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Cutter De Blanc

Take-Two's stock falls; Analysts predict Red Dead 2 will underperform

Recommended Posts

Deadman2112

If the lack luster of online content is so critical to the longevity of games in this day, then I would imagine R* must have known this.

 

So then why didn't they simply wait till they had more content to offer, before opening up online?

 

Just seams to me that some of this could have easily been avoided.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Like any good movie, I still enjoy dropping back to play an older R* title to this day. Of course, the story is well known, but it's still got some magic about those games. 

 

I can watch Terminator 2 once a year, I can play San An and such too. Timeless in a way. :)

Oh absolutely lol.

I brake out the oldies all the time...

 

Was playing Manhunt 1 and 2 last month, and the other day I played some Warriors.

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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Hellbendzor

I predict more 'free' games like Fortnite, Apex Legends will be the norm for the future...

 

It's saddening to see how those games psychologically trick (young) people into buying ingame currency… For instance the base prices in Apex Legends are just a tad bit higher than the cheapest ingame currency deal you can buy… (aka 1100 vs 1000).. So they're tricked into buying the 2000 bucks option, which gives you an nice 150 bucks extra, thus 2150... So now you can buy that neat weaponcamo, but you have 1050 bucks left, just 50 short of potentially buying another… See how it works?

 

Oh man... And my kids are hooked up on these games.. Gonna be tough future for parents the next couple of years...

 

🙂

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Journey_95

Wait I thought RDR2's sales were great? wtf happened. Or is this just about RDR Online which I don't care about anyway

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BoulderFaceplant

Ive always thought that Rockstar’s descent into the microtransaction gutter was especially shameful because of Dan Houser’s constant criticism of capitalist greed. He’s the ultimate hypocrite now. 

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Journey_95
4 hours ago, BoulderFaceplant said:

Ive always thought that Rockstar’s descent into the microtransaction gutter was especially shameful because of Dan Houser’s constant criticism of capitalist greed. He’s the ultimate hypocrite now. 

As long as they don't add them in the SP I couldn't care less. And considering the lack of content in RDR2 and how they have handled it, it seems the opposite to GTA V happened here. They focused more on the SP and half assed Online which is good 

Edited by Journey_95

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Jimbatron
7 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

Wait I thought RDR2's sales were great? wtf happened. Or is this just about RDR Online which I don't care about anyway

The sales of the game were indeed great. This likely has more to do with analysts having inflated expectations about how many micro transactions it would shift than anything.

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Journey_95
2 minutes ago, Jimbatron said:

The sales of the game were indeed great. This likely has more to do with analysts having inflated expectations about how many micro transactions it would shift than anything.

Yeah I think so too, RDR2 Online definitely isn't huge like GTA:O was and lots of players have dropped it already, although tbh they also handled it worse. Not that I care, the SP should be the priority 

Edited by Journey_95

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Jimbatron
1 minute ago, Journey_95 said:

Yeah I think so too, RDR2 Online definitely isn't huge like GTA:O was and lots of players have dropped it already, although tbh they also handled it worse. Not that I care, the SP should be the priority 

Looking at it dispassionately (as analysts should do) it seemed fairly obvious to me that it’s much easier to sell more new cars - how many different types of horses can you have? Before having even seen it you’d surely be safer to assume RDRO would generate fewer microtransactions than GTAO. As you say they probably haven’t done a very good job of it so far either from what people are saying.

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Journey_95
Just now, Jimbatron said:

Looking at it dispassionately (as analysts should do) it seemed fairly obvious to me that it’s much easier to sell more new cars - how many different types of horses can you have? Before having even seen it you’d surely be safer to assume RDRO would generate fewer microtransactions than GTAO. As you say they probably haven’t done a very good job of it so far either from what people are saying.

Yeah apparently there isn't enough content and overall the setting just isn't fitting for a GTA:O esque cash grab. They can't pull as much OTT stuff either. 

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jje1000
15 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

Yeah apparently there isn't enough content and overall the setting just isn't fitting for a GTA:O esque cash grab. They can't pull as much OTT stuff either. 

