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TheSantader25

[SPOILERS] What Happened to Dutch?

What Happened to Dutch?   

84 members have voted

  1. 1. What Actually happened to Dutch?

    • He Became Who He Really Was
      44
    • He Changed
      40


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TheSantader25

The game seems to insist on that Dutch became who he really was instead of changing(becoming crazy). What's your take on this? 

 

IMO there's no such thing as "Who someone really is". We are all defined by our actions and actions come from thoughts and thoughts can change over time and based on experience. So I'd say he changed his thoughts and philosophy. Or he basically didn't believe the things he told himself over the years to justify his actions anymore and therefore lost confidence and ultimately lost his mind. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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Mach1bud

He just seems like a dude who tricks a bunch of people into being slaves for him on the back of empty promises just for his own monetary and egotistical gain. I don't think he is really crazy at all, except eventually he may have started to believe his own bullsh*t. Too deep to know where the line is between the lies and reality.

 

The same kind of thing that led to tyrannical Kings and leaders back in the early days of humans many thousands of years ago.

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HockeyMike24

This is a good question. As John and Arthur have different views on Dutch.

 

Arthur thought he changed and even held out hope to his last breath, while John thought he was always like this and the mask slipped. This is what I got from the story anyways.

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jje1000

I think these themes can also be reflected in Arthur, whose arc is seemingly set up in contrast to Dutch's story.

 

Of course, what happened likely falls somewhere between Dutch's true personality emerging and his character changing- the story provides evidence for both, IMO.

 

Edited by jje1000

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Lonely-Martin

The dude just wants everyone around him he can control and do it all so he can rest easy and dictate, trouble was others clocked on. I voted he bacame who he was as it gets worse in RDR, idle git. (Well written/acted though).

 

Still happens IRL, so I'd call him a Gadaffi or Kim. :)

Edited by Lonely-Martin

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HockeyMike24

From evidence gathered in Arthur's Journal and newspaper clippings pre-Blackwater they were basically a Robin Hood gang. Robbed banks and donated to Orphanages. Even when Dutch came across Sadie, a weak scared and mourning women. He took her into his care of a group of starving people he still needed to keep fed. I think Dutch just cracked under all the pressure and embraced being a ruthless outlaw as this is the easy route in this rapidly changing world.

 

I definitely think he changed. That's not to say he never had a huge ego or seen himself as some kind of savior. He was always an Outlaw, but he cared for his gang and the less fortunate. Until he didn't

Edited by HockeyMike24

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Oldsport

i thonk he became who he really was. dutch seems like a coward to me, if it was say, 1896 when dutch was really on top, i dont think hed save anyone from the gang without the help of someone else. he doesnt seem brave to me , he just all talk, so when he loses everyone his true colors show

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scottyy

I had the head canon of dementia or something similar.

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ThroatSlasher2

Only the best can keep their persona up even in dire times. When Dutch slowly started realizing that the gang was being driven into a hole (by him ironically), he let his guard down and showed everyone the kind of person he really was.

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Journey_95

Interesting discussion. Dutch is definitely one of the most compelling characters that Rockstar has created.

 

I think he changed, more interesting that way. Or at least he thought he cared for the Gang a lot but when things got worse his true nature was revealed (definitely don't think he had bad intentions from Day 1)

 

Hoses dying is one of the reasons he went crazy so fast too, he kept Dutch balanced.

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RayD70

Dutch was always a BS artist with delusions of grandeur. He was loyal and helpful to his people to the extent that it propped up his facade. But when the chips started falling, his true persona emerged. He was always Dutch first. And a little power hungry while being paranoid of even people close to him.

 

Drugs and alcohol do not make you a different person. They just peel away any inhibition and let your true self emerge. "I'm an angry, mean drunk." No. You're always an a-hole. You can just hide it better when sober. Having devoted followers and a happy gang were Dutch's drugs. When everything started crumbling, his facade did too.

