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Sackville

Criticisms.

Recommended Posts

Sackville

Before I get into some of the things that I didn’t like about this game I wanted to preface this by saying this was the best gaming experience of my life time. It’s as close to a masterpiece as anything has ever been with video games. Try to remember this as you read:)

 

There will be spoilers.

 

The storyline. It’s brilliant but there are moments where I felt very impotent. Powerless. I’m not talking about tuberculosis either. The name of the game is red dead Redemption right? So where is my Redemption moment? Arthur sure as hell never had a single one! This in spite of having at least 3 protagonists to hate. Milton, Cornwall and the notoriously hated Micah Bell.

I felt like the writers couldn’t get over themselves and their considerable narrative prowess, at times.  

Yes they can tell one helluva’ yarn, but I think at times it could come at the expense of satisfaction and good old fashioned fun.

 

Cornwall- Killed by Dutch

Milton- Sadie Adler

Micah- Killed by Dutch. 

 

Hello writers! Hi,  it’s me Johnny Average Gamer. Can you please move out of the way just once and let me shoot somebody? Thanks Kindly!

 

Even though you do get to shoot Micah as John, there is never a “ this is for Arthur” moment and even so it is Dutch who gets the first shot, taking some of the little revenge felt, out of it.

 

Even with the Arrogant  Italian Crime Boss of St Denise. Man I hated that guy. Man did I ever not get to kill him either. But guess who did? Dutch again! Yee haa!

 

See a pattern here?

 

It is obvious the writers love Dutch. I know I sure did, up until late Chapter IV. But I think sometimes you gotta give the players a little of what they want. A little pinch of satisfaction. Especially when you dump on their characters so much and so hard in every game.

Is one moment of pure and simple revenge too much to ask for?

 

We get it, you can write, but we came to play too.

 

The last thing I wanted to talk about was pacing. I have a list of gameplay stuff also but I am thinking that is gonna have to wait.

Red Dead Redemption 2 is a western that you never really go west in.  I felt like New Austin was this carrot on a stick for most of the game and you never really get the carrot after all. I’m grateful that New Austin is in the game, but I wish I knew how insignificant it was gonna be to the story line. I would have put it out of my mind. I was so ready to go there by the end of Chapter IV.

Then came Guarma...

 

Guarma was pointless and if they were gonna cut anything out of this game, give us back the 5 hours of romance, you can keep Guarma.

 

I think the game would have been better to either take Guarma out and instead chapter V is in Roanoke with VI being in New Austin. Or vice versa.  If they had spun a chapter into New Austin it would have brought that place to life much more so.

 

Sorry, I hate to be negative. The game really is so brilliant. I just don’t think I’ve ever loved a game more, and because I do. This stuff matters.

 

thanks kindly!

 

 

 

 

 

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Sackville

Antagonists. Sorry that should read Antagonists

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Jimbatron
 

 


I believe it’s Abigail who shoots Milton
 

 

1 hour ago, Sackville said:

 

Milton- Sadie Adler

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jimbatron

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BretMaverick777
1 hour ago, Jimbatron said:
  Hide contents

 


I believe it’s Abigail who shoots Milton
 

 

 

It is.

But yeah, his point still stands that Arthur doesn't really get to take out any of the "bosses."   Hell, pretty much all of them happened in cutscenes, at the hand of someone other than Arthur.    Colm O'Driscoll...?   Added to the list. 

...and Catherine Braithwaite.  And Tavish Gray, the patriarch of that family.   Hell, we could do memes about Arthur not killing anybody important at all in this game. 😯

Edited by BretMaverick777

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Marcinguy

I happen to agree with this assessment. There is no build up for Arthur until the final fight with Micah, and even then it's pretty unsatisfying. I think for me the best moments were some of the bounties and side stories that had you dueling some other cool character, especially the one where you hunt down the gunslingers for that old guy and his biographer( forgot the names).

