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a z

WTF happened in Blackwater?

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Deadman2112
40 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

What kind of psychotropic babble is all this about, again...?

Really not understanding you at all.   Maybe you could use spoiler tags instead of circumlocution, or just DM me.   Because all of this, the above is....:blink:

No need...

I'm just LOL

 

Carry on...

Edited by Deadman2112

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BretMaverick777
2 minutes ago, Deadman2112 said:

No need...

I'm just LOL

 

Carry on...

No, I'll bite.

Just answer me this: 

A game that ends with a bank robbery and someone accidentally gets killed.  Presumably, I dunno.  

Which game are you talking about....?   Because if it's any game with the words "Red Dead" in the title, you're nowhere close.   So what am I missing?

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Deadman2112
54 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

No, I'll bite.

Just answer me this: 

A game that ends with a bank robbery and someone accidentally gets killed.  Presumably, I dunno.  

Which game are you talking about....?   Because if it's any game with the words "Red Dead" in the title, you're nowhere close.   So what am I missing?

I don't care what the title is.

They change the names of movies all the time.

 

Car, trucks, bikes, and pretty much...

Well, everything. Hell they even put things in backwards order like the story of this game.

 

What?

So your saying the same can't be applied to a game? lol

 

Really?

Come on 😕. Really? 😶😶😶

That doesn't even make sense in the twilight zone. lol 😂😂😂

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

What kind logic is that?

What are you are using there? 😂😂

 

If the story is the same 

 

It's the same...

 

If I choose to to call it a red flower and you choose to call it a rose...

The name Doesn't make it any less the same thing.

Come on you have to be pulling my leg right?

I sure hope so .:blink:

 

...but hay, thanks for the good laugh. I really did find it entertaining. 😀😉

 

Moooseying on lol

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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BretMaverick777
Just now, Deadman2112 said:

 

Moooseying on lol

 

Okay.  Stay cool with that smoke, I think you got laced.   Don't be trippin

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Edward Nashton

 

1 hour ago, BretMaverick777 said:

Actually...

Arthur wasn't "rattled" by the incident at all, since he wasn't there.  Nor was Hosea.   But the fact that neither Dutch nor anyone else wants to simply explain WTF happened causes them to start doubting Dutch.   Like, dude, we've ridden together as the Three Amigos for 22 years, and now you can't confide in us a simple debriefing on a big score that went wrong....?   Hell, if I was Arthur or Hosea either one, I would've been pissed and ditched Dutch (ha) until he came straight with it.  

“Upset”, “disturbed” what have you. Whether he was there or not isn’t really the point I was trying to make. He was bothered by the aftermath of the Blackwater heist. From there I could imagine how bad it could have been. I really didn’t need any more exposition beyond that because, as I stated earlier, I like it when stories do that sort of thing. Again, this all comes down to preference.

Edited by Edward Nashton
Phone stuff

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Deadman2112
14 minutes ago, Edward Nashton said:

 

“Upset”, “disturbed” what have you. Whether he was there or not isn’t really the point I was trying to make. He was bothered by the aftermath of the Blackwater heist. From there I could imagine how bad it could have been. I really didn’t need any more exposition beyond that because, as I stated earlier, I like it when stories do that sort of thing. Again, this all comes down to preference.

Ok I can respect that but his point trying to dismiss mine simply because of the name made no sense at all...

 

I edited my post post above explaining this.

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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SneakyDeaky

What happened is I spent the whole game thinking (hoping?) the ferry heist and Blackwater Massacre were two different events. I had this fantasy throughout that at some point the gang would desperately return to Blackwater to recover the gang's savings. When you think of all the crazy heists you do late in the game, returning to Blackwater doesn't sound anymore crazy. Wasn't the pinkertons moving around the country following Dutch's trail anyway? Isn't it said they had the whole town of Van Horn under siege late in chapter 6? Perhaps the gang could have distracted them and lured the pinkertons to one location while the rest of the gang went back to Blackwater.

This would lead to the famous Blackwater Massacre we all read about in the in-game newspapers. The law and Landon Ricketts defending the town against the Van De Linde gang. Then wouldn't you know who won the pony? The O'driscol's turn up to ambush the gang, leading to a hellish three way shootout on the streets of Blackwater. Numerous law and gang members die, some of the Van Der Linde gang survive, the obvious members, and manage to escape to New Austin. Arthur's redemption story still plays out the same but the massacre is one more burden he has to bare in his dying moments. 

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Deadman2112

@SneakyDeaky

 

True...

No doubt, a revisit to that event would clear a lot of things up and be a nice addition.

 

...and who knows. Maybe discussions like this might prompt them to make that content. One can hope.

 

...can't speak for anyone but myself, but I know I'd through my vote in for it.

 

My only argument to this is...