 

I recall the one fishing mission when he, Hosea and Arthur were out on the boat. At the time, it seemed to him that all was right with the world and things were going well. Pointedly, he slipped and said "I think I'm going to be alright." Not "we."

 

If there's redemption in this game, Dutch had some too, as he actually made loyalty matter in the end. He was broken by then, but it wasn't a little thing.

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The FoolYT

Could have taken them to "tahiti" or wherever ages ago. 

 

Although having his family in a sense start dying, (like Hosea and the rest) might have stressed him out. He might have tried to distance himself from the gang on purpose to not feel any more sorrow or guilt about them dying possibly.

 

So there is arguments for both.

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ZB 512

Dutch changed like Bodi from Point Break and he also got a head injury...

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chronic lumbago

Maybe a little bit of both. 

 

I think that Dutch believed his own bullsh*t throughout the years. Believed it so much that even he himself didn't know what's really inside him. 

 

Up until the end of the game, he didn't necessarily have any hidden intentions. He was deluded.

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UKPortista

There was a whiff of twatishness about Dutch right from the opening scene and at no point during this epic adventure did I trust him.

 

Great character though.

Edited by UKPortista

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0223998743

The whole gang and himself ended up in a complete dead end, and by that moment he had no choice but to reveal himself.

Edited by anthony

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Fatsanchez

Dutch was an animal, a truly untamed beast. An outlaw. He had his own power to do as he see fit. Follow his ideals - whatever they are. They are still criminals, honourable or not. And as “progress” slowly claimed that power, and he, as an wild animal, became cornered, that made him more and more defensive. Have you ever seen an scared, cornered, defensive animal? They can be very violent. I think he is not truly bad nor completely good - just a human with flaws. Yes he is a manipulative individual but we can see that being used for the sake of everyone in the beginning of the story when they were still very much together. No one was part of that being deluded, everyone knew what they were and what they were up to. It was only as the law got closer and closer that he began “descending into madness”. And forced him into making some bad decisions, also motivated by his ego... maybe in the downfall of events that started at Blackwater he felt he had to prove to everyone that they still had power. That their time wasnt coming to an end. And that obviously was a mistake that doomed them all. As Arthur tried to point out several times throughout the story. But yeah in the end, he only thought of himself. Guess he, too, is a “survivor”.

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letsgobuffalobs

Not many people talk about Hosea and how big of an influence he had on both Dutch and Arthur. I'll never forget the fishing trip the 3 of them took at Shady Belle, that trip showed just how much Hosea ment to the Van Der Linde Gang. Once Hosea died, everything fell apart. Dutch to me was being pulled in 2 directions. Arthur wasn't Hosea and didn't have the same impact Hosea did with Dutch. Micah seemed to slip into the Hosea role after Chapter 5, Micah did not care about the gang and was out for himself. We also didn't see A LOT of their(Dutch and Micah) Dialogue once Arthur went to help Eagle Flies. I do remember constantly think about Dutch while helping that entire time. Dutch had good in him but when he made the decision to leave Arthur to die, that was the end of their relationship and the gang.

DUTCH CHANGED

It was the loss of Hosea that changed him. 

Edited by letsgobuffalobs

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Jason

I think he got started in the life he led for honest reasons and that at least for a good while he genuinely cared for the people around him. I don't entirely buy the idea that he used everyone who rode with him, he got his hands dirty plenty of times. I think the allure of one final score got to his head in Blackwater and the failure of it got to him, possibly cause it was a setup as well who knows. Then during the events of RDR2 we see every plan he has fail and the doubt that sows among the gang basically reeks havoc with his mind and makes him very paranoid about who has his back and who will betray him, and also the threat of death or capture narrows his vision towards just getting out alive and free, no matter who dies or who lives along the way.

 

Hosea dying was the key to the whole thing IMO, he always leaned to less violent methods and was the one person Dutch would listen to. Micah was pro-chaos and a yes man, he pushed Dutch down the rabbit hole that he couldn't get out off. Cause he's a filthy rat. 

