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a z

WTF happened in Blackwater?

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BretMaverick777
3 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

No RDR2 never "promised" to resolve that. I don't think Blackwater is any more special than the later failures of the gang, it's just the start of it. You are acting as if there is some huge mystery there when it really isn't. We don't see it in the game because it would make Dutch too clearly "bad" from the get go, it's better to get invested and then have him gradually get worse. For Arthur and the player

 

I would still like some story DLC (mostly so we can explore the original map with Arthur) about it but it's not necessary.

 

Blackwater isn't part of the main story, same for New Austin. They only become important in the epilogue so Rockstar didn't put much content there. The rest of the map is great and what really counts.

Blackwater IS the story.  

From RDR2 to RDR1, and all points before and after.  It's the heart of the Marston story as well as the Van Der Linde story.  Both John and Dutch's lives keep intersecting there, no matter how many times they try to avoid it.   Both their lives end within that same state, just a few miles away from Blackwater.   It's the place where Dutch's mother is buried, indicating the Van Der Linde family came from there; it's the place where the Holy Grail of heists also lies buried, perhaps to this day; it's the site of the most infamous massacre in RDR history; it's the physical symbol of the overarching theme of wilderness vs. civilization, the past vs. progress.   It's where Sadie Adler gravitated towards; it's where John Marston gravitated towards; where even Uncle found his way.  It was the home of Landon Ricketts, gunfighter extraordinaire; it's where Bonnie Macfarlane's brother lost his life; it's where Edgar Ross winds up as the head of the fledgling FBI.  Not Chicago, not New York:   Blackwater, West Elizabeth.  It's deliberate wordplay on "backwater," which this town is, and which this town ain't. 

 

Like Rome in olden days, all roads lead to Blackwater.   That is most assuredly by design.

Edited by BretMaverick777

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a z

FYI, some cross post awareness as it's related to this topic...

 

 

 

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FreeMaxB585
On 12/11/2018 at 12:52 AM, 3Prcntr said:

All I know, is Blackwater was a HUGE let down. Same with New Austin. I was expecting a decent sized city, maybe bigger than Saint Denis the way they bragged about all the money they took and trouble they got in. That town was no bigger than Rhodes... And New Austin... Nothing there but herbs, pelts and an annoying Sheriff.

I don't see a third playthough in my future. I am only playing through a second time to get all the missed timeline features and piece it all together again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but Blackwater was a joke. The whole gunned down instantly thing for entering a small town like that... yea right... I'd expect more resistance from Valentine.

 

if you blacked the first game then you would know the size of it......lol what are they supposed to do make the city 5x bigger than the city in rd1 which is way in the future?

On 12/11/2018 at 9:24 AM, BretMaverick777 said:

Okay.  Stay cool with that smoke, I think you got laced.   Don't be trippin

 

dont engage. its the same guy who says micah was never a psychopath. His dad died and has daddy issues and all that turned him into a psychopath. even tho hes a racist, rapist, animal killer etc, it all resulted cause of daddy issues

On 12/11/2018 at 1:41 PM, Smokewood said:

Isn't it obvious?

Micha set them up, he has been a rat since he joined the gang. 

In fact - he may be a plant.

 

 no. not at all. Micah was not a rat at that point, had no reason to. there is 1000% evidence that he was way way way after that when getting picked up off the boat. if he was that early then he would've went back to the police to stay safe and would've been away from everything. he was not a rat at that point in time. we do know micah went nuts at blackwater tho. there is a little scene when arthur talks to dutch about who to bring on a little mission and when dutch suggests micah arthur says "I guess if you want a massacre"

Edited by FreeMaxB585

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Cutter De Blanc

If they are setting it up for a Blackwater chapter DLC, I could see that, they've got peices already in place. I think that might be their plan, since as early as 2016 the colter chapter was the intro if you go by the leaked map. I think it has been their intention to sell this chapter to us. The basic plot of the chapter is already sketched out in Arthur's journal. 

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Gray-Hand

Seeing the Blackwater Massacre would be intellectually satisfying, but it probably isn’t really relevant on an emotional level.  And the Red Dead Redemption stories are more about emotion, so seeing it happen on screen wouldn’t improve the story much.

 

For the Blackwater Massacre to be done properly, fitting into the kind of story that Rockstar are telling, it would need a hell of a lot of build up, so that we can really feel the shock of the catastrophe of a heist gone wrong.  We would have to be introduced to, and get to know the characters who died.  We would have to get a feel for what the gang was like when they were in their pomp, rather than when they were disintegrating. 