To say it is an unwritten event is being dismissive of an important fact.

 

Name or not...

I played that game and remember the events happening. Sorry that some of you didn't. I personally think that sucks because even in spite of the limitations in technology at the time it really was a good game.

 

...lol maybe a little cheese, but good none the less.

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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Meekail

Does anyone know what the "Gang Savings" mean on Arthur's journal? There seem to be more adding up as the story progresses. 

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SneakyDeaky
8 minutes ago, Meekail said:

Does anyone know what the "Gang Savings" mean on Arthur's journal? There seem to be more adding up as the story progresses. 

There's the savings in Blackwater. There's the camp funds. And there are also the gang saving's that are apparently hidden outside of camp in an undisclosed location. After a mission, it splits your take between gang saving's, half goes to that, the other half is split between the members who did the robbery. So if Arthur and Sean rob a homestead, and get a $600 take from that, $300 goes to the gang savings, the other $300 is split between Arthur and Sean.

 

At least, that's what I think is going on.

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jje1000

I'm perfectly fine with the Blackwater incident being left to our own minds. It's one of those things we're supposed to come to conclusions on by ourselves.

 

But I'd still like an Arthur in New Austin chapter, right before Blackwater.

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Harmonica

I wonder if the Blackwater heist was originally how the game started? A heist/shootout followed by a chase would have been a great start to the game, similar to the start of GTA V.

 

I was looking at the leaked map from 2 years ago and it lists Hanging Dog Ranch as one of the gang's base camps, so maybe that's where they were based during their activities in West Elizabeth. 

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BretMaverick777
49 minutes ago, jje1000 said:

I'm perfectly fine with the Blackwater incident being left to our own minds. It's one of those things we're supposed to come to conclusions on by ourselves.

 

But I'd still like an Arthur in New Austin chapter, right before Blackwater.

Seriously, I saw the writers give themselves a perfect excuse to get Arthur to New Austin.  The "remedy" for TB in those days was to send the patient to a hot, dry climate so they could clear their lungs.   The medical science is wonky nowadays, but this would have been a great time to send Arthur off to the desert.  Even on his own.  

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Tonesta
3 hours ago, BretMaverick777 said:

Arthur wasn't "rattled" by the incident at all, since he wasn't there.  Nor was Hosea.   But the fact that neither Dutch nor anyone else wants to simply explain WTF happened causes them to start doubting Dutch.   Like, dude, we've ridden together as the Three Amigos for 22 years, and now you can't confide in us a simple debriefing on a big score that went wrong....?   Hell, if I was Arthur or Hosea either one, I would've been pissed and ditched Dutch (ha) until he came straight with it.  

Honestly, my answer to this is that I don't think Dutch really understood what happened in Blackwater.

The guy clearly has grand delusions of being a great leader, a criminal mastermind, and Robin Hood figure - fighting the oppression of progress, robbing the rich and serving the less fortunate. He doesn't doubt himself, or his cause, or that they're going to get rich and go and live a free life (out West, then in Tahiti, then wherever......)

 

But then Blackwater happens, and not only was their robbery a horrific failure, not only are they now on the run and being forced back east - but he himself has snapped, and killed an innocent woman in cold blood.

This act doesn't fit with his own image of himself as the great benefactor, so he can't process it. He ignores it and tries to sweep it under the carpet. But the doubts begin there, and fester and ultimately lead to paranoia, more bad deeds, more killings and madness.

 

I think some of the other characters do try and explain what happened - but all they see from their perspective is "Robbery went wrong. Dutch killed an innocent woman". They're just shocked and confused by the whole episode.

 

 

On the general point, I think it makes thematic sense for Arthur not to be at the massacre - because he is supposed to be fiercely loyal at the beginning and only begin to have larger and larger doubts about Dutch as the story goes on.

But he's also deep down a decent human being, so whilst he can explain away hearing about Dutch being a murdering psychopath (Dutch must had a reason; other people must have seen it wrong etc. etc.), he wouldn't have been able to explain away seeing it - and it would have brought that conflict to the front and center much sooner than the story wanted it to.

 

Plus, starting with a big heist would've just been repeating what they did in GTA V.......

 

 

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Harmonica
8 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

Seriously, I saw the writers give themselves a perfect excuse to get Arthur to New Austin.  The "remedy" for TB in those days was to send the patient to a hot, dry climate so they could clear their lungs.   The medical science is wonky nowadays, but this would have been a great time to send Arthur off to the desert.  Even on his own.  

Yeah, I really thought this was how New Austin and the Blackwater money would come into the story. Sooner or later I expected Dutch to say "it's time to stop running, lets go back to Blackwater, get our money, and head west where Arthur can live out his remaining years". Going back to Blackwater would obviously be a suicide mission, but I really thought that would be Dutch's great plan. 