 

In VIce City I still remember the moment I went toe to toe with that traitor Lance Vance, chasing him up to the roof, and finally finishing him off. I think things started to change with San Andreas, where it seemed no matter what you did you just couldn't win. I remember being totally pissed after taking over all the zones in LA and then losing it all because of some story BS where you had to leave the city. Man, total waste of time that was. GTA IV is where I thing it changed for the worst where the story basically just drove you off a cliff no matter what. RDR 1 was much the same, but at least you got to kill the last guy as Jack. 

 

Spoiler

I'm all for great story telling, but I too wish there was a better moment for Arthur to get some satisfaction since we are controlling him for pretty much the whole game. He gets tb, loses his girl, loses all his friends basically, sheesh. Doesn't even get to kill that punk Milton. And then getting taken down by Micah where you basically can do nothing because the story is just going that way. 

 

 I didn't feel the epilogue ending was particularly powerful either, just rather depressing. Dutch just walking off without a word. Sadie and Charles leave the Ranch and you're left with a whiny brat, a lazy layabout, and a nagging wife while you seem to be the only one who does chores around the place. I just threw on my duster, got on my horse, and said good riddance to the place.  Also, there is that weird thing where you can't shoot at Micah during the final fight. As soon as you step out of cover he massacres you. You just wait for the cut-scene basically. I was a bit meh at the end. Restarted the game and taking my time from chapter 2 to 4 this time around.

 

Despite all that though, I still love the game. Nearly a masterpiece. I think it's overall better than the likes of Witcher 3, which up to this point was my favorite. RDR2 just a tad bit better it think.

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Sackville

That’s a hard one. Both games have phenomenal voice acting but Red Dead’s is slightly better. 

Witcher 3 story is Better though. That moment where Arthur and Micah fight on the cliff, how you felt? The Witcher 3 made you feel like that 3x or more with its story. You also felt the weight of your choices several times in the campaign and you got to kill some of your enemies.

Those guys are making a mistake by switching to Cyberpunk just when they won over so many fans to that franchise. 

 

The problem with Red Dead is it gave you amazing freedom only to choke point the hell out of you constantly.

 

Yeah sorry, it was late when I wrote that. Abigail did shoot Milton.

Yeah sorry, it was late when I wrote that. Abigail did shoot Milton.

 

 

Speaking if Colm O’driscoll..

 

On my second play through knowing that I wouldn’t get any actual redemption I decided to take Redemption into my own hands. I shot Colm from the rooftop with the long arm rifle. Guess what happened?

 

Mission failed!!!

 

I don’t know if success breeds arrogance for Rockstar, but they need to let up once in awhile with the Nazi control.

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Sackville

I think there is an active mindset at Rockstar that is deliberately responsible for this. Because I also see it in the gameplay at times.

 

I’m not a cry baby or a snowflake either.

I play the game on free aim. I crank the difficulty all the way up when possible.

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roe
48 minutes ago, Sackville said:

Speaking if Colm O’driscoll.. 

  

On my second play through knowing that I wouldn’t get any actual redemption I decided to take Redemption into my own hands. I shot Colm from the rooftop with the long arm rifle. Guess what happened?

 

Mission failed!!!

 

I don’t know if success breeds arrogance for Rockstar, but they need to let up once in awhile with the Nazi control.

 

It's moments like this that massively let the game down imo.  It's the same when Lenny gets killed, even if you quickly go into dead-eye before he's shot and shoot the enemies in the head, the bullets will do nothing and Lenny will die anyway.  Basically almost every mission has far too tight a script, and it's completely at odds with the rest of the game's open ambition.

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coach_wargo

I just finished the epilogue this afternoon, and I agree the scripted kills are too much. That final showdown with Micah was a disappointment. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't hit him, so I started chucking fire bottles and dynamite his way. When the dynamite blew and nothing happened I was like, "oh of course, another scripted scene."

 

And what was the point of having to aim back and forth between Dutch and Micah? It would have just been more fluid as a cut scene instead of the stuttery mess I got because I didn't realize I had to keep pointing back and forth and addressing Dutch. 

