexasOdysseus

Hey U.P- that was really well stated! Thanks for taking the time to put it all down, too, because it was a very thoughtful breakdown of a lot of events. Expended, not expendable...perfectly said.

 

 

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Smokewood
On 3/27/2019 at 2:41 PM, RyuNova said:

Yes, remember he is loyal to Dutch AND the Gang including all the women and little Jack. He knows that if he cuts and runs Dutch will lead everyone including Jack to their deaths. His loyalty in Dutch may be wavering but not in the gang.

And where can he go? He has a five thousand dollar bounty on his head, thats a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in todays money. He and anyone he loves would be hunted down for the rest of their lives, he wouldn't do that to someone.

Mary offered him a way out, and when he turned her down it was 100% unbelievable to me when I played through the first time. After that the story lost some weight to me. I know for sure Arthur would have left with Mary.

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UnexpectedParole
4 hours ago, Smokewood said:

Mary offered him a way out, and when he turned her down it was 100% unbelievable to me when I played through the first time. After that the story lost some weight to me. I know for sure Arthur would have left with Mary.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

John was gone for a year and it took Arthur a very long time in this game -which was years past the event to forgive him.  This is covered in several conversations during several missions, and most specifically in the Bruised Ego mission with Hosea.

 

Arthur actually killed for, and would have died for his gang family if TB had not taken that from him. 

Mary would have required Arthur to change who he was, and he could not do that. Yes he very much wanted to. He wanted to, but could not.  Arthur was one of the least selfish characters I have seen in a long time. Leaving the gang behind to deal with Dutch's insanity and the impending doom alone just to be with Mary would to me have been an act far too selfish for Arthur to have actually gone through with.

 

I can't even begin to speculate what evidence you have that makes you certain. Do you mind sharing something I missed?

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Oldsport
9 hours ago, Smokewood said:

Mary offered him a way out, and when he turned her down it was 100% unbelievable to me when I played through the first time. After that the story lost some weight to me. I know for sure Arthur would have left with Mary.

so if the girl that broke your heart came back to you and said "run away with me" would you do it? i dont think arthur wouldve, im glad he didnt. that wouldve been unbelievable for me

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Smokewood
On 4/3/2019 at 4:40 PM, UnexpectedParole said:

I wholeheartedly disagree.

John was gone for a year and it took Arthur a very long time in this game -which was years past the event to forgive him.  This is covered in several conversations during several missions, and most specifically in the Bruised Ego mission with Hosea.

 

Arthur actually killed for, and would have died for his gang family if TB had not taken that from him. 

Mary would have required Arthur to change who he was, and he could not do that. Yes he very much wanted to. He wanted to, but could not.  Arthur was one of the least selfish characters I have seen in a long time. Leaving the gang behind to deal with Dutch's insanity and the impending doom alone just to be with Mary would to me have been an act far too selfish for Arthur to have actually gone through with.

 

I can't even begin to speculate what evidence you have that makes you certain. Do you mind sharing something I missed?

 

On 4/3/2019 at 8:53 PM, Oldsport said:

so if the girl that broke your heart came back to you and said "run away with me" would you do it? i dont think arthur wouldve, im glad he didnt. that wouldve been unbelievable for me

He would have left.

He regretted not marring her to begin with and by chapter 4 he was done with the gang.

All he really cared about was Hosea...

The story about saving John and his family was forced for the story of RDR1.

He had, in my game, over $6,000 in his pocket. He could have gave 1/2 to John and said "get out of here before it's too late, I'm leaving"

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HeyThereFriend

This is a well written post!

 

I think he knows he has to leave, I think he knows he wants to leave but he just can't bring himself to do so. This gang is his family, no matter how wrong they might be, it's his family and it's very hard to walk away from all that you've known and loved.

 

From the beginning of the game, I think he see's this is all falling apart and the gang won't go on much longer, so it upsets him, it angers him. So everything that the gang does, he is not too thrilled about. As for taking the Pinkertons deal, Arthur is a smart man, he knows what would happen to him if he did take the deal. Look what happened to John.

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UnexpectedParole
Posted (edited)
On 4/11/2019 at 5:08 PM, Smokewood said:

 

He would have left.

He regretted not marring her to begin with and by chapter 4 he was done with the gang.

All he really cared about was Hosea...

The story about saving John and his family was forced for the story of RDR1.

He had, in my game, over $6,000 in his pocket. He could have gave 1/2 to John and said "get out of here before it's too late, I'm leaving"

 

So you don't have any text / dialog/ plot points to share?

In my game he had over $6000 as well. And while he could have given John half, I don't see any evidence that says he would have.  All evidence points to the fact that it was not the money that mattered or held him back. It was the loyalty to the gang family.  Chapter 4 he was not "done with the gang" as I recall.** more on this later He was very much done with sloppily planned missions and unsafe behavior, but not the people. He very much cared for Jack. And he regretted not marrying Abigail <this is in the journal> as well as 'regretting' not marrying Mary  .  Also, while he may have regretted not marrying Mary, it was the wife part he wanted, not the leaving the gang part. Hosea had a wife and stayed with the gang. John had Abigail with. Dutch at one time had Annabelle with , and to a degree this time he has Molly. The Arthur I saw would have loved to have had Mary as a wife, but with the gang not instead of the rest. And it was the fact that Mary required one or the other that made it regrettably impossible for Arthur to marry her.

 

I don't find his story of saving the family forced due to RDR 1. I never played that game. And what I have heard in it is completely irrelevant to what Arthur does. What I see is a man who lost his childhood have a redemption story. In which after finding out he was terminally sick and the gang on a suicide course decided to try and save Jack the same fate as himself by getting his parents out from under the spell of Dutch and out of danger from the Pinkertons. 

RDR1 could not exist and that plot line would still play out very well...Heck, he could have sailed away with Mary and RDR1 still could have happened lock stock and barrel. Rockstar did not need Arthur to save John's family to have RDR1 happen or make sense. Come to think about it, in some versions Arthur doesn't save John, he goes for the money. John still gets away and Abigail gets him to go to Beecher's Hope and RDR1 still happens. so I'll stop dragging this dead horse through the mud, Arthur saves John Abigail and Jack because it makes sense for Arthur's story. Full stop.

 

I'll have to go back and do that mission with Mary and her father over again, because I do not at all recall Arthur agreeing to meet her and leave the gang. In fact when I got the letter from her complaining I had stood her up I was like "what is she talking about?" And that would be about the only piece of literary proof you'd have to stand on. 

 

** "done with the gang by chapter 4. more:

What proof of this is there? In chapter 6 he blesses Trelawney's leaving. He knows it is over, he tells Josiah he has his blessing to leave. He tells John it's over and he'll need to leave. He sends Sadie and Tilly away with Abigail and Jack. I would believe if Pearson had asked permission Arthur would have given it. But that is Chapter 6 a long time after chapter 4.

in chapter 4 he supports Dutch's attempt on the Trolley station and supports the robbing of the Bank. He's not given up on anyone that I have seen. Other than Micah, who as we all know he never supported in the first place. 

 

Again, do you have any in game dialog, references, or support to help show me where your position comes from?

 

-Because frankly to me, a story where Arthur would have just shot Micah in Chapter 2 after the Strawberry escape would be more believable than him leaving with Mary in chapter 4.

"Sorry Dutch, we just couldn't get away in time and the lawmen shot him. I got that guy though."  :shrug: 

coincides with more plot and text than 

"Hey guys, enjoy this postcard from my honeymoon. Mary and I hope the Pinkertons have not caught and killed you all yet".

-cheers

Edited by UnexpectedParole
to add my two bits about Micah

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