Who is the REAL traitor?(Spoiler)

[Scaeva]

The theory that the Pinkertons fed false intel to the gang to lure them into a trap before they had Micah as a trojan horse is an interesting one.

 

Short of that...it could just be that Dutch (and by extension the entire gang) was starting to get reckless. That and the gang's increasing notoriety would have made it difficult to fly under the radar. In each new location they visit it would only take one Jimmy Brooks to recognize them - while being smart enough not to announce it to the gang unlike Jimmy Brooks - for the Pinkertons to get wind they were in the area.

 

Consider how reckless it was to even go into Saint Denis at all. Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, and John are among the country's most wanted fugitives, each with bounties on their heads worth thousands of dollars ($1,000 U.S. dollars in 1899 was worth the equivalent of $30,468 today and Arthur has a $5,000 bounty on his head IIRC), and they ride into one of the nation's largest cities. Among all those crowds of people in that city it only takes one person to recognize Dutch or Arthur or John and a willingness to cash in on a life-changing amount of money for most of them, to derail anything the gang had planned.

 

You didn't need a rat within the gang to foil the Saint Denis bank robbery. It could be that witnesses had already notified the Pinkertons that they had seen gang members in Saint Denis, and the Pinkertons started monitoring likely targets for the gang. It wouldn't be hard to guess that they'd be going after the biggest bank in Saint Denis. 

[Smokewood]

On 11/20/2018 at 8:10 AM, Jedster said:

This pretty much sums up what I think... Also when Arthur calls Micah a rat on top of the mountain, he replays that he is survivor which suggest that he chose to talk instead of die for the gang and see it as the opportunity to get rid of some gang members (by the hands of Pinkertons) and get closer to Dutch and the Blackwather money. 

It doesn't take a genius to realize that pinkertons would just kill him after he lose his uses for them so he plays for both sides and try to make the best of this situation. He lead them to Lagras hideout and hopes that he can make it out of there with Dutch, ditch the Pinkertons, go collect Blackwather money and disappear. When that doesn't work he continues to poison Dutch to that point that he doesn't even trust Arthur anymore - his "son" who is with him almost his whole life, because of his "doubting" and feed information to Pinkertons.

I think that Bill is just dumb and never liked Arthur and Javier seems like he just don't care to much about who is right at the standout so he choses Dutch's (most convenient) side at that point.

 

but Javier and Bill just witnessed Micha killing Susan as soon as he had the chance.

Javier's choice didn't make any sense to me... Bill I understood.

[RyuNova]

I feel that Hosea was the one person keeping Dutch sane. Arthur notes that Dutch got crazy(ier) but only after Hosea was killed. I honestly think that Dutch loved Hosea as a brother and Hosea could make him see reason. Arthur was the mediator between them both. They made the perfect trinity.

Micah started whispering his poisons in Dutchs ear while Arthur was out. Dutch needs followers, he needs council and Micah gave it to him.

[Jimbatron]

John couldn’t have supplied the Pinkertons with the groups new location after Arthur et al return from Guarma, as he was inside while they were still at Shady Belle. That for me torpedos any theory he is a rat.

 

I think it’s fairly certain Micah was the rat. Milton thinks he’s won at the stage he divulged that and is about to execute Arthur - he has no reason to lie. He’s just gloating.

 

Id also put money on him selling out Arthur to Colm when he gets captured but that’s never really confirmed either way.

[BretMaverick777]

1 hour ago, Jimbatron said:

John couldn’t have supplied the Pinkertons with the groups new location after Arthur et al return from Guarma, as he was inside while they were still at Shady Belle. That for me torpedos any theory he is a rat.

 

I think it’s fairly certain Micah was the rat. Milton thinks he’s won at the stage he divulged that and is about to execute Arthur - he has no reason to lie. He’s just gloating.

 

Id also put money on him selling out Arthur to Colm when he gets captured but that’s never really confirmed either way.

Agreed....Milton has no reason at all to lie to Arthur, a guy he's seconds away from shooting.  (At least, that's the plan.) 

 

I don't think Micah was a long-term snitch, though.   I think, like Milton said, the Pinkertons got (voluntary) info from him after Guarma, because Micah went to them to shake things up and get Dutch focused on what was "important" -- i.e., the Blackwater money.   I'm also fairly certain that Micah's relationship with law enforcement ended there.  From 1899 to 1907, between Beaver Hollow and the Millesani Claim, Micah was back to Bad Guy 101. 

