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O.Z

Great video about RDR2

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O.Z

I've come across this video on youtube, I agree with him on most points, definitely worth a watch for all Rockstar Games fans.

 

 

Edited by O.Z

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Slappy212

Yeah I saw that vid and aside from the annoying presentation he's spot on. Rockstar's mission design since GTA4 has always felt rote. It's definitely not their strong point.

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O.Z
9 minutes ago, Slappy212 said:

Yeah I saw that vid and aside from the annoying presentation he's spot on. Rockstar's mission design since GTA4 has always felt rote. It's definitely not their strong point.

Agreed. That’s why I’m always more into free roaming and doing my own sh*t after the story, it’s still easily a game of the decade for me, however the missions are very linear indeed... he has a very good point. 

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Jason

It's a good video and his ideas are well thought out for the most part but eh, there's not much there I can sit and nod my head to especially when he puts all his points under a very clickbait title with the word "outdated" in it. Whenever I see the word outdated used in association with RDR2 I assume it's to do with the mechanics, the aiming in particular, but the mission and open world design? No, not really. It's limiting in areas, mission routing and weapon selection being the key areas but beyond not really. The comparisons to GTA mission design would make sense if we were talking about GTA V (and I'd agree) but for RDR2 it doesn't really make much sense at all.

 

The RDR games by their very nature are limited by the setting and time period when it comes to missions that involve combat, so using examples of mission freedom from GTA's to go "look you can do this!" and then pointing to RDR2's missions will always be stupid, I mean, what else could you do with the tools you have available to you in RDR2? You can't go rig a car with a bomb, you can't go get a helicopter, a truck or a tank or something like that, you've got yer guns yer horse and that's about it. That being said the game does have issues with player freedom in missions like I mentioned above, those two areas being weapon selection and routing. In many of the missions you're given weapons and forced into a particular playstyle because of those weapons even though there's really no need to. The missions also don't really give you much choice when it comes to what direction you approach these missions, which isn't the biggest deal in the world as many of RDR2's story missions don't particularly lend them selves all that well to that but there are occasions where it would've been nice to be given the choice to approach a firefight from a different angle.

 

Also while his point that the open world promotes dynamic and emergent gameplay and that the story is all about linear and heavily scripted gameplay is true this isn't necessarily a bad thing, I mean, both styles of gameplay can be a ton of fun in there own way and there's no rule or reason why they can't co-exist in a game. Again, there could definitely be more choice when it comes to how you play the missions but this is more of a design choice than something that is factually bad or outdated, I'd wager that for every person that took issue with how linear RDR2's missions were there were 99 people that loved them, and the same could be said if RDR2's missions were open and promoted creativity instead of being linear and scripted. Fun's fun, pretty much, people don't really give a sh*t as long as it's fun.

 

His other points about the game being hand holdy or the police AI being sh*tty in select situations are definitely something I'd agree with but again, outdated? No.

 

Honestly, while I have no problem with people discussing RDR2's flaws and failings the hyperbole people have been using to describe it's flaws and failings have become a wee bit embarrassing when for one it's not like there's many, if any, open world games out there that do any of the things RDR2 does "bad" any better (outside the two ones I mentioned, anyway) but RDR2 also does things that no other open world game does full stop.

 

tl;dr: clickbait sucks and the guy should've called this his RDR2 review instead of fishing for views and hoping to go viral with his clickbait title

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mde2
2 hours ago, Jason said:

tl;dr: clickbait sucks and the guy should've called this his RDR2 review instead of fishing for views and hoping to go viral with his clickbait title 

This + most of what else you said

 

Linearity isn't inherently a bad thing (see: Max Payne) but the way it's handled in this game, especially when it was touted as a game where you were free to tackle missions how you want and all these stealth mechanics and sh*t is just poor form but it's certainly not outdated by any means, it's the industry standard.

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Blasterman4EVER

This video review is terrible.

To think, this guy is skilled enough with a green screen to make a good living professionally, and he chooses to superimpose himself on a ball over a fallacious RDR2 review.

