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Lord-Sam

Varmit rifle should be a 2 hit headshot kill instead.

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Reyvar
1 hour ago, Gray-Hand said:

If you think that, then you haven’t read the thread.  Auto-aim is the cornerstone of RDR combat and it isn’t going anywhere.  

The problem is with the Varmint rifle because it isn’t simply probably the most effective gun for most playstyles, it is by far the best gun to use in 95% of situations - the only exceptions being extreme long range where only sniper rifles are practical and at point blank range, where shotguns take over. 

 

Take out the varmint rifle, and suddenly the conversation about the best gun opens up to include the Lancaster, the Bolt Action, some of the shotguns, and some of the hand guns depending on factors like range and run and gun versus camping play styles. Right now the discussion starts and ends with the varmint rifle.  And that is bad for gameplay.

 

And if nothing else, it’s just stupid because regardless of the argument as to whether a .22  bullet to the head would be enough to kill someone in real life (of course it would, don’t be a dumbass), .22 caliber guns have never been the go to weapon for killing humans.  No army ever equipped their soldiers with .22 rifles.  They just aren’t more effective at killing humans than any of the other rifles in the game.

I'd say you haven't been reading the thread, as I've argued several times already that autoaim should not be removed, and trying to play without it is an exercise in futility.

 

My point is that it doesn't matter that the Varmint is "the best to use in 95% of situations". That's not the problem. The problem is that headshots are too easy to get, and too deadly. This leads to frustrating gameplay where people can snap aim headshot you in the literal blink of an eye without you even getting to react. That's not good gameplay.

 

Simply removing the Varmint as a viable option would still result in the same problem, that snap aiming would just take a tenth of a second longer as people wait for the spread circle to shrink.

 

There are only two options for fixing the problem - make headshots harder to get (removing autoaim.. not going to happen), or make headshots not instantly deadly for most weapons (not just the Varmint).

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IamCourtney

Ability cards already offer several ways to negate headshot instakills and/or make them harder to land, maybe the solution is to just give time for these to proliferate more widely as people rank up?

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Qbert
24 minutes ago, IamCourtney said:

Ability cards already offer several ways to negate headshot instakills and/or make them harder to land, maybe the solution is to just give time for these to proliferate more widely as people rank up?

Rank has nothing to with the VR though, the cards don't diminish the problem with the weapon in general. Just rework the aim reticle and call it a day no 0 to 100 have it the speed of say the bolt problem solved your welcome R*

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•—•

Only the reticule shrink / accuracy needs changing. So it takes longer to guarantee headshot. Not instantly.

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TCA
Posted (edited)
On 1/2/2019 at 1:54 PM, coach_wargo said:

The varmit rifle is never getting nerfed because the the gun stats for SP and online are the same, and they're not going to adjust the stats for the base game. 

 

The gun unlocks at such a low rank that most everyone should be on equal footing. Just because you may not like using the .22, or you think it's a cheap kill, doesn't mean that the person you're facing should play by the same rules. 

Then explain the nerf to the AP Pistol dmg on GTA Online? Simply saying they won’t is kinda like pissing in the wind. If one weapon can’t kill a fox, coyote by headshot it shouldn’t be able to any players with max health and or fortified cores and bars, period.

Edited by TCA
Misspelling.

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Happy Hunter
5 hours ago, Gray-Hand said:

.22 caliber guns have never been the go to weapon for killing humans.

Assassins use them a lot. I don't know why people are trying to make a realism-based case on why the Varmint Rifle should be weaker - it makes no sense, and besides, realism isn't everything anyway.

 

I'm still okay with how it is. It's not perfect, but I'll take not perfect over the mess that starting changing things will almost definitely make. GTA after nerfs and complaints is a flying bike-infested sh*t-show. This probably would be too. That's before even considering the possible effects on hunting, which have a good job of happening regardless of whether pro-nerf people aren't asking for that.

 

More people need to use slow and steady.

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Revoemag
Posted (edited)

Gotta love this community.. so many desperate attempts to justify that broken gun...

 

Simple solution without hurting hunting is to remove the headshot modifier...headshots on players would be the same damage as a body shot..

 

 

Edited by Revoemag

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Stretch188
5 hours ago, Gray-Hand said:

 .22 caliber guns have never been the go to weapon for killing humans. No army ever equipped their soldiers with .22 rifles.

 

Of course not. Because humans cant auto aim and achieve insta head shots.

 

It is extremely difficult to hit someone with a gun in a real combat situation. So humans are taught to aim for center mass. As a result, the damage a gun does and caliber of bullet actually matters.

