éX-Driver 1,099 Posted Monday at 05:40 AM (edited) The more I think about it, the more it seems like John’s death and Jack’s downfall is Abigail’s fault. She’s the one that pushes John to stop bounty hunting, she’s the one who pushes him to stop doing the only things he’s good at even when it’s legal, and she’s the one that pushes both of them into ranching despite the fact neither of them are interested in the idea. Jack blatantly states he dislikes it, and John clearly has issues trying to think up excuses as to why ranching is good when discussing it with Jack. Had John instead found legal work that suited his skills, they’d probably not have had happen what happened during Redemption 1’s story. John could’ve gone into the Wild West Show arena, and it would’ve suited him perfectly. Bronco busting, bullriding, firearm trick shots, staged outlaw shootouts, staged cowboy & indian shootouts. The Marston family would’ve travelled the world and stayed out of reach of the Pinkertons and later FBI, Jack would’ve never fell to gunslinging. Barring that, John could’ve become a big game hunter. HUGE money in that time period around bison hunting, also big money in clearing out cougars and wolves in farming areas. Again, things John would’ve been brilliant at doing and would’ve made it much harder for the law to track the Marstons down. Especially if they had stayed in Canada. And finally, the most obvious choice: bounty hunting. In that time period, the number 1 way an outlaw could avoid the gallows was by going clean and working with the law in taking down other wanted men. In many places, you could outright clear your own bounty by bringing other bounties in. A good bounty hunter was worth his weight in gold, and if John had proven himself a good bounty hunter between 1907 and 1911, The BOI/FBI would’ve seen John as far too useful to kill after getting him to track down Dutch/Javier/Bill. They may not have even needed to kidnap Jack and Abigail to get him to work for them. Simply paid him a good sum of money. But no. Abigail wanted to raise her horseys and pet her sheep and plant her pretty flowers. And she was willing to guilt John into doing what she wanted. She got her son and husband killed because of her selfish desires. f*ck Abigail. Edited Monday at 05:42 AM by éX-Driver Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deadman2112 980 Posted Monday at 06:29 AM (edited) Ummm... The death of John was set in motion by being associated with the gang and the crimes they committed. It had nothing to do with her or the choices they made and would have happened regardless, because the agency was never going to let them go no matter how much redemption happened... Maybe I'm overlooking something but I don't see how him finding legit work makes her the one to blame. Doesn't really make sense. If anything is to blame it's John's naive idealism and foolish belief in the idea of... "Well. If I just do what they want, then I'll be left alone to live out some happily ever after". John should have known better. ...but I digress. Edited Monday at 10:34 AM by Deadman2112 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
O.Z 1,911 Posted Monday at 06:33 AM You live like an outlaw, you die like an outlaw. Nothing wrong with that. We all make our own choices, you can’t blame a woman for that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gray-Hand 646 Posted Monday at 06:47 AM 1 hour ago, éX-Driver said: ... And finally, the most obvious choice: bounty hunting. In that time period, the number 1 way an outlaw could avoid the gallows was by going clean and working with the law in taking down other wanted men. In many places, you could outright clear your own bounty by bringing other bounties in. A good bounty hunter was worth his weight in gold, and if John had proven himself a good bounty hunter between 1907 and 1911, The BOI/FBI would’ve seen John as far too useful to kill after getting him to track down Dutch/Javier/Bill. They may not have even needed to kidnap Jack and Abigail to get him to work for them. Simply paid him a good sum of money. ... But the Bureau did see that John was a good bounty hunter after he brought down Bill, Javier and Dutch. And they killed him anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PapasHota 319 Posted Monday at 06:49 AM What choice did he have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbatron 8,111 Posted Monday at 07:16 AM There was an inevitability about all of it. Dutch's gang were all wanted men and there was a crusade to root them out. It's typified by the fact that when Milton is gone, Ross picks up the baton. Someone else would have always carried it on. They were clearly going to track John down one way or another. The story in RDR 1 might have been a bit different though. Because John's bought his own ranch, and with a mortgage etc, is inside the system, and a man who looks like he has something to lose, and can therefore be manipulated. It's probably why Ross decides that it's viable to send him after the remaining members as they've got more leverage. Otherwise, they may have just arrested John or shot him, especially if he hadn't got back together with Abigail. The only viable thing they could have done to escape it was to do what Sadie and Charles did - flee the country altogether. But its interesting at the start of Epilogue part I they mention they've moved away before and it didn't work out - probably an attempt to explain why they didn't go for this option post "American Venom". