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ALifeOfMisery

RED DEAD ONLINE BETA: THE ROAD AHEAD (19/3/19)

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Hunterrrr
38 minutes ago, The Deadite said:

Not to defend him, but when you fight back and repeatedly kill your griefer, chances are... you have become red yourself.

 

Its better to just switch sessions and leave those morons to get bored, they are not worth the time and bounty money.

While I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. I just can't do it, I'm too petty. lol 

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Dr.Rosenthal
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, P.T. said:

What i find funniest is , they guy complaining about people not wanting to be killed for minding their own business is complaining that people might kill him for no reason while minding his own business. Isn't it ironic?

 

This is precisely my sentiment, too. First @Lord-Sam is complaining about "crybaby" sessions. Then when when you ask "What is your specific problem with other people playing the game how they want? You'll still have freemode PvP, Showdown Series, and Stranger Missions - to name a few."

 

And then he brings up how it's problematic because people will abuse the Defensive-toggle like they do on GTAO. It doesn't add up to me. What's that got to do with "crybaby" PvE sessions?

 

But I feel like we'll just have to wait and see how it works out in practice.

Edited by Dr.Rosenthal

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ALifeOfMisery
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

people will abuse the Defensive-toggle like they do on GTAO

This doesn't add up to me either.

 

Two players cross paths, both in defensive mode, neither player can lock on, neither player can be dealt a critical hit.

 

If one of those players switches to offensive mode, because the other is still defensive, neither player can lock on, neither player can be dealt a critical hit.

 

If a player stays in defensive mode throughout any engagement, it doesn't matter whether the other player can toggle between offensive and defensive, as it won't alter anything.

 

Where a problem could arise might be where 2 offensive players are fighting, if it can be toggled quickly and easily, a player could effectively switch auto aim on and off alongside the ability to tank more hits, effectively turning on both Slippery Bastard and Slow & Steady at the same time, without having to have either card.

 

Hopefully R* have had the foresight to see this coming and they apply a lengthy timer between changing play style.

 

But for players who intend to play defensively all, or even most of the time, this shouldn't be an issue.

Edited by ALifeOfMisery

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Jason

Personally I'm in the PvE/invite lobby camp, but we should probably wait for details on how it works exactly before tearing it to shreds, particularly when it comes to how it can be abused. Passive mode in GTAO has a timer so I don't imagine that you can toggle between defensive and offensive mode like a light switch.

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GenericGTAO

@ALifeOfMisery. In this matter,  i do not have faith....hope I am wrong.

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Madvillain
On 3/19/2019 at 1:14 PM, Rafae S said:

Hopefully this next update is in May. Still not sure when they plan to let go of this "beta" tag though.

What you didn't know? R* wants to set the record for the world's longest Beta.

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ALifeOfMisery
2 minutes ago, GenericGTAO said:

@ALifeOfMisery. In this matter,  i do not have faith....hope I am wrong.

I know where you're coming from, I generally have little to no faith in R*. But, as @Jason alluded to above, there's little point tearing the feature apart based on how it hypothetically might work or be abused.

 

On face value,  the new systems seem like a step in the right direction. If R* f*ck up I'll be taking place front and center when voicing my displeasure. But as they actually seem to be trying to move RDO in a positive direction I'm willing to wait and see how everything plays out.

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GenericGTAO
32 minutes ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

I know where you're coming from, I generally have little to no faith in R*. But, as @Jason alluded to above, there's little point tearing the feature apart based on how it hypothetically might work or be abused.

 

On face value,  the new systems seem like a step in the right direction. If R* f*ck up I'll be taking place front and center when voicing my displeasure. But as they actually seem to be trying to move RDO in a positive direction I'm willing to wait and see how everything plays out.

Some of the current attempts even in RDO are just terrible, for instance....just now, a level 5, melee kills me upon leaving the BW butcher, it spawns me across the river cause, reasons, then I ride back and kill him...he parleys.  This is the kindve play passive mode incentives, yes, griefers will grief, but this guy should not even have an option to parley me.  As I am sitting there, he spawns right on top of the butcher, he does the exact same b.s. to another guy.  I mean I will say, yes youre are technically correct, we dont know. But, I am goning off their history, everything implement is just used by griefers to grief and doesnt really help fair players, pve or pvp.

