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Agent_Zodiac

Does the game ever say what route the gang took from Blackwater to Colter?

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Agent_Zodiac

They were coming west when they arrived at Colter, right?

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Smokewood
3 hours ago, Agent_Zodiac said:

They were coming west when they arrived at Colter, right?

Read the journal.

They went from blackwater northwest, then turned east and went through the mountains.

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simmun

Initially, they came from the west (literally more west than New Austin - potentially South Western Territory and Canyon City ). They then came over the mountains to the Blackwater region. Blackwater heist went bad so they escaped up into the mountains again.  From Blackwater, they went northwest. I'm thinking they either went by Hanging Dog Ranch or Wallace Station which is the only two logically ways into Colter from Blackwater. 

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UnexpectedParole

Actually, they did not come by Wallace Station to get to Colter.  The entered Colter from the north via Spider Gorge. The got to Spider Gorge via the extreme NW of the rdr2 map from what ever state/country is NW of Ambarino there by Galcier.

 

I don't know how to prove it without 'spoiler' type material but the post by smokewood is pretty much correct. 

*But Jenny's grave is north of Colter in that Spider Gorge which is on the route they took to Colter. Davey died in Colter and was buried there. Jenny died before. Further both John and Micah are found east and south of Colter on the missions, and they were scouting ahead of the group. The men following would have to be north and west. (off the map in the NW)

 

So my guess for before the NW corner which is where we start rdr2.

The gang went west and northwest out of Blackwater off of the RDR2 map into the countries/states north and west of West Elizabeth and Ambarino.

 

I guess it is possible they went past Hanging Dog Ranch on the way out of Blackwater but that would have been a long time going north in West Elizabeth with the Law on their tail when he escape plan was to go west. This is still West Elizabeth yet the gang is not wanted north of the Upper Montana River so I can't think the Law chased them out of Blackwater through New Elizabeth up past Strawberry and Hanging Dog Ranch and then didn't bother to keep the wanted dead or alive status to look for them where they were last seen.

 

I feel it is much more likely that they went straight west out of Blackwater to Tall Trees and crossed west into the mountains by Aurora Basin. The map I have is vague as to passes and crossings in that area but I think they made their escape to the west either by going north of the basin or across the Lower Montana south of the basin. Then they headed north off the map to the west side of the mountain range that forms rdr2 map's west edge before circumstances forced them to the start of RDR2 in the NW of the map.. My second thought it they would have gone south and west to flee through New Austin to cross the Lower Montana and get out of state before then heading northwest past MacFarlane ranch into the mountains west of the Aurora Basin, but John says he's never been to New Austin, so probably not even though I could hear arguments for not wanting to say "oh yeah I went through New Austin before, but I was on the run from the Law so I can't talk about it.". It would be easier to just deny all knowledge.

 

And even if they did go past Hanging Dog Ranch to get to Colter I suspect they went North West up the Little Creek River off the map to go in a clockwise circular motion to get to Colter via the nw Corner instead of meandering up through Ewing Basin. Since Colm O'Driscoll and his lot that that area locked down. Again, the start of RDR2 has them moving se into Colter from the NW.

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RyuNova

They headed West from Blackwater and off the map as that was their orginal intention to keep going West. They were still being chased so they headed North into the frozen mountains to try and lose their pursuers (Bounty Hunters/Pinkertons would not be provisioned for cold temperatures so would need to back off, regroup and prepare themselves thus giving the gang time to get ahead)

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a z

Maybe this avalanche that's now outside the playspace was going to be used during their escape?


 

Spoiler

 

t49SLWV.jpg

 

1K7vDdR.jpg

 

Vidz8RR.png


 

 

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Slonitram
On 3/11/2019 at 1:40 AM, alz said:

Maybe this avalanche that's now outside the playspace was going to be used during their escape?


 

  Hide contents

 

t49SLWV.jpg

 

1K7vDdR.jpg

 

Vidz8RR.png

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Does your John have white hair or am I seeing things?

 

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a z
10 hours ago, TheSadisticOwl said:
  Hide contents

Does your John have white hair or am I seeing things?

 

He did have white hair, but only on the exposed sides, not under the hat.  It's a weird FX thing I've seen happen to other people too.

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Dark Rosewood Varnish

Well they must have got there via a route that was outside of RDR2's map. In the journal Arthur describes their journey up there was super treacherous to the point that no one could have possibly followed them, when in actual fact its pretty straight forward to get from Backwater to Colter and nowhere near as treacherous as he makes out.  

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crazedZ10
11 hours ago, Dark Rosewood Varnish said:

Well they must have got there via a route that was outside of RDR2's map. In the journal Arthur describes their journey up there was super treacherous to the point that no one could have possibly followed them, when in actual fact its pretty straight forward to get from Backwater to Colter and nowhere near as treacherous as he makes out.  

