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zilapos

Who is the REAL traitor?(Spoiler)

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Fatsanchez

Come on guys this fight looks like pre school stuff.

 

Dutch was their mentor, they look up to him, and respect him very much, this is pretty clear throughout the story.

 

BUT what is also pretty clear is that Dutch is slowly becoming more and more insane, giving in to feelings of personal revenge and even killing without reason, and eventually they notice - not only because Dutch’s bad decisions (and influences) keeps on getting them into progressively worse situations, which ultimately destroys everything they all had together - but also his indiference towards who was supposed to be his family, for example, leaving John behind, leaving Arthur behind, letting Molly be killed without any thinking, trusting a suspicious newcomer instead of his decades long buddies, not caring about Abigail, so on and so forth. But did he does all of these things because he is a bad person? Or because he is being cornered by the law and getting more and more desperate? Or because a bit of both?

So yeah its not all “white” or all “red”. Thats the tragedy, its all gray morals and thats the beauty of the thing. No one is 100% evil, everyone has their stories and reasons and motivations. But we can agree on hating Micah lol.

 

That said I dont think John could ever be the rat. The last time the law had him, they put him in a prision on a island. Having to do forced work in the fields. Doesnt look like a very good deal to me.

 

I guess the pinkertons couldve got him when he got shot on the train but why he would have gone back to the camp, knowing  that the pinkertons would storm the place? If this was the case he would just send the pinkertons and just let everyone thinking he indeed died in the train.

 

But the most important and conclusive evidence IMO is the bounty poster you can find on Micah’s abandoned camp near Strawberry.

Edited by Fatsanchez
Added a conclusion
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Deadman2112

I have to say I'm on my second play through and I'm at the point where he is in jail and at first I was honestly considering not going to save him, in-spite of the fact that the game would have been forever stuck right there.

 

But that was just an emotional response to the harsh ending of the game and how the story ends.

 

That aside I want to point out something that I think is being overlooked...

 

On 11/24/2018 at 10:04 PM, GenericGTAO said:

He is a rat.  Working for the government.  Dutch even tells him, they are just gonna find another monster, which turns out to be john himself.  John says thats their business.  Yep, john is doing their business and soon as they were done with him, he got what any rat deserves, a ratf--k.  

I know opinions will vary, but I disagree.

 

The 3 founding members of this gang, Dutch, Hosea, and Arthur all told him the same thing...

...Get out of this life.

....You have a kid now and this is no life for the boy.

...Do whatever it takes to make that happen.

 

It took John some time to realize this but eventually he did. Yet the moment he tried to achieve that, it put him in a situation that forced him to uphold that very promise. Even if it meant making sacrifices, and ultimately the ultimate sacrifice himself. However harsh it may be, in the end, he lived up to his word.

 

Regarding who I think betrayed the gang...

 

Video game or not, I've been around for a long time and in all my years I've learned few things, but one stands out in this instance...

 

I don't care who you are, where you're from, or what obstacles you face in life...

In the end, YOU are the author of your own story and the choices you make will ultimately define how that story unfolds. Be them good or bad.

 

That said. The way I see it is...

The ones who betrayed the characters in this story are the characters themselves. I say that because they all made the choice to stay and that was their real downfall in the end. This wasn't some gang that would kill you if you decided to leave. Each had their own free will and the door was open to anyone who decided to walk through it. Dutch all but says that right from the start.

 

I disliked Micah but not for rating on the gang anymore. I say that because anyone who found themselves in a situation where they were facing a choice of "your life, or some info" the choice is obvious.

...and don't sit there and say you wouldn't do the same, because if you would say that then you are thinking with your emotions and not logic.

 

I make that statement with confidence because every biological creature that has ever existed on this planet all have one thing in common besides a little DNA.

The thing we all share is called the jealous gene. 

In a nut shell you protect your own skin because of a built in biological mechanisms that can't be denied.

 

If you doubt this then stick you hand in boiling water and try not to pull it out.

 

...on second thought, let me take that back a bit,

Maybe people today would make that choice but only because of our current standards of humanitarian treatment, and that's only because it's rather unlikely that they would put a hole in your head for not talking.

...although as sad as it is, there are still some places like that.

...but back In those days, if you didn't give up the info they were wanting, you were as good as dead.

Basically what I'm saying is keep the time frame in perspective.

 

Anyway I've stood on my soapbox long enough. You can go back to arguing with each other now lol...