I'm all for pushing the envelope and finding the next best thing and improving gameplay in the future, but --- I'm not on page with this guy. I didn't agree with most of the analogies, and I never felt bored doing the "repetitive tasks".

Like someone else said, this is just a clickbait review with some really, really intrusive and silly visual effects.

I am disgusted with YouTube producers like this, who take every chance to be cute and snarky and altogether disrespectful to the art of video games and storytelling, and who try to earn followers on the basis of their supposedly creative attempts to trash something beautiful.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but this video is trash. I don't understand how any person could enjoy watching this producer's videos.

Edited by Blasterman4EVER

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O.Z
1 hour ago, mde2 said:

This + most of what else you said

 

Linearity isn't inherently a bad thing (see: Max Payne) but the way it's handled in this game, especially when it was touted as a game where you were free to tackle missions how you want and all these stealth mechanics and sh*t is just poor form but it's certainly not outdated by any means, it's the industry standard.

 

That's the thing though, you can't tackle the missions how you want, it's all heavily scripted, that's what the whole video was basically about. And I agree with that. We should have had way more freedom... that's why I don't have any passion to do the 2nd walkthrough any time soon(give it a year or so). I'm just enjoying free roaming now, like I always do with any of the Rockstar games. So I get his point that the game design(missions) haven't really evolved at all.

 

That GTA 3 reference was spot on though, you should be able to do your own thing, rather than having a scripted mission with that scripted cut scene like a Naughty Dog game. 

 

And I don't agree with it being a clickbait title at all. He has a valid point, and if you actually watched the whole video, he is also a huge Rockstar fan.

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Jason

There's nothing in the mission design that's outdated though. In fact there's absolutely nothing that he mentions in the video that is outdated. If you want definitive proof of that, he doesn't even use the word outdated once in the video. It's 100% clickbait.

 

To suggest the mission design is outdated would also be saying that God of War or The Last of Us 2's mission design is outdated, which is obviously silly. There's nothing inherently wrong with linear missions. Comparisons to GTA are also stupid for reasons I said above but essentially boils down to Red Dead not being GTA. What he's doing is critiquing the game which is fair enough, but even then he's not factually correct in many of the points he makes, a lot of it is objective. It's more a review or his thoughts on the game.

 

Also another reason why I found it difficult to agree with him on many of his points is that his proposals on what they should've done are very objective, things like how he proposed the camp should work and tie into the story defeat the point of what Rockstar tried to do with it (which was to make it optional). It's a decent video and while he raises valid points a lot of it seems to come from him wanting (or expecting) the game to be something it never was going to be. It comes off less as a 30 minute discussion about what the game does in his opinion poorly and more a 30 min talk about what he wanted RDR2 to be.

 

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Jabalous

Outdated isn't objectively a correct way to describe the missions structure. It's simply another way of designing missions with the narrative having a higher priority over player's freedom. The comparison to Zelda and Minecraft does not make sense because both games hardly have any story, complex characters and set pieces that drive progression. I'd take his criticism seriously if he can recall another open-world game with a narrative that is as deep and fine-tuned as Red Dead and with a better missions structure, so that the comparison can be fair and square.

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crybaby17h16

as much as i like rockstar and their games,their hard work and their creativity, he is right pretty much in everything he says in his review of red dead.

i always complain about the idea that we are in an open world game and instead of the game to tell me to figure it out, all what it tells me is to follow it out, follow an npc or other charactes or follow this and that, go this way, follow this thing, do this and this then do this and horrraaay mission complete. 

 

just remembering the doomsday heist and how lester annoys me from the start of the mission till the end of it, go to this point, follow this helicopter, fight this npcs, steal their cargo or something in the exact way he told you to, now come back.. there is no room for creativity at all..

 

i know that they want to tell a story from this 100% scripted missions, but it feels so so controlled and it ruins much of the experience. so in the future they should make games that are ready to interact with you in many ways, the missions should be able to be done in many different ways. their next game should be atleast 50% scripted 50% free, 

 

like that mission of  braithwaite battle or the prologue fight they are scripted but it works and they are so cool, but they should give more other missions the ability to be done in many different ways..

