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SouthLand

The low/high honor dosen't make any sense in story mode. [My ideas]

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SouthLand

WARNING SPOILERS

 

Maybe it's just me but i just don't get the low/high honor in the story mode. 

 

I played the game trying to achieve the lowest honor I could possibly can with Arthur. I killed, robbed and beat the sh*t out of everybody i could as much as possible. And all of this meant nothing. After chapter "x" (I don't know which one exactly), Arthur stars developing "feelings" just because he acknowledges he is not going to make it alive due to his sickness. And that's okay if you have high honor, but bullsh*t if you have low honor. If you have low honor you should just be angrier that you are going to die and turn into a "Psychopath" stage or something like that. Let me explain;

 

It doesn't make sense, that you as a player are deciding the low honor decisions which involves killing, robbing and doing all the wrong things you can imagine, and then in the cut scenes, Arthur develops feelings. Another thing i don't get, is if you have low honor, why do you kick out Mr. Strauss from camp? You should side with him and enjoy doing those missions, that's what bad honor is! You should feel proud about what you did to Ms. Townes and her family.

 

Another thing i don't get, you have the lowest honor ever, and instead of siding with Dutch no matter what, you start questioning him just because you know you are going to die from Tuberculosis and you develope feelings. When you should stick around more than ever with him, because the lowest honor you have, the most psychotic should make you and more loyal to Dutch, since you are angry that you are going to die, and you blame it on everybody that has targeted the gang and to your thinking, If the gang had not been targeted, maybe you wouldn't have catch the disease. It might not make sense, but a psycho would have thought that way (If you are not with me you are against me)

 

That why i think there should be at least two endings:

 

Ending with high honor: The regular ending for the game

 

Ending with low honor: Arthur, gets more and more attached to Dutch like Javier Escuella. Becomes more psychotic and violent when he discovers he is sick. John Marston, decides to do what Arthur did and "betray" the gang. In the standoff scene where Ms. Grimshaw gets shot, Arthur sides with Dutch. Micah shoots John Marston and wounds him in the leg, he then eventually flees. Arthur, Micah and Dutch escape. A few missions later, Arthur discovers that Micah is the rat, and tells Dutch. After an intense shooting (Arthur + Micah + Javier Escuella vs. Micah + Joe + Cleet), Micah is going to kill Dutch to get his reward from the Pikertons, but Arthur jumps in front taking a bullet to his stomach to save Dutch. Dutch shoot back at Micah but he escapes. Arthur dies in Dutch's hands. Dutch, tells Arthur that he will break his promise of "NO REVENGE" and go after Micah.

 

*Normal Epilogue until the go for Dutch/Micah mission"

 

Saddie, Charles and John go to the snowy mountain to find Micah. They found that Dutch and his new gang are going after Micah (+ Cleet and Joe) as well. John fight all of Micah's men and the last cutscene is Dutch and John holding at gunpoint a defeated Micah. They both shoot and kill Micah and after doing so, they look at each other and both walk separate ways. 

 

 

What do you guys think? Should Rockstar made a more than clear difference between Low and High honor or should they have done it like I say. 

 

 

 

Disclamer: I am not hating on Rockstar or the game, just giving my opinion.

 

Edited by SouthLand

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Antipode

Well the game is called Red Dead REDEMPTION for a reason; because the narrative revolves around redemption.

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cp1dell

Come on man. It’s Red Dead Redemption.

 

(Also it’s the honor scale. Not the good/evil scale)

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JavierC

Yeah I was bugged too about Arthur being so sentimental. I love my boah but he was a little too melancholic.

 

I like to see my protagonists as badasses with a good heart like Niko and John. They know they are f*cked up, but get over it and continue with their business.

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FreeMaxB585

just because you can do low honor things doesnt mean there is a story line for being some sociopath, child molester, no feeling person or whatever else want to be. It is called red dead redemption to....even if do a bunch of asshole things redeem yourself by saving john, rescuing abigale etc. it wasnt designed for a story line to turn arthur into a monster with no feelings. There would be no redemption at all....and if he did that John killing Micah wouldnt be redeeming arthur he would have no reason to

 

And thats what great about arthur and makes him so complex and amazing. can do f*cked up things but can see deep down hes still human and a good guy who cares about people who is just stuck in a sh*tty situation

 

And your low honor ending would be TRASH. why would arhur take a bullet for dutch when dutch left him to die twice? the most recent time about a day or 2 before all that when rains fall had to save him when dutch walked right out the door. Wanted to leave abigale in prison and left john to die at the train mission. If you want to make a debate on john and abigale fine but there is no defense for him taking a bullet for a guy who left him to die twice

2 hours ago, Antipode said:

Well the game is called Red Dead REDEMPTION for a reason; because the narrative revolves around redemption.