 

I love both of these games, and I think it's awesome to carry on as John, but I really wanted to deliver a final blow on at least one of the baddies. 

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Cutter De Blanc
20 minutes ago, coach_wargo said:

I just finished the epilogue this afternoon, and I agree the scripted kills are too much. That final showdown with Micah was a disappointment. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't hit him, so I started chucking fire bottles and dynamite his way. When the dynamite blew and nothing happened I was like, "oh of course, another scripted scene."

 

And what was the point of having to aim back and forth between Dutch and Micah? It would have just been more fluid as a cut scene instead of the stuttery mess I got because I didn't realize I had to keep pointing back and forth and addressing Dutch. 

 

I love both of these games, and I think it's awesome to carry on as John, but I really wanted to deliver a final blow on at least one of the baddies. 

It definitely ruined that final encounter for me after having been killed about 10 times climbing up there, die once during the 2 second "gunfight" then Dutch shows up. I shot Micah, and Dutch shot me, reload already frustrated with the gameyness of it, shot dutch, Micah shoots me. Gets me thinking This is stupid, and John should be looking after his family and not fighting former colleagues on a mountain. f*ck you John,  you threw it all away

Edited by Cutter De Blanc

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Sackville

Exactly. 

There is a difference between movies and video games Rockstar. 

Once you learn that nothing that you do will ever matter, why do it? Why even fight with Micah on the cliff top?

 

 

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TheSantader25

Arthur kills two minor villains

I get your point but I don't think Redemption means the protagonist needs to kill villains! It means the protagonist should be washed away off his sins and find peace which Arthur does. 

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Guest Guest176525326
9 hours ago, roe said:

 

It's moments like this that massively let the game down imo.  It's the same when Lenny gets killed, even if you quickly go into dead-eye before he's shot and shoot the enemies in the head, the bullets will do nothing and Lenny will die anyway.  Basically almost every mission has far too tight a script, and it's completely at odds with the rest of the game's open ambition.

Could not agree more. That’s why I didn’t really like the story that much, it has way too many scripted missions, I really hated them. 

 

PS: I also tried to take out Micah with the dynamite and it actually landed close to him(like spot on), but he just carried away like nothing happend... we don’t want these kind of missions Rockstar, it ruins the whole open world premise and immersion. I think RDR2 has the most scripted missions of any Rockstar game to date... :(

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saintsrow

Working title for the game at Rockstar:  "RED DEAD ON RAILS"

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

Arthur kills two minor villains

I get your point but I don't think Redemption means the protagonist needs to kill villains! It means the protagonist should be washed away off his sins and find peace which Arthur does. 

Lucky for Arthur, at the end, it only takes payments of a couple hundred bucks, to a couple of people whose lives Arthur ruined, to buy honor up to 98% and get redemption.  Cheap at twice the price!  

 

Edited by saintsrow

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Guest Guest176525326
3 minutes ago, saintsrow said:

Working title for the game at Rockstar:  "RED DEAD ON RAILS"

 

I actually lol’d to this. Well said

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TheSantader25
8 minutes ago, saintsrow said:

 

 

Lucky for Arthur, at the end, it only takes payments of a couple hundred bucks, to a couple of people whose lives Arthur ruined, to buy honor up to 98% and get redemption.  Cheap at twice the price!  

 

Well he did his best. 

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Sackville

It’s nice that Arthur finds redemption, but what about the players that didn’t want it?

My first play through I played Arthur as he is, a villain. I was penalized for choosing that path, even though it’s a much  more difficult path to go.

The game is divided. And you are forced from on the onset.

As I said before, good writing for Movies and good writing for games is not the same thing. 

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TheSantader25
54 minutes ago, Sackville said:

It’s nice that Arthur finds redemption, but what about the players that didn’t want it?

My first play through I played Arthur as he is, a villain. I was penalized for choosing that path, even though it’s a much  more difficult path to go.

The game is divided. And you are forced from on the onset.

As I said before, good writing for Movies and good writing for games is not the same thing. 