 

Done properly, The Blackwater Massacre is either the end of the first volume of a saga, or the middle chapter.  It’s not an opening scene.  That’s probably why it isn’t in the game.

 

It’s probably a ten hour game at least.  If it was added as a DLC, it would need to be from the point of view of a character with their own arc within that story.  I don’t know who that would be, maybe one of the ones who died.

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BretMaverick777
57 minutes ago, Gray-Hand said:

Seeing the Blackwater Massacre would be intellectually satisfying, but it probably isn’t really relevant on an emotional level.  And the Red Dead Redemption stories are more about emotion, so seeing it happen on screen wouldn’t improve the story much.

 

For the Blackwater Massacre to be done properly, fitting into the kind of story that Rockstar are telling, it would need a hell of a lot of build up, so that we can really feel the shock of the catastrophe of a heist gone wrong.  We would have to be introduced to, and get to know the characters who died.  We would have to get a feel for what the gang was like when they were in their pomp, rather than when they were disintegrating. 

 

Done properly, The Blackwater Massacre is either the end of the first volume of a saga, or the middle chapter.  It’s not an opening scene.  That’s probably why it isn’t in the game.

 

It’s probably a ten hour game at least.  If it was added as a DLC, it would need to be from the point of view of a character with their own arc within that story.  I don’t know who that would be, maybe one of the ones who died.

It's probably an exaggeration to assign that scale and scope to the shootout.  Hell, I can almost guarantee the Battle of Guarma, Escape From St Denis, The Rescue of Sean McCullough, The Braithwaite Manor Raid, The Wapiti Uprising, and maybe more scenarios were larger than Blackwater.  

 

And the emotional impact doesn't seem nearly as visceral as the kidnap of Jack Marston, or the death of any of our beloved gang members late in the game.  If anybody was broken up about the deaths of Jenny Kirk and the Callander Brothers, let alone a stranger named Heidi McCourt, they never let on.  

 

If anything, the screw-up would have had a much larger emotional impact on Arthur and Hosea, had they been there to witness it. 

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Gray-Hand

The Blackwater Massacre was far more important to the members of the gang than the Battle of Guarma, despite the geopolitical significance to the world at large and the number of casualties. In fact, part of the reason that there is such a negative view of chapter 5 from the playerbase is because the players don’t care about Guarma. And the players don’t care because, the characters don’t really care.

 

If converted into gameplay  the Blackwater Massacre would probably be equal to the Saint Denis getaway - similar number of gang members involved, similar number of named members killed. Definitely a bigger deal than rescuing Sean, or even probably, the Asault on Braithwaite Manor.

 

In in any case, regardless of the number of people involved, or the number of npc casualties, it deserves extra narrative focus due to its fundamental importance to all the main characters.  

 

The Blackwater Massacre was the hinge point of the Van Der Linde Gang.  It was their Stalingrad.  Before that, they were winning.  After that they just kept losing ground.  It changed everything for the characters and the characters themselves began to change. It deserves, and requires more than being the Cold Open for RDR2, or simply a downloadable mission.

Edited by Gray-Hand

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Fluffy Sock

It was talked so much about that event that the curiosity about it is humongous. I just want to see the level of exaggeration, if it's indeed exaggerated.

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Original Light
On 12/11/2018 at 12:52 AM, 3Prcntr said:

All I know, is Blackwater was a HUGE let down. Same with New Austin. I was expecting a decent sized city, maybe bigger than Saint Denis the way they bragged about all the money they took and trouble they got in. That town was no bigger than Rhodes... And New Austin... Nothing there but herbs, pelts and an annoying Sheriff.

I don't see a third playthough in my future. I am only playing through a second time to get all the missed timeline features and piece it all together again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but Blackwater was a joke. The whole gunned down instantly thing for entering a small town like that... yea right... I'd expect more resistance from Valentine.

Blackwater was in RDR1. Obviously they wouldn't make it larger in RDR2, since that would severely f*ck up the lore. 

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BretMaverick777
3 hours ago, Original Light said:

Blackwater was in RDR1. Obviously they wouldn't make it larger in RDR2, since that would severely f*ck up the lore. 

It wasn't in RDR1.  

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Cutter De Blanc

Yes it was.

