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Grotti Vigilante

[SPOILERS] Was Dutch van der Linde's fall from grace inevitable?

Do you think Dutch van der Linde's fall from grace was inevitable?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think Dutch van der Linde's fall from grace was inevitable?

    • Yes, it was absolutely inevitable.
      17
    • No, it could've well been avoided.
      11
    • I don't know for sure, really.
      6


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Grotti Vigilante

So anyone whose played Red Dead Redemption II and beaten it will have no doubt seen Dutch van der Linde's fall from being a charismatic outlaw with a Robin Hood style philosophy behind him. Someone who believed in a free nation with no government or corporate interference. But then he became what we know of him in Red Dead Redemption a this crazy, psychopathic killer who wouldn't hesitate to take a life if need be. But to some people, this isn't a matter of him changing, it's more a matter of him becoming who he truly is, with John Marston later thinking that everything he did was just an excuse to kill and rob people. Now I don't particularly agree with the philosophy of  people never changing, but even with that in mind, do you think Dutch van der Linde's fall from grace was inevitable?

 

Throughout the game Dutch commands loyalty and faith from his gang, and people often cite the death of Hosea as the point in which Dutch lost it. Usually Dutch would consult Hosea and Arthur with plans that he had, sometimes putting it to a vote, but since Hosea died Dutch took a much tighter grip on the gang and began to call anyone who questioned him a doubter and considered it an act of betrayal. This is why he was so drawn to Micah afterwards, cause Micah never questioned Dutch's actions no matter how irrational. He had what Dutch wanted, which was faith and blind loyalty. This is evident when he is reluctant to believe Arthur of Micah being a rat for the Pinkertons, even though Arthur was like a son to him of twenty years. This was all because Arthur began to question Dutch's decisions.

 

Now again, this is if you consider Hosea's death to be what lead to Dutch's downfall, but in my opinion this wasn't the case. Early on in the game you can hear people go on about how the ferry job in Blackwater didn't feel right and how Dutch was uncharacteristic at that point. Hosea even goes on in camp about how he's questioned Dutch's state for a while. Meanwhile Dutch gets annoyed at what he thinks is "incessant whining" from Hosea early on too. It seems even as far as before Blackwater's ferry job is Dutch's leadership and ways of life being questioned. If you ask me, Hosea's death was merely the final nail in the coffin for Dutch van der Linde before he became who he truly was. Now I know I don't believe in the principle of people not changing but becoming more of who they are, but I think this was just the case with Dutch.

 

The fact is that it seems Dutch was always a manipulator. Someone who wanted blind loyalty and faith in his leadership, and someone who had this nature that he couldn't control. I don't think he didn't care about his gang members, since he didn't kill Arthur and John for what he saw as betraying them even though he could've done. It seems really that he had a dream of a free America that was being crushed as civilization became an inevitability, and he knew this was happening. Even before death he states "our time has passed" before killing himself. So in my opinion, I think that even if Hosea didn't die, Dutch van der Linde would've fallen from grace into what we know him to be in Red Dead Redemption sooner or later. 

 

But what about you personally? Do you think Dutch van der Linde changed as a person, or do you think he just became more of who he truly was? Do you think his downfall was a matter of bad circumstances, or do you think it was just an inevitability that would've happened sooner or later no matter the circumstances that would've came about? Discuss... 

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jje1000
Posted (edited)

I think it was inevitable, but it didn't need to end the way it did.

 

A good number of the gang could have gotten out alive if things went a little differently.

 

Edited by jje1000

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Rykjeklut

My vote went for "could have been avoided", but when I gave it some more thought, and read what OP said, i'm not so sure. I had forgotten about all the details regarding the Blackwater job, and how he cocked it up at that early stage.

 

I don't doubt that Hosea's death had an impact on the gangs powerstructure, or Dutch's mental standings. Some have even pointed to the time he banged his head in the trolley, but it had begun before that.

 

I do kinda want the next RDR to be set before RDR2, just to see if Dutch ever was a great leader, or if it's just his charisma that keeps his desperate, lost, and abandoned gang of misfits together.

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Mirror Park Resident
Posted (edited)

I don't know. 

 

I'd say yes, because the toxic Micahs don't always happen in life. But a leader that only has ears for his yesmen and not for the constructive critics is about to fail in whatever thing he does. Only the absence of said toxic influences can salvage the day. And it did for Dutch through many years.

Edited by Fluffy Sock

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jje1000
Posted (edited)

 

21 minutes ago, Rykjeklut said:

I don't doubt that Hosea's death had an impact on the gangs powerstructure, or Dutch's mental standings. Some have even pointed to the time he banged his head in the trolley, but it had begun before that.

I agree with the power structure, it was clear from the start that Dutch was already ignoring Hosea's advice (i.e. Blackwater, Cornwall's train), but I think Hosea's death had a huge mental impact on Dutch and accelerated his decline.

 

I would to see the gang as they were in Pearson's photo, IMO.