You know that if push comes to shove, that OTT stuff will be crammed in with some other explanation like Dragic (who is conveniently still alive). Another awful thing they can do is to pull more SP gang members into Online story and side missions, or even events like the Blackwater Heist. Which will basically dangling bait for fans of SP, and doing the characters and events no justice, IMO.

 

I think the bigger issue facing RDO is that there's a crowded 2019 lineup of both AAA and indie releases that provide more compelling systems and forms of gameplay. There's seriously a lot of good games coming out this year that will demand full-time player attention, which is bad for RDO.

 

Unless that patch on Feb. 26 fixes a majority of the bugs and balancing issues, and provides a raft of new content for players to tide them over to the final release, the prospects of RDO will continue to dim over this year.

 

Edited by jje1000

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IG_
On 2/14/2019 at 4:13 AM, Hellbendzor said:

I predict more 'free' games like Fortnite, Apex Legends will be the norm for the future...

 

It's saddening to see how those games psychologically trick (young) people into buying ingame currency… For instance the base prices in Apex Legends are just a tad bit higher than the cheapest ingame currency deal you can buy… (aka 1100 vs 1000).. So they're tricked into buying the 2000 bucks option, which gives you an nice 150 bucks extra, thus 2150... So now you can buy that neat weaponcamo, but you have 1050 bucks left, just 50 short of potentially buying another… See how it works?

 

Oh man... And my kids are hooked up on these games.. Gonna be tough future for parents the next couple of years...

 

🙂

There's no real tricking involved and this type of marketing is not new. Before in-game currency, you had pokemon cards, before pokemon cards you probably had something else but I wasn't born then so I wouldn't know.

 

It's not the first time in history companies are trying to suck money out of kids. Pokemon cards, candies, legos, toys, nerf guns, club penguin premium membership... products have been targeting kids for decades. And there's no tough future for parents ahead, it's the same story but a different product, a responsible and smart parent would know how to control their children. 8 year old billy might come asking his parents to buy him cosmetics for the latest and coolest F2P game, a smart parent will tell him to enjoy the game without the optional cosmetics.

 

Anyways, the industry is going to adapt the F2P model, at least for now, whether or not kids give them their money. There are other reasons why companies want to adopt the F2P model, kids have very little to do with it.

Edited by IG_

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Hellbendzor

Fair enough. Then why the 50 'bucks' with which you can't buy a single thing ingame? I think the mechanism is quite simple: Give the player (and not all are adults) a big incentive to buy another 'round' of cash...

 

To me it's simple. In this particular case, if you buy 20 dollar/euro worth of ingame currency, you should at least be able to buy two camos, instead of one camo with a huge incentive to buy new ingame currency to buy the next one.

OR, drop the prices of the apex packs (now 100 a piece) to 50... Otherwise it's just plain simple 'grab as much money of them as possible' greed...

 

And yes, the industry is massively adapting this very profiteable F2P model. But that doesn't mean that we as a customer must like it... Wanting to make a profit no problem at all, but when greed takes over it's a whole other deal. 

We all see what greed did and does in GTA-online... (Tweaking useful features of vehicules preventing players to make quicker money)...

 

There is however a big pro in all of this. With all these companies adapting this model and the customerbase with its (more or less) fixed amount of walletcash, they'll need to drop prices (or give free stuff) to keep their customers playing their game and not the competition's... 

It's already happening in Fortnite (as a countermeasure to EA's Apex Legends), as they're handing out the next Battle Pass 8 for free (after completing a few (extra) ingame challenges)… 

 

Still don't like this businessmodel. Being an older gamer, it's not my cup of tea. To me it feels like a big psychological scheme to get in your wallet... But hey, that's my opinion. I'm entitled to it... 🙂

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BoulderFaceplant

Any chance this will improve our odds of seeing more SP content? Maybe a gun pack or New Austin strangers?

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~INDIO~
8 minutes ago, BoulderFaceplant said:

Any chance this will improve our odds of seeing more SP content? Maybe a gun pack or New Austin strangers?

That'd be the day

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danosky

I truly hope R* and Take 2 don't continue walking the path of EA/Activision-Blizzard, where everything is live service and full of micro-transactions.

