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BoulderFaceplant

When do you think Micah was first- *SPOILERS*

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BoulderFaceplant

When do you think Micah first began planning to kill Arthur? During the fight at the end, he mentions he’s been waiting a long time for his showdown with Arthur. 

 

Personally I don’t think Micah decides Arthur has to go until sometime after Chapter 4. During an optional stagecoach robbery in that chapter, he confides in Arthur and Bill that he wants to get rid of John Marston, and explains his entire philosophy about how the gang needs to lose the baggage and narrow itself down to a small band of gunmen. He even praises Arthur after the robbery, which says to me he’s testing the waters to get Arthur on his side. 

 

It’s either in Guarma or shortly after, when Arthur gets sick, that Micah decides what needs to happen. Arthur is both loudly opposed to Dutch’s plans and a dying man- he’s both against Micah and one of the “weak” Micah so despises. 

 

So yes, Micah has been waiting a long time to kill Arthur, but Chapter 6 probably does take place over a long period of time. 

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Jimbatron

It’s an interesting question.

 

There is a point where Micah actually says the gang is too big and they need to cut some people loose. I think it’s Chapter IV when you can do an optional stage coach robbery with him.

 

It seems to me his broad objective was to get close to Dutch, whittle down the gang numbers so he could ultimately claim a larger slice of the gangs combined savings.

 

Arthur I think he probably viewed with a mixture of fear and respect. It’s hinted by comments in missions like “Blessed are the Meek” and “A short walk in a pretty town” (“you and me Morgan, we always get the job done!”)

 

I suspect he always recognised Arthur as a potential threat to his ambitions but was in two minds about whether he could risk trying to better him - both because of Arthur’s skill in combat and his closeness to Dutch. I think he’d have always preferred to, but would have realised getting rid of him wasn’t viable. Early on Micah does seem to try to keep him sweet with a few compliments (albeit easy to see through) probably because he thinks he may have to accept Arthur is a permanent fixture.

 

I still suspect, although there’s no direct evidence, that he could have fed Colm Arthur’s position in Chapter 3. He does tell Arthur where to go and there’s no other easy way the ODriscols could have found him. That would have been an easy way for Micah to move up the pecking order with Dutch blaming Colm for it.

 

I think a critical point is Hoseas death in Chapter IV. He’s another character Micah has no chance of directly moving against because of his long connection with Dutch, and while he is around it’s likely the original trio will always maintain a degree of unity. With Hosea gone though it becomes more viable for him to drive a wedge between Arthur and Dutch - although for circumstantial reasons it’s only by Chapter VI he really starts to play his hand.

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O.Z
20 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

There is a point where Micah actually says the gang is too big and they need to cut some people loose. I think it’s Chapter IV when you can do an optional stage coach robbery with him.

Really? I must have missed that.

 

Anyways, Micah you were one of the last ones to join the gang, so that would mean, you are on the list to go first you freaking moron!

 

PS: Dutch chooses a guy who he roughly knows for about 6 months over a lifelong friends, yeah right, great writing Rockstar! Very believable.

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Mac-
20 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

I still suspect, although there’s no direct evidence, that he could have fed Colm Arthur’s position in Chapter 3. He does tell Arthur where to go and there’s no other easy way the ODriscols could have found him. That would have been an easy way for Micah to move up the pecking order with Dutch blaming Colm for it.

 

I had that same feeling, that he set Arthur up on that mission with Colm O'Driscoll. As you say nothing to say he did, but just a feeling.

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HeyThereFriend
37 minutes ago, O.Z said:

Really? I must have missed that.

 

Anyways, Micah you were one of the last ones to join the gang, so that would mean, you are on the list to go first you freaking moron!

 

PS: Dutch chooses a guy who he roughly knows for about 6 months over a lifelong friends, yeah right, great writing Rockstar! Very believable.

I see your point in saying it isn't believable Dutch would choose Micah over life long friends however there is a side to it that does make sense.

 

Micah gives Dutch the one thing Dutch wants most. It's something that his life long friends Arthur, John and Hosea won't give him anymore. That one thing is blind faith. I know the "Have some faith" has become something of a meme now but it's true. Dutch wanted to be followed without any question, any doubt. When the people he's known for so long stop giving him that and then a new guy comes along and gives him everything they no longer are, it was too much for him to say no too or see right through.

 

It's really telling just who exactly Dutch really was.

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Jimbatron

^ This. Although I would add that Micah is feigning blind faith in order to get close to Dutch and move up the pecking order.