 

lol exactly. its not "red dead psychopath"

Edited by FreeMaxB585

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Antipode

 

1 hour ago, JavierC said:

Yeah I was bugged too about Arthur being so sentimental. I love my boah but he was a little too melancholic.

 

I like to see my protagonists as badasses with a good heart like Niko and John. They know they are f*cked up, but get over it and continue with their business.

I don't see Arthur as being melancholic at all, he's more realistic and down to earth more than anything else. What's more badass than drawing a line and doing everything you can to make sure that the people you see the good in, and care about, make it out of a cut throat situation alive and intact? What Arthur does is the definition of badass. Just because he shows some emotion towards the end doesn't make him any less so - he's realistic.

Edited by Antipode

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JavierC
24 minutes ago, Antipode said:

 

I don't see Arthur as being melancholic at all, he's more realistic and down to earth more than anything else. What's more badass than drawing a line and doing everything you can to make sure that the people you see the good in, and care about, make it out of a cut throat situation alive and intact? What Arthur does is the definition of badass. Just because he shows some emotion towards the end doesn't make him any less so - he's realistic.

I understand the arc of Arthur, I just wished they didn't focus too much on that aspect of the story. It's a western after all, there are rugged men making serious moves there, I expect a lot of vengeance and straight faces till the end of their lives - not necessary realistic behavior but cooler in my book.

 

Again, personal taste. Just my opinion.

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Antipode
18 minutes ago, JavierC said:

I understand the arc of Arthur, I just wished they didn't focus too much on that aspect of the story. It's a western after all, there are rugged men making serious moves there, I expect a lot of vengeance and straight faces till the end of their lives - not necessary realistic behavior but cooler in my book.

 

Again, personal taste. Just my opinion.

But they didn't focus too much on it, it was mainly the last chapter of his story. 

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JavierC
8 minutes ago, Antipode said:

But they didn't focus too much on it, it was mainly the last chapter of his story. 

Well that's a lot to me.

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Antipode
8 minutes ago, JavierC said:

Well that's a lot to me.

Maybe you should reconsider what you constitute as "too much", because one chapter out of six is not too much. There's nothing uncool about his attitude towards the end, he chose the noble and hard path. If he had continued to follow Dutch and continued on that path, that would be taking the easy way out, but he did the hardest thing by drawing the line and making a stand. That takes strength. 

Edited by Antipode

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RJX74
5 hours ago, Antipode said:

Well the game is called Red Dead REDEMPTION for a reason; because the narrative revolves around redemption.

But I will say the first game handled it better.

 

Hey I've been evil for 5/6 of the game, now that I'm sick time to try and fix everything.

3 hours ago, JavierC said:

Yeah I was bugged too about Arthur being so sentimental. I love my boah but he was a little too melancholic.

 

I like to see my protagonists as badasses with a good heart like Niko and John. They know they are f*cked up, but get over it and continue with their business.

I never really saw John as having a heart. During the Mexico chapter he helps the tyrannical army kill rebels when searching for his family.IAlso does nothing about the women the soldiers kidnap for Allende to rape. It was clear to me that he was pretty apathetic to right and wrong.

Edited by RJX74

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JavierC
3 minutes ago, RJX74 said:

I never really saw John as having a heart. During the Mexico chapter he helps the tyrannical army kill rebels when searching for his family. IAlso does nothing about the women the soldiers kidnap so Allende can rape. It was clear to me that he was pretty apathetic to right and wrong.

He wants to rescue his family, and knows there's only one way to do it. He doesn't care about right and wrong or fairness in the world, he's a cold blooded killer who fell in love and tried to escape that life.

 

He does all the killing for one reason only - the love for his family. That's having a heart.

 

You kill people so easily, yet you respect the vows of marriage. That's very curious, John.

 

 

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FreeMaxB585
15 hours ago, RJX74 said:

But I will say the first game handled it better.

 

Hey I've been evil for 5/6 of the game, now that I'm sick time to try and fix everything.

I never really saw John as having a heart. During the Mexico chapter he helps the tyrannical army kill rebels when searching for his family.IAlso does nothing about the women the soldiers kidnap for Allende to rape. It was clear to me that he was pretty apathetic to right and wrong.

 

I think at that point john had just been through so much sh*t and just wants to save his ranch and his family

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Cutter De Blanc

I wish if we had finished the game with low honor we could play as Dutch instead of Johnny goody-two-shoes

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ThroatSlasher2

I actually think they did a pretty good job at portraying Arthur's motivations differently between low honor and high honor.

 

High Honor - Arthur seems heartbroken and betrayed by Dutch and is at a loss for words. He starts to think for himself and acts upon what HE thinks are the right choices to make.