 

In RDR...not so much.

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ALifeOfMisery
28 minutes ago, Happy Hunter said:

Assassins use them a lot. I don't know why people are trying to make a realism-based case on why the Varmint Rifle should be weaker - it makes no sense, and besides, realism isn't everything anyway.

 

I'm still okay with how it is. It's not perfect, but I'll take not perfect over the mess that starting changing things will almost definitely make. GTA after nerfs and complaints is a flying bike-infested sh*t-show. This probably would be too. That's before even considering the possible effects on hunting, which have a good job of happening regardless of whether pro-nerf people aren't asking for that.

 

More people need to use slow and steady.

I just want to clarify, I don't really have an issue with the headshot is king PvP in the game, or the effectiveness of any one gun in a PvP environment.

 

I find it hard to believe that R* intended for a .22 rifle to be the most effective PvP weapon in the game, but, after spending 5 years of not giving a sh*t about R*s intentions, I'm not about to start now.

 

If anything I'd want a slight rebalancing of how weapons work against animals, because I do find some instances laughable.

 

All in all though, R*s history of how effective their in game nerfs are is woeful, so if faced with a choice between things remaining as they are versus the inevitable unintended side effects of R* nerfs, I'd choose for the current situation to remain.

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rusbeckia
6 hours ago, Revoemag said:

Gotta love this community.. so many desperate attempts to justify that broken gun...

 

Simple solution without hurting hunting is to remove the headshot modifier...headshots on players would be the same damage as a body shot..

 

 

This just doesn‘t make any sense.

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Revoemag
43 minutes ago, rusbeckia said:

This just doesn‘t make any sense.

Please elaborate oh wise one...

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rusbeckia
3 minutes ago, Revoemag said:

Please elaborate oh wise one...

It wouldn‘t make sense to remove the headshot modifier. If you get shot to the head, even with .22, you‘re done. Period. 

 

Just kill them first, or elaborate a strategy against varmint griefers. 

Can‘t be that weapons get nerfed just because half of the community is butthurt cause some noobs headshot them with a varmint.

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Jason
10 hours ago, Ektope said:

Only the reticule shrink / accuracy needs changing. So it takes longer to guarantee headshot. Not instantly.

Problem with this is that it hurts it in PvE, which is why people want it's headshot damage nerfed instead.

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Dr.Rosenthal
Posted (edited)

I wouldn’t mind if they nerfed the headshot modifier. Sure, a .22 bullet is lethal IRL - but, this is a game, and as it stands the Varmint Rifle is supposed to be the least powerful weapon. It might not be realistic, but it’s a game. 

 

If it was realistic, would we survive a dynamite explosion 15 feet from us? Or having a Molotov break over our head? What really matters is balance and approximations with reality. You can’t shoot a bison with a .22 and you don’t shoot frogs with .308.

 

Anyway; if they’d nerf it they’d have to nerf it pretty much because you can still cram two of these shots into someone’s head before they have time to say ”Lancaster”.



They gotta be able to nerf it for human headshots but buff it for, say, foxes, right?

That said, I maintain that it’s actually pretty fair that the best weapon for PvP is cheap, has lower ammo and has no rank requirement.
 

Edited by Dr.Rosenthal

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Fugitive21

I guess a lot of people here never shot a .22 rifle. No way in hell will a .22 head shot kill anybody 75++ yards out...pfft I would even go to 50 yards out. 

1 hour ago, rusbeckia said:

It wouldn‘t make sense to remove the headshot modifier. If you get shot to the head, even with .22, you‘re done. Period. 

 

Just kill them first, or elaborate a strategy against varmint griefers. 

Can‘t be that weapons get nerfed just because half of the community is butthurt cause some noobs headshot them with a varmint.

I can name 5 people that have gotten head shot buy a .22 and are still alive. Gangbangers but still alive and one still has fragments in his brain and still alive.

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rusbeckia
10 minutes ago, Fugitive21 said:

I guess a lot of people here never shot a .22 rifle. No way in hell will a .22 head shot kill anybody 75++ yards out...pfft I would even go to 50 yards out. 

I can name 5 people that have gotten head shot buy a .22 and are still alive. Gangbangers but still alive and one still has fragments in his brain and still alive.

Let me guess, all five of them got any form of first aid? 

What‘ya think how that kind of injury would impact one about 120 years ago?

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Fugitive21
2 minutes ago, rusbeckia said:

Let me guess, all five of them got any form of first aid? 