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeyThereFriend 34 Posted Monday at 08:08 AM I disagree for two reasons. 1. They're only way out was go far away and never come back but they did. 2. Ross was an evil obsessed scumbag that wouldn't let it end any other way. He desired that trophy of taking out Dutch's Boys so much, he would never see reason and allow John to live and continue to do government work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac- 154 Posted Monday at 10:14 AM You can't blame Abigail for John's lack off brain cells OP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Equatecurl 2,474 Posted Monday at 10:57 AM Dont blame my video game crush Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac- 154 Posted Monday at 11:28 AM 28 minutes ago, Equatecurl said: Dont blame my video game crush Hmm I could of had alot more Mary missions, that woman play's me like a fiddle, and I love it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
O.Z 1,911 Posted Monday at 11:47 AM 18 minutes ago, Mac- said: Hmm I could of had alot more Mary missions, that woman play's me like a fiddle, and I love it. Mary Linton is easily the best looking woman in the game Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happygrowls 9,517 Posted Monday at 11:47 AM Just now, O.Z said: Mary Linton is easily the best looking woman in the game Sadie would like a word with you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac- 154 Posted Monday at 11:49 AM 1 minute ago, happygrowls said: Sadie would like a word with you If that woman told me too do the dishes I'd do them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyuNova 5,103 Posted Monday at 01:40 PM 1 hour ago, happygrowls said: Sadie would like a word with you I think you mean Tilly... Dem doe eyes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kemasus 55 Posted Monday at 08:55 PM 9 hours ago, Equatecurl said: Dont blame my video game crush Now that, I agree with ! Abigail gets on my nerves at times but I find her very attractive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSantader25 3,835 Posted Tuesday at 06:07 AM Well this thread has clearly derailed... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cutter De Blanc 12,221 Posted Tuesday at 07:04 AM It's Micah's fault Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Equatecurl 2,474 Posted Tuesday at 08:12 AM Its dutches fault for not going west Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac- 154 Posted Tuesday at 08:13 AM 11 hours ago, Kemasus said: Now that, I agree with ! Abigail gets on my nerves at times but I find her very attractive. Yep there's definitely something kinky about her. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
O.Z 1,911 Posted Tuesday at 08:32 AM 19 minutes ago, Equatecurl said: Its dutches fault for not going west No, it’s actually Arthur’s fault for not stepping up and killing Micah before the gang started to fall apart... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mde2 974 Posted Tuesday at 08:40 AM On 2/11/2019 at 3:59 PM, Deadman2112 said: Ummm... The death of John was set in motion by being associated with the gang and the crimes they committed. It had nothing to do with her or the choices they made and would have happened regardless, because the agency was never going to let them go no matter how much redemption happened... Clearly if the Marstons didn't settle down the Pinkertons would not have, or at least have had far more difficulty pinpointing John given we literally see them a few steps behind in the post-credits scene when they're searching for him. The blame doesn't lie solely on Abigail, John should have known better than to settle down near West Elizabeth of all places but she was definitely a big reason why they ended up there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShayD 108 Posted Tuesday at 08:59 AM On 2/11/2019 at 5:40 AM, éX-Driver said: And finally, the most obvious choice: bounty hunting. In that time period, the number 1 way an outlaw could avoid the gallows was by going clean and working with the law in taking down other wanted