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Grotti Vigilante

Dutch van der Linde vs Hosea Matthews? [POSSIBLE SPOILERS!]

Which character as a whole did you prefer?  

57 members have voted

  1. 1. Which character as a whole did you prefer?

    • Dutch van der Linde
      14
    • Hosea Matthews
      43
  2. 2. Given the choice, who do you think would've been a better leader?

    • Dutch van der Linde
      2
    • Hosea Matthews
      39
    • Both as Co-Leaders
      16


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Grotti Vigilante

So everyone whose played Red Dead Redemption II no doubt knows about the Van der Linde Gang and it's members, most notably Arthur Morgan, John Marston and it's namesake leader, Dutch van der Linde. But in the respective game we know that Dutch van der Linde wasn't the only high senior figure of the gang. We also know about Hosea Matthews who often served as consultation for Dutch with plans and is perhaps regarded as second only to Dutch himself. Such was his importance that some argue his death lead to Dutch going off the rails, though it is up for a debate since Dutch was losing it for a while at that point. But regardless, which senior gang figure of the two did you prefer, and who do you think would've been a better gang leader in a hypothetical scenario that you had the choice?

 

Me personally? As a character I think I leaned towards Hosea. There's something about him that just makes him likable, be it his wisdom, charm, or ability to challenge Dutch without issue (mostly). He seemed more reasonable than Dutch as well, and he didn't seem to have such a large ego like Dutch that he thought himself above question and deserved unquestioned loyalty and blind (god damn) faith. As a better leader though? Well, I kind of think it's a Yin and Yang thing. Dutch had the charisma to gather and rally a group of people to his cause, while Hosea was more pragmatic and has the wisdom for guidance and planning. I'd say I'd prefer them as co-leaders to be honest based on that alone. I don't think one man should have all the power in this case. But what do you think? Leave your thoughts down below.

Edited by Grotti Vigilante

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The FoolYT

I think Dutch would be a great boss and Hosea a great Consigliere and that was the case but then Dutch refused to take Hosea's advice which kinda led to the downfall. 

 

Basically Dutch = High Charisma

Hosea = High Wisdom

 

So i guess my vote would kinda be like two co leaders in a way

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Cutter De Blanc

I like Hosea, but he's not a leader. 

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Gtaman_92

My vote goes to them working as co-leaders.

 

Dutches charm is needed to earn the gang members trust while Hoseas wisdom and guidance is what’s needed to keep them going in the right direction without falling apart.

 

 

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UncleTacitus

Dutch was more charismatic and a natural leader type, but TBH Hosea was much wiser and had a cooler head on his shoulders. I think because of Dutch they took more risks and made more money, but that's what eventually destroyed the gang too. Hosea would have kept them alive longer, but I'm not sure they would have had much to show for. Also, Hosea was probably suffering from a terminal disease, so there is that...

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crybaby17h16

dutch in the end of the game walks away without even looking  back at the money in that cabin, like a red dead revolver, it was never about the money.

 

he was a man living in his own world, until he faced stress and doubt in time when he needed loyalty and faith..

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FreeMaxB585

Dutch was a terrible leader. He ruined everything. Hosea and Arthur had that really good real estate scam about to happen and instead Dutch decided to go with Micahs idea for the blackwater robbery. And even after all Arthur and John had done for him, when Dutch learned Micah was the rat he still chose to go against John and Arthur. None of Dutch's plans ever worked. Was mainly all failed robberies that led to the death of majority of the gang. Hosea could've maybe had them at least survive if nothing else

5 minutes ago, crybaby17h16 said:

dutch in the end of the game walks away without even looking  back at the money in that cabin, like a red dead revolver, it was never about the money.

 

he was a man living in his own world, until he faced stress and doubt in time when he needed loyalty and faith..

 

I disagree, he still always wanted the big money. I just think at that point he realized that he sided with the rat over the people who would've died for him. He realizes that he left John and Arthur to die multiple times for a scumbag, he realizes he could've maybe even helped Arthur out at the end, it was more of a "F IT". and then after that just lost his mind and was a wacko in rd1 but before all that he was def obsessed with getting $

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TheSantader25

Hosea all the way but Hosea isn't a leader so they should work together. Sometimes I wonder what Hosea would say if he saw Dutch do the things he did in Chapter 6. I think he could slap some sense into Dutch. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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Jimbatron

I always find these “prefer” threads or did you like the character things interesting.