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ALifeOfMisery
33 minutes ago, GenericGTAO said:

Some of the current attempts even in RDO are just terrible, for instance....just now, a level 5, melee kills me upon leaving the BW butcher, it spawns me across the river cause, reasons, then I ride back and kill him...he parleys.  This is the kindve play passive mode incentives, yes, griefers will grief, but this guy should not even have an option to parley me.  As I am sitting there, he spawns right on top of the butcher, he does the exact same b.s. to another guy.  I mean I will say, yes youre are technically correct, we dont know. But, I am goning off their history, everything implement is just used by griefers to grief and doesnt really help fair players, pve or pvp.

You could have parleyed after the initial kill, you didn't, fair enough, you rode back, got your revenge kill, the level 5 parleyed, you're even. Yeah it's annoying, I'd be annoyed, but as soon as they parley, I win, move on.

 

I think it's an overreaction to say everything R* implement is used by griefers to grief, the proximity blips have been a good anti griefing measure in the most part. The bounty system was a missed opportunity, but it is basically a cash drain on high kill players, which isn't as good as it should have been, but still better than nothing.

 

The new Hostility system sounds promising, as does the Offensive/Defensive system. I complained at R*s complete lack of action towards griefing in GTAO, so I'm certainly not going to complain when they are clearly trying to make RDO a fairer environment to play in.

 

I'm one of the most anti griefer players you'll find on the forum, I've banged my head against a brick wall on many occasions over in the GTAO section arguing against destroying business sales and arguing for sales being allowed in invite only lobbies, on top of that I was one of the day 1 members of the largest friendly lobby cartel crew on PS4. There are few people who want a fair and enjoyable freeroam environment for everyone more than I do and I genuinely believe R* are moving RDO in a direction to try and achieve that, even if I disagree with the exact method, as I'd prefer lobby types.

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GenericGTAO

@ALifeOfMisery but it actually wasnt over, he killed another guy at the butcher, and why does he get to control when it ends? he started the fight, he should have to leave to avoid me, and if he does, he should not be able to join online for 5-10min.  The game should say, warning you killed a player and are engaged in fight now, if you leave, online access will be temporarily suspended.  Thats really how it should be.  The punishments they impose are a joke. Bad Sport, red dots...more visible, griefers dont give a crap about this.  Griefers wear this as badge of honor. 

 

The hostility system is in the game now, and Im pretty sure is the reason I spawn across the river and he, a blue dot, spawns right on top of the butcher. But being "even" with this butcher griefer, no, I am not even with this guy.   I was prepared to teach lessons.  But R* gave him the power, to not only engage me and cause me grief, that spawned me 30 secs away from where I was, but also the power to end the encounter basically whenever he decided to. 

 

This guy in the example is a griefer, and he is exploiting the system.  Everything R* has implemented to curb griefing thus far in GTAO and RDO, has ended up being a tool of griefers.   I will gladly provide examples of each and every one of them.  Take your pick.  

 

GTAO had so many attempts to stop griefing, they finally just said, f'it and added a flying micromachine, thats jets had massive trouble hitting...then every griefer used for months to fly at warp speed. Probably still using it. Not one thing implemented in GTAO curbed griefing because the punishments were nonexistent.  It was always just a half fix that ended up helping griefers in the end.  One of the best tools they tried, was ghost a player...lol, you could still mug them, as soon as the mugger hit, you could kill the player and get the mugger.  You could literally stand next to some poor sap, kill him on the ground and get the mugger and take his money.

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ALifeOfMisery

@GenericGTAO, dude, of course the other player controls when it ends, whether they parley, change session, turn off the game, they chose to end the interaction with you. 

 

As for your suggestions of punitive measures, seriously? Measures such as blocking access are never, ever going to happen. You seem to be wanting solutions that are so far outside of the realms of possibility that it might be an idea to manage your expectations a bit.

 

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I've said about all I can over the course of today and I'm too tired to start discussing the illusion of control.

 

Peace out dude.