[Sneaky Queeky]

I feel bad for Molly. She spent chapters 3 and 4 being ignored by Dutch and Arthur, and pretty much the whole camp, until she slipped into a drunken spiral and probably was found slumped over a table by Milton in one of the saloons in Valentine. She probably said no more than "That selfish bastard is hiding out in the swamps" which quite honestly was enough to get the whole camp killed, but I don't think it was malicious or intentional. Yeah, she broke the rules, so she ends up being blown in half by a shotgun while it's that opportunistic snake with the forked-tongue Micah who should have been dragged into the middle of the camp and shot in front of everybody.

 

[mark.gunt22]

On 11/19/2018 at 4:32 PM, GenericGTAO said:

There is actually very little credible evidence to suggest that Micha was the rat. Milton's disclosure could be just a ploy to try and get Arthur to flip.  Micha is a certifiable twat and looks like a rat, but thats not enough in my mind to say he actually did flip.

 

 In fact, John very well could still be the rat as he was captured in the bank robbery.  He has motive abandoned and a family.  Johns quest to kill Dutch is also such a betrayal as Dutch essentially kills Micha to save Sadie.  Yet, John hunts down Dutch essentially as a rat.  Bill and Javier what did they do to John?  To be hunted down like dogs by John.  John is highly suspsious, but its hard to say as there no direct evidence either of them.  Or atleast none to my knowledge.  Micha is the rat if I had to guess.

lol no... how about Milton having no reason to lie to Morgan?... that's THE ABSOLUTE PROOF. I bet you are one of those guys who likes conspiracy theories and thinks that earth is flat. You sure don't show much sense or reasoning. You say why john went after bill and javier... well because he had no option? I mean you sure don't remember the story of RDR 1 if you ask this question. Also you don't even remember RDR 2 story and that dutch betrayed him and left him to die lying others about his fate. And bill and javier sided with dutch and Micha pointing the guns to john and arthur. 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by mark.gunt22

[pie4july]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:28 PM, zilapos said:

 

Speaking to Hosea , actually I always thought he is the rat until he got shot , he also have strong motives- suffer enough for Dutch's stupidness , want to retired and live in peace the rest days , only one who have the wisedom can see the doom of this gang , also he once had a talk to John in camp said something like :"You have a life...(something I can't remeber)" , and John reply "I don't know what you mean." , Hosea:" You are not stupid , you know what I mean".

 

Here is a bold guess - Hosea is the one who told Pinkertons about the bank robbery , he is the one who planned , before this job he is always agianst Dutch for being too bold , and then he weirdly insist hitting a biggist bank in the city will work ... where Dutch unnormaly getting nervous , but they eventually agreed only because they trusted Hosea .

 

The last thing make Hosea decide betray is Angelo Bronte , when he strongly disagree Dutch to kill Bronte , he seek for Arthur's help to stop Dutch , but Arthur didn't , there was a despairing face on Hosea and he said :"You will damn us all."

 

After that , Hosea planned a bank robbery he knew will failed , and take Abigail with him because he want John's family alive (same as Arthur) , made a deal with Pinkerton like set them free after this with some money .

 

But Pinkerton betrayed him after all , because they don't want any criminal survive , by the scene that Hosea got shot , the way he turned back and look at Milton , doesn't it look like he trying to say:"It's not our deal" ?

 

What do you think?

 

https://i.imgur.com/ZHmHih5.png

[Rammer2k]

Was Micha part of the Blackwater fiasco?  He did get all the cash later on.  Perhaps the whole time he was scheming on a way to get it all for himself, which would mean gutting the whole gang into chaos.

 

Also, in RDR1 it seemed that John, and Dutch left on some pretty rotten terms, but in the epilogue finale, it's more neutral.  Dutch even saves John, and leaves the cash for him as well.

[Tigarbrians]

On 11/18/2018 at 10:32 PM, zilapos said:

 

But Micah didn't knew where the money hide in blackwater , as I remember Dutch is the only one knew it and never told to Micah .

 

 

 

Is it a revenge for Arthur ? or a punishment for traitor ? what is the meaning of staring at face after John finished Micah ?

