Gambling needs to be added or online will be a failure

[Dr.Rosenthal]

The thing is, I honestly can't see why pretend gambling would be so harmful to partake in while we chug pretend killing, pretend dismembering, pretend robbing, speeding, f*cking, and bludgeoning on a daily basis already. After a session of literally blowing heads off of NPC's and stabbing their bodies;

"Oh my god, there's Poker in this game and it's not even real! We will without a doubt become addicted to such lewd customs and our lives tarnished with sin for all eternity!"

 

But, like many of you have said, there could well be legal issues and laws differing between countries. Though I still maintain that it's not actually gambling when you can't exchange your winnings back to real cash.

[kenmy13999]

14 minutes ago, KingBen said:

There’s nothing those countries can do about in game gambling. You can gamble in single player already. It’s no different in online except you’re doing it with other players. 

There's nothing R* or any other developer for that matter can do if a country decides that something in the game is against their laws, whether it's gambling or something else. 

I don't see a problem with gambling in a game and especially not if you can't use real cash for it but saying a country can't do anything about it is just wrong in pretty much every way. Just ask EA

[Revrico]

20 minutes ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

The thing is, I honestly can't see why pretend gambling would be so harmful to partake in while we chug pretend killing, pretend dismembering, pretend robbing, speeding, f*cking, and bludgeoning on a daily basis already. After a session of literally blowing heads off of NPC's and stabbing their bodies;

"Oh my god, there's Poker in this game and it's not even real! We will without a doubt become addicted to such lewd customs and our lives tarnished with sin for all eternity!"

 

But, like many of you have said, there could well be legal issues and laws differing between countries. Though I still maintain that it's not actually gambling when you can't exchange your winnings back to real cash.

See, that's called "common sense". It has no place or bearing in the rule of law, even though it should. 

[Rithrius]

28 minutes ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

The thing is, I honestly can't see why pretend gambling would be so harmful to partake in while we chug pretend killing, pretend dismembering, pretend robbing, speeding, f*cking, and bludgeoning on a daily basis already. After a session of literally blowing heads off of NPC's and stabbing their bodies;

"Oh my god, there's Poker in this game and it's not even real! We will without a doubt become addicted to such lewd customs and our lives tarnished with sin for all eternity!"

 

But, like many of you have said, there could well be legal issues and laws differing between countries. Though I still maintain that it's not actually gambling when you can't exchange your winnings back to real cash.

Because gambling is considered addictive, whereas killing, dismembering, robbing, speeding, f*cking, and bludgeoning aren't necessarily considered as such... There are people who genuinly struggle with addiction problems or could develop them when introduced to something commonly considered to be addictive.

That said, impressionable or easily fooled people could just as easily re-enact something they did in a videogame, no matter what it is, but it just doesn't happen often so it's not considered a priority problem, whereas gambling problems are incredibly common and could easily be re-enacted by playing this game without immediate concequences.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Rithrius

[Dr.Rosenthal]

@Rithrius But, like many have already mentioned, in that case we shouldn't see it in SP either? I have problems wrapping my head around this and I'm just trying to find a reasonable explanation and none seems very satisfactory as of yet...

 

Addition: I agree with your reasoning about gambling being different to the other stuff though - gambling addiction is widespread and problematic and it's socially acceptable to an extent in everyday life whereas dismembering bodies is not, so I think you're right about that reasoning, no question.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Dr.Rosenthal

[Rithrius]

1 minute ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

@Rithrius But, like many have already mentioned, in that case we shouldn't see it in SP either? I have problems wrapping my head around this and I'm just trying to find a reasonable explanation and none seems very satisfactory as of yet...

 

And I have no idea why no one complains about gambling in single player games either. It's mind-boggling.

[Bakkerbaard]

9 hours ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

But, like many have already mentioned, in that case we shouldn't see it in SP either? I have problems wrapping my head around this and I'm just trying to find a reasonable explanation and none seems very satisfactory as of yet...

This touches on the fact that games are also venturing into the art territory and that's a territory where anything goes. 

I can take phone pictures of girl pleasuring me orally and I will get banned from whatever platform I post them on. However, if I paint a picture of a girl giving me oral pleasure with virtuose brushstrokes and I sign it with fancy curly letters, put a frame on it, I can stick it in a gallery and get the people that banned me from the other platform to pay a couple of thousand bucks for it and hang it on the wall over the sofa.

That's because an artist is expressing something and to censor that would be to censor free speech.

 

Now, back to videogames, things like Flower or the other one with all the sand from the same people have opened the door to this arguement wide and they're letting the other games in too. And why not? Which ones are art? Personally, I believe RDR2 is art, or at least artfull, and since SP would then be considered the expression of the artist(s), they can stick in whatever they want. 

Take off a head with a shotgun? Serves to show the horrors of wanton violence. Gambling, hold up a mirror to those people always wanting more and more money, or something?