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GenericGTAO

As always any person can disengage at any time, similar to this debate, but this and many like him, are griefing with essentially impunity because of R* bs half fixes.  If he wanted to stop me from killing him 3 times in a row, he at least had to leave the session prior to this parley change.  A minor form of what I suggested as it would take him a minute to reload.

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Bakkerbaard
Posted (edited)

I came here to fart out my opinion too, but I got sucked up in reading how the whole coming new system got torn up based on a paragraph. Lot of mud slinging, but it's nice to see some well constructed arguements too.

Either way, Rockstar could turn our blips into carebears and have us protected by the warm embrace of our lord and saviour Fred Christ (Jesus was busy) and a griefer would still find a way to exploit that system. It's simple human nature. If there's a way to be a dick, however implausible, someone will roll on up and be a dick.

 

Case in point: I used to play Minecraft on PS4 with my stepkid. She discovered that I could not place a block if she was standing in that spot.

There you go. We don't play anymore. To further strengthen my point: She invented a crude way of teabagging me while doing it all on her own.

Where humans are involved, things will turn to sh*t. Everyone can come and line up to argue against it right after this post, but it's the ones that don't who prove this hypothesis.

 

Sadly, a failsafe lobby-type option will most likely not be provided, so all we can do is hope Rockstar convolutes things so much that it turns into a dead jackrabbit, where you pick it up, stick a finger up it's ass and pull until it turns into something useful again.

In their defense; I recall alot of complaining ahead of time about the blip-system we now have and it works better than expected. I'm guessing not "as intended", but still.

Edited by Bakkerbaard

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shortround669

Why is everybody assuming that you can switch between play styles like passive mode in GTA? What if the case is that you have to choose your playstyle when you log in and you can't change till you log out? That was my read into it.

 

I wanted separate Lobbies when i first started playing but as i see it R* want to change this game from the way GTAV was played to a new system. Let's give them a chance, maybe? 

 

I would never play GTA in a public session because toxic but RDR2? I like public. Makes it alive. But at the same time i like fishing and not being shot in the back of the head by the qunt who thinks that gives balls...

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MXVC
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, rusbeckia said:

I get your point. But I know from experience that a lot of players (myself included) like the PvP aspect mixed with PvE as it is right now. I have no interest in constantly killing everybody, but I want to have the possibility, if things happen to evolve in a certain, hostile direction. 

 

For me and a lot of other players PvP is just part of the whole package, which doesn‘t mean that I don‘t like PvE. It‘s just the mixup of it that makes this game interesting imo. 

And yes, there‘s a tremendous difference between PvP-modes and PvP in freeroam. PvP in freeroam has a dynamic to it, which is just exciting. Showdown get boring pretty soon cause it‘s always the same. 

In freeroam PvP you have basically an almost endless variety of gunfights between each other. Shotgun in the damp swamps, sniper-fights in the desert, lassoing wannabegriefers, etc, etc,

 

I‘d love it if the game gets lobby choices for all of you who just don‘t like the PvP aspect. But if they‘d be implemented they‘d need to make a mixed lobby like it is right now too. If it‘s only PvE OR PvP I and a few other people I know would most likely stop playing.

 

oh and f*ck Apex, COD, Pubg, fortnite and whatnot. I have basically no interest in a plain shooter.

 

it‘s the whole setting of RDR, the full package so-to-say which makes it a nice dynamic PvP/PvE experience imo, that‘s something completely different than a shooter.

Yes, yes, yes. A good balanced mix (like the game actually had at launch) is what is necessary for RDO to succeed. 

Edited by MXVC

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Talisman_83
22 minutes ago, MXVC said:

Yes, yes, yes. A good balanced mix (like the game actually had at launch) is what is necessary for RDO to succeed. 

If you want PVP, every time you jump in a lobby, have a look on the map for some red dots.

Bingo, there's your PVP.

Hassling someone who is fishing and wants nothing to do with you, or the PVP you seek, is not what the game needs to succeed.

All that it will do is drive people away.

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MXVC
16 minutes ago, Talisman_83 said:

If you want PVP, every time you jump in a lobby, have a look on the map for some red dots.

