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Lord-Sam

Varmit rifle should be a 2 hit headshot kill instead.

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Jason
11 minutes ago, Reyvar said:

Most of the other guns have similar accuracy. They just take a little longer to reach that point. Revolvers for exampe are far MORE accurate, if you aren't moving they reach pinpoint accuracy.

 

Making the .22 have a larger shot spread at maximum accuracy would again only pass the problem on to the next best gun, not solve it.

Yea most other guns (pretty much all really) have similar accuracy, but they all have a little setting period which the varmint doesn't have, meaning you can headshot flick from a lock on instantly. There's always gonna be a best gun, the trick to balancing is keeping the rest of them not too far behind, which isn't the case right now.

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Stretch188

I honestly don't know why I bother engaging in these discussions.

 

*Makes post using analogies, statistical evidence to support the analogies, and provides multiple solutions on how to effectively combat the decrease in accuracy in FA.

 

*person stops responding or just ignores me lol.

 

This mindset is what cripples gameplay, like NBA 2k for example - 3 point shooting has become so overpowered that its ruined the game, because kids rage out if they miss an open 3 pointer with someone who's a good shooter. Despite the evidence that even good shooters miss open shots occasionally (ex: Klay Thompson generally considered one of the top 3 at worst 3 point shooters of all-time, is in a season long slump, shooting 10% lower than his career average. This is part of basketball.) But that would be too 'hard', and everyone needs instant gratification. So 3 point shooting has been boosted to the point that every player shoots every game like they are Steph Curry on the hottest shooting night of his career.

 

So FA is considered 'unplayable' because most players have the expectation that they should hit over 90% of their shots, at a full sprint, while taking fire, using guns that are over 100 years old. This is how you end up with (frankly) ridiculous, contrived ideas like nerfing headshots, creating a cascading effect, changes after changes, until the once awesome gameplay is barely recognizeable.

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Smokewood
7 minutes ago, Stretch188 said:

I honestly don't know why I bother engaging in these discussions.

 

*Makes post using analogies, statistical evidence to support the analogies, and provides multiple solutions on how to effectively combat the decrease in accuracy in FA.

 

*person stops responding or just ignores me lol.

 

This mindset is what cripples gameplay, like NBA 2k for example - 3 point shooting has become so overpowered that its ruined the game, because kids rage out if they miss an open 3 pointer with someone who's a good shooter. Despite the evidence that even good shooters miss open shots occasionally (ex: Klay Thompson generally considered one of the top 3 at worst 3 point shooters of all-time, is in a season long slump, shooting 10% lower than his career average. This is part of basketball.) But that would be too 'hard', and everyone needs instant gratification. So 3 point shooting has been boosted to the point that every player shoots every game like they are Steph Curry on the hottest shooting night of his career.

 

So FA is considered 'unplayable' because most players have the expectation that they should hit over 90% of their shots, at a full sprint, while taking fire, using guns that are over 100 years old. This is how you end up with (frankly) ridiculous, contrived ideas like nerfing headshots, creating a cascading effect, changes after changes, until the once awesome gameplay is barely recognizeable.

Agree 100%

While moving (on horseback or not) your accuracy should drop down to like 25% at best.

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Reyvar
3 minutes ago, Stretch188 said:

I honestly don't know why I bother engaging in these discussions.

 

*Makes post using analogies, statistical evidence to support the analogies, and provides multiple solutions on how to effectively combat the decrease in accuracy in FA.

 

*person stops responding or just ignores me lol.

 

This mindset is what cripples gameplay, like NBA 2k for example - 3 point shooting has become so overpowered that its ruined the game, because kids rage out if they miss an open 3 pointer with someone who's a good shooter. Despite the evidence that even good shooters miss open shots occasionally (ex: Klay Thompson generally considered one of the top 3 at worst 3 point shooters of all-time, is in a season long slump, shooting 10% lower than his career average. This is part of basketball.) But that would be too 'hard', and everyone needs instant gratification. So 3 point shooting has been boosted to the point that every player shoots every game like they are Steph Curry on the hottest shooting night of his career.

 

So FA is considered 'unplayable' because most players have the expectation that they should hit over 90% of their shots, at a full sprint, while taking fire, using guns that are over 100 years old. This is how you end up with (frankly) ridiculous, contrived ideas like nerfing headshots, creating a cascading effect, changes after changes, until the once awesome gameplay is barely recognizeable.