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BretMaverick777
28 minutes ago, Harmonica said:

I wonder if the Blackwater heist was originally how the game started? A heist/shootout followed by a chase would have been a great start to the game, similar to the start of GTA V.

 

I was looking at the leaked map from 2 years ago and it lists Hanging Dog Ranch as one of the gang's base camps, so maybe that's where they were based during their activities in West Elizabeth. 

Hanging Dog was one of those half-camps, red/white....they were enemy gang hideouts, but you were supposed to be able to move in after you cleared them out.  Shady Belle and Beaver Hollow are examples.   Hanging Dog -- which was always an enemy camp, both in 1899 and 1907 -- was supposed to become a caravan camp, but didn't.  Dewberry Creek and the Criard Slaughterhouse were supposed to be, too, but got shelved. 

 

But yeah, the fact that Hanging Dog was mapped as a gang camp in 2016 means that there were apparently plans to move the gang to Big Valley at some point.   R* may have simply decided it interfered with their Wagons East theme....they wanted the gang to keep traveling east until they ran out of land, before ultimately breaking up.  A sort of conscious reversal of the typical Wild West theme of heading West.

Edited by BretMaverick777

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Nulla Lex Ink.

Was it ever confirmed that the ferry heist and the Blackwater Massacre were one in the same, or is that just an assumption made based on the game and the event taking place in 1899? I haven't read all the newspapers yet so it might have been mentioned in there, but unless it's in that I don't recall any indications that they were the same event.

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Nutduster
1 minute ago, Nulla Lex Ink. said:

Was it ever confirmed that the ferry heist and the Blackwater Massacre were one in the same, or is that just an assumption made based on the game and the event taking place in 1899? I haven't read all the newspapers yet so it might have been mentioned in there, but unless it's in that I don't recall any indications that they were the same event.

 

On the basis of the gang leaving Blackwater before RDR2 and then never returning, it is now fair to assume they are the same event.  IIRC, it was a little less clear in RDR.

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Nulla Lex Ink.
1 minute ago, Nutduster said:

 

On the basis of the gang leaving Blackwater before RDR2 and then never returning, it is now fair to assume they are the same event.  IIRC, it was a little less clear in RDR.

Is there anything else that points to that though? I mean, don't get me wrong, it is a fair assumption, but it doesn't seem like anything else points to it. Couldn't it be they're two different events, and Blackwater was just having a VERY bad year?

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Harmonica
18 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

Hanging Dog was one of those half-camps, red/white....they were enemy gang hideouts, but you were supposed to be able to move in after you cleared them out.  Shady Belle and Beaver Hollow are examples.   Hanging Dog -- which was always an enemy camp, both in 1899 and 1907 -- was supposed to become a caravan camp, but didn't.  Dewberry Creek and the Criard Slaughterhouse were supposed to be, too, but got shelved. 

 

But yeah, the fact that Hanging Dog was mapped as a gang camp in 2016 means that there were apparently plans to move the gang to Big Valley at some point.   R* may have simply decided it interfered with their Wagons East theme....they wanted the gang to keep traveling east until they ran out of land, before ultimately breaking up.  A sort of conscious reversal of the typical Wild West theme of heading West.

Maybe they originally fled from Blackwater to Hanging Dog in the opening mission before being driven northeast to Colter. As you've outlined, it seems they may have originally changed camps a bit more often. 

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Smokewood

Isn't it obvious?

Micha set them up, he has been a rat since he joined the gang. 

In fact - he may be a plant.

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BretMaverick777
26 minutes ago, Smokewood said:

Isn't it obvious?

Micha set them up, he has been a rat since he joined the gang. 

In fact - he may be a plant.

Eh, I kinda doubt his snitchery goes back that far.   I think the only interactions he has with the Pinkertons is just enough to satisfy his own schemes; and in the grand scheme of...schemes, it seems like the only thing Micah really cares about all along is getting that Blackwater money.   He told them just enough to put them on Dutch's trail at Beaver Hollow, and that was enough to get Dutch OFF the trail to Tahiti.  (By way of Guarma.)  Once the Gang got thinned out, and Dutch was made to forget about this nonsense about trying to flee the country, Micah was able to steer his master/servant back to the task at hand:   recovering the Blackwater loot. 

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SAS_Intruder

What if there is a typo or mistake on Rockstar end? 22 were killed total, 3 gang members and 19 lawmen/civilian. I find it strange that we have names of three members and 22-3=19 number of lawmen killed. Honestly, town isn't that big and Dutch gang is pretty skilled in gunfight.  How many lawmen would have to be in the first place for Dutch to lose 22 men compared only to 19 lawmen?  At least 100?