 

Low Honor - Arthur is angry and resentful of Dutch's (and Micah's) accumulating betrayals and goes against Dutch's will, just to spite him. He doesn't do it because it's right, he does it to make Dutch angry.

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Oldsport
2 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

I wish if we had finished the game with low honor we could play as Dutch instead of Johnny goody-two-shoes

or play as either bill or javier

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Tonesta
20 hours ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

I actually think they did a pretty good job at portraying Arthur's motivations differently between low honor and high honor.

 

High Honor - Arthur seems heartbroken and betrayed by Dutch and is at a loss for words. He starts to think for himself and acts upon what HE thinks are the right choices to make.

 

Low Honor - Arthur is angry and resentful of Dutch's (and Micah's) accumulating betrayals and goes against Dutch's will, just to spite him. He doesn't do it because it's right, he does it to make Dutch angry.

Tend to agree with this.

 

Though I will say that - of the four endings that Rockstar wrote - only two of them make any sense at all.

 

The decision at the end of Red Dead Redemption (the mission) shouldn't really have been much of a decision at all.

 

If you're playing as High Honor Arthur - then you've decided to dedicate your final moments to doing some good, righting some wrongs and, above all, getting John and his family out of the life. Going after the money rather than helping John makes absolutely no sense. But if you're playing as Low Honor Arthur, then you're all about the anger. And the opportunity to go after the money, and make Dutch and Micah pay for their betrayals should have been too much to resist.

 

For me, they should've just written two endings (High Honor/Help John, and Low Honor/Go for the money) and have the game automatically steer you into one or the other depending on your honor meter. Rather than give you a final choice to go and do something completely out of character.

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ThroatSlasher2
3 hours ago, Tonesta said:

Tend to agree with this.

 

Though I will say that - of the four endings that Rockstar wrote - only two of them make any sense at all.

 

The decision at the end of Red Dead Redemption (the mission) shouldn't really have been much of a decision at all.

 

If you're playing as High Honor Arthur - then you've decided to dedicate your final moments to doing some good, righting some wrongs and, above all, getting John and his family out of the life. Going after the money rather than helping John makes absolutely no sense. But if you're playing as Low Honor Arthur, then you're all about the anger. And the opportunity to go after the money, and make Dutch and Micah pay for their betrayals should have been too much to resist.

 

For me, they should've just written two endings (High Honor/Help John, and Low Honor/Go for the money) and have the game automatically steer you into one or the other depending on your honor meter. Rather than give you a final choice to go and do something completely out of character.

Well, I think the game actually does that (in some subtle ways) very well. I watched my friend play Chapter 6 in its entirety and was amazed at how many lines of dialogues were different from my playthrough. I was high honor, he was low.

 

My Arthur was always saying that Dutch and Micah were fools and that the important part was to get out of this mess alive, excluding him of course. His Arthur was always talking about "the muhney" so I was convinced that by the end, he would have been steered into going back for the money but he instead chose to help John because he realized Arthur was doomed. 

 

And then he got shot in the face and got really pissed lol.

 

But you get my point. Since Arthur's you and you're Arthur, you should, in essence, follow his will and each portrayal of him tends to give into either selflessness or revenge.

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Tonesta
18 hours ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

Well, I think the game actually does that (in some subtle ways) very well. I watched my friend play Chapter 6 in its entirety and was amazed at how many lines of dialogues were different from my playthrough. I was high honor, he was low.

 

My Arthur was always saying that Dutch and Micah were fools and that the important part was to get out of this mess alive, excluding him of course. His Arthur was always talking about "the muhney" so I was convinced that by the end, he would have been steered into going back for the money but he instead chose to help John because he realized Arthur was doomed. 

 

And then he got shot in the face and got really pissed lol.

 

But you get my point. Since Arthur's you and you're Arthur, you should, in essence, follow his will and each portrayal of him tends to give into either selflessness or revenge.

Oh, I agree. My favourite one is that they discuss the concept of revenge in American Venom. Even after the whole prologue, how that conversation goes depends on Arthur's honor when he died. Good Arthur = "Arthur would not have approved of us taking revenge on Micah"; Bad Arthur = "Arthur would have been happy that we took revenge on Micah".

 

I guess my point was more that the game clearly directs you towards one choice in the final mission that depends on your play style - but then it also allows you to ignore Arthur's will and make a decision in the final mission that makes no narrative sense (a bit like the 'Kill Michael' ending for GTAV). It just seems like an odd, recurring thing that Rockstar writes these long, immersive stories and then decides right at the end to not only let you **** them up by doing something completely out-of-character but also writes you a special ending for it.

 

For a game that doesn't give you a whole lot of choices when it comes to the story (as opposed to almost limitless choices when it comes to free roam), and controls the narrative pretty tightly, it just seems really weird to me that they decide to give up that control right at the end.

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