I guess there is a lot mystery in the final scene , maybe not simple as it look.

 

You also have to remember in the final credits they found Micah’s body which ultimately lead to John getting found because he used 28 thousand or something like that of the Blackwater money to pay off his ranch to a bank in black water the marstons were never rats only Micah and the gang getting sloppy and murdering literally every town they entered

[GinsengElixir]

On 12/26/2018 at 3:52 PM, Rammer2k said:

Was Micha part of the Blackwater fiasco?  He did get all the cash later on.  Perhaps the whole time he was scheming on a way to get it all for himself, which would mean gutting the whole gang into chaos.

 

Also, in RDR1 it seemed that John, and Dutch left on some pretty rotten terms, but in the epilogue finale, it's more neutral.  Dutch even saves John, and leaves the cash for him as well.

Micah was on the ferry robbery job. Infact he was the one who pushed Dutch to do the job whilst they were camped in nesr Blackwater. Hosea states this early on. 

 

I still don't know why Dutch left the Blackwater money to John though. Seems a little too altruistic but I guess that's what it was.

[SinisterRaccoon]

Jack Marston. 

[DrDetroit]

I don't get why you guys think Milton lied to Arthur. Milton was about kill Arthur and kill/arrest Sadie and Abagail. Milton was not going to let them go.  

 

So Milton lying about who is the rat makes no sense and serves no purpose.

 

Micha was the rat, for sure, as he had nothing to loose except to save his own skin, screw the gang and get that Blackwater loot.

 

Really that simple. Just a narcacistic dirtball with no allegiance to anyone but himself.

 

Good day! 

DrDetroit

[Mysterious hero]

It's very clear in the original script, Micah was intended to be the rat since the beginning of the game. However, most likely during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. However there is residue for the original intention:

 

-According to an earlier leak, the gang would discover that there's a rat around among them at the beginning of the game. The leak was accurate (Correctly named the protagonist and revealed that you would eventually play as John) so I don't think they would get this wrong.

 

-In chapter 2, after the train heist, the newspapers revealed that someone tipped off law enforcement, which botched the heist. It's never revealed who tipped them off and there is no way Micah knew about the train heist.

 

-As many have noted, Micah is wearing a white suit during the Saint Denis Bank Robbery. Basically, the Pinkertons would know not to shoot the man wearing a light colored suit, as that's their informant, while they could shoot the men wearing the darker colored suits, as those are the gang members.

 

-Interestingly, during the bank robbery, Micah is the first to suggest that there might be a rat.

 

-The pinkertons, in idle dialogue, mention that the Blackwater Ferry Heist was a trap.

 

As for why they changed it, who knows.

[UnexpectedParole]

On 5/24/2019 at 4:06 AM, Mysterious hero said:

It's very clear in the original script, Micah was intended to be the rat since the beginning of the game. However, most likely during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. However there is residue for the original intention:

 

-According to an earlier leak, the gang would discover that there's a rat around among them at the beginning of the game. The leak was accurate (Correctly named the protagonist and revealed that you would eventually play as John) so I don't think they would get this wrong.

 

-In chapter 2, after the train heist, the newspapers revealed that someone tipped off law enforcement, which botched the heist. It's never revealed who tipped them off and there is no way Micah knew about the train heist.

 

-As many have noted, Micah is wearing a white suit during the Saint Denis Bank Robbery. Basically, the Pinkertons would know not to shoot the man wearing a light colored suit, as that's their informant, while they could shoot the men wearing the darker colored suits, as those are the gang members.

 

-Interestingly, during the bank robbery, Micah is the first to suggest that there might be a rat.

 

-The pinkertons, in idle dialogue, mention that the Blackwater Ferry Heist was a trap.

 

As for why they changed it, who knows.

Interesting Points of discussion. I have some follow up questions/ comments.

 

I agree Micah didn't rat on the chapter 2 train job and there was no way for him to know about it. What newspaper did you read that mentions the tip off? I must admit I ignored the newspapers after buying the first one in my first play through.

 

Milton stated that Micah came to him after Guarma. After the botched bank job. Not before. If we believe Milton about who, why don't we believe him about when?