 

Also RDD2 sold a truckload of copies, just that it is never enough to satisfy investors, who want exponential growth even if it's unsustainable. They don't care about earnings, they care that they make more than last year.

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Jason
On 2/17/2019 at 11:43 AM, BoulderFaceplant said:

Any chance this will improve our odds of seeing more SP content? Maybe a gun pack or New Austin strangers?

Not really, Take-Two's stock falling isn't really anything to do with RDR2 in particular, stock prices across all publishers fell. Sony didn't sell as many PS4's as it expected over Christmas as well from what I hear, so it's more of an industry thing than anything to do with Take-Two or RDR2 specifically.

 

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-02-08-already-in-decline-game-stocks-tumble-again

 

No one really knows exactly why it's happening, it's not down to one thing in particular though.

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~INDIO~
1 hour ago, danosky said:

I truly hope R* and Take 2 don't continue walking the path of EA/Activision-Blizzard, where everything is live service and full of micro-transactions.

 

Also RDD2 sold a truckload of copies, just that it is never enough to satisfy investors, who want exponential growth even if it's unsustainable. They don't care about earnings, they care that they make more than last year.

Greedy sh*theads being greedy sh*theads

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Jimbatron
On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:18 AM, O.Z said:

I think the game has already overperformed tbh, I didn’t expect the first week of sales to be as good as they were. It’s a Wild West game after all. It’s not a GTA. 

 

I dont care about the financial situation of the Red Dead Online. 

I agree with the first sentence, and the second to a degree but would advise caution.

 

Here's the thing. Some of us as players may not care about online (for the record, I'd like it to be good, but I'm happy enough to buy the game for SP) - but the money men in companies are always looking for more.

 

It's very clear to me that R* and the Houser's still place a very high priority on SP and the story for their games. Otherwise we wouldn't have got RDR2 as-is. The problem is stakeholders, analysts and people high up in Take2 will want GTAO recurrent spending levels, and start questioning why it's not got the regular income stream like Fortnite etc. As daft as those suggestions are, it's the sort of pressure that forces political change in companies and stops them doing what they want. Look at it the other way, I bet the commercial success of GTA V and the bundled Online (why do they blag they are different titles btw - that's more horse5h1t than comes out of Morgan's steed bottom. It's the same 8100dy game, you can't buy one and not the other!) gave R* the licence to do exactly what they wanted with RDR2. Now they'll more likely get push back to get more out of the next games online iteration.

 

I think if we're all fans of R* games, we'd all be in a safer place for the future if their games are viewed as an all round success. 

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Hayden_

Hoping this encourages a PC release.

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Jimbatron
6 hours ago, Jason said:

Not really, Take-Two's stock falling isn't really anything to do with RDR2 in particular, stock prices across all publishers fell. Sony didn't sell as many PS4's as it expected over Christmas as well from what I hear, so it's more of an industry thing than anything to do with Take-Two or RDR2 specifically.

 

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-02-08-already-in-decline-game-stocks-tumble-again

 

No one really knows exactly why it's happening, it's not down to one thing in particular though.

It's worth noting as well we are seeing a global economic slow down. China in particular, is not growing as fast as in recent years. Having played GTAO by observation there was a huge explosion in the number of PC players who joined from that part of the world in the last two years. Not sure how popular consoles are in China though.

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N-F-C
On 2/12/2019 at 10:52 PM, Gray-Hand said:

 

 

I have spent $500 worth of shark cards playing GTAonline over the years, and don’t regret it.

Hmm okay, is this guy for real ? 

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Adamska_
On 2/16/2019 at 12:00 AM, BoulderFaceplant said:

Ive always thought that Rockstar’s descent into the microtransaction gutter was especially shameful because of Dan Houser’s constant criticism of capitalist greed. He’s the ultimate hypocrite now. 

 

Does he have complete say-so for the microtransaction or is it more of a Take-Two thing?

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Hmmm nice bike
On 2/15/2019 at 11:00 PM, BoulderFaceplant said:

Ive always thought that Rockstar’s descent into the microtransaction gutter was especially shameful because of Dan Houser’s constant criticism of capitalist greed. He’s the ultimate hypocrite now. 

