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ShayD

Did RDR2 change your opinion on the old gang from RDR1 ?

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ShayD

Does anyone feel any differently about Bill, Javier or Dutch in RDR1 after really getting to know them as friends and spend time with them as Arthur?

 

When we meet the 3 of them as Arthur did you see them as the same people we were hunting many years later as John?

Did it influence your attitude towards them in game, or did you find them to be good friends of Arthurs?

Edited by ShayD

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Marcinguy

I like Bill a whole lot better now as compared to RDR1. Dutch and Javier exposed themselves as major douchebags towards Arthur. Other than the fishing though, what else did we even do with Javier? Can't remember anything specific.  Nah, Javier was just  a punk ass.

 

Bill though is just a sweetheart. Even at the end I didn't get the feeling he really had anything against Arthur but was just too attached to taking orders from Dutch. He didn't know no better.

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Fluffy Sock

RDR1 made me think:

 

-The gang was much smaller and compact than it was. 

-Bill was more important to John than he actually was.

-The gang was a bunch of sobs who killed and robbed for the sake of it, pretty much like Bill's gang in NA.

 

 

Edited by Fluffy Sock

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HockeyMike24
8 minutes ago, Fluffy Sock said:

RDR1 makes you think:

 

-The gang was much smaller and compact than it was. 

-Bill was more important to John than he actually was.

-The gang was a bunch of sobs who killed and robbed for the sake of it, pretty much like Bill's gang in NA.

 

 

But throughout RDR1 John tells people that they were basically a Robin Hood gang until something happened to Dutch and he went crazy. They were never made out to be a gang of ruthless killers. Just a group of Outlaws that did good when they could until it fell apart.

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ShayD
2 minutes ago, Fluffy Sock said:

RDR1 makes you think:

 

-The gang was much smaller and compact than it was. 

-Bill was more important to John than he actually was.

-The gang was a bunch of sobs who killed and robbed for the sake of it, pretty much like Bill's gang in NA.

 

 

RDR1 would never prepare you for a gang of 20+ people, I always pictured maybe 6-7 at most. It really was a surprise to have such a large group but I enjoyed it.

 

28 minutes ago, Marcinguy said:

I like Bill a whole lot better now as compared to RDR1. Dutch and Javier exposed themselves as major douchebags towards Arthur. Other than the fishing though, what else did we even do with Javier? Can't remember anything specific.  Nah, Javier was just  a punk ass.

 

Bill though is just a sweetheart. Even at the end I didn't get the feeling he really had anything against Arthur but was just too attached to taking orders from Dutch. He didn't know no better.

Both posts are right about Bill. His first conversation with John made it seem like they were best friends in the past, but in the end his loyalty was his downfall.

It would be interesting to get a story about how he left Dutch after everything that happened. Did dutch tell Bill and Javier it was time to split up, or did they abandon him? It's possible they were still working with him when we meet Dutch and Micah on mt. Hagen

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Fluffy Sock
10 minutes ago, HockeyMike24 said:

But throughout RDR1 John tells people that they were basically a Robin Hood gang until something happened to Dutch and he went crazy. They were never made out to be a gang of ruthless killers. Just a group of Outlaws that did good when they could until it fell apart.

Thing is you're not supposed to take that literally, IMO. I pictured the gang much worse than what we get to see in RDR2. 

 

P. S. Edited my original post a little to avoid confussion.

Edited by Fluffy Sock

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ShayD
Just now, Fluffy Sock said:

Thing is you're not supposed to take that literally, IMO. I pictured the gang much worse than what we get to see in RDR2. 

John talks about the ferry raid in RDR1 and claims thats when Dutch went crazy, shooting a girl in the head, but since we never see that in game we dont really see Dutch losing it from our POV until Chapter 3/4. Meaning the gang could have been even more passive before the Blackwater job. maybe they were mostly running scams and lending out money under Hosea and Strauss and not actually doing anything violent.

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Marcinguy
35 minutes ago, ShayD said:

John talks about the ferry raid in RDR1 and claims thats when Dutch went crazy, shooting a girl in the head, but since we never see that in game we dont really see Dutch losing it from our POV until Chapter 3/4. Meaning the gang could have been even more passive before the Blackwater job. maybe they were mostly running scams and lending out money under Hosea and Strauss and not actually doing anything violent.