Edited by Deadman2112
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FreeMaxB585
6 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Fixed

 

all I can say is I asked one of the writers and they laughed at that even being an idea

 

maybe you should learn what a rat is moron. as I said a rat would be if john was still with dutch in rd1 and then snitched on him to save himself when they were working together doing dirty business. that would be like if someone saw a robbery go down and called the cops, they are not a rat. the rat would be one of the robbers who sold out his partners even tho they were all in it together doing dirt

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MadHammerThorsteen
17 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

He is a rat.  Working for the government.  Dutch even tells him, they are just gonna find another monster, which turns out to be john himself.  John says thats their business.  Yep, john is doing their business and soon as they were done with him, he got what any rat deserves, a ratf--k.  

I think you're living in a fantasy world, mah dude. Working with the gubment doesn't automatically make someone a rat.

 

 

44 minutes ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

all I can say is I asked one of the writers and they laughed at that even being an idea.

 

Might I encourage us all to disagree in a more civil tone? There's no need for us to degrade one another or call each other names. Generic is a bit out there with his perspective, but that doesn't mean we get to call him a moron.

Edited by MatthewIRL
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FreeMaxB585
5 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

I think you're living in a fantasy world, mah dude. Working with the gubment doesn't automatically make someone a rat.

 

 

 

Might I encourage us all to disagree in a more civil tone? There's no need for us to degrade one another or call each other names. Generic is a bit out there with his perspective, but that doesn't mean we get to call him a moron.

 

he is being one. when multiple people explained to him what a rat is. or what the definition of a rat/snitch is. he still cant seem to understand. very clear hes on the slow side

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MadHammerThorsteen
10 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

he is being one. when multiple people explained to him what a rat is. or what the definition of a rat/snitch is. he still cant seem to understand. very clear hes on the slow side

Maybe he is genuinely on the slow side. Maybe he's on the functioning end of the spectrum and is highly stubborn in certain things. We don't know. Point being that we shouldn't call him names.

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feckyerlife

Haven't finished the game yet, but finished all the chapters. I'm thinking Micah was the Rat from the start . When Milton tells Arthur about Molly and Micah, he wasn't expecting to be shot and killed by Abigail at that moment. He told Arthur the Truth about Micah being a rat hoping Arthur would leave and go after him, allowing Milton to come and pick up the pieces from the bloodshed.  Milton would only tell Arthur that Micah was the Rat, if Micah had already used up all his usefulness to the Pinkerton's. Like a lot of people have pointed out, nothing much really happened to the gang after Guarma that wasn't caused by their own faults. Everything that did happen to the gang in the earlier chapters felt like there was a Rat involved.  Some people need to stop looking through the eyes of a modern day snitch. Micah is obviously playing all sides and angles, He's playing the gang, he's playing dutch, he's playing the Pinkerton's. He's playing everyone against everyone and against themselves too. If you were Micah, why wouldn't you make a deal with the Pinkerton's? If you are all about yourself and you know how much money is in Blackwater, why would you not help the Pinkerton's take down the gang, since the gang is what stands in your way of the money. 

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CosmicBuffalo
22 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

I think you're living in a fantasy world, mah dude. Working with the gubment doesn't automatically make someone a rat.

 

 

 

Might I encourage us all to disagree in a more civil tone? There's no need for us to degrade one another or call each other names. Generic is a bit out there with his perspective, but that doesn't mean we get to call him a moron.

Its not working for the government only...its that he was in the gang and turned on the gang by working for the government.   Would Dutch, Bill, Javier consider him a rat?  I think the answer is without question as yes....Dutch even calls him an "errand boy" 

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Eric Cartman

Marston works for the government for the sole reason that the government has imprisioned his wife and son and threatened to kill them if he did'nt. He would never go after revenge against Dutch, Javier and Bill by his own will. Of course, that the fact of the gang left him to die in the train heist maybe added some little motivation to it, but John says to Abigail after killing Micah when he gets home: IT'S OVER. If werent for Ross tracking him down and kidnapping his family he would never chased them.

 

About the real traitor, i got to the conclusion that only Micah was the rat, and what happened before Guarma was a result of Dutch's stupid decisions that drove attention to the gang and exposed them.

 

Milton says that Molly hasn't ratted out the gang even though he pressed her to do it. What she does at the camp is a mere lie to attempt to piss off Dutch because he does't give her enough attention (tipical of women).