 

Multiplayer, however, is a place where random people insert their own narrative into the world that was created for them and because they (forcibly) have to share it with other people it  ironically becomes a social forum instead of a form of art and it can't hide behind the "this is art" shield anymore. And at this point it also becomes susceptible to the pseudo laws on gambling.

 

I too would like to see poker and black jack and liar's dice in the game, but I'm guessing we're just gonna have to stick to hoping really hard.

I don't think the game will be a failure without it. Gambling that I can get my pelts to a butcher is chance enough for me.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Bakkerbaard

[KingBen]

19 hours ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

The thing is, I honestly can't see why pretend gambling would be so harmful to partake in while we chug pretend killing, pretend dismembering, pretend robbing, speeding, f*cking, and bludgeoning on a daily basis already. After a session of literally blowing heads off of NPC's and stabbing their bodies;

"Oh my god, there's Poker in this game and it's not even real! We will without a doubt become addicted to such lewd customs and our lives tarnished with sin for all eternity!"

 

But, like many of you have said, there could well be legal issues and laws differing between countries. Though I still maintain that it's not actually gambling when you can't exchange your winnings back to real cash.

 

That last sentence is why gambling will be added eventually. 1. You can’t exchange your winnings for real cash. 2. You can’t purchase in game cash with real money.

 

Gambling is already in the game in single player. There’s no difference between gambling in single player against NPC’s and gambling against other players of online.

[CosmicBuffalo]

1st, Multiplayer v single player, no real world cash at stake.   2nd, should because we sell playing cards to any kid, we also allow any kid into a casino.  3rd, Of course playing against people is way different, especially poker, and dominos.  These are arguably games of skill and certainly are hybrids of chance/skill.  Black Jack is even affected by other players in the real world.  In singles player, the games are actually set up to favor players to complete all the challenges imo.  

[Callahan44]

10 minutes ago, GenericGTAO said:

1st, Multiplayer v single player, no real world cash at stake.   2nd, should because we sell playing cards to any kid, we also allow any kid into a casino.  3rd, Of course playing against people is way different, especially poker, and dominos.  These are arguably games of skill and certainly are hybrids of chance/skill.  Black Jack is even affected by other players in the real world.  In singles player, the games are actually set up to favor players to complete all the challenges imo.  

1. If you can buy gold only and gamble with cash only,wheres the problem?

2. No. But kids arent even allowed to play this game,just like they arent allowed to enter casinos.

3. I never felt that way in sp.

[roggek]

Everybody is "assuming that gambling in online is against other online players".
What if we are playing against NPCs as in Single-player?

.

I hope that R* listen to our wishes and add poker and Black Jack in a future update...

Edited December 9, 2018 by roggek

[Callahan44]

Just now, roggek said:

Everybody is "assuming that gambling in online is against other online players".
What if we are playing against NPCs as in Single-player?

.

I hope that R* listen to our wishes and add poker and Black Jack in a future update...

It would suck.

[CosmicBuffalo]

2 minutes ago, Callahan44 said:

1. If you can buy gold only and gamble with cash only,wheres the problem?

2. No. But kids arent even allowed to play this game,just like they arent allowed to enter casinos.

3. I never felt that way in sp.

So you believe that gambling against the a computer is the same as against a person?  Are they gonna check your id every time you step up to the card table?  Gambling with ingame cash doesnt solve the dilemma that real world cash can be used to earn more in game cash and if youre are gonna gamble, then you are encouraged to buy all the ingame upgrades to earn more in game cash.  But I think its more of encouraging gambling than anything with other people.  Which is a rush.  Never had a rush playing against npcs.

[JumpingKentFlash]

About the potential legal issues: Isn’t it a quite easy fix for that? Just make it so you can’t use gold. It has to be cash gotten from the game. Seeing as we can’t exchange gold for cash, the money you spend gambling is not something you’ve bought with real money. And then add highroller gambling with a big buy-in on the boat in Saint Denis, as well as lower buy-ins at other places. Can’t see why that’d be so hard to fix, but of course that opens up a whole new headache with people who find out how to abuse it..... and R* can’t make any money with it this way (it’s basically a shuffling around of already earned cash between players). 

Maybe they already have a plan to put it in the game, or maybe not. If the player base starts to drop the game, adding gambling could be a Hail Mary for them. It could get players back. Writing this I’ve realised that I haven’t heard anything about any numbers of RDO so far. I wonder if it’s a success or a failure.

[kenmy13999]

4 hours ago, Callahan44 said:

 

2. No. But kids arent even allowed to play this game

 

Says who? Just because a game is rated 18 (in my country at least) doesn't mean that kids aren't allowed to play the game. They can't however  buy it but it's actually their parents that decides if they're allowed to play it or not 

Edited December 9, 2018 by kenmy13999

[KingBen]

30 minutes ago, roggek said:

Everybody is "assuming that gambling in online is against other online players".
What if we are playing against NPCs as in Single-player?