What‘ya think how that kind of injury would impact one about 120 years ago?

ehhhh.....still no .22 is going to headshot anybody in real life 75+++ yards out. That bullet will tumble and spin away from the original target.

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coach_wargo
28 minutes ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

I maintain that it’s actually pretty fair that the best weapon for PvP is cheap, has lower ammo and has no rank requirement.

 

 

I agree with this 100%. I don't like that the varmit is the best PvP weapon, but it does put everyone on a level playing field.  

 

Until they add free aim lobbies I have no incentive to purchase a more powerful weapon, since it's so easy to get headshots with the auto aim flick. 

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IKilledMyHorseAgain

what are yall talking about?? This is the most balanced PVP you will ever play. Everyone has the same gun!!  IM kidding of course, while i find it silly i dont see an all around solution. Maybe just a PVP modifier for it but they obviously cant touch it for PVE as it would be off with their heads if they did.

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•—•

If people actually used slow and steady, varmint would be rendered more useless.

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Cardiac

I don't get why everyone bitch so f*cking much about this rifle. Not like it's giving anyone an unfair advantage. Everyone can get it, it's super cheap and low rank req. Quit your bitching. I kill people every day who uses Varmit Rifle while I use any other weapon. I also like using it from time to time. It's a high risk, high reward kind of weapon. Either get a in first or second shot or you're most likely f*cked if you're fighting against someone using a Bolt Action considering bolt action kills in 2 body shots above the chest. Varmit rifle takes like, 10. 

 

Quit using Varmit Rifle as a bad excuse for getting owned in PvP and go work on your aiming.

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Stretch188
14 hours ago, Reyvar said:

There are only two options for fixing the problem - make headshots harder to get (removing autoaim.. not going to happen), or make headshots not instantly deadly for most weapons (not just the Varmint).

Reyvar: "Its too hard to hit moving targets in this game, unrealistic. I could empty 100 rounds into the sky and not hit a flying bird."

 

2 things - sounds like you're a terrible shot - that doesnt mean the game 'doesn't work' in free aim. Also - if you're speaking of realism, the most commonly used guns to hit birds in flight is a shotgun, for this exact reason - its hard to shoot a bird in flight!

 

Also, as I pointed out earlier and you conveniently ignored, its extremely difficult to hit a moving target in a real combat situation - trained gun specialists hit about 1/4 shots in combat, it has been proven that a soldiers accuracy is reduced from anywhere from 20 times to 30 times in combat compared to the range, and lastly, the low end of estimates but the rounds fired per kill in the Vietnam war at around 20k.

 

Also Reyvar: My solution to the varmint rifle, and combat in general? Make headshots not 1 shot kills.

 

So you won't play FA because its too hard for you to hit a moving target, which makes it 'unrealistic' for you. So youre solution is...to make headshots non-lethal? For most guns?

 

Stop pretending you are interested in realism. Its clearly bullsh*t.

 

***

 

Now, as for coming up with a plausible solution for how to reduce the effectiveness of the varmint rifle in AA, many of you seem to have accidentally stumbled upon the solution.

Coyotes have some of the tiniest brains among mammals, and the reason why alot of you are headshotting them and they are shrugging it off, is because headshots aren't lethal - brain shots are. Humans on the other hand, have big brains, and almost our entire skull is full of brain matter. This creates the appearance of coyotes being more resistant to headshots than humans, when its really just people...missing.

 

I could be wrong, and show me video evidence if you think I am (go into dead eye before shooting the coyote, hit the red area in their head). This is the same reason why I can kill a bison with one shot with my bolt-action but plenty of others can't - their head isn't the area that allows for insta kills, its their brain (and they have tiny brains too, especially in relation to the size of their head!)

 

Like I said earlier, reducing the size of the critical areas while using the varmint would effectively make it a much less useful weapon, and removes the potential problems that a nerf or giving everyone in the game an adamantium skull (lol!) would.

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Smokewood
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Fugitive21 said:

ehhhh.....still no .22 is going to headshot anybody in real life 75+++ yards out. That bullet will tumble and spin away from the original target.

Nonsense. .22 long rifles are some of the most accurate rifles you can buy.

The problem is the damage modifiers...  

 

I think the best way to get rid of the .22 in PvP is make it only hold 1 shot, and make the reload time longer.

Edited by Smokewood

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Clancy the Bandito

Just remove it from pvp game modes and everything will be fine.

 

or just nerf it to where it takes at least 3 headshots to other players, while not f*cking it up for hunting. Then people just wouldn't bother with it.

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DarksunDaFirst

It's accuracy over range needs to be nerfed when targeting players.  