Bingo, there's your PVP.

Hassling someone who is fishing and wants nothing to do with you, or the PVP you seek, is not what the game needs to succeed.

All that it will do is drive people away.

What is with the irrational overreaction every time 'PvP' is mentioned? No one mentioned PvP 'every time', and PvP does not equal griefing. The game simply needs a proper balance between PvP and PvE. 

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Talisman_83
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MXVC said:

What is with the irrational overreaction every time 'PvP' is mentioned? No one mentioned PvP 'every time', and PvP does not equal griefing. The game simply needs a proper balance between PvP and PvE. 

I'm offering a viable solution to the PVP many people seek.

By attending to that PVP opportunity, it will help balance the game, as people who want to hunt and fish won't be subjected to it.

I'm also pointing out the undesirable form of PVP that isn't welcome - griefing.

I understand that griefers may not wish to partake in said PVP, so the only real solution for that is invite-only lobbies.

 

Edited by Talisman_83

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netnow66

It simply sounds as if some people are upset they won't have easy targets...

 

With this offensive/defensive flagging (and the tweaks to it that I believe will be coming), "I just don't want to play with you" will be the phrase of the day.

 

And thank goodness.

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rusbeckia
2 hours ago, netnow66 said:

It simply sounds as if some people are upset they won't have easy targets...

 

With this offensive/defensive flagging (and the tweaks to it that I believe will be coming), "I just don't want to play with you" will be the phrase of the day.

 

And thank goodness.

I wonder if Paint it Black will mark defensive tsrgets too. Would be contraproductive for balancing lol

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ALifeOfMisery
6 minutes ago, rusbeckia said:

I wonder if Paint it Black will mark defensive tsrgets too. Would be contraproductive for balancing lol

I'd hope not, but it would be typical or R* to introduce a system which prevents players being locked onto, only to allow them to be targeted with 100% accuracy.

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Mad-Monkey_1st
2 hours ago, netnow66 said:

It simply sounds as if some people are upset they won't have easy targets...

 

With this offensive/defensive flagging (and the tweaks to it that I believe will be coming), "I just don't want to play with you" will be the phrase of the day.

 

And thank goodness.

Nail on head there, lets wait and see if this tales away the cowardly type griefer as they are the ones most have issues with 

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Happy Hunter
6 minutes ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

I'd hope not, but it would be typical or R* to introduce a system which prevents players being locked onto, only to allow them to be targeted with 100% accuracy.

Paint It Black works on Slippery Bastard, so I can imagine it will.

 

Is defensive mode going to be active in jobs, or just free mode? Also, I don't really like that defensive players can lasso people. If offensive players can't lasso them, why can they lasso offensive players? Yes they'll get hostility points or whatever they call it, and (presumably) be kicked out of defensive mode - but by then I'm already uh, tied up.

 

Why not just not allow them? Anything we can't do to them, they shouldn't get to do to us.

 

Also struggling to see any point in not using defensive mode as well.

 

I'll wait and see, but there's so many things that get me concerned. So much that could go wrong.

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rusbeckia
20 minutes ago, Happy Hunter said:

Paint It Black works on Slippery Bastard, so I can imagine it will.

 

Is defensive mode going to be active in jobs, or just free mode? Also, I don't really like that defensive players can lasso people. If offensive players can't lasso them, why can they lasso offensive players? Yes they'll get hostility points or whatever they call it, and (presumably) be kicked out of defensive mode - but by then I'm already uh, tied up.

 

Why not just not allow them? Anything we can't do to them, they shouldn't get to do to us.

 

Also struggling to see any point in not using defensive mode as well.

 

I'll wait and see, but there's so many things that get me concerned. So much that could go wrong.

Did you know you could respawn using the menu while someone hogties you? 

I really HATED people that abused easy way out im gtao, but if some tryhard tackles and hogties you I only can laugh about the look he probably has in his face hahaha

 

someone recently hogtied me 5-6 times ina row and couldn‘t kill me once, cause I respawned before he was done hogtieing. So much lolz against griefers!

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ALifeOfMisery
30 minutes ago, Happy Hunter said:

Paint It Black works on Slippery Bastard, so I can imagine it will.