.

I hope that R* listen to our wishes and add poker and Black Jack in a future update...

There’s not even a 1% chance we won’t be playing against other players if they add gambling online. The whole point of online mode is to encourage players to play together.

Edited December 9, 2018 by KingBen

[We Are Ninja]

On 12/7/2018 at 11:06 AM, Money Over Bullsh*t said:

I think it's illegal for them to add gambling since the game contains (or rather will contain) microtransactions. Although its unlikely that you'd be able to bet gold bars you can still pay bought gold for items and stockpile your money for gambling which could be a problem. Obviously the best are small but they couldn't risk somebody becoming addicted to it and maxing out all their credit cards since it's not officially a gambling game - which would need to be classified adults only afaik.

T H I S.

 

The sh*tstorm that would ensue if some 9 yo maxed out mommy's credit card on gold bars trying to win enough for a Turkoman and a Mauser pistol... Even if it was only in-game money, the ramifications would still be bad.

Edited December 9, 2018 by We Are Ninja

[AlienTwo]

1 hour ago, kenmy13999 said:

Says who? Just because a game is rated 18 (in my country at least) doesn't mean that kids aren't allowed to play the game. They can't however not buy it but it's actually their parents that decides if they're allowed to play it or not 

That's literally what it means... 

[kenmy13999]

22 minutes ago, AlienTwo said:

That's literally what it means... 

Not sure what you mean with that? Are you saying that the 18 yo rating on a game literally means that kids aren't allowed to play the game? If so, I just explained in the post you quoted why it isn't so.. 

[TiberiusMcQueen]

1 hour ago, We Are Ninja said:

T H I S.

 

The sh*tstorm that would ensue if some 9 yo maxed out mommy's credit card on gold bars trying to win enough for a Turkoman and a Mauser pistol... Even if it was only in-game money, the ramifications would still be bad.

Which is why you don't let people use the microtransaction currency in the gambling games, it's that simple.

[Dr.Rosenthal]

More common sense logic:

 

1. Why would a 9-year old borrow his mum’s credit card to buy gold bars to gamble with to make money for a Mauser pistol when he could just borrow the card to buy gold bars to buy the gun with?

 

2. How many 9-year olds plays poker rather than just riding around shooting at people?

 

3. How many 9-year olds play Red Dead?

 

4. Why are we speaking about 9-year olds?

[BretMaverick777]

1 minute ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

More common sense logic:

 

1. Why would a 9-year old borrow his mum’s credit card to buy gold bars to gamble with to make money for a Mauser pistol when he could just borrow the card to buy gold bars to buy the gun with?

 

2. How many 9-year olds plays poker rather than just riding around shooting at people?

 

3. How many 9-year olds play Red Dead?

 

4. Why are we speaking about 9-year olds?

Exactly.   It's a non-issue. 

 

As people keep saying, just make gambling an in-game cash only activity.   And the game parameters can easily be set to pot limit, just like we do in real casinos.  Nobody gets an advantage bringing a million fake dollars to a $100 pot limit hold'em table.   The house can also force players to cash out at a certain limit, just like we do in real casinos.   You won $100 at blackjack game in the back of the saloon...?   Good for you.  Our bouncer will see you out now....don't come back for a week.  

[Accendo]

Meh. I can gamble very easily in real life, I don't particularly need it in RDO and would rather see them work on getting more missions and outlaw/gunslinger activities into the game first.

 

 

[AlienTwo]

50 minutes ago, kenmy13999 said:

Not sure what you mean with that? Are you saying that the 18 yo rating on a game literally means that kids aren't allowed to play the game? If so, I just explained in the post you quoted why it isn't so.. 

That's exactly what I mean. Most countries have no enforcement, but that doesn't mean it isn't against the rules. Any activity on the R* web pages requires age verification, as is supposed to be the purchase of the game. Purchase points are the easiest place to put the gatekeeper policies in, which is why it's there, but the reality of kids playing games is a part of why gambling is restricted, another part is the varying degrees of legality with gambling activities. 

 

Kids can't buy lotto tickets in the US, nor can they cash winners in. There aren't "supposed" to gamble, but no one is going to take the time to bust a kid for scratching the boxes.

[kenmy13999]

1 minute ago, AlienTwo said:

That's exactly what I mean. Most countries have no enforcement, but that doesn't mean it isn't against the rules. Any activity on the R* web pages requires age verification, as is supposed to be the purchase of the game. Purchase points are the easiest place to put the gatekeeper policies in, which is why it's there, but the reality of kids playing games is a part of why gambling is restricted, another part is the varying degrees of legality with gambling activities. 