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Callahan44
8 minutes ago, Vitalize said:

Just remove it from pvp game modes and everything will be fine.

 

or just nerf it to where it takes at least 3 headshots to other players, while not f*cking it up for hunting. Then people just wouldn't bother with it.

Variety of weapons is so limited that they really shouldnt remove anything.  All it needs is a nerf.

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DarksunDaFirst
4 minutes ago, Callahan44 said:

Variety of weapons is so limited that they really shouldnt remove anything.  All it needs is a nerf.

I think they'll be upping the amount of weapons in the game as time goes on.  GTA V had a good amount of weapons to start, but only about 1/3 (guesstimate) of what is in the game now is what was originally there.  I'm guessing some will be more specialized and/or novelty.  Still don't think we'll get the same variety though.  

I'm hoping my LeMat makes a comeback sooner rather than later.  That was my favorite gun from the first Redemption.

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Callahan44
6 minutes ago, DarksunDaFirst said:

I think they'll be upping the amount of weapons in the game as time goes on.  GTA V had a good amount of weapons to start, but only about 1/3 (guesstimate) of what is in the game now is what was originally there.  I'm guessing some will be more specialized and/or novelty.  Still don't think we'll get the same variety though.  

I'm hoping my LeMat makes a comeback sooner rather than later.  That was my favorite gun from the first Redemption.

Still,theres no need for restrictions. Imo they should nerf it into the ground,but it would be fun to have a trollweapon. Would be definetely my weapon of choice to kill hogtied players or badly injured players.

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Reyvar
4 hours ago, Stretch188 said:

Reyvar: "Its too hard to hit moving targets in this game, unrealistic. I could empty 100 rounds into the sky and not hit a flying bird."

 

2 things - sounds like you're a terrible shot - that doesnt mean the game 'doesn't work' in free aim. Also - if you're speaking of realism, the most commonly used guns to hit birds in flight is a shotgun, for this exact reason - its hard to shoot a bird in flight!

 

Also, as I pointed out earlier and you conveniently ignored, its extremely difficult to hit a moving target in a real combat situation - trained gun specialists hit about 1/4 shots in combat, it has been proven that a soldiers accuracy is reduced from anywhere from 20 times to 30 times in combat compared to the range, and lastly, the low end of estimates but the rounds fired per kill in the Vietnam war at around 20k.

 

Also Reyvar: My solution to the varmint rifle, and combat in general? Make headshots not 1 shot kills.

 

So you won't play FA because its too hard for you to hit a moving target, which makes it 'unrealistic' for you. So youre solution is...to make headshots non-lethal? For most guns?

 

Stop pretending you are interested in realism. Its clearly bullsh*t.

 

***

 

Now, as for coming up with a plausible solution for how to reduce the effectiveness of the varmint rifle in AA, many of you seem to have accidentally stumbled upon the solution.

Coyotes have some of the tiniest brains among mammals, and the reason why alot of you are headshotting them and they are shrugging it off, is because headshots aren't lethal - brain shots are. Humans on the other hand, have big brains, and almost our entire skull is full of brain matter. This creates the appearance of coyotes being more resistant to headshots than humans, when its really just people...missing.

 

I could be wrong, and show me video evidence if you think I am (go into dead eye before shooting the coyote, hit the red area in their head). This is the same reason why I can kill a bison with one shot with my bolt-action but plenty of others can't - their head isn't the area that allows for insta kills, its their brain (and they have tiny brains too, especially in relation to the size of their head!)

 

Like I said earlier, reducing the size of the critical areas while using the varmint would effectively make it a much less useful weapon, and removes the potential problems that a nerf or giving everyone in the game an adamantium skull (lol!) would.

Who said I'm interested in realism? I'm interested in good gameplay.

 

Playing without autoaim is a frustrating mess because it's almost impossible to accurately aim due to the limitations of the controls. I'd have an easier time pulling off almost any given shot in real life, and I haven't shot a gun in 15 years. Even the bows would be easier IRL, and despite recent use I'm terrible with a traditional wood bow.

 

Playing with autoaim and instakill headshots is a frustrating mess because more often than not you go down before you ever get a chance to react, or even know you've been seen. That's "realistic", but not fun to play. It leads to people using only the most accurate and fastest shooting weapons to get off the quickest possible instantly lethal shot.

 

So yes, the only solution I see is the one most shooters go with. Autoaim assistance with only a minor headshot multiplier rather than instantly lethal headshots.

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Qbert

Still a giant topic going around over a simple solution.....

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