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FreeMaxB585
7 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Its not working for the government only...its that he was in the gang and turned on the gang by working for the government.   Would Dutch, Bill, Javier consider him a rat?  I think the answer is without question as yes....Dutch even calls him an "errand boy" 

 

Here is the most upvoted definition you can find. 99% ups

 

in the criminal sense a snitch will provide information to the police or feds in order to obtain lenient treatment for themselves and provide information over an extended period of time in return for money or for police to overlook their own criminal activities. Quite often someone will become an informant following their arrest.
a snitch is not the innocent person who has a serial killer living next door so he tells the police to get the trash out the community. a snitch is one who is slanging dope or doing some other wrong doing and gets caught but instead of taking their punishment like a man they tell the authorities info on other criminals so they can get off scott free or reduce their own punishment. that is a snitch!
 
And no he didnt turn on the damn gang LMAO. he was OUT of the gang. you do realize that red dead 1 was about 5 years after red dead 2 right? And you realize that the epilogue in rd2 is 7 years after his final scene with arthur right? So no he no longer was in the gang. the gang was no more. Also Dutch left Arthur to die TWICE, first time when he was saved by rain falls, the second time at the end when arthur fought with micah, dutch couldve saved him but he didnt. He also left John to die TWICE, first time was going to let him rot in prison, and then during the train robbery he left him. He also was going to leave abigale in prison. So why would he be loyal to some scumbag who let arthur die, was going to let john die (twice) and was going to leave abigale to die or spend her life in prison. AND in rd1 dutch had become insane and was killing and robbing INNOCENT people. Its not like Dutch and John parted ways after duch was a loyal friend, he left john and arthur to die multiple times and abigale.
 
Do you also realize that the gov told John he could go after scumbag dutch who almost killed him and his wife and his best friend Arthur, or be locked up in prison and have his ranched siezed.. WHAT A HARD CHOICE!! Go to prison and lose his families ranch where they become homeless, or not go after a guy who betrayed him and his closest friends and family multiple times, and is killing and robbing innocent people. Again it was TEN YEARS..10. TEN. 10. YEARS from when he was in the gang, no point within those 10 years was he riding or doing any sort of business with any of the gang members, THEY HAD BETRAYED HIM. Killed his best friend and pretty much was content with his entire family being killed. Wow really shouldnt go after those great guys, I mean they gave him such good treatment like leaving him in prison, not going to help him when he fell during the train robbery, saying they werent going to go for abigale because "shes just a girl, we have enough money now to leave forever, its just some girl,".. who cares if a 7 year old has to grow up with no parents!
 
Again it would be one thing if Dutch was great to Johns family at the end, tried to save arthur etc but not even close. It would even be another thing if John was still riding around with dutch doing dirt together and now all of a sudden John wants to turn on him. But neither is the case. There was no gang to turn on because it was 10 years sense he had been with any of them, and they were all the guys that took Dutches and Micahs side over his and arthurs. Damnnn he really should've just went to prison, lost his families ranch, make his family homeless, let the scumbag who pretty much killed his best friend, left him and his family to die numerous times go free. That makes a ton of sense!!!
 
I really cant break it down any better than that. If cant understand it I am just going to assume you are trolling
9 hours ago, feckyerlife said:

Haven't finished the game yet, but finished all the chapters. I'm thinking Micah was the Rat from the start . When Milton tells Arthur about Molly and Micah, he wasn't expecting to be shot and killed by Abigail at that moment. He told Arthur the Truth about Micah being a rat hoping Arthur would leave and go after him, allowing Milton to come and pick up the pieces from the bloodshed.  Milton would only tell Arthur that Micah was the Rat, if Micah had already used up all his usefulness to the Pinkerton's. Like a lot of people have pointed out, nothing much really happened to the gang after Guarma that wasn't caused by their own faults. Everything that did happen to the gang in the earlier chapters felt like there was a Rat involved.  Some people need to stop looking through the eyes of a modern day snitch. Micah is obviously playing all sides and angles, He's playing the gang, he's playing dutch, he's playing the Pinkerton's. He's playing everyone against everyone and against themselves too. If you were Micah, why wouldn't you make a deal with the Pinkerton's? If you are all about yourself and you know how much money is in Blackwater, why would you not help the Pinkerton's take down the gang, since the gang is what stands in your way of the money. 