 

Is defensive mode going to be active in jobs, or just free mode? Also, I don't really like that defensive players can lasso people. If offensive players can't lasso them, why can they lasso offensive players? Yes they'll get hostility points or whatever they call it, and (presumably) be kicked out of defensive mode - but by then I'm already uh, tied up.

 

Why not just not allow them? Anything we can't do to them, they shouldn't get to do to us.

 

Also struggling to see any point in not using defensive mode as well.

 

I'll wait and see, but there's so many things that get me concerned. So much that could go wrong.

You're probably right. It seems like it might possibly be more trouble than it's worth, from R*s perspective, to disable PIB for and against Defensive players. I'll be in Defensive most of the time, if PIB works my strategy will be PIB 3 with dynamite arrows or ex/ex Springfield.

 

I'd guess, obviously none of us actually know, that if you start something like a Stranger mission you'd automatically switch to Offensive? Starting a mission in freeroam, which comes with the potential for PvP, should be classed as an offensive move, IMO.

 

I agree about the lasso, Defensive players shouldn't be able to lasso other players. Yeah they will take a Hostility hit and will be kicked out of Defensive mode, but that doesn't seem like much of a deterrent to me. I wonder if lasso tackling will be included?

 

It does seem that there isn't much reason not to play in Defensive mode as default, even for offensive minded players. 

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Tha-Jamz
17 hours ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

This doesn't add up to me either.

 

Two players cross paths, both in defensive mode, neither player can lock on, neither player can be dealt a critical hit.

 

If one of those players switches to offensive mode, because the other is still defensive, neither player can lock on, neither player can be dealt a critical hit.

 

If a player stays in defensive mode throughout any engagement, it doesn't matter whether the other player can toggle between offensive and defensive, as it won't alter anything.

 

Where a problem could arise might be where 2 offensive players are fighting, if it can be toggled quickly and easily, a player could effectively switch auto aim on and off alongside the ability to tank more hits, effectively turning on both Slippery Bastard and Slow & Steady at the same time, without having to have either card.

 

Hopefully R* have had the foresight to see this coming and they apply a lengthy timer between changing play style.

 

But for players who intend to play defensively all, or even most of the time, this shouldn't be an issue.

 

It will just result in griefers throwing dynamite or shooting explosive arrows/slugs at the feet of friendly/defensive players just to annoy them, this already happens very often when you are at your camp while you are cooking/baking, and what about our horses ?! mmm....

I keep saying private/invite only sessions !

 

I believe roleplaying and PVE players are also more likely to buy cosmetic items/clothing, just look at Warframe that is still being played sinds 2012 and is a free to play game with a big player base.

But hey what do i know...

On 3/19/2019 at 8:39 PM, Daleificent said:

I'm having a hard time getting what you ment on the last part.

 

PvE'ers leaving for the lack of FA lobbies as well?

Or PvE'ers having as many reasons to leave as the FA people do?

Both...

On 3/20/2019 at 12:06 AM, P.T. said:

Yeah, the whole auto aim along with use of ability cards already makes PVE boring and not fun. Either someone has an unfair advantage, or you can headshot with pin point accuracy ( or same done to you). Its not fun and people who want FA will in time get so fed up with it ( if they even try it at all) that they will clearly walk away for better games that do not cater to little kids. 

 

This idea you can mix the two properly is just gonna result in a ton of work they have to keep adjusting , fixing, changing and still not satisfying. When they could have simply just added back what was in other rd online and gta v . The only real thing that needed to be fixed about FA from GTA is not even have a assisted free aim at all. So you either play in auto aim or free aim lobbies. No other choices. 

Thats why we need private/invite only sessions, and that is a simple solution..., you dont need to mix that up (GTAV got invite only/private sessions) its not that difficult at all...

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DrKrankenstein
16 hours ago, Madvillain said:

What you didn't know? R* wants to set the record for the world's longest Beta.

lol overeacting much?

 

theres games that stay in beta.....

theres games that been in beta for years.

 

we're not even halfway there.

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ALifeOfMisery
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Tha-Jamz said:

I keep saying private/invite only sessions !