To be fair, Dan Houser is only the writer of the stories, his brother might own Rockstar but I doubt he has much of any say in corporate/financial decisions, he's more on the creative side (and for the main games, I doubt he even came up with flying bikes and orbital cannons in GTA Online, for all we know he could think it's stupid as f*ck). Sam Houser and Strauss Zelnick the ones to go after for this.

 

inb4 RDR3 is a free-to-play mobile game

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ThroatSlasher2

The problem with Red Dead Online is that it's basically trying to copy the formula its cousin, GTAO, adopted, ergo, being the prostitute of gaming. GTA Online can afford to squash within itself all sorts of different game modes that span different genres of games because GTA doesn't really fit in one category specifically. GTA was always that, a mishmash of mechanics and features that are never truly great separately, but when you combine them all together, it makes for a very fun experience. Red Dead Online on the other hand, doesn't really seem to understand what its supposed to be. It should stand on its own as the definitive wild west experience around but instead it tries to copy the same bullsh*t that's popular at the moment, be it GTA or Fortnite or whatever.

 

What makes Red Dead Redemption 2 a masterpiece in my opinion is :

 

- The characters. The way they're written, with so many layers of depth, and how well they were performed by an unbelievable cast of actors makes this game absolutely memorable. Even characters whom we don't know too much about, like Mary-Beth for example, manage to make me care about them.

 

- The narrative. This story brings you to so many high highs, and other times, such low lows. It hands you on a plate a vast array of emotions you have to take in and it not only stands alone as one of the best stories in gaming, it also makes its older brother a much better experience as well.

 

- The world. The way you can interact with people in this game, how you can explore the lore this map and its inhabitants have to offer, and how it immerses you in all its f*cking beauty is marvelous.

 

But here's the thing, what are you left with when you take all three of those away? A mediocre experience to be honest. The controls are slow and sluggish, the gun play is poorly done and the cover system is almost nonexistent. The wanted and witness systems are complete jokes. I could go on and on.

 

What holds this goddamn game together and makes it a solid experience is exactly what I just listed. Why would anyone want to play a battle royale mode in a game where the gun play is so poorly executed. It ain't made for this sh*t.

 

RDO has a lots of potential but it seems Rockstar is trying to make it something it can never be. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

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Darealbandicoot
5 hours ago, Hmmm nice bike said:

To be fair, Dan Houser is only the writer of the stories, his brother might own Rockstar but I doubt he has much of any say in corporate/financial decisions, he's more on the creative side (and for the main games, I doubt he even came up with flying bikes and orbital cannons in GTA Online, for all we know he could think it's stupid as f*ck). Sam Houser and Strauss Zelnick the ones to go after for this.

 

inb4 RDR3 is a free-to-play mobile game

All of the higher ups are to blame. Dan, Sam, Imran, Scrooge Zelnick, all of them. They have a say on what does and what doesn't make it into the game. Take Two doesn't even know what Rockstar have in the works except that it will be a money spinner.

Think about it, Rockstar are Take Two's most profitable subsidiary and Dan and Sam are in a partnership with Zelnick and so forth, why would they risk straining that by bossing them around? Exactly. 

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Gray-Hand
2 hours ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

The problem with Red Dead Online is that it's basically trying to copy the formula its cousin, GTAO, adopted, ergo, being the prostitute of gaming. GTA Online can afford to squash within itself all sorts of different game modes that span different genres of games because GTA doesn't really fit in one category specifically. GTA was always that, a mishmash of mechanics and features that are never truly great separately, but when you combine them all together, it makes for a very fun experience. Red Dead Online on the other hand, doesn't really seem to understand what its supposed to be. It should stand on its own as the definitive wild west experience around but instead it tries to copy the same bullsh*t that's popular at the moment, be it GTA or Fortnite or whatever.

 

What makes Red Dead Redemption 2 a masterpiece in my opinion is :

 

- The characters. The way they're written, with so many layers of depth, and how well they were performed by an unbelievable cast of actors makes this game absolutely memorable. Even characters whom we don't know too much about, like Mary-Beth for example, manage to make me care about them.

 

- The narrative. This story brings you to so many high highs, and other times, such low lows. It hands you on a plate a vast array of emotions you have to take in and it not only stands alone as one of the best stories in gaming, it also makes its older brother a much better experience as well.