 

I found it totally believable. Dutch prizes loyalty (to himself) above all else. It also seems he is cracking under pressure as the Pinkertons are closing in on them and getting increasingly paranoid. Dutch makes the mistake of taking Hosea, Arthur and others for questioning his decisions as disloyalty, when in truth they are probably raising concerns for everyone's benefit, including Dutch himself.

 

Dutch instead takes Micah in to his confidence because he is telling him what he wants to hear. Sadly that's a very common theme in modern business, a mistake that many bosses make who find it difficult to take constructive criticism the right way.

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Mac-
7 minutes ago, Jimbatron said:

^ This. Although I would add that Micah is feigning blind faith in order to get close to Dutch and move up the pecking order.

 

I found it totally believable. Dutch prizes loyalty (to himself) above all else. It also seems he is cracking under pressure as the Pinkertons are closing in on them and getting increasingly paranoid. Dutch makes the mistake of taking Hosea, Arthur and others for questioning his decisions as disloyalty, when in truth they are probably raising concerns for everyone's benefit, including Dutch himself.

 

Dutch instead takes Micah in to his confidence because he is telling him what he wants to hear. Sadly that's a very common theme in modern business, a mistake that many bosses make who find it difficult to take constructive criticism the right way.

 

Yep I'm in my second playthrough and taking it easy, being around the camp more, you can definitely see Dutch loose it sooner than I did in the first playthrough (could be a case of knowledge here though).

 

I always thought Arthur's, and probably Hosea questioning of Dutch was their disbelief that Dutch was taking them in the opposite direction to one the gang had agree on. No doubt at all Dutch took that as disloyalty.

 

Not only a common theme in business as you say, but sadly some times we let it creep into our lives.

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Marcinguy

It seemed to me that Dutch only fully embraced Micah in Chapter 6, after Aurthur sprung John out of prison against Dutch's wish. With Hosea gone and Arthur in his mind turning on him, an unhinged Dutch made a big mistake elevating Micah to top dog. Micah plays Dutch in order to wittle down the gang at the end and possibly to get Dutch to tell him where the Blackwater money is stashed so he can get it all for himself.

 

I have no problem with the writing. It makes sense to me but there is a lot of reading between the lines. A second play through is helping me put this in more perspective, as I'm in CH 6 right now. Dutch is becoming furious with Arthur for questioning his authority all the time and finally shuts him out, while moving Micah up to the top spot. This fractures the gang and then it's all downhill. The attack on the oil field at the end is the final hurrah for the gang riding as one, and even there the gangs problems bubble to the surface as Dutch leaves Arthur to die.

9 hours ago, Mac- said:

 

I had that same feeling, that he set Arthur up on that mission with Colm O'Driscoll. As you say nothing to say he did, but just a feeling.

 

I had the same feeling the whole time as well. I really thought it was Micah who somehow set Arthur up during the meet. He didn't expect Arthur to survive.

9 hours ago, O.Z said:

 

 

PS: Dutch chooses a guy who he roughly knows for about 6 months over a lifelong friends, yeah right, great writing Rockstar! Very believable.

It sure is believable. Lifelong friends can surely get into irreconcilable tiffs and stop talking to each other, as can family. It happens all the time. Happened in my family and among some of my friends. Such is life. Later, they may reconcile, and redeem themselves. Heh.

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BoulderFaceplant
11 hours ago, O.Z said:

Really? I must have missed that.

 

Anyways, Micah you were one of the last ones to join the gang, so that would mean, you are on the list to go first you freaking moron!

 

PS: Dutch chooses a guy who he roughly knows for about 6 months over a lifelong friends, yeah right, great writing Rockstar! Very believable.

Dutch had a vision for America as an outlaw’s paradise, which Micah pretended to believe in so that he could ultimately get a huge slice of the Blackwater money (or all if possible). Everyone else was outspoken in their correct observation that this would never happen, in the West or anywhere. They rallied back to his side for a while when the goal became leaving the country altogether, but other factors caused this to dissolve as well. 

Edited by BoulderFaceplant

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RJX74

You can hear him laughing in Chapter 5 when Arthur is found alive in Guarma. Sounds genuine enough.

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RyuNova

I dont think he had plans to kill Arthur but he would jump at the chance to. Micahs knew that Arthur was physically stronger and a better gunslinger than him and what rattled Micah the most was Arthur saw right through him from the beginning, something that Micah was not used to because lets be honest...does Micah seem like the kind of person that attracts intelligent people to him? No, he most likely partnered with morons and inbred thugs, people he could easily manipulate.

 

Nobody in the gang gave him any respect until Hosea died and he seized his chance to be the whispering snake in Dutch's ear, Dutch was rattled because a plan he made ended up in the death of his best friend and Micah bled that doubt by giving him fake GODDAMN FAITH! so Dutch naturally gravitated towards Micah.