You're preaching to the choir mate. I have, and continue to, send feedback every single day (the RDO feedback site is my browser homepage) asking for Friendly Public, Free Aim and Invite Only lobby types.

 

I'll continue this for as long as I play RDO, or until lobby options are implemented.

 

However, I think we probably have to face up to the reality that lobby options aren't coming. R* aren't going to the lengths of coming up with these (unnecessarily) convoluted systems only to introduce lobby types which would completely negate the need for such systems further down the line.

38 minutes ago, Tha-Jamz said:

It will just result in griefers throwing dynamite or shooting explosive arrows/slugs at the feet of friendly/defensive players just to annoy them, this already happens very often when you are at your camp while you are cooking/baking, and what about our horses ?! mmm....

Griefers are going to grief, they'll find a way. It's one of the very unfortunate realities of online gaming, that where there is scope for someone to act like a d*ckhead, someone will take that opportunity, almost without fail.

 

R* could solve this with lobby types, but they seem to have a raging erection over having all play styles mingled at all times.

 

As for things like weapons griefers might use, yeah they probably will. The game will get to a point where the explosive ammo and dynamite arrows etc. are in regular use, that's what happens in perpetual games. 

 

In the absence of lobby options with no locked content, griefing can't be stamped out. As that isn't happening, I'd rather R* attempt to make griefing as difficult as possible, which is what they seem to be intent on, rather than do nothing, or in the case of GTAO, actually enable griefing.

 

Just like IRL, I'm not going to criticize anyone for trying to accomplish something positive, even if it fails. But I'll come down hard on those that don't try at all.

 

 

I genuinely never envisaged myself actually coming down on the side of R* as much as I have done these last two days.


I've spent pretty much since Gunrunning calling out R* on their sh*tty handling of GTAO over in the GTAO section. 

I feel like I need a shower lol.
 

 

Edited by ALifeOfMisery

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netnow66
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

Two players cross paths, both in defensive mode, neither player can lock on, neither player can be dealt a critical hit.

Don't misunderstand, I've read some of your other comments and I see you're anti griefer (kudos to you).

 

While I agree that we will have to wait and see how the new changes play out, if both players are in defensive mode, why are they even attempting to cross paths? Would this be an instance of an offensive player (cowardly) trying to take advantage of the system?

 

The way I see it, if I'm playing defensively, I'm not even remotely interested in crossing paths with anyone while in free roam.

 

But, again, I guess we'll have to see how the different permutations of the upcoming system play out, and I agree that different lobbies would solve it all. I guess it may take us continually complaining to Rockstar if this doesn't work.

Edited by netnow66

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P.T.
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, MXVC said:

What is with the irrational overreaction every time 'PvP' is mentioned? No one mentioned PvP 'every time', and PvP does not equal griefing. The game simply needs a proper balance between PvP and PvE. 

The problem must be your reading comprehension . Because I have yet to see anyone claim PvP means griefing. What has been said over and over is attacking a player who is minding thier own business " living their life" in free roam ( fishing, hunting , just going to the butcher to sell something) that is griefing because its exactly what it is. Its only done meant to annoy the person. If a person wants to have shootouts in free roam , no one has an issue with that part. But IF thats what someone wants and does not want to grief , then there is the option @Talisman_83 stated above. Look for the red dots in the free roam your in and go attack them all night long to your hearts desire. But if you refuse to do that, then your nothing but a griefer who just wants to annoy people because this easy 1 shot head shot little kid aiming system is in place. As i said before , i bet none of the people who grief are willing to turn their aim setting to free aim. Because they dont want a shoot out or to give the other person a chance, they just want an easy kill to make them feel good about themselves as if they are something when in reality its just cowardly.  

7 hours ago, netnow66 said:

It simply sounds as if some people are upset they won't have easy targets...

 

 

This is exactly it . People who have a problem with it simply just want easy targets to annoy. Its about annoying someone , its not about wanting action in the game. Its not about anything else but annoying someone because it makes kids feel powerful. Bottom line and any other excuse is nothing but an excuse to try to cover up that simple fact.

Edited by P.T.

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