 

- The world. The way you can interact with people in this game, how you can explore the lore this map and its inhabitants have to offer, and how it immerses you in all its f*cking beauty is marvelous.

 

But here's the thing, what are you left with when you take all three of those away? A mediocre experience to be honest. The controls are slow and sluggish, the gun play is poorly done and the cover system is almost nonexistent. The wanted and witness systems are complete jokes. I could go on and on.

 

What holds this goddamn game together and makes it a solid experience is exactly what I just listed. Why would anyone want to play a battle royale mode in a game where the gun play is so poorly executed. It ain't made for this sh*t.

 

RDO has a lots of potential but it seems Rockstar is trying to make it something it can never be. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Exactly this.

 

RedDead online can’t work as a Wild West version of GTAonline because the materialistic motivation that drove GTAV and carried over to GTAonline were sn’t there.

 

Michael, Franklin and Trevor wanted to make money and live large.  GTAonline completely captures that experience.

 

Arthur wanted to live free with his adopted family.  A lot curious lifestyle meant nothing at all to him.  The pyrpisebif the story was to redeem Arthur.

 

For RDRoline to succeed it needs to carry on some sort of redemption story.  That isn’t hard to do.   I don’t know why they haven’t added new missions after 3 months.

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jje1000
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

The problem with Red Dead Online is that it's basically trying to copy the formula its cousin, GTAO, adopted, ergo, being the prostitute of gaming. GTA Online can afford to squash within itself all sorts of different game modes that span different genres of games because GTA doesn't really fit in one category specifically. GTA was always that, a mishmash of mechanics and features that are never truly great separately, but when you combine them all together, it makes for a very fun experience. Red Dead Online on the other hand, doesn't really seem to understand what its supposed to be. It should stand on its own as the definitive wild west experience around but instead it tries to copy the same bullsh*t that's popular at the moment, be it GTA or Fortnite or whatever.

 

What makes Red Dead Redemption 2 a masterpiece in my opinion is :

 

- The characters. The way they're written, with so many layers of depth, and how well they were performed by an unbelievable cast of actors makes this game absolutely memorable. Even characters whom we don't know too much about, like Mary-Beth for example, manage to make me care about them.

 

- The narrative. This story brings you to so many high highs, and other times, such low lows. It hands you on a plate a vast array of emotions you have to take in and it not only stands alone as one of the best stories in gaming, it also makes its older brother a much better experience as well.

 

- The world. The way you can interact with people in this game, how you can explore the lore this map and its inhabitants have to offer, and how it immerses you in all its f*cking beauty is marvelous.

 

But here's the thing, what are you left with when you take all three of those away? A mediocre experience to be honest. The controls are slow and sluggish, the gun play is poorly done and the cover system is almost nonexistent. The wanted and witness systems are complete jokes. I could go on and on.

 

What holds this goddamn game together and makes it a solid experience is exactly what I just listed. Why would anyone want to play a battle royale mode in a game where the gun play is so poorly executed. It ain't made for this sh*t.

 

RDO has a lots of potential but it seems Rockstar is trying to make it something it can never be. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I keep on saying this, and you've hit the nail head-on. RDO can't compete with other online games based on gameplay alone. There are simply many other games out there that do a better job of providing good gameplay mechanics than RDO, and it faces the danger of trying to copy them while being in a very saturated market- the thing is, monetized Online games nowadays have to compete for your time (for the grind), and not only are they competing with each other, they're also competing with other online streaming services like Netflix. RDO won't do as it is.

 

RDO needs to draw from SP's strengths- but rather than providing players with just more narrative, it needs to be a game that allows players to explore their own narratives, and basically be a Westworld simulator. Rather than forcing players into the role of an outlaw, and making them follow a story so bad that Mary-Beth would blush, why not provide players with the opportunity to pursue multiple roles (i.e. sheriff, outlaw, trader, hunter, gold miner), good and bad, passive and active? Why not allow your character to join a faction, like the sherif's office, the Los Lobos or the O'Driscolls? Why not have a world that breathes based on player actions, with an ever-evolving player-driven economy and an ever-changing map of gang territory?