Edited by Cutter De Blanc

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BretMaverick777
Just now, Cutter De Blanc said:

Yes, it was.

The Massacre?

No.

It wasn't.

It was a newspaper article.

 

In RDR2, it became a campfire tale and rumors. 

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Cutter De Blanc

No, Blackwater the city. Perhaps you quoted the wrong post

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BretMaverick777
2 minutes ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

No, Blackwater the city. Perhaps you quoted the wrong post

No, I assumed we were all talking about the Massacre, since that's the subject  of this thread.  

 

Inference takes precedence over semantics. 

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Cutter De Blanc
Just now, BretMaverick777 said:

No, I assumed we were all talking about the Massacre, since that's the subject  of this thread.  

 

Inference takes precedence over semantics. 

That was however not the subject of the post you had quoted

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BretMaverick777
6 minutes ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

That was however not the subject of the post you had quoted

Cutter? Go to bed. 😝

 

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3Prcntr
8 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

if you blacked the first game then you would know the size of it......lol what are they supposed to do make the city 5x bigger than the city in rd1 which is way in the future?

Already been asked if I played RDR1 and said it was a long time ago so I didn't remember blackwater... literally a couple posts down from the one you quoted. Thanks.

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HOW'S ANNIE?

Semi off topic, but are people assuming the ferry job in Blackwater is supposed to be the actual Blackwater Massacre mentioned in RDR 1? I've for a long time assumed they were two separate incidents considering it's mentioned that Landon Ricketts was involved in the actual Blackwater Massacre (thus resulting in his asylum to Mexico). Unless you can spin something really creative, no way can you convince me that Ricketts was on that boat with Dutch and co.

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Gray-Hand

Ricketts was on the side of the law for the Blackwater Massacre.  He’s a retired lawman, and he ended up in Mexico of his own free will.

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Cutter De Blanc

I bet Ricketts killed both of the Calender brothers and Jenny singlehandedly 

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dognuts

Wouldn't it be weird for John to bond so much with Ricketts years later if they were on separate sides of this huge massacre.

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Gray-Hand

Maybe, but on the other hand:

1.  John didn’t tell Ricketts he was a member of the Van Der Linde Gang ( if I remember correctly), so there was no reason for Ricketts to be twitchy about that.

2.  John was hunting down two members of the Van Der Linde Gang at the time he met Ricketts, so that would probably have put him on Ricketts good side, if it had even come up.

3.  They were both pretty useful to each other.

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BretMaverick777
1 hour ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

I bet Ricketts killed both of the Calender brothers and Jenny singlehandedly 

Well, we know Agent Milton bragged to Arthur (Jack's Day Out Fishing) about murderizing Mac, so there's that; whoever shot Davey and Jenny weren't that great a shot, since both of them survived all the way to Colter.   I don't think Ricketts would be that poor a shot, tbh....just saiyan. 

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BretMaverick777
2 hours ago, HOW'S ANNIE? said:

Semi off topic, but are people assuming the ferry job in Blackwater is supposed to be the actual Blackwater Massacre mentioned in RDR 1? I've for a long time assumed they were two separate incidents considering it's mentioned that Landon Ricketts was involved in the actual Blackwater Massacre (thus resulting in his asylum to Mexico). Unless you can spin something really creative, no way can you convince me that Ricketts was on that boat with Dutch and co.

Yeah, I'll be honest:  for years, a lot of us assumed the Heidi McCourt ferry robbery took place in 1906 and resulted in the break-up of the gang.  I know I'm not the only one who subscribed to that theory, because there were lots of RDR1 YT vids about it.   I'm not entirely sure it's not a retcon, either....haven't looked into the details that much.  

 

One interesting note is that Arthur drew that ferry in the opening pages of his journal:

 

djcrz3i.jpg

 

...and it *slightly* resembles the Grand Korrigan based out of St. Denis, the showboat where Dutch, Javier, Trelawny and Strauss shot their way out of a high stakes poker game:

nLp2c3W.jpg

Both have a very similar design -- side-wheelers, smokestacks identical except for the banner advertising the poker tournament, wheelhouse in the same location. 

 

That's opposed to RDR1's riverboats, the Morningstar ferry and the Serendipity shipwreck....both are stern-wheelers, and clearly a different model than the one in Arthur's journal. 