 

Yea he clearly saw that Micah was trying to play both sides and would take off soon as he had enough money to vanish. He was about to kill arthur so had no reason to lie to him at that point. And we clearly find out that she wasnt the snitch at all that she didnt even give any information she was just drunk and trying to piss Dutch off

Edited by FreeMaxB585
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Shadowfennekin

Molly was just drunk, miserable and pissed at Dutch for ignoring her. She wasn't talking sense, Arthur knew that but everyone else was too quick to react.

Milton wouldn't lie to Arthur, the guy was literally about to kill Arthur so why would he?

 

Micah being a rat the whole time makes perfect sense as everything he's involved with ends up getting f*cked.

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Scaeva

The theory that the Pinkertons fed false intel to the gang to lure them into a trap before they had Micah as a trojan horse is an interesting one.

 

Short of that...it could just be that Dutch (and by extension the entire gang) was starting to get reckless. That and the gang's increasing notoriety would have made it difficult to fly under the radar. In each new location they visit it would only take one Jimmy Brooks to recognize them - while being smart enough not to announce it to the gang unlike Jimmy Brooks - for the Pinkertons to get wind they were in the area.

 

Consider how reckless it was to even go into Saint Denis at all. Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, and John are among the country's most wanted fugitives, each with bounties on their heads worth thousands of dollars ($1,000 U.S. dollars in 1899 was worth the equivalent of $30,468 today and Arthur has a $5,000 bounty on his head IIRC), and they ride into one of the nation's largest cities. Among all those crowds of people in that city it only takes one person to recognize Dutch or Arthur or John and a willingness to cash in on a life-changing amount of money for most of them, to derail anything the gang had planned.

 

You didn't need a rat within the gang to foil the Saint Denis bank robbery. It could be that witnesses had already notified the Pinkertons that they had seen gang members in Saint Denis, and the Pinkertons started monitoring likely targets for the gang. It wouldn't be hard to guess that they'd be going after the biggest bank in Saint Denis. 

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Smokewood
On 11/20/2018 at 8:10 AM, Jedster said:

This pretty much sums up what I think... Also when Arthur calls Micah a rat on top of the mountain, he replays that he is survivor which suggest that he chose to talk instead of die for the gang and see it as the opportunity to get rid of some gang members (by the hands of Pinkertons) and get closer to Dutch and the Blackwather money. 

It doesn't take a genius to realize that pinkertons would just kill him after he lose his uses for them so he plays for both sides and try to make the best of this situation. He lead them to Lagras hideout and hopes that he can make it out of there with Dutch, ditch the Pinkertons, go collect Blackwather money and disappear. When that doesn't work he continues to poison Dutch to that point that he doesn't even trust Arthur anymore - his "son" who is with him almost his whole life, because of his "doubting" and feed information to Pinkertons.

I think that Bill is just dumb and never liked Arthur and Javier seems like he just don't care to much about who is right at the standout so he choses Dutch's (most convenient) side at that point.

 

but Javier and Bill just witnessed Micha killing Susan as soon as he had the chance.

Javier's choice didn't make any sense to me... Bill I understood.

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RyuNova

I feel that Hosea was the one person keeping Dutch sane. Arthur notes that Dutch got crazy(ier) but only after Hosea was killed. I honestly think that Dutch loved Hosea as a brother and Hosea could make him see reason. Arthur was the mediator between them both. They made the perfect trinity.

Micah started whispering his poisons in Dutchs ear while Arthur was out. Dutch needs followers, he needs council and Micah gave it to him.

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Jimbatron

John couldn’t have supplied the Pinkertons with the groups new location after Arthur et al return from Guarma, as he was inside while they were still at Shady Belle. That for me torpedos any theory he is a rat.

 

I think it’s fairly certain Micah was the rat. Milton thinks he’s won at the stage he divulged that and is about to execute Arthur - he has no reason to lie. He’s just gloating.

 

Id also put money on him selling out Arthur to Colm when he gets captured but that’s never really confirmed either way.

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BretMaverick777
1 hour ago, Jimbatron said:

John couldn’t have supplied the Pinkertons with the groups new location after Arthur et al return from Guarma, as he was inside while they were still at Shady Belle. That for me torpedos any theory he is a rat.

 

I think it’s fairly certain Micah was the rat. Milton thinks he’s won at the stage he divulged that and is about to execute Arthur - he has no reason to lie. He’s just gloating.

 

Id also put money on him selling out Arthur to Colm when he gets captured but that’s never really confirmed either way.