 

Dutch is a great character and the returning actor does a superb job in his more expansive role.

 

But he’s not a likeable person - he’s shown to be very manipulative and uncaring. As a character from a plot development point of view though he’s absolutely brilliant. Depends on how you look at it.

 

Hosea is obviously a much more likeable guy and more benevolent. I enjoy the character and again he’s well acted but it’s hard to argue the character is as pivotal to the overall story as Dutch. The main plot device seems to be when he’s not around the gang loses some good advice which is replaced with a more malign influence.

 

Interesting that people say Hosea isn’t a leader - I would say more accurately he doesn’t want to be or isn’t trying to be. I think he could have made rather a good one - people like John and Arthur clearly listen to him, respected him, and I think would have followed a plan he set. You can’t see him keeping someone like Bill Williamson in line though.

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mde2
8 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

I disagree, he still always wanted the big money. I just think at that point he realized that he sided with the rat over the people who would've died for him. He realizes that he left John and Arthur to die multiple times for a scumbag, he realizes he could've maybe even helped Arthur out at the end, it was more of a "F IT". and then after that just lost his mind and was a wacko in rd1 but before all that he was def obsessed with getting $ 

If you've payed attention to Dutch and his deeper philosophies the reason he walks away ignoring both the money and Micah is because he released he was taking part in aiding the greed he was fighting so hard against and the hypocrisy of his actions + who he was siding with. The only reason he ever cared about money in the first place was because he needed it to get away from what he hated - civilization. The way I've interpreted "An American Inferno" (the in-game book, not mission) it's that it describes greed and how it snowballs into wanting more and more power and such and his entire philosophy is most likely based around this book given what John says to Evelyn Miller in the epilogue. This is what Dutch walked away from initially when Arthur and Micah were fighting, and it's what made him walk away from Micah second time around because Micah was just getting too greedy and power hungry - that and how money was tearing apart everything around him.

 

Dutch going "crazy" was because he realized that civilization was an inevitability, something you couldn't run away from hence why he wanted it to crash and burn which is why by RDR1 he becomes more of an anarchist. We also see this in the last chapter of RDR2 - he just wants more chaos and destruction to break the infrastructure of civilization (or, the Pinkertons as symbolized by the game). His entire monologue about his nature vs the nature of the world is based around this concept and I think that doesn't make Dutch inherently crazy - he's aware of his actions but he's just a classic R* sociopath and doesn't have the capacity to care about who he hurts, kills and what he destroys to accomplish his agenda. Following on from what I said before, the only reason he probably went back to Micah to work with him again was the only means he had of acquiring money to fund his goals.
 

At least that's how I interpreted it. None of it's concrete but Dutch is a very complex character and it's fun exploring his motivations and such.

Edited by mde2

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Nutduster
6 hours ago, Jimbatron said:

Interesting that people say Hosea isn’t a leader - I would say more accurately he doesn’t want to be or isn’t trying to be. I think he could have made rather a good one - people like John and Arthur clearly listen to him, respected him, and I think would have followed a plan he set. You can’t see him keeping someone like Bill Williamson in line though.

 

I think the best way to put it for me is that Hosea is an excellent mentor and father figure, but seems unsuited by temperament to lead a gang.  He's probably an introvert, actually - someone who can excel in close personal relationships but is uncomfortable standing in front of a group of people and telling them what to do.  Which would explain how he ended up having Dutch's ear for so long, and how he ends up helping Arthur in this game (not that this was necessarily intended by the writers, but from a literary analysis POV, it makes perfect sense that Hosea would reach out for a new student/son once he realizes his old one is losing his way; Hosea likes that relationship, but he also only needs one of them to sustain himself).

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FreeMaxB585
13 hours ago, mde2 said:

If you've payed attention to Dutch and his deeper philosophies the reason he walks away ignoring both the money and Micah is because he released he was taking part in aiding the greed he was fighting so hard against and the hypocrisy of his actions + who he was siding with. The only reason he ever cared about money in the first place was because he needed it to get away from what he hated - civilization. The way I've interpreted "An American Inferno" (the in-game book, not mission) it's that it describes greed and how it snowballs into wanting more and more power and such and his entire philosophy is most likely based around this book given what John says to Evelyn Miller in the epilogue. This is what Dutch walked away from initially when Arthur and Micah were fighting, and it's what made him walk away from Micah second time around because Micah was just getting too greedy and power hungry - that and how money was tearing apart everything around him.