I could empty all 100 rounds on my character into the sky and have approximately a 0% chance of hitting a bird in flight. In single player I could empty all 300 rounds and still have a 0% chance. The same goes for someone in horseback. It's easier to try to predict where they will run and point my gun at that spot then wait for them than it is to point my gun at them and track or fire at them.

 

Autoaim is there because it needs to be there. Hitting a guy popping out from cover while I'm behind cover isn't hard, but hitting something in motion is significantly harder than it would be in real life because the controller doesn't allow for proper fine motion control in any reasonable timeframe.

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coach_wargo

The varmit rifle is never getting nerfed because the the gun stats for SP and online are the same, and they're not going to adjust the stats for the base game. 

 

The gun unlocks at such a low rank that most everyone should be on equal footing. Just because you may not like using the .22, or you think it's a cheap kill, doesn't mean that the person you're facing should play by the same rules. 

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Callahan44
1 minute ago, coach_wargo said:

The varmit rifle is never getting nerfed because the the gun stats for SP and online are the same, and they're not going to adjust the stats for the base game. 

 

The gun unlocks at such a low rank that most everyone should be on equal footing. Just because you may not like using the .22, or you think it's a cheap kill, doesn't mean that the person you're facing should play by the same rules. 

Its the same problem in sp,i dont see why they shouldnt change it there as well.

You can get the bolt action early as well,which is a good pvp gun as well. Theres 0 problem with nerfing the varmint into the ground. Imo it should be good for hunting and trolling,but it shouldnt be a good choice for pvp against bolt actions,repeaters and revolvers.

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IamCourtney

Some wanna play in a way where hitting a moving target is considerably easier than it is in reality, others wanna play in a way where it's a bit harder. Qualitative comparison of the two is pointless and baseless; it's all subjective. Surely a reasonable person on either side of the preference line can agree that the two modes ought to be separated in the interest of fairness. 

 

As to how this pertains to the Varmint rifle... hard for me to say. As much as I want Free Aim sessions I agree that balance considerations should probably consider Auto Aim first as this is the way the majority plays. I wouldn't want a Varmint nerf to affect how effective it is at small game hunting, where the quick and accurate followups are often necessary to hit fleeing bunnies or flying birdies. I suspect the best course might be the way they balanced bodyshots with GTAO's heavy sniper: the first hit leaves a sliver of health and a followup with pretty much any weapon gets the kill. It wouldn't seem unreasonable to me if Varmint headshots worked the same way.

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These guys

Just remove custom weapon set ups from multiplayer. Making people spawn with the basics might actually make the pick ups on the map worthwhile.

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Sam Doe

I don't use the Varmint rifle because I do not like ridiculous guns, i.e. : shooting a .22 caliber bullet which could barely kill a big rat.

 

I also think it needs to be nerfed asap because I'd love some explanation from R* as to why a hunting small caliber rifle has the best target acquisition time of all rifle. Oh yeah, because the smaller the caliber, the easier to aim with? Thank you for your logic R*.

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Qbert

The problem and reason why everyone uses the varmint is because the aim reticle goes from 0 to 100% in like a nano second. That 100% assures well 100% accuracy fine when hunting rabbits and such that move fast but they like many games didn't think it through for the pvp experience. Simply tweak the reticle so it don't get to 100% accuracy basically the second you aim it and it becomes just another gun. 

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Dr.Rosenthal
Posted (edited)

I've been waiting on R* to nerf the Varmint, but some of you guys bring up pretty good points. A .22 would most definitely be lethal on any combat distance that we're likely to be in in RDO. And for longer ranges, no one uses a Varmint anyway, do they? Imo it's really a medium range kind of weapon.

 

In a way, it's good that it's cheap and has no rank requirement as then everyone should be on equal footing. Besides, I really don't think the Varmint is always the best. Close up the shotguns will always be preferable, so it becomes a question of using the range to your advantage. Also, when I'm out of ammo for the Varmint I switch to either the Lancaster or the Bolt Action rifle, and I usually have very good results with those as well. Though, the Varmint is probably a tiny bit more of a safe bet (owing mainly to its precision and quick reload).

 

🤷‍♂️

Edited by Dr.Rosenthal

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ALifeOfMisery
4 hours ago, Jason said:

Have the people who find the idea of nerfing the varmint silly in RDO not played PvP?

I hardly PvP at all, but still think something needs changing with regards to the Varmint rifle.