Even in the verge of death Arthur still physically over powered Micah, Arthur would have broken him in his prime.

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BoulderFaceplant

It does seem like Micah would especially enjoy killing Arthur, but it’s worth noting he puts that aside early in Chapter 6 when he extends an olive branch, flat-out stating “Stick with me and you’ll live.” So even until close to the end, it seems like Micah would appreciate Arthur on his side, even if they continued hating each other. 

 

When he says he’s been waiting a long time for his showdown with Arthur, he could just be referencing his gut feeling rather than any concrete plan. 

Edited by BoulderFaceplant

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Smokewood
On 2/5/2019 at 12:32 AM, BoulderFaceplant said:

When do you think Micah first began planning to kill Arthur? During the fight at the end, he mentions he’s been waiting a long time for his showdown with Arthur. 

 

Personally I don’t think Micah decides Arthur has to go until sometime after Chapter 4. During an optional stagecoach robbery in that chapter, he confides in Arthur and Bill that he wants to get rid of John Marston, and explains his entire philosophy about how the gang needs to lose the baggage and narrow itself down to a small band of gunmen. He even praises Arthur after the robbery, which says to me he’s testing the waters to get Arthur on his side. 

 

It’s either in Guarma or shortly after, when Arthur gets sick, that Micah decides what needs to happen. Arthur is both loudly opposed to Dutch’s plans and a dying man- he’s both against Micah and one of the “weak” Micah so despises. 

 

So yes, Micah has been waiting a long time to kill Arthur, but Chapter 6 probably does take place over a long period of time. 

Well, in my game he doesn't kill Arthur. Arthur died from TB.

On 2/5/2019 at 4:37 AM, Jimbatron said:

There is a point where Micah actually says the gang is too big and they need to cut some people loose. I think it’s Chapter IV when you can do an optional stage coach robbery with him.

 

He says it in chapter 1 if you ask him the right question on the ride to the Adler Ranch!

Says they have too many mouths to feed and that they do not pull their own weight. 

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Gray-Hand

In chapter 4, when you go to rob a stage coach - I think it’s an optional mission - he specifically says that that the gang would be better as six good guns and no dead weight.  

 

I think he set Arthur up to get captured by the O’Driscolls in Chapter 3.  If it weren’t a set up, Dutch and Micah would also have died.

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O.Z
On 2/11/2019 at 9:13 PM, Gray-Hand said:

In chapter 4, when you go to rob a stage coach - I think it’s an optional mission - he specifically says that that the gang would be better as six good guns and no dead weight.  

 

I think he set Arthur up to get captured by the O’Driscolls in Chapter 3.  If it weren’t a set up, Dutch and Micah would also have died.

He has a point. The gang was way too big... it should have been: Marston, Arthur, Hosea, Uncle, Dutch, Charles, Bill, Javier and Abigail with Jack. Screw the rest

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Gray-Hand
5 hours ago, O.Z said:

He has a point. The gang was way too big... it should have been: Marston, Arthur, Hosea, Uncle, Dutch, Charles, Bill, Javier and Abigail with Jack. Screw the rest

Uncle?

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O.Z
39 minutes ago, Gray-Hand said:

Uncle?

Of course, he is a geezer

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Cuzzzin
On 2/6/2019 at 2:03 AM, O.Z said:

PS: Dutch chooses a guy who he roughly knows for about 6 months over a lifelong friends, yeah right, great writing Rockstar! Very believable.

It's believable because it literally happened. Micah's ascendance is heavily based on the relationship between Jesse James and Robert Ford. The characters are not 1:1 analogues at all, but Ford was able in the course of a year to become a close confidant with Jesse over more longterm gang members after a botched robbery. Ford like Micah eventually turned to the law although with quite a different outcome. 

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Gray-Hand
18 hours ago, O.Z said:

He has a point. The gang was way too big... it should have been: Marston, Arthur, Hosea, Uncle, Dutch, Charles, Bill, Javier and Abigail with Jack. Screw the rest

That combination seems to assume that the purpose of the gang is to be as effective as possible at robbing people.  That just isn’t why the gang existed.

 

The purpose of the gang was to fulfill Dutch’s dream of living in a society unconstrained by the rules of civilisation.  It needed more than just a bunch of badass outlaws to function.

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Cutter De Blanc

Whenever I antagonize him at camp enough he says, "Just you wait.." or "You'll keep."

So since I broke him outta jail I guess

Edited by Cutter De Blanc

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O.Z
5 hours ago, Gray-Hand said:

That combination seems to assume that the purpose of the gang is to be as effective as possible at robbing people.  That just isn’t why the gang existed.