Agreed....Milton has no reason at all to lie to Arthur, a guy he's seconds away from shooting.  (At least, that's the plan.) 

 

I don't think Micah was a long-term snitch, though.   I think, like Milton said, the Pinkertons got (voluntary) info from him after Guarma, because Micah went to them to shake things up and get Dutch focused on what was "important" -- i.e., the Blackwater money.   I'm also fairly certain that Micah's relationship with law enforcement ended there.  From 1899 to 1907, between Beaver Hollow and the Millesani Claim, Micah was back to Bad Guy 101. 

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SneakyDeaky

I feel bad for Molly. She spent chapters 3 and 4 being ignored by Dutch and Arthur, and pretty much the whole camp, until she slipped into a drunken spiral and probably was found slumped over a table by Milton in one of the saloons in Valentine. She probably said no more than "That selfish bastard is hiding out in the swamps" which quite honestly was enough to get the whole camp killed, but I don't think it was malicious or intentional. Yeah, she broke the rules, so she ends up being blown in half by a shotgun while it's that opportunistic snake with the forked-tongue Micah who should have been dragged into the middle of the camp and shot in front of everybody.

 

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mark.gunt22
On 11/19/2018 at 4:32 PM, GenericGTAO said:

There is actually very little credible evidence to suggest that Micha was the rat. Milton's disclosure could be just a ploy to try and get Arthur to flip.  Micha is a certifiable twat and looks like a rat, but thats not enough in my mind to say he actually did flip.

 

 In fact, John very well could still be the rat as he was captured in the bank robbery.  He has motive abandoned and a family.  Johns quest to kill Dutch is also such a betrayal as Dutch essentially kills Micha to save Sadie.  Yet, John hunts down Dutch essentially as a rat.  Bill and Javier what did they do to John?  To be hunted down like dogs by John.  John is highly suspsious, but its hard to say as there no direct evidence either of them.  Or atleast none to my knowledge.  Micha is the rat if I had to guess.

lol no... how about Milton having no reason to lie to Morgan?... that's THE ABSOLUTE PROOF. I bet you are one of those guys who likes conspiracy theories and thinks that earth is flat. You sure don't show much sense or reasoning. You say why john went after bill and javier... well because he had no option? I mean you sure don't remember the story of RDR 1 if you ask this question. Also you don't even remember RDR 2 story and that dutch betrayed him and left him to die lying others about his fate. And bill and javier sided with dutch and Micha pointing the guns to john and arthur. 

 

 

Edited by mark.gunt22
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pie4july
On 11/20/2018 at 10:28 PM, zilapos said:

 

Speaking to Hosea , actually I always thought he is the rat until he got shot , he also have strong motives- suffer enough for Dutch's stupidness , want to retired and live in peace the rest days , only one who have the wisedom can see the doom of this gang , also he once had a talk to John in camp said something like :"You have a life...(something I can't remeber)" , and John reply "I don't know what you mean." , Hosea:" You are not stupid , you know what I mean".

 

Here is a bold guess - Hosea is the one who told Pinkertons about the bank robbery , he is the one who planned , before this job he is always agianst Dutch for being too bold , and then he weirdly insist hitting a biggist bank in the city will work ... where Dutch unnormaly getting nervous , but they eventually agreed only because they trusted Hosea .

 

The last thing make Hosea decide betray is Angelo Bronte , when he strongly disagree Dutch to kill Bronte , he seek for Arthur's help to stop Dutch , but Arthur didn't , there was a despairing face on Hosea and he said :"You will damn us all."

 

After that , Hosea planned a bank robbery he knew will failed , and take Abigail with him because he want John's family alive (same as Arthur) , made a deal with Pinkerton like set them free after this with some money .

 

But Pinkerton betrayed him after all , because they don't want any criminal survive , by the scene that Hosea got shot , the way he turned back and look at Milton , doesn't it look like he trying to say:"It's not our deal" ?

 

What do you think?

 

https://i.imgur.com/ZHmHih5.png

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Rammer2k

Was Micha part of the Blackwater fiasco?  He did get all the cash later on.  Perhaps the whole time he was scheming on a way to get it all for himself, which would mean gutting the whole gang into chaos.

 

Also, in RDR1 it seemed that John, and Dutch left on some pretty rotten terms, but in the epilogue finale, it's more neutral.  Dutch even saves John, and leaves the cash for him as well.

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Tigarbrians
On 11/18/2018 at 10:32 PM, zilapos said:

 

But Micah didn't knew where the money hide in blackwater , as I remember Dutch is the only one knew it and never told to Micah .