 

I mostly just find it laughable that I can headshot a fox from 10 paces using the Varmint and the fox will laugh it off but if I L2, flick, R2 another player at max lock on range they go down like a sack of sh*t.

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Sam Doe

And as for the terminal ballistics of .22 caliber, it is far from a guaranteed death IRL. In fact humans have a very strong head and head bones (Ask Obie Trice if he knows anything about it maybe or dozens of others who still have bullet fragments lodged in their skull) Which results in a very low death rate for .22 caliber bullet wounds even when it touches the head, and I am talking about modern .22 ammo (from brass to powder).

 

Thus the terminal ballistics of a 1898 .22 caliber bullet should not allow one shot kill headshot from any distance, apart from maybe less than 15 yards 

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ThaBirdCoot
31 minutes ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

the fox will laugh it off but if I L2, flick, R2 another player at max lock on range they go down like a sack of sh*t.

:D this made me giggle a bit, so true though

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Gray-Hand
3 hours ago, DrKrankenstein said:

make the varmint single shot, with a longer reload( 1 second). it won't be as prevelant in pvp like that.

No.  The varmint rifle is meant to be able to shoot down a small flock of birds on the wing.  Making it single shot would destroy that.

 

This talk about removing auto aim is pointless.  RDR2 is an auto-aim game.  The combat system is designed around it.  Auto-aim will never be removed.

Nerfing the headshot capability of the varmint rifle can definitely be done though - it already takes several headshots with a varmint rifle to bring down anything as big as or larger than a fox.  They should just make it have the same effect on humans.

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Riznind
Posted (edited)

In free aim lobbies nobody would use the varmint rifle in showdown series😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Riznind

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Accendo

If they did this then it would immediately become the worst weapon for PvP. 

What you're suggesting doesn't actually solve the problem like you think it does. All of the weapons would need to be adjusted for headshots according to weapon damage for anything beyond rate of fire to matter in PvP.

Even then, the only weapon you'd see in PvP would be whatever weapon has the highest rate of fire and can still kill in one headshot because headshots are ridiculously easy to get with the current auto-aim mechanics.

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Gray-Hand
1 minute ago, Accendo said:

If they did this then it would immediately become the worst weapon for PvP. 

What you're suggesting doesn't actually solve the problem like you think it does. All of the weapons would need to be adjusted for headshots according to weapon damage for anything beyond rate of fire to matter in PvP.

Even then, the only weapon you'd see in PvP would be whatever weapon has the highest rate of fire and can still kill in one headshot because headshots are ridiculously easy to get with the current auto-aim mechanics.

Nah - accuracy would be just as important.

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coach_wargo
2 hours ago, These guys said:

Just remove custom weapon set ups from multiplayer. Making people spawn with the basics might actually make the pick ups on the map worthwhile.

I never go for the pick-ups since you lose them when you die. I don't think I've ever played a game where I've had that happen before. 

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Gray-Hand
Posted (edited)

Double post.

Edited by Gray-Hand

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Stretch188
3 hours ago, IamCourtney said:

Some wanna play in a way where hitting a moving target is considerably easier than it is in reality, others wanna play in a way where it's a bit harder. Qualitative comparison of the two is pointless and baseless; it's all subjective. Surely a reasonable person on either side of the preference line can agree that the two modes ought to be separated in the interest of fairness. 

 

As to how this pertains to the Varmint rifle... hard for me to say. As much as I want Free Aim sessions I agree that balance considerations should probably consider Auto Aim first as this is the way the majority plays. I wouldn't want a Varmint nerf to affect how effective it is at small game hunting, where the quick and accurate followups are often necessary to hit fleeing bunnies or flying birdies. I suspect the best course might be the way they balanced bodyshots with GTAO's heavy sniper: the first hit leaves a sliver of health and a followup with pretty much any weapon gets the kill. It wouldn't seem unreasonable to me if Varmint headshots worked the same way.

What a refreshingly smart, logically sound post. If i knew how to do the clapping emoji i would lol

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Happy Hunter

Maybe they should buff it just to see people's reactions.

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IamCourtney

For only 100 Gold bars, you too can be Best in the West with the new Explosive Varmint Rifle! For only 50 bars extra you can unlock the Explosive Varmint Ammo pamphlet, craftable at a gallop in one batch and since the rounds are so small, only one unit of animal fat is required to create 100 bullets! :D

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Semaj 2JZ♢
2 hours ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

I hardly PvP at all, but still think something needs changing with regards to the Varmint rifle.

