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Typhus

Unpopular Opinions about RDR2

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RedDeadJohn

I think the game should start with Blackwater heist it was a missed oportunity to not include this into game they only saying about that and we don't saw it. The game would start the same like first RDR in Blackwater and on a boat.

I thought recently about setting the game more in the past somewhere in the 1877 how the gang formed and it would show more relationship between gang members.

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GinsengElixir

The reason we didn't see the Blackwater heist was because, as Arthur Morgan, we weren't supposed to. The events of it were heavily insinuated but were supposed to be mystery. If Arthur witnesses Dutch shoot Heidi McCourt in cold blood, his journey from Dutch fanboi to Dutch player hater would have been a lot shorter.

 

I can't think of a more perfect start to the story as it was. 

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GinsengElixir
On 2/9/2019 at 2:02 AM, jje1000 said:

These are more of my general opinions, not really unpopular opinions.

  1. The game could have benefited from more procedural gameplay systems. Some things (like encounters and the camp) feel too scripted, and you notice those limitations the more you play.
  2. The game is too cinematic for its own good, as missions almost always run along rails- this clashes with the open-world concept of RDRII and misses the opportunity to allow players to approach missions from different angles.
  3. RDRII's gameplay is really only an elaboration of existing Rockstar tropes, it has not been improved upon beyond looking more "realistic".
  4. These tropes combined with an emphasis on realism results in clunky gameplay controls (i.e. holding down a button to auto-gallop, the same button doing multiple things), and an overemphasis on Deadeye and headshots.
  5. The supposed realism that RDRII offers is more or less a cover for the game's otherwise simplistic and shallow gameplay mechanics. There are some details (horses balls) that contribute nothing to the gaming/immersive experience, and those resources could have been focused elsewhere.
  6. RDRII suffers from some balancing issues, especially with the economy and law enforcement that detract tremendously from the game's immersion.
  7. The game could have benefited from another half-year of polish. It feels like there are some concepts that were never truly fleshed out (i.e. the camp system, Beecher's Hope, New Austin), while others feel shallow (mission medals, camp upgrades). The plot could have also benefited from some post-recut cleanup, as there's issues with plot holes and lagging character development.
  8. There are too many characters in general, and many of them could have been merged together and developed more.
  9. The pacing of the game is not great, as many players want to stay in Chapters 2 & 3 once they know what happens towards the game's ending.
  10. Online mode has been detrimental to SP mode, as it's a reductionist form of gameplay that strips away the finer details of RDRII, likely sapped resources that could have been dedicated to SP, and harms prospects of SP DLC that could have addressed some of SP's issues.
  11. Rockstar is a neglectful parent who has not talked about its plans for SP at all (not even plans for bug fixes or post-release content), and has given us only sparing details on Online mode's fixes while still wanting players to pay up.
  12. RDRII was likely largely finished in 2-4 years, with the rest of the time being stuck in development hell. As a result, its development was very much rushed towards the end and it can sometimes feel like it suffers from "too-many-cooks" syndrome.
  13. Online mode likely will not be a success as TakeTwo would like, as there is a decent lineup of games in 2019 that offer better gameplay. Online's world also pales to SP's world, its player models are ugly, and its story is awful.
  14. RDRII is not a 10/10 masterpiece, I would place it closer to a 8.5-9 depending on how much you like visuals and storytelling compared to the gameplay. The sad thing is that it could easily become a 10/10 post-release if Rockstar focused on SP fixes, rather than Online mode.

 

Find it hard to disagree with anything here. But how do you know it was largely finished in 2-4yrs? The actors alone spent 5yrs working on it, for example. 

 

When I reflect on the 8yr dev cycle and then play the game, I do wonder how some things in the game feel so unpolished. I'm talking about gameplay here, because the world design is unparalleled imo. The 'realism' mechanics, such as gun cleaning and even eating feel superficial to the point of redundant. Sure, you need to do these things to a degree, but not to the degree that it really matters if you neglect it for days on end. Reminds me if FO4 survival mode whereby you were told how hungry you were every 5 minutes. If you're going to do it, take it as far as you can go, but not to the detriment of player patience.