 

 

Edited by SAS_Intruder

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BretMaverick777
23 minutes ago, SAS_Intruder said:

What if there is a typo or mistake on Rockstar end? 22 were killed total, 3 gang members and 19 lawmen/civilian. I find it strange that we have names of three members and 22-3=19 number of lawmen killed. Honestly, town isn't that big and Dutch gang is pretty skilled in gunfight.  How many lawmen would have to be in the first place for Dutch to lose 22 men compared only to 19 lawmen?  At least 100?

 

 

That's why I don't think those other "outlaws" are anything to do with Dutch's Gang.   Besides, Dutch and Arthur and company would have been mourning not just 3 deaths, but 22....Colter would be full of frozen crosses.  

 

That's why I'm pretty sure the other outlaws are hired goons.  Mercenaries employed by whoever was carrying all the cash on that ship.  And again:  Cornwall is likely to be that person.

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Fluffy Sock
2 hours ago, SAS_Intruder said:

What if there is a typo or mistake on Rockstar end? 22 were killed total, 3 gang members and 19 lawmen/civilian. I find it strange that we have names of three members and 22-3=19 number of lawmen killed. Honestly, town isn't that big and Dutch gang is pretty skilled in gunfight.  How many lawmen would have to be in the first place for Dutch to lose 22 men compared only to 19 lawmen?  At least 100?

 

 

 

I'm reading it's 22 outlaws to 15, mostly lawmen with a few civilians. The only strange thing I see is 22 (Callander Brothers and Jenny are probably included, the rest should be hired guns either by Dutch or the ferry owner) and 15 aren't big numbers compared to what Arthur does against other gangs and lawmen during the game. If the Blackwater Massacre is a massacre, The bank robbery at St. Denis is a genocide. But whatever, most of  the gameplay deaths aren't really canon, the 37 of Blackwater are. 

Edited by Fluffy Sock

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a z

I find it easy to assume the actual death count is higher simply because the legend grew as newpapers wanted to sell more copies.  Or rather, that's how Rockstar could retcon numbers if they ever authored the event.

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MCMXCII

RDR1 describes the Blackwater Massacre in a newspaper.

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IceD34ler

Maybe they are planning on releasing an "Addon" where you can actually play that Blackwater Mission as a "prequel".

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coach_wargo
On 12/11/2018 at 4:30 PM, alz said:

I find it easy to assume the actual death count is higher simply because the legend grew as newpapers wanted to sell more copies.  Or rather, that's how Rockstar could retcon numbers if they ever authored the event.

 

This is how I see it, it's like the line from the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." Whatever is in the papers needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Yellow journalism is a trope that R* plays on in the entire legendary gunslingers side quest, so why should we accept a newspaper report to 100% true? 

 

All the gang knows for sure is that three of theirs were killed, Sean was captured, and Dutch killed an innocent woman. Arthur tries to piece it all together, but is only getting bits and pieces from everyone's differing perspectives. The later events get worse and worse, but I take that be part of Dutch's Robin Hood veneer falling off. Blackwater was the first act that caused gang members to begin questioning him. By the end Dutch is fighting anyone who stands in his way. Blackwater is the starting point of Dutch's slide into madness.

 

 

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Journey_95
On 12/11/2018 at 4:34 AM, BretMaverick777 said:

It was a mystery 8 years ago.  RDR2 at least promised closure and answers.  It didn't. 

 

I get that some mysteries, particularly of the horror and sci-fi variety, are best left unanswered.  But this is a major plot point that became even more muddled in RDR2.   There should be no reason that a whole lot of somebodies shouldn't have a definitive answer about the deets of a ferry robbery gone horribly wrong.  It ain't rocket science; it's a robbery.

No RDR2 never "promised" to resolve that. I don't think Blackwater is any more special than the later failures of the gang, it's just the start of it. You are acting as if there is some huge mystery there when it really isn't. We don't see it in the game because it would make Dutch too clearly "bad" from the get go, it's better to get invested and then have him gradually get worse. For Arthur and the player

 

I would still like some story DLC (mostly so we can explore the original map with Arthur) about it but it's not necessary.

 

On 12/11/2018 at 6:52 AM, 3Prcntr said:

All I know, is Blackwater was a HUGE let down. Same with New Austin. I was expecting a decent sized city, maybe bigger than Saint Denis the way they bragged about all the money they took and trouble they got in. That town was no bigger than Rhodes... And New Austin... Nothing there but herbs, pelts and an annoying Sheriff.

I don't see a third playthough in my future. I am only playing through a second time to get all the missed timeline features and piece it all together again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but Blackwater was a joke. The whole gunned down instantly thing for entering a small town like that... yea right... I'd expect more resistance from Valentine.

Blackwater isn't part of the main story, same for New Austin. They only become important in the epilogue so Rockstar didn't put much content there. The rest of the map is great and what really counts.

Edited by Journey_95

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