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Lets talk specifically about the "Money Lending and Other Sins" questline *spoilers*


RyuNova

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So I am coming to the end of this Questline and the game is trying to make me feel bad, like it has all the way through and all I can think is "No, f*ck them and their sob stories, if you don't want debt collectors breathing down your neck then don't pick up debts you cant repay"

They knew what they were getting into when they took the money and like Strauss says at the beginning of the quest line "debtors belong in prison", if they had borrowed the money from a reputable source the debtors would still have come and they would be legally put in prison.

I know its sad for some of them but I feel no pity.

Thoughts?

Edited by RyuNova
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I'm with you. I mean, just look at Strauss. You know he's a c*nt, and moneylending c*nts have some hard people behind them.

 

Piss off with your crying.

 

Although, you can get a big chunk of positive honor during those quests

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2 minutes ago, Rykjeklut said:

I'm with you. I mean, just look at Strauss. You know he's a c*nt, and moneylending c*nts have some hard people behind them.

 

Piss off with your crying.

 

Exactly. I get that they were in hard times but its their own fault that they borrowed money and ended up in harder times. Them sobbing and trying to pull on Arthur's heart strings is annoying. People like that never learn their lessons. A good beating or being left in the bed of your own making is the best lesson.

"Ohhh you're a bad man! You should feel ashamed of yourself!" Yea? Well f*ck you too Lady, you should feel ashamed of your husband for getting you into this debt.

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Just now, RyuNova said:

 

Exactly. I get that they were in hard times but its their own fault that they borrowed money and ended up in harder times. Them sobbing and trying to pull on Arthur's heart strings is annoying. People like that never learn their lessons. A good beating or being left in the bed of your own making is the best lesson.

"Ohhh you're a bad man! You should feel ashamed of yourself!" Yea? Well f*ck you too Lady, you should feel ashamed of your husband for getting you into this debt.

The best part of this story line is when you go to the Downes ranch the second time. Arthurs dialogue with the kid is just fantastic. And it felt so right.

 

You f*ck up, you pay for it.

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I had mixed feelings about the conclusion of that storyline. The early loansharking missions are a realistic part of the gang's activities, but I disliked the way the game makes a big thing out of it at the end. While I do pity the debtors, morally i think collecting the gang's loansharking debts was one of the least worst thing Author did in the game.

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1 minute ago, Rykjeklut said:

The best part of this story line is when you go to the Downes ranch the second time. Arthurs dialogue with the kid is just fantastic. And it felt so right.

 

You f*ck up, you pay for it.

 

"Wah wah, I hate you! You bad man!

No, prick. Your father/husband/whomever took out the debt is the bad man. Strauss is the bad man for preying on those in that situation but whoever took out the debt knowing they can't pay it back is the worst person.

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3 minutes ago, Harmonica said:

I had mixed feelings about the conclusion of that storyline. The early loansharking missions are a realistic part of the gang's activities, but I disliked the way the game makes a big thing out of it at the end. While I do pity the debtors, morally i think collecting the gang's loansharking debts was one of the least worst thing Author did in the game.

 

I was just thinking to myself I could understand Arthurs change of heart if Strauss had lent money to mentally or physically disabled people like Bertram or to small children or the really old. People that would never be able to understand let alone pay it back in the first place but the large majority of them were able bodied men able to work and I am supposed to feel bad they made the bad choice and the debts passed on to their poor poor wives?

2 minutes ago, Alexlecj said:

It doesn't fit well with the supposed Robin Hood philosophy of the gang.

 

If that had actually been present and prevalent at all in the game I would understand. It might have been once but when the player takes control they are just nasty thugs. Charles, Lenny and Hosea are about the only decent people but none of them have qualms about killing or robbing innocent people.

Charles has seen depravity and does not want to go there, Lenny is too young and starstruck to be properly nasty and Hosea is supposed to be the exact antithesis to Dutch

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Darealbandicoot
29 minutes ago, RyuNova said:

 

Exactly. I get that they were in hard times but its their own fault that they borrowed money and ended up in harder times. Them sobbing and trying to pull on Arthur's heart strings is annoying. People like that never learn their lessons. A good beating or being left in the bed of your own making is the best lesson.

"Ohhh you're a bad man! You should feel ashamed of yourself!" Yea? Well f*ck you too Lady, you should feel ashamed of your husband for getting you into this debt.