 

it feels like they are afraid that you will be bored so they guide you all the time, i would prefer to figure out my ways in missions and count my possibilities and trick the game you know,

 

they have the chance to fix things in the online, with new online missions to be done in many different ways and not 100% scripted. 

 

lets say a mission when you rob a rich family's house, some will like to shoot everything from the start, others would like to dress like the guards and figure their way to the inside of the house, others would like to just stay next to the house and wait for a perfect moment, like hear a guard says to his friend that a wagon should come in any time now and then go to the road and  search for that wagon and hide in it and sneak into the house maybe.. 

 

TL:DR  i love rockstar and red dead redemption 2 so much, rdr2 is scripted to the teeth cuz they want to deliver a story, they should find ways to deliver their stories while their games should be all open for freedom and creativity,and missions can be done in many different ways and instead of follow it, should be figure it out.

 

EVEN IF WE LIKE A GAME SO MUCH AND WANT TO SUPPORT ROCKSTAR'S ARTS AS THEY ARE ONE OF THE FEW WHO HAVE TRUE PASSION IN THEIR GAMES. EVERYONE SHOULD TAKE SOME CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, THATS HOW THINGS DEVELOP TO THE BETTER.

 

sorry for mistakes

Edited by crybaby17h16

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FreeMaxB585

There is flaws in every single game. But this is still the best game ive ever played. I even tried going back to Skyrim, Fallout etc and they felt terrible to me. I even tried giving god of war 4 a 2nd play through and I was bored as hell 2 hours in. Regardless any game I play where I log on at 9pm and before I know it its 5 a.m. is amazing in my book. When I can get an east 150 hours I wont complain one bit. And then the online still in beta form that I can mess around with other friends is just extra gravy

 

If want to talk about out dated engines go look at bethesda doing the same crap for 20 years. Or even EA using the same engine for Madden for 10 years, and Battlefield forever. Or really look at the new "Just Cause" that is literally the same repetitive crap. and exact same engine Not too many current games with franchises have been able to make that big of changes to their engine. Nothing in that video really sways me at all, a lot of seemed very petty and minimal  With how big the game is with how much stuff there is to do, and all the time that even went to the online, not everything can be perfect. No game is

 

One part that made me kind of laugh is when he complained how the map can be too big and there can be too much riding around. Well for one there is fast travel nearly everywhere, can upgrade at camp, take stage coaches and trains. Not like cinematic mode isnt around either. But if wasnt as big people would complain that it was like some GTA's that were too small

Edited by FreeMaxB585

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Xerukal

I wouldn't call their entire, core game design "outdated". It's just that mission design hasn't changed much. Though it has certainly gotten better, it's still the same formula. Which is fine, but they could stand to make the objectives bend around the player's actions in missions a lot more.

 

Rockstar is already pretty good at anticipating various outcomes when it comes to players, they have plenty of hidden triggers for stuff out in the open world. Why not apply that to missions? If people f*ck up a stealth section or chase scene, have the objective change from going quiet to loud, or from chasing to tracking.

 

There's a lot of unneeded insta-fail states in RDR2 when they really could've just made the game a bit looser and adaptable. Remember being able to fail the mission that required you to purchase a shotgun in GTA V, just by spending money on a different gun? Yeah... what's the point of stuff like that?

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FreeMaxB585
2 hours ago, Blasterman4EVER said:

This video review is terrible.

To think, this guy is skilled enough with a green screen to make a good living professionally, and he chooses to superimpose himself on a ball over a fallacious RDR2 review.

I'm all for pushing the envelope and finding the next best thing and improving gameplay in the future, but --- I'm not on page with this guy. I didn't agree with most of the analogies, and I never felt bored doing the "repetitive tasks".

Like someone else said, this is just a clickbait review with some really, really intrusive and silly visual effects.

I am disgusted with YouTube producers like this, who take every chance to be cute and snarky and altogether disrespectful to the art of video games and storytelling, and who try to earn followers on the basis of their supposedly creative attempts to trash something beautiful.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but this video is trash. I don't understand how any person could enjoy watching this producer's videos.