 

I mostly just find it laughable that I can headshot a fox from 10 paces using the Varmint and the fox will laugh it off but if I L2, flick, R2 another player at max lock on range they go down like a sack of sh*t.

Unfortunately, it's not just the varmint rifle that should kill more animals with headshots, but doesn't, so your point on that is moot.

 

The way R* designed the effectiveness of their guns on the animals is absurd. But, I can see why they did it for a more authentic experience. It's a far better design against human targets.

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Reyvar
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Accendo said:

If they did this then it would immediately become the worst weapon for PvP. 

What you're suggesting doesn't actually solve the problem like you think it does. All of the weapons would need to be adjusted for headshots according to weapon damage for anything beyond rate of fire to matter in PvP.

Even then, the only weapon you'd see in PvP would be whatever weapon has the highest rate of fire and can still kill in one headshot because headshots are ridiculously easy to get with the current auto-aim mechanics.

This. The problem is the instakill from headshots combined with the ease of getting them from autoaim. The .22 happens to be very good at that, but even if it were removed the problem would not diminish in the slightest, instead we'd just see another gun take its place.

 

Yes, the .22 aims very quickly.. but it wouldn't really matter if guns took .1 nanoseconds or 60 minutes to aim. What matters is who aims first, and how accurately they aim. The autoaim makes accuracy far less important skill-wise, which means who aims first is about all that matters.. THAT is the issue people have.. not the Varmint.

 

Edited by Reyvar

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Gray-Hand
9 minutes ago, Reyvar said:

This. The problem is the instakill from headshots combined with the ease of getting them from autoaim. The .22 happens to be very good at that, but even if it were removed the problem would not diminish in the slightest, instead we'd just see another gun take its place.

 

Yes, the .22 aims very quickly.. but it wouldn't really matter if it takes .1 nanoseconds or 60 minutes to aim. What matters is who aims first, and how accurately they aim. The autoaim makes accuracy far less important skill-wise, which means who aims first is about all that matters.. THAT is the issue people have.. not the Varmint.

 

If you think that, then you haven’t read the thread.  Auto-aim is the cornerstone of RDR combat and it isn’t going anywhere.  

The problem is with the Varmint rifle because it isn’t simply probably the most effective gun for most playstyles, it is by far the best gun to use in 95% of situations - the only exceptions being extreme long range where only sniper rifles are practical and at point blank range, where shotguns take over. 

 

Take out the varmint rifle, and suddenly the conversation about the best gun opens up to include the Lancaster, the Bolt Action, some of the shotguns, and some of the hand guns depending on factors like range and run and gun versus camping play styles. Right now the discussion starts and ends with the varmint rifle.  And that is bad for gameplay.

 

And if nothing else, it’s just stupid because regardless of the argument as to whether a .22  bullet to the head would be enough to kill someone in real life (of course it would, don’t be a dumbass), .22 caliber guns have never been the go to weapon for killing humans.  No army ever equipped their soldiers with .22 rifles.  They just aren’t more effective at killing humans than any of the other rifles in the game.

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StuntCurry707

sh*t with these I can survive 5 headshots ability cards and these chewing tobacco and snake oil addicts running around, I’d like a dual wielding mk2 version tbh. I’d name the left one bike and the right one flying

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DrKrankenstein
3 hours ago, Gray-Hand said:

No.  The varmint rifle is meant to be able to shoot down a small flock of birds on the wing.  Making it single shot would destroy that.

 

This talk about removing auto aim is pointless.  RDR2 is an auto-aim game.  The combat system is designed around it.  Auto-aim will never be removed.

Nerfing the headshot capability of the varmint rifle can definitely be done though - it already takes several headshots with a varmint rifle to bring down anything as big as or larger than a fox.  They should just make it have the same effect on humans.

don't get me wrong i don't think theres anything wrong with the gun ingame. it's just overused and pretty easy to get used to. it unlocks at low rank, wich is good. in my oppinion its big fuss  about nothing. .22 not strong enough to kill? some .22 guns of that era could've easily kill a man. these are not bb shooters what we have today. the old ones had power. i prefer the bolt action or lancaster anyway.

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miahus

Easiest solution imo is to have the varmint rifle not give any xp at all for pvp kills. 

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Callahan44
2 minutes ago, miahus said:

Easiest solution imo is to have the varmint rifle not give any xp at all for pvp kills. 

Also the biggest "wtf,why" solution. 

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