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GinsengElixir
On 3/17/2019 at 12:30 PM, RyuNova said:

 

What part of Sadie saw her husband, the love of her life, murdered in front of her, was possibly raped and abused inside her own home, watched it burn down, is mentally unhinged, still loves Jake more than anything else and is suicidal dont you understand? Lets also not mention the fact that Arthur still loves Mary, the woman who broke heart and the last time before that his Son and the boys mother were murdered by a robber for ten dollars.

Also the fact that we already get "Arthur is torn about leaving the gang" with Mary.

Ha...good lord, well put. Sadie was most definitely raped by the O'Driscolls, same as Bonnie was probably raped by Bill Williamson gang in RDR. Sick but the most obvious and likely outcome. They wouldn't have kept her alive for any other reason. 

 

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RyuNova
Just now, GinsengElixir said:

Ha...good lord, well put. Sadie was most definitely raped by the O'Driscolls, same as Bonnie was probably raped by Bill Williamson gang in RDR. Sick but the most obvious and likely outcome. They wouldn't have kept her alive for any other reason. 

 

 

I think the implied by her blouse being torn, face bruised and undergarments showing was as far as they were willing to go with the depiction of rape with Bonnie. It was heavily implied and even John alluded to it but Bonnie brushed him off.

 

Sadie would have been no different, a lone woman trapped for days with a group of angry and drunk men, its pretty easy to know what R* was implying.

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GinsengElixir
Posted (edited)

Deeke even explicitly said that's what went down aswell. Course he could be bluffing but it's just obvious. Makes me hate the O'Driscolls even more(in RDR2 obviously, not rdr). However, it's also heavily implied that the Van der Linde girls were passed around(Abigail definitely, so no reason why Karen would be any different) although I can't imagine anyone but Micah and perhaps the Callender boys doing that. Although...Javier, Bill and even Charles were obviously whoring in Valentine. Not that Karen is a prostitute...but she also kinda was. 

 

Point being, R* imply the dark nature of these characters, beyond the obvious killing and robbing, without needing to spell it out.

Edited by GinsengElixir
Clarification

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jje1000
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, GinsengElixir said:

Find it hard to disagree with anything here. But how do you know it was largely finished in 2-4yrs? The actors alone spent 5yrs working on it, for example. 

 

When I reflect on the 8yr dev cycle and then play the game, I do wonder how some things in the game feel so unpolished. I'm talking about gameplay here, because the world design is unparalleled imo. The 'realism' mechanics, such as gun cleaning and even eating feel superficial to the point of redundant. Sure, you need to do these things to a degree, but not to the degree that it really matters if you neglect it for days on end. Reminds me if FO4 survival mode whereby you were told how hungry you were every 5 minutes. If you're going to do it, take it as far as you can go, but not to the detriment of player patience.

8 years was the total dev time, but pulling from other instances of games with such a long dev period as well as various rumors over the years detailing RDR2's development hell, it wouldn't be unlikely that the game has had its starts and stops, and periods of stall during those 8 years. I see it as a exponential curve, with a small amount of ongoing preliminary work in the early years, ramping up to full studio dedication towards the end.

 

On top of that, different components likely would have been worked on for various sums of time- I'm roughly guessing 5 years to fully mo-cap and record the lines, as the story was gradually written and blocked out in segments, probably the same amount of time to create the world and upgrade the engine, and perhaps around 3-4 years to build up the rest of the game, with some mechanical components left unfinished/ unresolved until the end (resulting in that infamous pre-release crunch time) and some outstanding plot issues due to the last minute recut that happened.

 

Online itself was likely only developed in a year (like Anthem), given how rough it was (and still is) when released for public consumption. All in all, I wonder how well-managed and sustainable this is for Rockstar, as RDO seems to be in trouble like GTAO was, and Rockstar's own output has dropped dramatically since GTAV. I do wish that they'd return to a looser studio system that allows for a greater output of smaller unique titles, rather than them dumping their collective manpower into increasingly risky and lengthy blockbusters.