 

whats funny is its a GOW 4 fan boy. the guy who made the vid was also on reddit before and he got some hard push back when some people said GOW 4 was linear and its only a 25 hour experience with not much replay value, he kind of sperged out back at people over statements like that

2 hours ago, Jason said:

There's nothing in the mission design that's outdated though. In fact there's absolutely nothing that he mentions in the video that is outdated. If you want definitive proof of that, he doesn't even use the word outdated once in the video. It's 100% clickbait.

 

To suggest the mission design is outdated would also be saying that God of War or The Last of Us 2's mission design is outdated, which is obviously silly. There's nothing inherently wrong with linear missions. Comparisons to GTA are also stupid for reasons I said above but essentially boils down to Red Dead not being GTA. What he's doing is critiquing the game which is fair enough, but even then he's not factually correct in many of the points he makes, a lot of it is objective. It's more a review or his thoughts on the game.

 

Also another reason why I found it difficult to agree with him on many of his points is that his proposals on what they should've done are very objective, things like how he proposed the camp should work and tie into the story defeat the point of what Rockstar tried to do with it (which was to make it optional). It's a decent video and while he raises valid points a lot of it seems to come from him wanting (or expecting) the game to be something it never was going to be. It comes off less as a 30 minute discussion about what the game does in his opinion poorly and more a 30 min talk about what he wanted RDR2 to be.

 

 

Hes a GOW 4 fan boy is the funny part, to him rd2 cant come close to it

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jje1000

It's not so much that it's outdated, it's just that linear mission design inherently clashes with the freedom of an open world. You don't question Naughty Dog/Sony Santa Monica holding your hand through Uncharted/GOW, as you know that you're playing their story through their set pieces.

 

With a setting and world that subtly emphasizes freedom (in the wild west, go anywhere you want, be the Arthur you want to be!), it's here that player's freedom comes into conflict with the ways the missions are set up. To be honest, the game does a good job in funneling player attention via cutscenes and gameplay triggers, but there's still plenty of instances where you could wonder- "Could I go to/do/try this instead?" and the game doesn't have a good response for that beyond snapping you back to its boundaries. On top of that, this does heavily limit replayability (note that all the mission medals are more or less tied into timers and headshots), which I wish weren't the case.

 

I think Rockstar needs to start looking at opening up their mission structures in the next title- they've given us vast setpieces to play with- I think they should look into allowing players more agency in determining how they want to solve those missions (and with fewer cutscenes).

 

On 12/21/2018 at 8:01 PM, Xerukal said:

I wouldn't call their entire, core game design "outdated". It's just that mission design hasn't changed much. Though it has certainly gotten better, it's still the same formula. Which is fine, but they could stand to make the objectives bend around the player's actions in missions a lot more.

 

Rockstar is already pretty good at anticipating various outcomes when it comes to players, they have plenty of hidden triggers for stuff out in the open world. Why not apply that to missions? If people f*ck up a stealth section or chase scene, have the objective change from going quiet to loud, or from chasing to tracking.

 

There's a lot of unneeded insta-fail states in RDR2 when they really could've just made the game a bit looser and adaptable. Remember being able to fail the mission that required you to purchase a shotgun in GTA V, just by spending money on a different gun? Yeah... what's the point of stuff like that? 

100% agree- missions should have a defined start and end, but multiple internal branches/goals/failure modes that get triggered depending on how the player plays. I saw a little of that in Rain Fall's mission (where you could go in guns blazing or by stealth), I wish there were more of that.

 

I wonder if it could work if the game blended the story and missions a bit more, where you have an overarching mission that's in the background, but you have a variety of goals to achieve on your own. Alternatively, just have fewer cutscenes and have more of the scenes running during gameplay so that the player can do what they want- some of the bounty missions come into mind.

 

Edited by jje1000

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TheSantader25

The only time they slightly changed the mission design was V and they got sh*tted on so... Honestly despite all the hatred on the multiple protagonist system, if they improve it for VI and let you switch ANYTIME during a mission without forcing you it could be a very good way to spice things up. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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mde2
5 hours ago, O.Z said:

And I don't agree with it being a clickbait title at all. He has a valid point, and if you actually watched the whole video, he is also a huge Rockstar fan. 