5YQwBua.jpg

HgQiBhJ.jpg

 

 

Maybe the Korrigan is just a larger showboat version of the ferry Dutch hit....which could have easily been the Calumet, Heartland, Rhodes or Van Horn.  Hard to say, but apparently, the riverboat company chose to switch from side-wheelers to stern-wheelers between 1907 and 1911. 

 

7gyJeFm.jpg

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Rammer2k

Prolly been said many times, but I always compare the Blackwater Heist to the beginning of GTA V in North Yankton.  Both pretty much sets everything in motion for the rest of the game.  Of course, just as a lot of people had hoped Rocstar would release a DLC for that heist, I doubt they'll do a expansion for the Blackwater Robbery as well.

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BretMaverick777
12 minutes ago, Rammer2k said:

Prolly been said many times, but I always compare the Blackwater Heist to the beginning of GTA V in North Yankton.  Both pretty much sets everything in motion for the rest of the game.  Of course, just as a lot of people had hoped Rocstar would release a DLC for that heist, I doubt they'll do a expansion for the Blackwater Robbery as well.

Well, the obvious difference being you actually *play out* the North Yankton heist at the very beginning of GTA V, so there can be no doubt as to what happened.  But yeah

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FreeMaxB585
On 12/17/2018 at 12:13 AM, 3Prcntr said:

Already been asked if I played RDR1 and said it was a long time ago so I didn't remember blackwater... literally a couple posts down from the one you quoted. Thanks.

 

ok well simple logic or a google search could point you in that direction. I mean its in that area so use some common sense

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Oldsport

i also thought blackwater would be bigger in this game and yes, i played the first game religously. i feel like it would only be right for them to make it bigger, like how gta v updated los santos from gta sa. but its literally copy and paste from the first game, minus some buildings. they did add more houses on the outskirt of the city, idk why they couldnt add more buidings to make it feel more like a city

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BretMaverick777
13 minutes ago, Oldsport said:

i also thought blackwater would be bigger in this game and yes, i played the first game religously. i feel like it would only be right for them to make it bigger, like how gta v updated los santos from gta sa. but its literally copy and paste from the first game, minus some buildings. they did add more houses on the outskirt of the city, idk why they couldnt add more buidings to make it feel more like a city

RDR2 takes place in 1899, RDR1 in 1911.   Blackwater is supposed to be a growing town, an instrument of progress in the West (for better or worse).   If anything, RDR2 Blackwater should have been a physically smaller town than its RDR1 counterpart.   1899 shows a town under construction, and includes a lot of temporary camps for the construction workers and (presumably) railroad workers.   Still puzzling that we don't see any sign of those 1911 railroads getting any closer to West Elizabeth or New Austin by 1907, though.   Roanoke Ridge features a blink-and-you'll-miss-it (I missed it) "impact area" three-part storyline with the Central Union Railroad going up along a certain stretch of the hills, but there's no such area in Marston Country.   The 1907 map will even give you a location for where the Pacific Union Railroad Camp from RDR1 is supposed to be, but it's just not there.   I'm guessing they're saving all this evolution of the map for RDO, but I don't know anymore....the more I see of Online, the less I see any kind of long-term strategy for the future of the game at all, tbh.

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FreeMaxB585
9 hours ago, BretMaverick777 said:

RDR2 takes place in 1899, RDR1 in 1911.   Blackwater is supposed to be a growing town, an instrument of progress in the West (for better or worse).   If anything, RDR2 Blackwater should have been a physically smaller town than its RDR1 counterpart.   1899 shows a town under construction, and includes a lot of temporary camps for the construction workers and (presumably) railroad workers.   Still puzzling that we don't see any sign of those 1911 railroads getting any closer to West Elizabeth or New Austin by 1907, though.   Roanoke Ridge features a blink-and-you'll-miss-it (I missed it) "impact area" three-part storyline with the Central Union Railroad going up along a certain stretch of the hills, but there's no such area in Marston Country.   The 1907 map will even give you a location for where the Pacific Union Railroad Camp from RDR1 is supposed to be, but it's just not there.   I'm guessing they're saving all this evolution of the map for RDO, but I don't know anymore....the more I see of Online, the less I see any kind of long-term strategy for the future of the game at all, tbh.

 

pretty much this. also massive cities have way more police. it would have been stupid for the gang to try and pull off a massive heist where there is way more guards and more witnesses. Yes they did end up trying in St Denis when they were out of options but Blackwater was a safer bet which is why they chose it

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