 

Edited by jje1000

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crazedZ10

This entire game is the epitome of Great idea, Bad execution 

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GinsengElixir
7 hours ago, crazedZ10 said:

This entire game is the epitome of Great idea, Bad execution 

Maybe go into some detail as to why you think that? 

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crazedZ10
4 hours ago, GinsengElixir said:

Maybe go into some detail as to why you think that? 

Aight, let's start with Sadie since we met her first. I like the idea of a widow becoming unhinged because of her obsession with revenge. But sh*t was that handled so poorly. She goes from 0 to Gunslinger with nothing in between. And the whole point of the game was that revenge is useless but she walks away scott free

 

The warring plantation families, again I love the idea, but that was handled very badly 

 

Arthur's entire character arc. They should of cut the entire honour system until the end tbh. It's not like it effects the gameplay. He keeps saying he's a bad man but if you play with high honour in the early chapters that line holds no weight. He also then starts acting completely out of character (if your high honour) during some of the early missions (the debts, how he talks to Keiran, etc.)

 

Gaurma

 

I could go on all day

 

 

 

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GinsengElixir
24 minutes ago, crazedZ10 said:

Aight, let's start with Sadie since we met her first. I like the idea of a widow becoming unhinged because of her obsession with revenge. But sh*t was that handled so poorly. She goes from 0 to Gunslinger with nothing in between. And the whole point of the game was that revenge is useless but she walks away scott free

 

The warring plantation families, again I love the idea, but that was handled very badly 

 

Arthur's entire character arc. They should of cut the entire honour system until the end tbh. It's not like it effects the gameplay. He keeps saying he's a bad man but if you play with high honour in the early chapters that line holds no weight. He also then starts acting completely out of character (if your high honour) during some of the early missions (the debts, how he talks to Keiran, etc.)

 

Gaurma

 

I could go on all day

 

 

 

Sadie I agree was sh*t. I liked her wanting revenge, no issue with her gunslinging, but I don't recall her ever being in any danger or progressing to competency(correct me if I'm wrong). I would have preferred if she went to Hanging dog ranch and almost got herself killed before we stepped in(or did get killed). Strong, independent woman be damned. She has a similar level of competency to other gang members. She should have had to earn that.

 

Guarma was awful for me, I don't care enough about the meta narrative and themes surrounding the dev choice here. The trade off wasn't enough. If the gang went to New Austin instead that would've been amazing.

 

Honor system could have been scrapped. Then again, I always played a balance. I rarely saw a reason to not help someone in need. This was countered by acts of downright slaughter. I managed to create a coherent narrative by myself and it worked quite well. I never killed randomly though, only when I had a gun pulled on me.

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volta2001

I’m on a max honor playthrough. finding it a great, new experience 

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Tha-Jamz
On 2/9/2019 at 4:37 AM, Cutter De Blanc said:

I hope that their online mode becomes an utter failure

Amen ! my brother still can't play RDO cause of the disconnects every 10-15 minutes.

No private sessions.

R* broke the SP with all the patches.

 

They wont get a cent form me and many others i know after all the lies and crippling the SP.

Not ever again !

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LeonVegaSuarez

Ive probably said something similar already on here, but they could've left out the whole Bayou area (except Saint Denis, I enjoy it there) and added Mexico or more desert regions and I would've enjoyed the map even more.

 

OR JUST MAKE NEW AUSTIN ACCESSIBLE FOR ARTHUR AND ONLY BLACKWATER A DEAD OR ALIVE ZONE

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Ironside
2 hours ago, LeonVegaSuarez said:

Ive probably said something similar already on here, but they could've left out the whole Bayou area (except Saint Denis, I enjoy it there) and added Mexico or more desert regions and I would've enjoyed the map even more.