Edited by jje1000

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Cutter De Blanc

I wonder if the Saint Denis bank job had gone successfully if they would've gone and retired to Tahiti or if there was always gonna be "one last score" until things fell apart anyway

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Gray-Hand

Dutch wanted to live without the rules of civilisation.  The  destruction of that fantasy and the repeated, tragic failures to prevent it despite his best efforts drove him to irrationality.

First he lashed out in anger (chapters 5 & 6), then he was driven to dispair (epilogue), and by the time of RDR1 he was fully batsh*t.

 

Even if the gang had got to Tahiti after chapter 4, civilisation would have caught up with them eventually and Dutch’s dream would have come to an end which would have seen him go off the deep end again, unless the years had somehow mellowed him.

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Marston1911

Possibly if Arthur never got sick, Micah wouldn't have had a say on Dutch's plans.

 

When Arthur was well physically, Dutch was better mentally. They both deteriorated at the same time. Maybe Dutch didn't think Arthur was well enough to be his right hand man anymore, so looked for a replacement in Micah.

 

Arthur's death completely broke Dutch when he spoke his last words. For the first time he was speechless and didn't know what to do.  He was probably consumed by guilt when we seen him in the epilogue and was looking for his own redemption, but he was already too far gone.

 

 

 

 

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Corndawg93
Posted (edited)

I believe Dutch's downfall started the second he brought Miceh on board, Miceh had an agenda and that was to collect the bounty money to bring Dutch in, that's why he thought a giant open space like Dewberry creek was a good idea for a camp

Edited by Corndawg93

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Furi0sa

Could have been avoided. The gang is loaded after the valentine heist with bill and Karen. With inflation that was clearly enough money to get to Tahiti and mango farm away.

2 hours ago, Marston1911 said:

Possibly if Arthur never got sick, Micah wouldn't have had a say on Dutch's plans.

 

When Arthur was well physically, Dutch was better mentally. They both deteriorated at the same time. Maybe Dutch didn't think Arthur was well enough to be his right hand man anymore, so looked for a replacement in Micah.

 

Arthur's death completely broke Dutch when he spoke his last words. For the first time he was speechless and didn't know what to do.  He was probably consumed by guilt when we seen him in the epilogue and was looking for his own redemption, but he was already too far gone.

 

 

Great post, the writing made it pretty clear Dutch loved Arthur but Dutch's ego couldn't be trifled with and Arthur's incessant doubting and Micah's whispers were driving a wedge between the two. That and Dutch is just freaking nuts.

 

 

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TheSantader25

It could be avoided. If more people in the gang had brains inside their skull. 

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Darealbandicoot
Posted (edited)

Maybe. Dutch was obviously becoming more unhinged as the story went on, even with Hosea around but he completely snapped after his death and became extremely paranoid. 

Edited by Darealbandicoot

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Smokewood
Posted (edited)

You used the spoiler tag but then put the spoiled info right into the title.

 

To answer the thread:

He was never good to begin with so he never fell.....

He's a scam artist no different than Hosea who was also extremely flawed.

Edited by Smokewood

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Grotti Vigilante
35 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

You used the spoiler tag but then but the spoiled info right into the title.

Yes. The spoiler tag is at the beginning in big capital letters so it stands out and is the first thing you read. Besides, we all kind of know that Dutch van der Line had a fall from grace since he was a killer in the original Red Dead Redemption, and if I remember correctly was said to once be a good man. 

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Smokewood
Just now, Grotti Vigilante said:

Yes. The spoiler tag is at the beginning in big capital letters so it stands out and is the first thing you read. Besides, we all kind of know that Dutch van der Line had a fall from grace since he was a killer in the original Red Dead Redemption, and if I remember correctly was said to once be a good man. 

Whatever - some of us have never played RDR1, nor are we finished with the story.

It would have been real easy to make the title "Let's talk about Dutch" <spoilers>

 

 

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Grotti Vigilante
Just now, Smokewood said:

Whatever - some of us have never played RDR1, nor are we finished with the story.

It would have been real easy to make the title "Let's talk about Dutch" <spoilers>

RDR1 is an eight-year old game. I think we've had more than enough time before we can start mentioning spoilers. 

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Smokewood
1 minute ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

RDR1 is an eight-year old game. I think we've had more than enough time before we can start mentioning spoilers. 

except you spoiled RDR2....

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Grotti Vigilante
Just now, Smokewood said:

except you spoiled RDR2....

We are talking about a character who we already knew the fate of from the start, so the title doesn't really reveal anything we couldn't have figured out. The spoiler tag is to indicate that the thread will contain spoilers, and as such there was plenty warning for people to jump into this thread. The actual idea of Dutch falling from grace is something we knew happened anyway, so don't act like I've ruined the entire fate of a character for you.

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wangsparkinglot
Posted (edited)

Interesting discussion, I never felt warmth towards Dutch starting with his revenge lust with Colm O'driscoll in the snow early on.

He may have been a good leader at some point but was more a con artist in my eyes throughout the game. Hosea and Arthur balanced him no doubt but the poor decisions and the worsening locations to live culminating in Beaver Hollow fractured the gang and morale. 