 

Players should be given the mechanics to explore whatever character they want- and making them invested in a character is what will allow RDO to survive. It reminds me of an ancient MMO called Wurm Online (one of Notch's first games) that does some of this- it's an ugly, clunky game that has mostly fallen behind other contemporary sandboxes, but it still has a fairly active playerbase. Why? Because players have become invested in their characters and settlements, and have stuck by the game all these years.

 

Aiming to chase gamemode memes only means that you end up with a transient playerbase that will abandon your game for the next compelling experience, but making players emotionally invested in their character and progress will have them sticking by your side for years to come.

 

Edited by jje1000

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Dr.Rosenthal

Agreed, the #1 problem with Online games today is the lack of depth and customization - and by that I don’t mean whether we can buy a black or a brown saddle for our horse. I think going forward, video game developers have got to start at the other end and really think about what makes Online play enjoyable and expand upon those themes.

 

The past few years have seen a lot of ”We’ve focused all resources on making a perfect SP experience, but we want/need to cash in on Online consumers for years to come while we’re working on our next big SP title.” and that won’t ever create perfect Online experiences.

 

All the while the playerbase gets increasingly more different options to choose from, and becoming more selective and maybe less patient towards Online play that doesn’t fit their tastes.

 

It feels like we’re in the early stages of Online play still, and developers are still learning.. Anyway, I hope R* adopts the right lesson from this and that they don’t just think ”let’s do what Epic’s doing”.

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Jason

If you think the #1 problem with online games these days is the lack of depth and customisation you're playing the wrong online games I think. There's plenty of depth and customisation out there in online gaming IMO, that isn't the issue with online games today nor is it the issue with RDO. AAA multiplayer gaming has just become a cesspool of publishers chasing microtransaction money to the point that creativity has gone the way of the dodo. Everything is so formulaic.

 

ThroatSlasher hit the nail on the hit with what's really wrong with RDO when you boil it down to the basics. It's designed to be GTAO in the west and it just aint gonna work. PvP in Rockstar's open world games is horrendous due to the mechanics - I mean trying to be a serious PvP game with lock-on aiming is daft, it's like a football game where every pass and shot is 100% accurate. It defeats the point.

 

It's almost funny in a way, games like GTAO, RDO, Division, Destiny, Anthem etc are all trying to essentially make MMORPG experiences (without the MMO part) for the mainstream but they're taking all the wrong lessons from what made MMORPG's so wildly popular in the 2000's, and then to make matters worse most of them keep ignoring the lessons they learned they learned from them selves and each other.

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Dr.Rosenthal

@Jason So, which games should I play if I want that depth and customization? I want a western game that's not based on old, dated principles, which is what I had hoped that RDO would be (but feared it wouldn't be, at the same time - if that makes sense).

 

I've glansed at The Division 2, but I didn't play the first one so I don't know if it's for me. I just want a game with good gameplay, that's what I mean with depth and customization - I want to be able to create an online character and an online "story arc" that's mine - which is also why I really don't think that the Ability Cards in RDO is such a bad idea. It's a step in the right direction (albeit, in a very weird way) in that it allows us to tailor our characters to our respective playstyles. As you say, the auto-aim combined with the PvP environment defeats the point, but at least the ability cards serve to change things up a little and allow for more strategy.

 

I don't know. Maybe you're right and I am playing the wrong games. But a lot of online-only games or games that have been made from a purely online perspective tend to be match-based, PvP-heavy and competitive. I like PvP, but I'd want more depth to it rather than "Join Showdown series" and do a few matches.

 

Business battles in GTAO, Stranger missions in RDO, and random events (security vans spawning in, or horse wagons carrying gold etc), medium-risk sell missions (Import/Export) are all steps in the right direction, but our progress there should open up for more gameplay, so that it's not just doing the same thing over and over.

 

Maybe I should have said that it's the #1 problem with R*'s online games in these days. Anyway. I'm just sad that such a promising world as RDO is reduced to deathmatches and bling-bling bought by MTX and that's it. 😒 But there are still updates to come so hopefully it will change for the better - although nothing much on either GTAO or RDO makes me think it will.

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