 

OR JUST MAKE NEW AUSTIN ACCESSIBLE FOR ARTHUR AND ONLY BLACKWATER A DEAD OR ALIVE ZONE

I like the bayou area but in principle I agree with you. And even if all areas would still be as they already are, why not let us go to NA and even Blackwater as Arthur after we finished the game. I mean let us choose if we want to play as Arthur just for the fun of it as I way prefer how Arthur walk, talks and plays as opposed to John. So I think we should be able to choose if we want to play as Arthur or John after we complete the epilogues. 

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GTAFanClub

I absolutely love the controls and movement. 

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El Penguin Bobo
On 10/29/2019 at 6:35 PM, GTAFanClub said:

I absolutely love the controls and movement. 

I don't get why people keep saying it's sluggish. Same for the horse controls. Maybe during combat, it feels a bit iffy, but other than that, you get used to it and it's responsive.

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Tha-Jamz

Is it just me or are there more players noticing rotten carcasses dropping from the sky everywhere sinds the updates ?

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ThroatSlasher2

I think the map layout leaves a lot to be desired. RDR1's was better.

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Corndawg93

I had no problem with the "sluggish" controls

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JC_HUMBLE

I wouldn't be mad if the game had more slower animations 

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BoulderFaceplant

Much has been made about John bringing about his own undoing. How it spits on Arthur’s grave, how it makes John look like an idiot, how it makes the government look less like an unavoidable force (as portrayed in RDR1) and more like something that needs a super-obvious tip-off before it can act. 

 

But this brings another problematic point in the mix: the Blackwater money. In RDR1, our understanding is that John and Abigail were living an honest life when the government stepped in and ruined it. Maybe they’d gotten their start using stolen money, but at this point they were living via moral means (remember, towards the end of the game, Uncle points out that they need new livestock to make a living). RDR2 reframes all of this by asserting that Marston selfishly takes home enough blood money to make him practically a millionaire. John and Abigail conclude their RDR2 story not as earnest ranchers on the prairie, but as criminal profiteers living a lie. 

 

Ironically, I finished RDR2 feeling much more sympathy for Agent Ross, and I very much doubt this was the writers’ intention. Now when I look at John, I’m not thinking, “Leave this poor man alone,” so much as “Yeah, he made off with a fortune in stolen money taken at the expense of countless good people. Screw this guy.” Not that it’s necessarily right to kidnap someone’s family, make him do your bidding, and then murder him, but it certainly makes me feel a lot less sympathy for that man and his family. 

 

Giving the player $20,000 dollars wasn’t just bad for gameplay reasons, it was devastating for the story. 

Edited by BoulderFaceplant

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ThroatSlasher2
18 minutes ago, BoulderFaceplant said:

Much has been made about John bringing about his own undoing. How it spits on Arthur’s grave, how it makes John look like an idiot, how it makes the government look less like an unavoidable force (as portrayed in RDR1) and more like something that needs a super-obvious tip-off before it can act. 

 

But this brings another problematic point in the mix: the Blackwater money. In RDR1, our understanding is that John and Abigail were living an honest life when the government stepped in and ruined it. Maybe they’d gotten their start using stolen money, but at this point they were living via moral means (remember, towards the end of the game, Uncle points out that they need new livestock to make a living). RDR2 reframes all of this by asserting that Marston selfishly takes home enough blood money to make him practically a millionaire. John and Abigail conclude their RDR2 story not as earnest ranchers on the prairie, but as criminal profiteers living a lie. 

 

Ironically, I finished RDR2 feeling a lot more sympathy for Agent Ross, and I very much doubt this was the writers’ intention. Now I’m not thinking, “leave this poor man alone,” so much as “Yeah, he made off with a fortune in stolen money taken at the expense of countless good people. Screw this guy.” Not that it’s necessarily right to kidnap someone’s family, make him do your bidding, and then murder him, but it certainly makes me feel a lot less sympathy for that man and his family. 

 

Giving the player $20,000 dollars wasn’t just bad for gameplay reasons, it was devastating for the story. 

Regardless of it being honorable or dishonorable, if I was in John's shoes, I would have taken the money too.