 

The purpose of the gang was to fulfill Dutch’s dream of living in a society unconstrained by the rules of civilisation.  It needed more than just a bunch of badass outlaws to function.

And that was their downfall, Dutch wanting to create something like a hippie community, it just didn’t work. Recruiting new gang members right left and centre didn’t work either. Just ask Arthur! Not to mention the fact that the gang was as good as robbing people as were the Wet Bandits from Home Alone. 

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RyuNova
4 hours ago, O.Z said:

And that was their downfall, Dutch wanting to create something like a hippie community, it just didn’t work. Recruiting new gang members right left and centre didn’t work either. Just ask Arthur! Not to mention the fact that the gang was as good as robbing people as were the Wet Bandits from Home Alone. 

 

Dutch wanted to create a Cult around himself. Dutch IS a Cult Leader in everything but name. His whole personality, character and demeanor through the story points to this. If the Gang had started whatever commune was supposed to be the plan it would have evolved into a full blown Cult of Dutch. Exactly like The Father from FC5 without the religious elements.

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Gray-Hand

I don’t see how Grimshaw, Tilly, Karen, Pearson etc contributed in any meaningful way to the downfall of the Van Der Linde Gang.  The significant events that caused the decline and fall of the gang were:

 

1.  The Blackwater robbery (Micah & Dutch to blame).

2.  Repeatedly targeting Leviticus Cornwall (Dutch, Arthur, Bill, Uncle, Micah, Javier).

3.  Shooting up Valentine (Dutch, Arthur, John, Strauss)

4. Warring with the O’Driscolls without achieving a decisive outcome(Dutch, Micah, Arthur).  

5.  Pushing their luck way too far in Rhodes (Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, Micah).

6. Getting in with Angelo Bronte (Dutch, mainly)

7.  The Saint Dennis debacle (Hosea, Arthur - Dutch was actually 50/50 on this one)

8. Getting involved in the Indian war (Arthur, Dutch, Javier, Bill, Charles).

9.  Actively targeting the US government (Dutch, Micah, John, Arthur).

 

The people who put the gang in jeopardy were the decision makers and the enforcers.  

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Deadman2112
On 2/13/2019 at 4:49 PM, Cuzzzin said:

It's believable because it literally happened. Micah's ascendance is heavily based on the relationship between Jesse James and Robert Ford. The characters are not 1:1 analogues at all, but Ford was able in the course of a year to become a close confidant with Jesse over more longterm gang members after a botched robbery. Ford like Micah eventually turned to the law although with quite a different outcome. 

 

Yeah, Jesse invited Ford to his home and some time during that visit, Ford shot Jesse in the back of the head. He was later commonly referred to by many as coward because he not only shot him in the back but did so while Jesse's wife and kids were there. This ultimately earned Ford a $10,000.00 bounty for the deed.

 

Although different outcomes, it's easy to see the parallels and similarities between the two. It was said Ford was so taken by Jesse at one point in his life, that the people who knew him best said he was extremely obsessed with Jesse that he wanted to be Jesse.

 

I said on another post that Micah had daddy issues when it came to impressing Dutch and this theory along with the video below is the reason I made that statement.

 

 

I've seen 2 other interactions between Micah and Dutch that are very similar to the one in the video. Based on those interactions, I think Micah would wear Dutch's skin if he could and definitely shows how fanboy daddy issues he is about Dutch.

 

He is definitely twisted...

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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RyuNova
17 hours ago, Deadman2112 said:

I've seen 2 other interactions between Micah and Dutch that are very similar to the one in the video. Based on those interactions, I think Micah would wear Dutch's skin if he could and definitely shows how fanboy daddy issues he is about Dutch.

 

He is definitely twisted...

 

I disagree.

Micah is simply telling Dutch what he wants to hear because hes an egomaniac psychopath and Micah realised and latched onto that quickly. The reason Micah had Dutch's hear even at the end is because he told him the single word he wanted to hear which was "Yes"

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Deadman2112

That seems a bit exaggerated for ego stroking 

...but to each their own I guess.

 

Just saying, if someone acted like that trying to gain my attention I would immediately think to myself...

Ok, this just got all "single white female" and you need to go now.

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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Gray-Hand
12 hours ago, Deadman2112 said:

That seems a bit exaggerated for ego stroking 

...but to each their own I guess.

 

Just saying, if someone acted like that trying to gain my attention I would immediately think to myself...

Ok, this just got all "single white female" and you need to go now.

 

Yeah, but you aren’t a narcicist with a messiah complex.  Egomaniacs are particularly vulnerable to flattery.

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Rafae S

After he goes against Dutch for the first time and saves John.

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