 

 

 

Is it a revenge for Arthur ? or a punishment for traitor ? what is the meaning of staring at face after John finished Micah ?

I guess there is a lot mystery in the final scene , maybe not simple as it look.

 

You also have to remember in the final credits they found Micah’s body which ultimately lead to John getting found because he used 28 thousand or something like that of the Blackwater money to pay off his ranch to a bank in black water the marstons were never rats only Micah and the gang getting sloppy and murdering literally every town they entered

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GinsengElixir
On 12/26/2018 at 3:52 PM, Rammer2k said:

Was Micha part of the Blackwater fiasco?  He did get all the cash later on.  Perhaps the whole time he was scheming on a way to get it all for himself, which would mean gutting the whole gang into chaos.

 

Also, in RDR1 it seemed that John, and Dutch left on some pretty rotten terms, but in the epilogue finale, it's more neutral.  Dutch even saves John, and leaves the cash for him as well.

Micah was on the ferry robbery job. Infact he was the one who pushed Dutch to do the job whilst they were camped in nesr Blackwater. Hosea states this early on. 

 

I still don't know why Dutch left the Blackwater money to John though. Seems a little too altruistic but I guess that's what it was.

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SinisterRaccoon

Jack Marston. 

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DrDetroit

I don't get why you guys think Milton lied to Arthur. Milton was about kill Arthur and kill/arrest Sadie and Abagail. Milton was not going to let them go.  

 

So Milton lying about who is the rat makes no sense and serves no purpose.

 

Micha was the rat, for sure, as he had nothing to loose except to save his own skin, screw the gang and get that Blackwater loot.

 

Really that simple. Just a narcacistic dirtball with no allegiance to anyone but himself.

 

Good day! 

DrDetroit

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Mysterious hero

It's very clear in the original script, Micah was intended to be the rat since the beginning of the game. However, most likely during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. However there is residue for the original intention:

 

-According to an earlier leak, the gang would discover that there's a rat around among them at the beginning of the game. The leak was accurate (Correctly named the protagonist and revealed that you would eventually play as John) so I don't think they would get this wrong.

 

-In chapter 2, after the train heist, the newspapers revealed that someone tipped off law enforcement, which botched the heist. It's never revealed who tipped them off and there is no way Micah knew about the train heist.

 

-As many have noted, Micah is wearing a white suit during the Saint Denis Bank Robbery. Basically, the Pinkertons would know not to shoot the man wearing a light colored suit, as that's their informant, while they could shoot the men wearing the darker colored suits, as those are the gang members.

 

-Interestingly, during the bank robbery, Micah is the first to suggest that there might be a rat.

 

-The pinkertons, in idle dialogue, mention that the Blackwater Ferry Heist was a trap.

 

As for why they changed it, who knows.

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UnexpectedParole
On 5/24/2019 at 4:06 AM, Mysterious hero said:

It's very clear in the original script, Micah was intended to be the rat since the beginning of the game. However, most likely during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. However there is residue for the original intention:

 

-According to an earlier leak, the gang would discover that there's a rat around among them at the beginning of the game. The leak was accurate (Correctly named the protagonist and revealed that you would eventually play as John) so I don't think they would get this wrong.

 

-In chapter 2, after the train heist, the newspapers revealed that someone tipped off law enforcement, which botched the heist. It's never revealed who tipped them off and there is no way Micah knew about the train heist.

 

-As many have noted, Micah is wearing a white suit during the Saint Denis Bank Robbery. Basically, the Pinkertons would know not to shoot the man wearing a light colored suit, as that's their informant, while they could shoot the men wearing the darker colored suits, as those are the gang members.

 

-Interestingly, during the bank robbery, Micah is the first to suggest that there might be a rat.

 

-The pinkertons, in idle dialogue, mention that the Blackwater Ferry Heist was a trap.

 

As for why they changed it, who knows.

Interesting Points of discussion. I have some follow up questions/ comments.

 

I agree Micah didn't rat on the chapter 2 train job and there was no way for him to know about it. What newspaper did you read that mentions the tip off? I must admit I ignored the newspapers after buying the first one in my first play through.

 

Milton stated that Micah came to him after Guarma. After the botched bank job. Not before. If we believe Milton about who, why don't we believe him about when?