men. This is exactly what Jim Milton did, of course his wife and son were used as leverage but you could argue if they just opted to pay him well to give him the ability to pay off his mortgage he would have also agreed, since his loyalty to the gang members Ross wanted died with Arthur. But even in this scenario Ross wouldnt have let him live, he was obsessed with chasing Dutchs sons for trophies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oldsport 376 Posted Tuesday at 10:10 AM 20 hours ago, RyuNova said: I think you mean Tilly... Dem doe eyes. glad someone appreciates tilly as much as i do. abigail does seem kinky tho, like she like hot wax being poured over her or something lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gummy 3,012 Posted Tuesday at 11:02 AM I guess this is RDR2's version of "It's Michael's fault!"/"It's Amanda's fault!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deadman2112 980 Posted Tuesday at 01:54 PM (edited) On 2/12/2019 at 2:40 AM, mde2 said: Clearly if the Marstons didn't settle down the Pinkertons would not have, or at least have had far more difficulty pinpointing John given we literally see them a few steps behind in the post-credits scene when they're searching for him. The blame doesn't lie solely on Abigail, John should have known better than to settle down near West Elizabeth of all places but she was definitely a big reason why they ended up there. To each their own if that's how you want to see it, but consider the following... If John goes it alone, then the agency simply uses his family against him and you now have RedDead Redemption 1, only with a slightly different plot twist and story. Basically, in this hypothetical scenario... John walked away from his family in an effort to keep them safe rather than trying to build a life for them. Regardless of the scenario that plays out, the sentiment is still the same, and also ends in the same outcome as the normal storyline... They first use John. Then they kill him. If they stay together as a family on the run, it raises the risk of harm to Jack. ...and wasn't that the point of getting them out in the first place? So, considering... ...Jack's safety ...the sacrifices ...and the promises made I don't think that was going to happen. I don't completely disagree with you on the location they picked out. That clearly was a pore choice being so close to Black Water. However, considering the fact that the agency was backed by a millionaire, I don't think location would have made that big of a difference. In a nutshell, staying on the run only means more crime, and after 60 hours of gameplay watching the members of the gang die, one by one due to the crimes they continue to commit, this leads to only one conclusion... The agency wasn't going to let them go no matter what deals they made. The results end the same IMO... Edited 12 hours ago by Deadman2112 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Equatecurl 2,474 Posted Tuesday at 10:34 PM 12 hours ago, Oldsport said: glad someone appreciates tilly as much as i do. abigail does seem kinky tho, like she like hot wax being poured over her or something lol Jesus Christ stop why does everything have to be about some nasty sh*t you need to lay off the pr0n Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3Prcntr 126 Posted Tuesday at 11:00 PM Normally I would agree, most things are the females fault, but someone already said it: You live like an outlaw, you die like one. /thread 25 minutes ago, Equatecurl said: you need to lay off the pr0n Not true. This is never true. Especially if your wife/gf enjoys it too. 14 hours ago, O.Z said: No, it’s actually Arthur’s fault for not stepping up and killing Micah before the gang started to fall apart... It's pretty much the whole gangs fault for trying to be a gang. Outlaw gangs are not the smartest groups, and that is why they try to stick together. Strength in numbers. But it never works. Especially when there are a bunch of people who never leave the camp and provide nothing but hotel like services. Greed and corruption, just like in government, exist in outlaw mentalities too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Equatecurl 2,474 Posted Tuesday at 11:19 PM 18 minutes ago, 3Prcntr said: Normally I would agree, most things are the females fault, but someone already said it: You live like an outlaw, you die like one. /thread Not true. This is never true. Especially if your wife/gf enjoys it too. Yeah sure I’ll take your word for it, you sound like a big player Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oldsport 376 Posted Wednesday at 12:25 AM 1 hour ago, Equatecurl said: Jesus Christ stop why does everything have to be about some nasty sh*t you need to lay off the pr0n shut up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