You just about killed my husband yourself even though he had a terminal disease that was killing him and would be dead soon anyway, but it's all YOUR fault!! 

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12 minutes ago, Darealbandicoot said:

You just about killed my husband yourself even though he had a terminal disease that was killing him and would be dead soon anyway, but it's all YOUR fault!! 

 

Stupid bint, if I had my way I would have kneecapped her for the way she looked down her nose as Arthur the second time. Don't shoot the messenger.

Dont get me wrong, I ain't a fool. I understand why Loansharks send strongmen instead of themselves and that they are paid to collect and not to think...my issue is with R* forcing us down this narrative that these people are innocent victims. You took out the debt, knowing the rules. Don;y try and make me feel bad.

If you wanted to do that then make them actually innocent.

Edited by RyuNova
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Lonely-Martin

I just think it's apt that Strauss is a poisonous cash grabber.

 

And when I got online, damn he did a number here. From such a deep and immersive story, to that.

 

Makes sense I guess. *shivers.

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22 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

I just think it's apt that Strauss is a poisonous cash grabber.

 

And when I got online, damn he did a number here. From such a deep and immersive story, to that.

 

Makes sense I guess. *shivers.

What happens online?

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BoulderFaceplant

Well if you play as a dishonorable Arthur, yeah the moral weight placed on his loan snarking makes no sense. But if you go the honorable route, only killing when necessary, then yeah, the loansharking is some of the most methodically vicious stuff he ever does. There’s something about beating a man and rummaging through his house that’s just terrible, even if he got himself in that mess. Also, keep in mind that Herr Strauss has a way of charming people into doing things they shouldn’t. 

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Lonely-Martin
27 minutes ago, Rykjeklut said:

What happens online?

It's sh*t. In almost every way.

 

Griefers are fully enabled. Pay to win crap. No choice but to tank honour to progress story there. Rank locking sticks and string with strong pricing (bow/rod). Buggy as f*ck, though expected as it is early days. No PvE sessions. A camp with a mind of its own moving around.

 

To be fair, I could go on all day but it'd vote me to tears. Still, gotta try while they're asking for feedback. Time will tell But they have to address much asap to get me yo say anything positive really. :)

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Are you guys all heartless bastards?

 

So it's okay for Strauss to see these people in dire need of help, offer them what they seem to desperately need, arms open, creepy smile on his face, and then f*ck them over so bad?

 

"It's your own damn fault for trusting him."

 

You guys have clearly never been in the sh*t. When desperate, some paths that you never would have considered taking otherwise seem like they're heaven's gift. If life keeps beating you down, a small ray of hope is what you'll grab onto, foolishly.

 

Have some goddamn empathy. Geez.

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58 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

It's sh*t. In almost every way.

 

Griefers are fully enabled. Pay to win crap. No choice but to tank honour to progress story there. Rank locking sticks and string with strong pricing (bow/rod). Buggy as f*ck, though expected as it is early days. No PvE sessions. A camp with a mind of its own moving around.

 

To be fair, I could go on all day but it'd vote me to tears. Still, gotta try while they're asking for feedback. Time will tell But they have to address much asap to get me yo say anything positive really. :)

I know it's sh*t, but you mentioned it in relation to Strauss.

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Nah Strauss was looking for certain desperate people in the first place. Probably knew people wouldn't be able to pay back and then they could collect back more. Strauss doesn't give a sh*t who it is or what may happen to them. The interest rate was probably high as well. 

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3 minutes ago, The FoolYT said:

Nah Strauss was looking for certain desperate people in the first place. Probably knew people wouldn't be able to pay back and then they could collect back more. Strauss doesn't give a sh*t who it is or what may happen to them. The interest rate was probably high as well. 

 

You are missing the point. We know Strauss is a bad man but these people took the deal and then have the audacity to call Arthur a bad person? They knew what they were getting into, they didn't have Arthur holding a gun to their heads when they made the deal.

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1 hour ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

Are you guys all heartless bastards?

 

So it's okay for Strauss to see these people in dire need of help, offer them what they seem to desperately need, arms open, creepy smile on his face, and then f*ck them over so bad?

 

"It's your own damn fault for trusting him."

 

You guys have clearly never been in the sh*t. When desperate, some paths that you never would have considered taking otherwise seem like they're heaven's gift. If life keeps beating you down, a small ray of hope is what you'll grab onto, foolishly.