I did watch the whole video, twice. Being a Rockstar fan doesn't make you impervious to criticism or making clickbait. It was clickbait, he never talks about why it's outdated he just made juvenile analogies and compared it to similar games.

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Jimbatron

Outdated is a horribly subjective phrase.

 

The game has a familiar style you can recognise that we’ve come to know over more than a decade. You’d instantly recognise it as an R* title without needing prior knowledge of the game or logos to tell you who made it.

 

Some people can take “similar” and “been around for years” as enough to mean “outdated” but that for me also requires it to be losing quality, at least in the relative if not the absolute sense. In the case of RDR 2 I’d disagree strongly with that. It’s a good evolution of the formula and I enjoy the missions every bit as much as GTA IV 10 years ago.

 

Take the Command and Conquer franchise. Every game upto and including 3 was good and sold well. Then some idiot  at EA decided it was “outdated”. As a result they completely overhauled a classic gameplay system and the result was crap. It was the only C&C game I didn’t finish.

 

Just because Chess has been around for hundreds or years would anyone claim its outdated and demand a revolution in how the pieces move?

 

I honestly think R* would be mad to ditch their overall formula. As long as they continue to build beautiful open worlds and have story lines as good as RDR2 then the only need to make evolutionary improvements.

 

TL,DR Outdated is the wrong word.

 

 

Edited by Jimbatron

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Cutter De Blanc

this dude sure loves hearing himself talk doesnt he

 

I might agree with some of his points, but he makes them so obnoxiously i'd rather not

Edited by Cutter De Blanc

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O.Z
4 hours ago, mde2 said:

I did watch the whole video, twice. Being a Rockstar fan doesn't make you impervious to criticism or making clickbait. It was clickbait, he never talks about why it's outdated he just made juvenile analogies and compared it to similar games.

 

Outdated as in the same formula used for the past 20 years, instead of making mission structure much more free from the scripted cutscenes etc. For an example, why not let us kill the stagecoach people when we are robbing them instead getting FAILED, cos you shot them and you didn't follow Rockstars pre scripted rules

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mde2
2 minutes ago, O.Z said:

Outdated as in the same formula used for the past 20 years, instead of making mission structure much more free from the scripted cutscenes etc.

If it's still used today that means it's not outdated lol. If Rockstar was the only developer making games that have heavily scripted missions and cutscenes it would be outdated but they're not.

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TheSantader25

It's the same sh*t being used by other devs as well. It isn't "good". But it's not "outdated". Outdated would mean R* are the only devs left on the planet using it. 

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O.Z
On 12/22/2018 at 8:52 AM, mde2 said:

If it's still used today that means it's not outdated lol. If Rockstar was the only developer making games that have heavily scripted missions and cutscenes it would be outdated but they're not.

 

We are all looking and hoping to get the next big thing from Rockstar(like they did with GTA 3) as it's the only developer who really pushes the boundaries every time they release a game... however the mission structure is still similar to the games released over the past decades and even less freedom than the likes of GTA 3.

 

The immersion/scale/graphics etc are all greatly improved apart from the freedom in missions, they are still heavily scripted and that's why I think he uses the word outdated. And of course some people like the linearity of the missions, but most Rockstar fans would agree the more choices the better. Leave the linearity to the likes of Naughty Dog and the rest of the developers. Rockstar should have taken the open world game mission structure further 

Edited by O.Z

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Cutter De Blanc

I will never forget the ignoble end Salvatore Leone got in my GTA 3 file. I ran his ass over with a police car. Can't do that kind of thing here.

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Xerukal

Honestly, it's ok for RDR to have linear missions. As a series, it never really did pride itself on open-ended solutions to problems in missions. Would I like them to be present? For sure. I primarily want more leniency towards objectives & fail-states mid-mission. But if they want to have linear missions, then I say let them. Just don't make them so strict by design.

 

On the other hand, GTA has yet to return to the old mission design structure where several approaches were tolerated by the game. Maybe that's something they'll look into GTA VI, since I think V got a decent amount of criticism regarding the linear design.

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