Remember that this was during a intense blizzard

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UnexpectedParole
On 3/12/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dark Rosewood Varnish said:

Well they must have got there via a route that was outside of RDR2's map. In the journal Arthur describes their journey up there was super treacherous to the point that no one could have possibly followed them, when in actual fact its pretty straight forward to get from Backwater to Colter and nowhere near as treacherous as he makes out.  

 

So I went back in this play through to check my theories and now I'm a little stumped.

I finally got the mission to get the Pipe for Dutch, and in the conversation Dutch says that it was lost during the Blackwater escape. The results of the campfire story with Lenny is he lost his watch during the escape as well. Both are found at Vettter's Echo which is just south of the Hanging Dog Ranch.

 

This causes continuity errors for me if we assume the gang was at that location during the escape. Since that leads to implying that the Little Creek route I discussed previously might be correct. But I traversed that route and it does not at all look like it would be passable to wagons.  Which means I'm forced to assume that the watch and pipe were lost on the escape and found by some-one who took them to the cabin.

 

But looking more and more makes me realize this map was created with no roads leaving the map to the west. I have found No-where in the universe would any regular folk cross west into the neighboring states, let alone a wagon train of outlaws. I mean I understand how for game play restrictions you have to have a map boundary. And mountains are super easy to do that with. However, does this work really?  We already accept that as Arthur -without glitching- you can't cross into North Elizabeth south of the Upper Montana River because you are wanted Dead Or Alive and Bounty Hunters will kill you dead.

 

Why isn't there a realistic road and rail network leading off the map into the west that has access blocked to the west for the gang by "Wanted Dead or Alive" prohibitions?

 

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a z

Cross post looking at how the avalanche area and some other out-of-bound details could have been Dutch's escape route from Blackwater into the winter wilderness.

 

 

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UnexpectedParole
Posted (edited)

Ok. I am bringing this back since other threads have sparked more discussions with new information.

 

Taking a hint from @TwistOfLime21 -thank you.  I restarted a game today and hit the map as soon as I was able in the game. I got markers placed on the map where Swanson jumps down to talk to Dutch, where the least white dot (charles) is in the back of the line.

 

I then marked where the map says we are when Arthur rides up to announce he's found Colter.

 

These are all off map and NW of where we find John. In fact, where Arthur first appears is darn near straight north of the source of the water flowing down spider gorge. (where javier and arthur find the campfire when looking for John I think.)

 

Also, as I stated elsewhere, Jenny's grave is placed such that the gang would have had to have tranported her dead body nearly the entire way to Colter and then stopped when known shelter  and warmth was nearby  to bury her.  I think I'm just going to have to assume they transported her all the way to Colter and then instead of burying her near Davey, some-one I'll assume is Lenny went ahead and risked the nasty weather (that killed my horse when I tried it) to take her back north a bit and bury her alone by the river.  I can't see a group of wagons carrying a wounded Davey stopping to bury dead Jenny before Colter.

 

R* likely just had to relocate her grave when Colter was moved and the off map position was dis-allowed. ?

 

Also, while it appears obvious to me that the territory a z is trying to bring in plays into this, I'm still having an issue getting them to Lake Isabelle. Has there been any mapping done south and west of the avalanche ?

 

Edited by UnexpectedParole

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GinsengElixir
On 3/5/2019 at 3:20 PM, UnexpectedParole said:

Actually, they did not come by Wallace Station to get to Colter.  The entered Colter from the north via Spider Gorge. The got to Spider Gorge via the extreme NW of the rdr2 map from what ever state/country is NW of Ambarino there by Galcier.

 

I don't know how to prove it without 'spoiler' type material but the post by smokewood is pretty much correct. 

*But Jenny's grave is north of Colter in that Spider Gorge which is on the route they took to Colter. Davey died in Colter and was buried there. Jenny died before. Further both John and Micah are found east and south of Colter on the missions, and they were scouting ahead of the group. The men following would have to be north and west. (off the map in the NW)

 

So my guess for before the NW corner which is where we start rdr2.

The gang went west and northwest out of Blackwater off of the RDR2 map into the countries/states north and west of West Elizabeth and Ambarino.

 

I guess it is possible they went past Hanging Dog Ranch on the way out of Blackwater but that would have been a long time going north in West Elizabeth with the Law on their tail when he escape plan was to go west. This is still West Elizabeth yet the gang is not wanted north of the Upper Montana River so I can't think the Law chased them out of Blackwater through New Elizabeth up past Strawberry and Hanging Dog Ranch and then didn't bother to keep the wanted dead or alive status to look for them where they were last seen.