 

Have some goddamn empathy. Geez.

This.

 

The people should never have taken loans from Strauss, but their desperation and naivete doesn't mean they aren't deserving of sympathy. 

 

Mr. Downes went to Strauss because he was terminally ill, had bills to pay, and lives in an era where there is no medical insurance and no safety net for poor families. Dutch's gang are like vultures in the way they are preying on these people.

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Gandalf In Space
3 minutes ago, The FoolYT said:

Nah Strauss was looking for certain desperate people in the first place. Probably knew people wouldn't be able to pay back and then they could collect back more. Strauss doesn't give a sh*t who it is or what may happen to them. The interest rate was probably high as well. 

 

And to add to that I believe it's hinted at by some small comments during the last set of Strauss missions that the terms weren't exactly agreed upon.

 

"I told him it would take me time to pay him back" or something along those lines. I was under the impression that's what caused Arthur to boot Strauss out of the camp- the realization that these were toxic loans on toxic terms.

 

Maybe I misunderstood.

 

Boy some of you folks... You know cash loan places today exist perpetuating a predatory circle of debt and are marketed directly towards people they don't think will pay back, right? Industry is semi-legal and definitely morally bankrupt.

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3 minutes ago, RyuNova said:

 

You are missing the point. We know Strauss is a bad man but these people took the deal and then have the audacity to call Arthur a bad person? They knew what they were getting into, they didn't have Arthur holding a gun to their heads when they made the deal.

Well i didn't see Arthur calling Strauss out for this early on at any point so he must have supported it considering he's part of the gang. He's even one of the top dudes so could have easily shut down that business but didn't choose to.

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13 minutes ago, The FoolYT said:

Well i didn't see Arthur calling Strauss out for this early on at any point so he must have supported it considering he's part of the gang. He's even one of the top dudes so could have easily shut down that business but didn't choose to.

 

There is a fair degree of hypocrisy in Arthur throwing Strauss out of camp in that what Arthur and the rest of the gang gets up to is no better. You can read a newspaper article about one of the bank robberies the gang does that mentions that many hardworking people who had their life savings in the bank had it wiped out. Not to mention all the widows and orphans they create every time the gang kills bank or train guards or lawmen...all of whom are just regular people doing what they have to do to keep food on the table. 

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15 minutes ago, The FoolYT said:

Well i didn't see Arthur calling Strauss out for this early on at any point so he must have supported it considering he's part of the gang. He's even one of the top dudes so could have easily shut down that business but didn't choose to.

 

He did question it to a certain degree. He made his distaste known but Strauss just laughed it off and he also had the blessing of Dutch and Hosea and Arthur was loyal and loved both dearly. 

 

Do you honestly think that chapter 1 or 2 Arthur would have disobeyed Dutch and thrown him out? You saw what happens to people that "break the rules". Even Micah was afraid to return to Dutch without a peace offering. 

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1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

 

There is a fair degree of hypocrisy in Arthur throwing Strauss out of camp in that what Arthur and the rest of the gang gets up to is no better. You can read a newspaper article about one of the bank robberies the gang does that mentions that many hardworking people who had their life savings in the bank had it wiped out. Not to mention all the widows and orphans they create every time the gang kills bank or train guards or lawmen...all of whom are just regular people doing what they have to do to keep food on the table. 

You miss the entire point of the game.

 

At that point, it's not hypocrisy on Arthur's behalf. It's Arthur finally, after decades of being misguided and used, realizing that what he believed in is morally wrong and an excuse to perpetrate vile, villainous acts. So many of you call Arthur a hypocrite for thinking he's better than the rest of the gang but he's the only one who does the right f*cking thing. He's the only one who manages to see the light of day and try to make up for his sins.

 

Is he better than them? Yes. Wholeheartedly. 

 

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5 hours ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

You miss the entire point of the game.

 

At that point, it's not hypocrisy on Arthur's behalf. It's Arthur finally, after decades of being misguided and used, realizing that what he believed in is morally wrong and an excuse to perpetrate vile, villainous acts. So many of you call Arthur a hypocrite for thinking he's better than the rest of the gang but he's the only one who does the right f*cking thing. He's the only one who manages to see the light of day and try to make up for his sins.