 

I recall Micah going on about the Rat in the swamp after Guarma and several times after in chapter 6. That makes sense. What did he say (and when) during the bank robbery?  (I don't recall all of the dialog)

 

Also, is the point of your thread that you think Micah might have been dirty the entire time, tipping off the cops at Blackwater  to kick this off and then finally to bring them into Beaver Hollow and end it?

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Mysterious hero
On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 4:07 PM, UnexpectedParole said:

Interesting Points of discussion. I have some follow up questions/ comments.

 

I agree Micah didn't rat on the chapter 2 train job and there was no way for him to know about it. What newspaper did you read that mentions the tip off? I must admit I ignored the newspapers after buying the first one in my first play through.

 

Milton stated that Micah came to him after Guarma. After the botched bank job. Not before. If we believe Milton about who, why don't we believe him about when?

 

I recall Micah going on about the Rat in the swamp after Guarma and several times after in chapter 6. That makes sense. What did he say (and when) during the bank robbery?  (I don't recall all of the dialog)

 

Also, is the point of your thread that you think Micah might have been dirty the entire time, tipping off the cops at Blackwater  to kick this off and then finally to bring them into Beaver Hollow and end it?

It's definitely in one of the newspapers early on, don't know which one to be exact. But the gist of it is someone tipped off the lawmen about the train robbery. Normally you would assume Micah was the one who tipped them off, but on closer inspection, it wouldn't make sense. The only ones who knew about the train were Arthur, Uncle, Mary-Beth, John, Charles, and Sean. The only way Micah would know about this event is if one of these people at camp told him, however he was in Big Valley during all of chapter 2. Plus, I doubt anybody would tell Micah about the train heist, he's hated by everyone. Either there's someone else who somehow knew about it or this is an overlooked plot hole.

 

You never know. Maybe Micah tipped him off about the bank robbery, but didn't get in direct contact with Milton until after Guarma. The fact that he's wearing a white suit while everyone else is wearing darker colored suits isn't a coincidence.

 

If you wait around long enough during the shootout in the bank, Micah will shout "there has got to be a rat!"

 

My point was that originally Micah was intended to be the rat from the beginning of the game. However, during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. This is because there was a leak that stated that the gang would find out that there was a rat among them at the beginning of the game. This specific leak got every aspect of the game correct, so I don't think that they would get this plot point wrong.

Edited by Mysterious hero
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SinisterRaccoon
9 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

It's definitely in one of the newspapers early on, don't know which one to be exact. But the gist of it is someone tipped off the lawmen about the train robbery. Normally you would assume Micah was the one who tipped them off, but on closer inspection, it wouldn't make sense. The only ones who knew about the train were Arthur, Uncle, Mary-Beth, John, Charles, and Sean. The only way Micah would know about this event is if one of these people at camp told him, however he was in Big Valley during all of chapter 2. Plus, I doubt anybody would tell Micah about the train heist, he's hated by everyone. Either there's someone else who somehow knew about it or this is an overlooked plot hole.

 

You never know. Maybe Micah tipped him off about the bank robbery, but didn't get in direct contact with Milton until after Guarma. The fact that he's wearing a white suit while everyone else is wearing darker colored suits isn't a coincidence.

 

If you wait around long enough during the shootout in the bank, Micah will shout "there has got to be a rat!"

 

My point was that originally Micah was intended to be the rat from the beginning of the game. However, during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. This is because there was a leak that stated that the gang would find out that there was a rat among them at the beginning of the game. This specific leak got every aspect of the game correct, so I don't think that they would get this plot point wrong.

I heard it was that there was no informant with alot of them, it's just that Dutch got sloppy and predictable. 

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Mysterious hero
21 minutes ago, UndeadPotat0 said:

I heard it was that there was no informant with alot of them, it's just that Dutch got sloppy and predictable. 

That's just we assume. The actual narrative doesn't specify whether the gang getting sloppy is how the Pinks kept finding them or if Micah was tipping them off and didn't become a full on informant until after Guarma.

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Gyo82

Ok so think about it like this micah likes pointing out how others screw up all the time but when its his screw up he scurries away and hides like the strawberry shootout and almost getting lenny killed bit take notice if you haven't already anytime something bad is about to happen or has happened micah is gone like when arthur takes jack fishing micah disappears then pearson tells dutch colm wants peace but if you listen to the o'driscolls after they take you hostage it was all a ruse and when when colm shows up to taunt you he tells you that it was all a set up to separate you from dutch and that there is a rat in the camp 

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