Edited by Jason

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woggleman

The thing that showed his true character was how used the plight of the Native Americans for his own ends. He actually wanted the feds to focus on them so he can make an escape so he was willing to throw them to the wolves for his benefit.

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jje1000

I think the official description of Dutch should explain his character a bit better:

 

latest?cb=20181112161024

 

I think he falls under the category of the classic revolutionary-leader, where he begins a movement sincerely believing in his ideas, but has to compromise on them so much that by the end, it's no longer about the ideas, it's about himself.

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3Prcntr

He was always that way. A good leader gives you the belief that loyalty is helping those around you. But the whole thing was based on revenge and greed. He couldn't do it alone.

John should have killed him too.

Edited by 3Prcntr

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wagszilla

Dutch and the plot succeed through obscurantism.

 

When talking about whether Dutch is good or evil, this makes for interesting conversation like we're having here.

 

But when you attempt to explore the history of the gang, Dutch's life and philosophy, and many of the character's motivation, you find yourself frustrated at the short pool of evidence to work from. This is because you're left facing a locked door and find yourself purposefully led there. 

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TheSantader25

Wow... Pretty close poll. 

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Commander S

I mean, from the very beginning, Dutch is a cult-like figure, leading a gang where loyalty to him and his anarcho-primitivist fantasy of 'rejecting "civilisation" and pretty much all authority other than their own' is the only thing that defines the gang. Either you're in the gang, with him and loyal to his grand cause, or you're one against him/the gang (because Dutch is the gang/the gang is Dutch, if you see what I mean). That's something that was part of the character back in RDR1 (before R* fleshed him out more in the sequel), but you can also see it chronologically as early as the prologue ("stay strong - stay with me").

 

Losing a stablising influence like Hosea didn't help, and the same for Micah's presence as both an amoral cesspit on legs and a devoted sycophant. But consider a version of events where Hosea was still in the picture and Micah never came aboard: the problem is that they're still an outlaw gang, wanted for armed robbery, assault, and even murder, not that they're simply 'turning their back on "civilisation"' If Dutch had any real moral core, his 'go off the grid, reject the man, live for ourselves' philosophy would have resulted in setting up some hunter-gatherer commune living directly off the land, not robbing people at gunpoint.

 

But nope. While Arthur learns (the hard way...) that what the gang does ultimately hurts innocent people, Dutch doesn't care - because Dutch only cares about those loyal to his deluded, rose-tinted cause, and his whole 'ends justify the means' mentality means that innocent people are 'collateral damage' at best, pawns to be used most of the time, and possible enemies at worst. That means crime is justifiable, so ...why would Dutch give up the criminal life after "one last score", considering he doesn't recognise it as legitimate authority (and when he can always point at genuinely ruthless bastards like Milton as reason why he shouldn't) - ?

 

 

So yeah - everything falling apart really was just a matter of when, IMO. Again, Dutch's philosophy is (and always was) fundamentally self-serving, deluded, and morally bankrupt - and just because we saw things fall apart in a specific way in the game, doesn't mean that those events were the cause of the problem or somehow changed him, and that there's some magical scenario where Dutch's way of doing things would have worked out just fine indefinitely.

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GreatScott04

I think Dutch tricked everyone. He was always about the money, that's why he kept pushing east instead of west. East = more civilization, and more civilization = bigger scores and more money.

 

Most of all, I think he tricked Hosea. In his oldest friend, he saw a clever guy with good ideals who he could use to his advantage. He could take Hosea's ideas of family and honour, and twist them towards his own gain. He conned the conman.

 

Arthur felt that Dutch was changing, rather than just showing his true colours, because he'd been with Dutch and Hosea since he was a young kid. It was all he'd ever known. He bought into the lie.