 

Is he better than them? Yes. Wholeheartedly. 

 

I did not miss the point of the game. I realize that is one of the beginning steps on Arthur's path of redemption. 

 

I'm just pointing out that Strauss was no worse than Dutch, or Micah, or Hosea, or Charles, or any other member of the gang including Arthur. They were as responsible for sowing misery as anything Strauss got up to, if not more so.

 

Arthur however does behave as if Strauss is worse, and in that he is being a tad hypocritical. That doesn't mean Strauss didn't deserve to go...just that Arthur is still a bit deluded in thinking that what he got up to (violent robberies) was somehow less morally bankrupt than shaking down debtors. After all Arthur goes on to commit more robberies after ejecting Strauss from the camp.

Edited by Scaeva
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@Scaeva

 

Arthur does commit robberies at that point but its all under Dutch's excuse to create some "noise". In fact, it seems like half the gang stops doing anything in Chapter 6. Everyone just mopes around, hoping they won't suddenly get shot in the heart by a Pinkerton.

 

To me, it seems Dutch, Micah, Strauss, Javier & Bill are the only ones willing to do anything criminally related at the end of the game when all hope is lost.

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1 hour ago, RyuNova said:

 

He did question it to a certain degree. He made his distaste known but Strauss just laughed it off and he also had the blessing of Dutch and Hosea and Arthur was loyal and loved both dearly. 

 

Do you honestly think that chapter 1 or 2 Arthur would have disobeyed Dutch and thrown him out? You saw what happens to people that "break the rules". Even Micah was afraid to return to Dutch without a peace offering. 

Not suggesting throwing him out just saying he valued highly by Dutch and Hosea and he could easily talk with them regarding Strauss if need be.

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10 hours ago, RyuNova said:

So I am coming to the end of this Questline and the game is trying to make me feel bad, ...

It's not just the Strauss thing.  The game spends hours and hours of cutscenes and travel dialog, with Arthur and the other characters whining incessantly about how guilty they feel, for being such amoral bastards, and for all the pain they've caused.  RDR2 has more self-reflection, introspection, regret for past bad choices, and navel-gazing guilt-tripping, than a million-word Russian novel.  

 

This self-flagellation even continues

Spoiler

with John Marston in the Epilogues. 

 

Plus, the hit-over-the-head lesson about the futility of revenge keeps getting shoved in our faces. 

 

Both RDRs seem to be Rockstar trying to make amends for the past mindless excesses of the GTA series, to reprogram their young, impressionable adolescent fans, with the message that violence and  bad intentions and lack of empathy are actually bad things; i.e., do what we say, not what we do, kind of thing. 

 

PS:  As is utterly obvious from the massive griefer population in Online video gaming, not to mention the Internet as a whole, aggro teen males probably DO need some moderating influences in their coming-of-age, zero empathy, societal misfitting, frustrating lives.  Don't know if their redemption will come via cinematic, guilty conscience video games.  Maybe.  

 

Rockstar has really folded over in the last decade or more, writing stories with self-doubting, sad-sack, wishy-washy protags, from GTA-SA, GTA IV and onwards.  The last good GTA protag was Tommy Vercetti.  I think everyone can agree on that.  😛

 

 

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9 hours ago, RyuNova said:

 

Stupid bint, if I had my way I would have kneecapped her for the way she looked down her nose as Arthur the second time. Don't shoot the messenger.

Dont get me wrong, I ain't a fool. I understand why Loansharks send strongmen instead of themselves and that they are paid to collect and not to think...my issue is with R* forcing us down this narrative that these people are innocent victims. You took out the debt, knowing the rules. Don;y try and make me feel bad.

If you wanted to do that then make them actually innocent.

It’s not that the people who take the loans are innocent victims - it’s that the gang is preying in people in financial distress and putting them in a worse situation as a result.  Those people would probably have been better off had Strauss never loaned them the money.  Two or three of them actually die as a pretty direct result of dealing with Arthur. That is a disproportionate price to pay for either the small sum of money borrowed, or their financial ineptitude.

 

It’s not like Strauss is a responsible lender loaning money to people only after having established that they have the ability to repay the principal and interest.  Rather he is lending money to desperate people at an interest rate he accepts that they will only be able to repay after being beaten by Arthur.  He has more experience in loansharking than his victims have in financial matters.  It’s crummy behaviour.

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