 

"I'm a 35 year old man trying, for the first time in my life, to be more than just a gun. I bought a ranch with money I don't have so I get could get back the only thing that truly matters to me, my family. Inexperienced rancher and farmhand, I now have to make sure we never starve to death.

Oh. Here's 20,000$. Don't mind if I do."

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BoulderFaceplant
5 minutes ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

Regardless of it being honorable or dishonorable, if I was in John's shoes, I would have taken the money too.

 

"I'm a 35 year old man trying, for the first time in my life, to be more than just a gun. I bought a ranch with money I don't have so I get could get back the only thing that truly matters to me, my family. Inexperienced rancher and farmhand, I now have to make sure we never starve to death.

Oh. Here's 20,000$. Don't mind if I do."

It would be tempting, but my point is it severely undermines the dynamic set up in the first game.

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ThroatSlasher2
16 minutes ago, BoulderFaceplant said:

It would be tempting, but my point is it severely undermines the dynamic set up in the first game.

Perhaps, but John does say to Landon Ricketts that he :

 

"already had me woman, got me a farm, then I got me more trouble!" 

 

That last bit could be a retcon'd way to explain John killing Micah and making off with half the Blackwater money. I don't think it undermines John's character too much. John is just a man ready to do anything for the benefit of his family, or what he thinks is best for them, for better or worse. 

 

I'm more pissed off at how socially awkward John is during the epilogue (a real bumbling idiot) and how useless he is through Chapter I through VI. Everything he does turns into a disaster, he has to be rescued time and time again. He keeps getting injured, arrested, shot, in almost every robbery he's in. He displays such ineptitude through all of the main campaign (when he's been with the gang for 14 years) then suddenly becomes the badass we know in the epilogue (after not being a true outlaw for almost a decade).

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Cutter De Blanc
5 hours ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

then suddenly becomes the badass we know in the epilogue (after not being a true outlaw for almost a decade).

Then suddenly becomes Sadie's bitch in the Epilouge 

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ThroatSlasher2
29 minutes ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

Then suddenly becomes Sadie's bitch in the Epilouge 

Sadie is a character that has really ungrown on me over time.

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Cutter De Blanc
1 hour ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

Sadie is a character that has really ungrown on me over time.

My first playthrough Sadie was just kinda "there" (though i had the bug where she wasnt in camp half the time) and she and Arthur did some missions in chapter 6, and then she just became absolutely obnoxious in the epilogue like somebody completely different did the writing for her in the epilogue or something

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BoulderFaceplant

I disagree about Sadie. Remember that John tags along and helps her because he needs the money. But this topic does segue into another thing that bugs me. 

 

The story really suffers from having characters that obviously weren’t thought of when the original was written. In RDR1, John talks about Dutch losing his way, but never even alludes to someone fitting the role of Micah. He speaks at length about his departure from the gang, but never alludes to anyone being on his side or helping him escape. And then you factor in the narrative contradictions between games. It’s distracting how obtusely the two games line up, really.

 

I’m aware that John’s story of leaving the gang, per his account in RDR1, isn’t very interesting on the surface. But the writers could’ve expanded the story without introducing so many elements that frankly have no place being there. Charles, Sadie, Micah, even our beloved Arthur- all feel shoehorned. They - along with several key plot points of RDR2 - simply don’t fit with John’s story. 

 

Its such a shame, too, because the story of Dutch losing grasp of his own philosophy and principles is a fascinating one. It’s the most compelling thread in the story, and guess what? It lines up perfectly with RDR1. RDR2, if it had to be a prequel, should’ve been about John and Dutch first and foremost. 

Edited by BoulderFaceplant

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Shadowfennekin

About John taking the money.... what was he supposed to do? Just leave it there or give it to the feds? lol

The guy has a family and needed to provide for them, the money was long thought lost anyways so I don't see the problem. 'canonically' he probably got enough to pay off the ranch, gameplay wise it was that amount to allow for you to do whatever you want(Cause you lose all Arthur's cash)

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