Arthur is not a villain as he is. It's clear that having a "grey" Arthur at the beginning and having an honorable one in the end is canon. But yeah. Being dishonorable is an option too. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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Sackville

I mean in what world is beating a father in front of his wife and kids while he is sickly and starving them off their property not Evil?

Robbing Banks, Killing Lawmen. If that ain’t villainy I am not sure what could be.

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Guest Guest176525326
6 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

Arthur is not a villain as he is. It's clear that having a "grey" Arthur at the beginning and having an honorable one in the end is canon. But yeah. Being dishonorable is an option too. 

I was dishonourable the whole story, I think that’s why I got the ending where Arthur gets stabbed in the back by Micah

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TheSantader25
6 minutes ago, O.Z said:

I was dishonourable the whole story, I think that’s why I got the ending where Arthur gets stabbed in the back by Micah

Yes. I played normally in my first playthrough. And I'm playing like a dickhead for the second time. It's kinda fun tbh. Killing assholes with no remorse. I'm gonna rack up my bounty to maximum everywhere I can and I won't pay a single $ to fix it. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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Sackville

I’ve played through both ways now. 

Being bad is far more entertaining.

It’s not even close 

Everywhere you go your hunted. There was never a dull moment

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Marcinguy
6 hours ago, TheSantader25 said:

Yes. I played normally in my first playthrough. And I'm playing like a dickhead for the second time. It's kinda fun tbh. Killing assholes with no remorse. I'm gonna rack up my bounty to maximum everywhere I can and I won't pay a single $ to fix it. 

Yeah me too. Funny thing is, my honor level is not even that bad. It's just less than half and I've done some evil crap this time around. No more need to chase down witnesses, now I just blow them away. I also dropped the guy off the cliff in chapter 2 this time around. That's where I"m at right now. 

 

But it is satisfying to finally blow away those NPC who dare talk smack to me on the trail. I also like how there are always bounty hunters coming around since I've racked up some decent ones in every area now. Provides me with some action outside the towns.

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Marcinguy
6 hours ago, Sackville said:

I mean in what world is beating a father in front of his wife and kids while he is sickly and starving them off their property not Evil?

Robbing Banks, Killing Lawmen. If that ain’t villainy I am not sure what could be.

 

Yeah, this is the type of stuff that annoys me about this game. Later on in similar circumstances you are given the option to do the right thing, but that first collection encounter (or is the second?) is basically beat this guy so Arthur gets TB. No choice here. They could have made it so if you are lenient with the guy and the reward for that is no TB and Arthur and Micah are on a level playing field at the end. Offer some different paths through the story. That's one way the Witcher 3 really excelled in it's story telling. The player makes a choice and there are far reaching consequences way down the rode while the story can take a completely different path for that particular play through. You can experience a story unique to how you want to play the character. 

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Sackville

Yeah Agreed. I am trying to think of a single instance in Witcher 3 where you were

forced into one course of action. I cannot. And every decision you make has a consequence for good or ill that you would feel later.

I wasn’t happy Arthur got tuburculosis but it was good writing and different. So I won’t conplain about it. I just think that the times the story forces you ( which is always) wouldn’t sting so much if the game wasn’t already forcing you in other ways.

 

 

 

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Sackville

Also the honor system is kind of wonky.

You can go out rob assault and murder the country side so long as you pause once in awhile to fish and release and say hello to everyone you are a good guy.

The game constantly looks to ding your honor through the course of natural game play

but doesn’t reward you for showing restraint.

So if I loot those dead pilgrims on the country side I will lose honor, but If I pass over their bodies I don’t get any honor for it.

They could have implemented a grave digging/burial system to “tidy up the dead” ala Augustus Mc Crae. It would have been cool to be able to respect good folks who ran afoul and died by burying them right. Or hanging bad folks from a tree out on the frontier. All these are ideas that would make playing the good guy more interesting.

 

Also I think it would be very cool to see gangs you have pissed off actually go after you more aggressively depending on the level you have been a pain in their ass. Similar to the bounty system but with more ambushes and what not.

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