 

Kids can't buy lotto tickets in the US, nor can they cash winners in. There aren't "supposed" to gamble, but no one is going to take the time to bust a kid for scratching the boxes.

FYI it isn't R* that determine what rating the games get in different countries (they don't do it here at least). 

And against what rules are you talking about? R* rules or something?

Discussing this is a relatively stupid thing to do because it may work different here in my country than it does in your country... 

A 12 year old kid isn't braking any law here in Norway by playing a game with a 18 yo rating as long the parents allow it. The kid and the parents are however braking the law if said 12 yo is drinking beer, even if the parents allow it. You see the difference? 

So you can believe you know what things literally means but you actually don't.

 

[BretMaverick777]

16 minutes ago, kenmy13999 said:

FYI it isn't R* that determine what rating the games get in different countries (they don't do it here at least). 

And against what rules are you talking about? R* rules or something?

Discussing this is a relatively stupid thing to do because it may work different here in my country than it does in your country... 

A 12 year old kid isn't braking any law here in Norway by playing a game with a 18 yo rating as long the parents allow it. The kid and the parents are however braking the law if said 12 yo is drinking beer, even if the parents allow it. You see the difference? 

So you can believe you know what things literally means but you actually don't.

 

The issue -- internationally -- isn't "contributing to the delinquency of a minor;" it's whether or not fake gambling can be legally considered real gambling.  Whether the player is 9 years old or 90, has no bearing on this discussion at all.   The only thing that is being looked at is whether or not a player is spending real money on a game of chance, which is essentially what loot boxes are.   Hence, all the legal controversy over loot boxes.    Using fake money to gamble for fake rewards does not constitute real gambling in the legal sense.

[We Are Ninja]

1 hour ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

More common sense logic:

 

1. Why would a 9-year old borrow his mum’s credit card to buy gold bars to gamble with to make money for a Mauser pistol when he could just borrow the card to buy gold bars to buy the gun with?

 

2. How many 9-year olds plays poker rather than just riding around shooting at people?

 

3. How many 9-year olds play Red Dead?

 

4. Why are we speaking about 9-year olds?

Some common sense answers.

 

"1. Why would a 9-year old borrow his mum’s credit card to buy gold bars to gamble with to make money for a Mauser pistol when he could just borrow the card to buy gold bars to buy the gun with?"

 

Why were 9 yo's eat Tide pods? Today's kids are strange creatures...

 

"2. How many 9-year olds plays poker rather than just riding around shooting at people?"

 

It'd make for an interesting poll. But given the fact the people are clamoring for money glitches, I could see players, regardless of age, gambling for a quick way to make big money. That, and most players want to experience everything that the game has to offer...

 

"3. How many 9-year olds play Red Dead?"

 

You must not play with game chat turned on...

 

"4. Why are we speaking about 9-year olds?"

 

It was merely an example. I was initially gonna go with 8, but then I thought 10. 9 was a nice average...

[kenmy13999]

12 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

The issue -- internationally -- isn't "contributing to the delinquency of a minor;" it's whether or not fake gambling can be legally considered real gambling.  Whether the player is 9 years old or 90, has no bearing on this discussion at all.   The only thing that is being looked at is whether or not a player is spending real money on a game of chance, which is essentially what loot boxes are.   Hence, all the legal controversy over loot boxes.    Using fake money to gamble for fake rewards does not constitute real gambling in the legal sense.

I'm actually not discussing whether fake gambling and yada yada yada whatever you are taking about, didn't bother reading it because it seems like you haven't read the previous posts of the one you were quoting. 

Someone said kids aren't allowed to play this game and I explained that was not necessarily the case and another felt the need to say that was wrong.. 

 

I agree that using fake money shouldn't be considered gambling and shouldn't fall under any gambling laws but if a country says it does, it's nothing you or I or anyone on this forum can do anything about. 

I don't consider lootboxes gambling either for that matter, if it was a possibility of you not getting anything from them, it would be gambling.. 

[KingBen]

2 hours ago, We Are Ninja said:

T H I S.

 

The sh*tstorm that would ensue if some 9 yo maxed out mommy's credit card on gold bars trying to win enough for a Turkoman and a Mauser pistol... Even if it was only in-game money, the ramifications would still be bad.

 

The ramifications wouldn’t be bad if it’s only in-game money. That same 9 year old could still gamble in single player if he wants. There’s no issues with adding gambling online.

[We Are Ninja]

1 hour ago, KingBen said:

 

The ramifications wouldn’t be bad if it’s only in-game money. That same 9 year old could still gamble in single player if he wants. There’s no issues with adding gambling online.

Eh. Clearly there are. This is R*' third or fourth massive foray into online sandboxing and they STILL haven't implemented gambling. We can kill NPCs and animals via all sorts of creative methods, and we've been able to drink, do drugs, rob banks, and bang hookers. But it appears that gambling poses some unique obstacles...