 

Dutch going "crazy" was because he realized that civilization was an inevitability, something you couldn't run away from hence why he wanted it to crash and burn which is why by RDR1 he becomes more of an anarchist. We also see this in the last chapter of RDR2 - he just wants more chaos and destruction to break the infrastructure of civilization (or, the Pinkertons as symbolized by the game). His entire monologue about his nature vs the nature of the world is based around this concept and I think that doesn't make Dutch inherently crazy - he's aware of his actions but he's just a classic R* sociopath and doesn't have the capacity to care about who he hurts, kills and what he destroys to accomplish his agenda. Following on from what I said before, the only reason he probably went back to Micah to work with him again was the only means he had of acquiring money to fund his goals.
 

At least that's how I interpreted it. None of it's concrete but Dutch is a very complex character and it's fun exploring his motivations and such.

 

ehh if all that was fully the the case then in rd1 he wouldnt have turned into a maniac trying to rob more banks and killing innocent people

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Implicitly

Hosea would be the better leader but then again, Dutch's charisma is what got them far in a way, I feel like both of them equal though are superior rather than just one.

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Oldsport

i think arthur would be the better leader than both. i think it was dumb of both hosea and dutch to try and use both families in rhodes thinking they wont get caught. arthur and hosea as co leaders would be the goat tho , minus micah. that gang would be like the dream team

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RyuNova

Dutch, Hosea and Arthur work as a perfect trinity. Dutch is impulsive and charismatic, Hosea is intelligent and calm while Arthur is the mediator and a mix of both. Dutch can enflame Hosea, Hosea can calm Dutch and Arthur can make both see sense as long as the other is there to back him up.

 

Spoiler

After Hosea dies we see Dutch run amok without reasoning, Arthur without Hosea cannot keep him in check. 

 

Edited by RyuNova

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Scaeva

One problem with evaluating Dutch is that you never meet him in his prime. Arthur does, but the player doesn't. He is introduced *after* the failed Blackwater robbery, which was the turning point for the gang. The entirety of RDR2 is about their downward spiral.

 

Dutch's plans used to work prior to Blackwater, which is partly why he doesn't lose the gang's loyalty even when it has become clear to the player that the gang's luck has run out. It is also suggested that the many years as an outlaw and the increasing stress of the net closing in on them net have taken their toll on Dutch, and his mental state is beginning to deteriorate. The murder of a civilian in Blackwater, which occurs before the game begins, was the first warning sign that something was amiss.

 

 

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Jimbatron
3 hours ago, Scaeva said:

One problem with evaluating Dutch is that you never meet him in his prime. Arthur does, but the player doesn't. He is introduced *after* the failed Blackwater robbery, which was the turning point for the gang. The entirety of RDR2 is about their downward spiral.

 

Dutch's plans used to work prior to Blackwater, which is partly why he doesn't lose the gang's loyalty even when it has become clear to the player that the gang's luck has run out. It is also suggested that the many years as an outlaw and the increasing stress of the net closing in on them net have taken their toll on Dutch, and his mental state is beginning to deteriorate. The murder of a civilian in Blackwater, which occurs before the game begins, was the first warning sign that something was amiss.

 

 

Respectfully I would suggest that how good Dutch’s plans were prior to Blackwater is not the point to focus on.

 

Its almost certain they were better otherwise the gang would have fallen apart much sooner. But whether his plans were technically better has little to do with his fundamental character.

 

What the story says to me is that Dutch is a skilled manipulator of people, but to him loyalty is a concept he ultilises to keep control of his gang, rather than something he believes in himself. This is shown in Chapter 6 when he abandons members on more than one occasion to probable death when they are perceived as no longer useful.

 

Dutch is charismatic and used to using that to get his way and have people follow him without much objection. When times are tough and people start to question him then his true colours emerge.

 

Characters with such personality traits like that are very common in the modern business world. It’s worth watching out for them and being wary.

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roe

Dutch >

Hosea was cool but only as a counter to Dutch.  On his own he'd have been nothing and the gang wouldn't have got anywhere. 

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