He was always one more score when in fact he had more than enough money to take the gang wherever

Edited by wangsparkinglot

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Cutter De Blanc

Yeah he had like 42000 dollars stashed in that cave at the end

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Mirror Park Resident
9 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

Yeah he had like 42000 dollars stashed in that cave at the end

I think it was something like double of that when I did that mission. Maybe I completed more robberies or donated more money, I don't know. 

 

We could go to BUY f*cking Tahiti, damn you Dutch..........😖

 

 

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Jimbatron

The fall was inevitable but it could have been more graceful.

 

The Pinkertons were always going to get them in the end - it was just a question of when, not it if. That’s illustrated very clearly that after Milton is gone Ross carries on the torch.

 

Dutch’s handling of the situation meant the enviable collapse was more ugly for those involved.

 

Presumably he realised at the end in “American venom” that Micah was responsible for sowing division in the camp and betrayal. It’s intereting to speculate how much he would have acknowledged his own failing. Because people like Arthur were questioning him he took that for disloyalty. In reality what Arthur was saying was with Dutch’s interest at heart as much as everyone else’s. Instead he took Micah into his confidence because he appeared to be loyal but in reality had his own agenda. I doubt someone of his character would have been able to acknowledge his own failings.

 

Had Dutch kicked Micah out things would have been very different. Bill and Javier would have still be loyally to him. Arthur and John would probably have been satisfied. So it wouldn’t have disintegrated so horribly. But the Pinkertons would have kept coming.

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Smokewood
14 hours ago, Grotti Vigilante said:

We are talking about a character who we already knew the fate of from the start, so the title doesn't really reveal anything we couldn't have figured out. The spoiler tag is to indicate that the thread will contain spoilers, and as such there was plenty warning for people to jump into this thread. The actual idea of Dutch falling from grace is something we knew happened anyway, so don't act like I've ruined the entire fate of a character for you.

I didn't know anything about Dutch when I started. I have finished the game, however if I hadn't, this would have spoiled part of the story for me.

I went into RDR2 completely blind.

 

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Dr.Rosenthal
Posted (edited)

He’s a narcissist driven by selfishness. Even when he claims to care about the people around him you can always tell that he’s got selfish reasons for his caring - when there’s nothing in it for him he loses interest and comes up with a bunch of ad hoc reasoning for it.

 

Often people like him make it through alive and well but they leave a trail of destruction behind them and as time passes by the outcomes of the choices they’ve made become more and more inescapable. And the people who used to support them is either dead, destroyed in one way or another or simply not around anymore.

 

Arthur’s view of civilization vs. the old west is more rooted in ”living off the land”/in peace with - and respect for - the nature around him (also the reason to why he sympathizes with the natives). Whereas Dutch wants all the luxury and modern life but he wants to take it all for free, or, rather, at the cost of the people around him. Some of you probably think that Dutch still did good things, he brought in Sadie, rescued some folk, and cared for all the people of the gang. Maybe you’re right and maybe he had a heart early on but lost it as time went by, but personally I’m increasingly tempted to think that every good deed he did he did for selfish means. Even helping others ”selflessly”, as that is the narcissist’s way of showing people ”look, I’m so good and unselfish”, to win over people’s hearts, only to later crush them without a second thought.

 

So my answer is it was inevitable for him, but the consequences for all the people around him could perhaps have been avoided. Arthur is already early on questioning some of the decisions that Dutch is making (revenge is a fool’s game), but since he sees so much of a father figure in Dutch he’s hesitant to listen to his own instincts, and starts realizing what’s what far too late.

Edited by Dr.Rosenthal

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Jimbatron
Posted (edited)

I’m of the same opinion @Dr.Rosenthal

 

There are plenty of Dutch’s around in modern day business. It may not be life or death stuff anymore, but people who use their charisma to get in a position of leadership - sway others into thinking they are cared about, but in reality it’s just a narcists ploy to cement their position of power which is really their goal.

 

Leaving Arthur and John to die are obvious pointers to his underlying nature, but there’s a subtler earlier sign than that - his blatant ignoring of girl friend Molly. He clearly liked the thought of having a younger woman on his arm, but once he had her as a trophy he showed little interest in her feelings. That’s important to consider because he is not under as much pressure at that point.

 

If you were being exceptionally kind you might say that Dutch may have started out convincing himself that he believed his own propaganda, but there is no doubt his leadership of the gang was more important to him than the gangs own well being.

Edited by Jimbatron

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feckyerlife
20 hours ago, Smokewood said:

You used the spoiler tag but then put the spoiled info right into the title.

 

To answer the thread:

He was never good to begin with so he never fell.....

He's a scam artist no different than Hosea who was also extremely flawed.

bingo. I remember Arthur calling Hosea the Con Man to Lenny when you go to Horseshoe from the Grizzles, but in actuality Dutch is the Con Man, he's the one with the charisma and charm to be one. 

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just do it bob1

If maybe Dutch had some God Damn Faith, probably it would have been avoided.

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