 

I agree that it kind of seems as though before Blackwater they really only had troubles with other gangs like the O'Driscolls while hanging out in the more lawless west. The story in the game has them on the run pushing further into "civilized" territory in the east. I wouldn't mind some DLC to flesh things out, or maybe another Prequel in RDR3? A prequel to the prequel, LOL.

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Jimbatron

I think both Bill and Javier were fleshed out really well.

 

Bill is described as and angry idiot by Abigail in the first game, which is true, but they do a very nice play on him feeling vulnerable about it, pointing out to Arthur when ever he does something wrong he’s blamed for being an idiot, but when things mess up for Morgan it’s percieved as bad luck. They also make you warm to him a bit when he’s quick to offer to help rescue Jack at the end of Chapter 3 and later tells  Micah to shut up when baiting Arthur.

 

This plays nicely into why he continues to support Dutch - loyalty is probably his best, and most limiting feature (in the latter case when it is blind and misplaced).

 

Javier I think comes across remarkably well early on in the story - notably rescuing John and Sean with Arthur he is portrayed as calm and highly competent, as in the optional home robbery and fishing trip you can do with him. Whilst not ignoring it completely, he also does a good job of keeping his tempers in check on a couple of occasions when subjected to obvious racism. It’s only in Chapter 6 he declares himself very firmly in Dutch’s camp, but earlier on the reason is hinted at. He very much admired Dutch’s philosophy of rebelling against government authority. Perhaps understandably given we see in the first game the tyranny that is rampant in his home country.

 

I would actually really like to see a DLC playing as Javier picking up where chapter vi leaves off. It would be a way to fully complete the gangs story. Why these two eventually split from Dutch, perhaps Javier sees Bill set up in Fort Mercer, before it being the perfect way to add Mexico to the map and him head down there the complete the story arc. Also the actor played Oscar in GTA V so he’s clearly liked by R*. Here’s to hoping!

Edited by Jimbatron

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HeyThereFriend

I feel very differently towards a lot of the characters.

 

I like Dutch a lot more now than I did. I mean he really pissed me off in Chapter 6 but this game added so much more to his character.

 

Javier was such a cool dude which is why he pissed me off so much being blindly loyal. Even knowing the events on RDR1 I had hoped he didn't side with Dutch.

 

Bill, I'd say I like the same. I was under the impression he was more important to the gang than he actually was though.

 

I also like Abigail way way better than I did in RDR1. Partly because the voice actress and partly because how they wrote her character. In the first game I cared for Bonnie way more than Abigail.

 

I also have a new appreciation for Jack. Hated playing as him before but knowing what he's through and the life he lived and the people that did their best to give him a good life. I don't find Jack so annoying anymore.

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Cutter De Blanc

Bill is a total bro, one of my sleeper favorite characters 

 

Javier might as well be a completely different character in the first game

 

Other than that I thought the gang were gonna be alot more "wild west outlaws" than "traveling gypsy caravan" but I'm not disappointed by it 

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Oldsport

i was under the impression the gang would be alot tougher than they actually were portrayed in rdr2.

 

i thought dutch would be alot smarter but hes just a charismatic dumb f*ck. in rdr1, he still seems like a man of his word but i dont like how he is in rdr2

 

bill and javier are cool. bill is exactly how id expected him to be. javier on the other hand should have been a sneaky and charming gunslinger who  scams people, thats the vibes i got from him in the first game.

 

overall, i just wish the gang was more wild, ruthless and badass. 

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JavierC

In RDR1 I perceived the gang dirtier and smaller, killing and robbing for the sake of it but giving away money to the poor when a big hit was made. Dutch more of a ruthless father teaching lessons than a motivational speaker. Bill being villianous-dumb not dumb-dumb.

 

Javier being more of a weasel, now that I think of it Trelawny was pointless they should have give Javier that part in the gang.

Edited by JavierC
Javier.

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ShayD
13 hours ago, HeyThereFriend said:

I feel very differently towards a lot of the characters.

 

I like Dutch a lot more now than I did. I mean he really pissed me off in Chapter 6 but this game added so much more to his character.

 

Javier was such a cool dude which is why he pissed me off so much being blindly loyal. Even knowing the events on RDR1 I had hoped he didn't side with Dutch.

 

Bill, I'd say I like the same. I was under the impression he was more important to the gang than he actually was though.

 

I also like Abigail way way better than I did in RDR1. Partly because the voice actress and partly because how they wrote her character. In the first game I cared for Bonnie way more than Abigail.