 

John was young too, but perhaps a little more savvy than Arthur? He is often ridiculed by Arthur for being dumb, but I actually think he's quite clever. He's the only one who worked it out (except for maybe Charles, who also hints at being privvy to Dutch's true nature). Maybe this is why John really left the gang for a year before the events of RDR 2? The worries of being a father for the first time coupled with some niggling doubts about Dutch's intentions may have trigger his flight response, but it's pretty clear in the end that Abigail and Jack are his world, so he would never truley abandon them (otherwise he would've just disappeared into the west or Mexico during the opening of RDR 1 and left Abigail and Jack to their fates).

 

No, something else spooked him enough to ditch the gang and run away for a year. Perhaps the mask had already started to slip?

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WELSH_BOI_99

Dutch was a man who was defined by his convictions. He truly believed in what he was preaching but after the botched Blackwater robbery in 1899 he comes to a troubling conclusion that the wild west is coming to an end. His very way of life is approaching its end. What we see with Dutch is a cornered animal facing death he would do anything for him and his gang to survive.

 

Dutch Van Der Linde is by far my favorite character in the Rockstar Games catalog. The way we see his change was so intriguing in its presentation.  

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Scaeva

It was a little of both.

 

Dutch wasn't always entirely selfish. We're told that in earlier years the gang behaved a bit like Robin Hood and distributed spoils from some of their raids to the poor. Multiple members of the gang in campfire chats mention how they fell in with Dutch after he saved their life. During the game he takes in Sadie and Kieran, despite the former being nothing more than additional mouth to feed as far as anyone knew at the time and Kieran being a former O'Driscoll. He also sends the gang to rescue Sean from bounty hunters and risks his own skin to rescue Jack following his abduction by the Braithwaites.

 

All of that is some indication that Dutch changed by Chapter 6, when he's increasingly doing things for his own benefit at the expense of everyone else, and betraying John, Arthur, and Abigail by abandoning them. It is a sharp contrast from how he earlier reacted to Sean being captured or Jack's abduction, and the way he manipulates the native tribe for his own ends is a radical departure from what we're told of the gang's Robin Hood origins.

 

We're also told that Dutch used to be less ruthless toward civilians, for lack of a better word. The murder of the girl in Blackwater and the old woman on Guarma are both mentioned by Arthur and others as being out of character, at least compared to the Dutch of old. Arthur states the latter was against everything Dutch used to preach, so clearly there was some sort of change in his personality.

 

That said...to some degree Dutch was always a liar who was manipulating the rest of the gang for his own ends. All the philosophy he spouted about rebellion against the evils of civilization was nothing more than attempt to pretty up the gang's murderous banditry to be more than what it was. I think Dutch to some extent used to believe his own bullsh*t and was lying to himself as much as the gang, but by Chapter 6 that self delusion has been stripped away and Dutch knows exactly what he is.

 

Despite what he told the gang Dutch likely never truly planned on them riding off into the sunset to live quiet lives on their spoils. There was always going to be one more bank or one more train, even prior to Blackwater, because Dutch's ego could never let him settle for a life where he slid into obscurity as some rancher in the middle of nowhere, like John between games. Dutch was always going to ride out the outlaw life to it's inevitable tragic conclusion and the promises of retiring to quiet life away from civilization were just lies he fed to the gang to keep them committed to his "plans." Unlike with the Anarcho-primitivist philosophy he spouted, I think Dutch always knew the promises of a ride into the sunset were lies and there was always a manipulative side to his personality. The manipulative side of him just came to dominate more of his personality as the pressure mounted on the gang, his decisions were beginning to be questioned, and it was becoming increasingly clear that most of them weren't going to get out alive.

Edited by Scaeva

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UndeadPotat0

Dutch was always crazy to some degree Micah just brought it out in him.

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Scaeva

I wonder if the head injury Dutch sustains in the trolley crash is partly responsible for his unraveling. It isn't mentioned again in the game and seems to play no other role in the story - so why include a head injury at all unless the devs intended for it to be a contributing factor to the version of Dutch we get in Chapter 6?

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