 

I feel it is much more likely that they went straight west out of Blackwater to Tall Trees and crossed west into the mountains by Aurora Basin. The map I have is vague as to passes and crossings in that area but I think they made their escape to the west either by going north of the basin or across the Lower Montana south of the basin. Then they headed north off the map to the west side of the mountain range that forms rdr2 map's west edge before circumstances forced them to the start of RDR2 in the NW of the map.. My second thought it they would have gone south and west to flee through New Austin to cross the Lower Montana and get out of state before then heading northwest past MacFarlane ranch into the mountains west of the Aurora Basin, but John says he's never been to New Austin, so probably not even though I could hear arguments for not wanting to say "oh yeah I went through New Austin before, but I was on the run from the Law so I can't talk about it.". It would be easier to just deny all knowledge.

 

And even if they did go past Hanging Dog Ranch to get to Colter I suspect they went North West up the Little Creek River off the map to go in a clockwise circular motion to get to Colter via the nw Corner instead of meandering up through Ewing Basin. Since Colm O'Driscoll and his lot that that area locked down. Again, the start of RDR2 has them moving se into Colter from the NW.

North, west, North West, North North West, south, east, south east, really east....the most confusing post I've read in a while.

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UnexpectedParole
5 hours ago, GinsengElixir said:

North, west, North West, North North West, south, east, south east, really east....the most confusing post I've read in a while.

Aye, any abilty with a map editor sure would have helped eh?. :)

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Smokewood
On 3/25/2019 at 10:28 AM, UnexpectedParole said:

 

So I went back in this play through to check my theories and now I'm a little stumped.

I finally got the mission to get the Pipe for Dutch, and in the conversation Dutch says that it was lost during the Blackwater escape. The results of the campfire story with Lenny is he lost his watch during the escape as well. Both are found at Vettter's Echo which is just south of the Hanging Dog Ranch.

The pipe and watch you recover for them are NOT the ones they lost - they are simply replacements. 

Any watch will work for Lenny, btw....

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UnexpectedParole
33 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

The pipe and watch you recover for them are NOT the ones they lost - they are simply replacements. 

Any watch will work for Lenny, btw....

That makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out. I knew Lenny would accept any Silver watch. And that Granger's harmonica wasn't Sadie's, but for some reason my brain was registering that pipe as "Dutch's pipe". Given that Lenny's and Dutch's items were both lost at the same time and these are found at the same time my brain went and made the additional leap. 

 

Good. This reduces some of the stain on trying to sort out how the gang got to the extreme NW of the map while avoiding things like Hanging Dog Ranch and Ewing Basin.

cheers

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UnexpectedParole

Well , I had been hoping some-one else interested would chime in so I could avoid a double post or edit.

 

But I do recognize this is a niche discussion that might have already played itself out.

Be that as it may, in the mapping thread near the end Posted Monday at 08:22 PM:

@DuPzOr has posted a very well thought out route as to how the gang 's getaway might have happened.

I like it a lot, and think it has serious merit, but there are a few points I'd love to hear their or any-one else's opinions on.

 

1. The first query I have is in relation to Jenny's grave. If this route proves true, how likely do we think Jenny's grave is in a spot that makes sense?  -Or do we think we have to disregard Jenny's grave as a bum location due to R* having to relocate it to an in bounds location , and maybe they did not put too much thought into it? 

 

I've run the opening missions a few times this past weekend and opened the map. When Swanson talks to Dutch about Davey, and Arthur meets the group and tells them about Colter, we are at the opening points shown in this map. North off the playable map. So that jives.

What doesn't jive for me, is Jenny's grave would then be on the path between Arthur meeting back and getting to Colter. Why would the tired, cold, hungry, and wounded group stop to bury Jenny along the way to Colter if they had already carried her that far in the escape? Especially with the near death Davey onboard. And since there is no issue with burying in town, why didn't they just cart her with and bury her and Davey side by side?

 

 

2. John's route and the rescue mission with Javier.  I don't recall if I mapped the location of John's horse but I know I mapped the mission with Javier. The campfire they found was at the little "lake-like" source area on that upper fork and near the top of the playable map. They followed those horse prints to John's dead horse right?  That's starting on the east side of the source, and moving southwest. Then we follow the voice all over creation until we find John.  If John split off from the group as this theory suggests and moves eastward into the unknown to reach his final spot on the ledge, then how did Javier and Arthur find him / track him from the NE?

- my take. I think instead it might be more likely that John and Micah were sent out after Arthur came back and started to lead them to Colter. During the conversation with Swanson, Dutch tells him he had sent Arthur ahead. He didn't say "I've sent Arthur and Micah and John ahead".  I think that split came after they decision to camp in Colter. Maybe John was tasked with burying Jenny and then went on northwestward to explore back the way they came? (I don't like this idea, it just right now solves the issues hanging out there.)

-Also, we know the Dutch dialog telling Arthur Micah and John went downhill is junk -they both went uphill-, so maybe that timing is off too?

 

 

3. This escape route runs them right through Ewing Basin. Where they did not meet or see or hear about Colm and teh O'Driscolls who have been in the area a long time. How do we explain that?

 

Thoughts on these developments anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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