 

I also have a new appreciation for Jack. Hated playing as him before but knowing what he's through and the life he lived and the people that did their best to give him a good life. I don't find Jack so annoying anymore.

This probably describes it best. I think most people would have a new appreciation for the characters after learning more about them, especially dutch. 

 

The ending still had me hoping Bill and Javier wouldn't side with Dutch, but I guess that was set in stone. A DLC or even the next game where we alternate between Javier and Bill after the RDR2 ending would be great, we could see how things went after the main gang split and maybe how they formed their own gangs.

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RyuNova

RDR2 moved Javier away from an almost racist stereotype of a Mexican to someone that's actually resourceful.

I mean come on, the "I am a potential rapist" facial hair, a Poncho and a Sombrero on a Mexican character? They even toned down his stereotypical Mexican accent.

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ShayD
50 minutes ago, RyuNova said:

RDR2 moved Javier away from an almost racist stereotype of a Mexican to someone that's actually resourceful.

I mean come on, the "I am a potential rapist" facial hair, a Poncho and a Sombrero on a Mexican character? They even toned down his stereotypical Mexican accent.

Im guessing that the mexican outfit was because he was there at the time, coul've been trying to blend in with the other banditos but I do agree, he couldn't have looked any more like a stereotypical Mexican bad guy.

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RyuNova
13 minutes ago, ShayD said:

Im guessing that the mexican outfit was because he was there at the time, coul've been trying to blend in with the other banditos but I do agree, he couldn't have looked any more like a stereotypical Mexican bad guy.

 

You can make someone look like local thug without making them look like a stereotype.

They might as well have just called him Javier "Speedy" Gonzales and been done with it.

Edited by RyuNova

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~INDIO~

I liked John even more after RDR2

 

Dutch is a whiney SJW that has a bigger mouth than a brain

 

Uncle is hilarious

 

Abigail is even more annoying than before

 

Javier is pointless aside from campfire songs

 

Little Jack is awesome

 

Bill is Bill

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Oldsport
8 hours ago, RyuNova said:

 


They might as well have just called him Javier "Speedy" Gonzales and been done with it.

lmao because javier in rdr1 really reminds me of speedy gonzales, i was gonna say that

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TheSantader25

-I hate Abigail more than before. 

 

-I feel the same towards John but he now is lamer to me and not a complete a badass. 

 

-In RDR1 I felt Dutch was a lot smarter(He actually was kinda smart in RDR1) but in RDR2 I saw that he is even more stupid than Bill and only has a tongue. 

 

-I liked Bill and Javier a lot more in RDR2. 

 

-I felt we were gonna see the gang help more people out and give money to the poor like the Dialogue indicated in RDR1 but the only person we helped was Sadie Adler. So the gang actually feels a lot like a savage one instead of a "Robin Hood" esqe one I pictured in RDR1. 

 

-Jack is the same dweeb and I hate him for that. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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O.Z
On 2/12/2019 at 7:57 PM, Cutter De Blanc said:

Other than that I thought the gang were gonna be alot more "wild west outlaws" than "traveling gypsy caravan" but I'm not disappointed by it 

lol, so true. A letdown tbh

 

13 hours ago, ~INDIO~ said:

I liked John even more after RDR2

 

Dutch is a whiney SJW that has a bigger mouth than a brain

 

Uncle is hilarious

 

Abigail is even more annoying than before

 

Javier is pointless aside from campfire songs

 

Little Jack is awesome

 

Bill is Bill

Javier and Bill are both absolutely useless and pointless to the gang, they do f**k all. In fact most of the time I didn’t even notice they were there...

Edited by O.Z

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RJX74

Bill --> I thought that man was deplorable in RDR1. He's so lovable in RDR2

Javier --> Nothing really happened with him.

Dutch--> Care more about him

Uncle--> Lumbago

Abigail-->Still love her

Jack--> Nothing really.

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coach_wargo
15 hours ago, O.Z said:

Javier and Bill are both absolutely useless and pointless to the gang, they do f**k all. In fact most of the time I didn’t even notice they were there...

Isn't it Bill who masterminds the bank robbery in Valentine? That's the biggest success that the gang has the whole game. 

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RyuNova
On 2/14/2019 at 1:51 AM, Oldsport said:

lmao because javier in rdr1 really reminds me of speedy gonzales, i was gonna say that

 

That's why I said he is almost a racist stereotype in RDR1. 

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