 

I recall Micah going on about the Rat in the swamp after Guarma and several times after in chapter 6. That makes sense. What did he say (and when) during the bank robbery?  (I don't recall all of the dialog)

 

Also, is the point of your thread that you think Micah might have been dirty the entire time, tipping off the cops at Blackwater  to kick this off and then finally to bring them into Beaver Hollow and end it?

[Mysterious hero]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 4:07 PM, UnexpectedParole said:

Interesting Points of discussion. I have some follow up questions/ comments.

 

I agree Micah didn't rat on the chapter 2 train job and there was no way for him to know about it. What newspaper did you read that mentions the tip off? I must admit I ignored the newspapers after buying the first one in my first play through.

 

Milton stated that Micah came to him after Guarma. After the botched bank job. Not before. If we believe Milton about who, why don't we believe him about when?

 

I recall Micah going on about the Rat in the swamp after Guarma and several times after in chapter 6. That makes sense. What did he say (and when) during the bank robbery?  (I don't recall all of the dialog)

 

Also, is the point of your thread that you think Micah might have been dirty the entire time, tipping off the cops at Blackwater  to kick this off and then finally to bring them into Beaver Hollow and end it?

It's definitely in one of the newspapers early on, don't know which one to be exact. But the gist of it is someone tipped off the lawmen about the train robbery. Normally you would assume Micah was the one who tipped them off, but on closer inspection, it wouldn't make sense. The only ones who knew about the train were Arthur, Uncle, Mary-Beth, John, Charles, and Sean. The only way Micah would know about this event is if one of these people at camp told him, however he was in Big Valley during all of chapter 2. Plus, I doubt anybody would tell Micah about the train heist, he's hated by everyone. Either there's someone else who somehow knew about it or this is an overlooked plot hole.

 

You never know. Maybe Micah tipped him off about the bank robbery, but didn't get in direct contact with Milton until after Guarma. The fact that he's wearing a white suit while everyone else is wearing darker colored suits isn't a coincidence.

 

If you wait around long enough during the shootout in the bank, Micah will shout "there has got to be a rat!"

 

My point was that originally Micah was intended to be the rat from the beginning of the game. However, during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. This is because there was a leak that stated that the gang would find out that there was a rat among them at the beginning of the game. This specific leak got every aspect of the game correct, so I don't think that they would get this plot point wrong.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Mysterious hero

[SinisterRaccoon]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious hero said:

It's definitely in one of the newspapers early on, don't know which one to be exact. But the gist of it is someone tipped off the lawmen about the train robbery. Normally you would assume Micah was the one who tipped them off, but on closer inspection, it wouldn't make sense. The only ones who knew about the train were Arthur, Uncle, Mary-Beth, John, Charles, and Sean. The only way Micah would know about this event is if one of these people at camp told him, however he was in Big Valley during all of chapter 2. Plus, I doubt anybody would tell Micah about the train heist, he's hated by everyone. Either there's someone else who somehow knew about it or this is an overlooked plot hole.

 

You never know. Maybe Micah tipped him off about the bank robbery, but didn't get in direct contact with Milton until after Guarma. The fact that he's wearing a white suit while everyone else is wearing darker colored suits isn't a coincidence.

 

If you wait around long enough during the shootout in the bank, Micah will shout "there has got to be a rat!"

 

My point was that originally Micah was intended to be the rat from the beginning of the game. However, during the delay, they changed it to be more ambiguous. This is because there was a leak that stated that the gang would find out that there was a rat among them at the beginning of the game. This specific leak got every aspect of the game correct, so I don't think that they would get this plot point wrong.

I heard it was that there was no informant with alot of them, it's just that Dutch got sloppy and predictable. 

[Mysterious hero]

21 minutes ago, UndeadPotat0 said:

I heard it was that there was no informant with alot of them, it's just that Dutch got sloppy and predictable. 

That's just we assume. The actual narrative doesn't specify whether the gang getting sloppy is how the Pinks kept finding them or if Micah was tipping them off and didn't become a full on informant until after Guarma.

[Gyo82]

Ok so think about it like this micah likes pointing out how others screw up all the time but when its his screw up he scurries away and hides like the strawberry shootout and almost getting lenny killed bit take notice if you haven't already anytime something bad is about to happen or has happened micah is gone like when arthur takes jack fishing micah disappears then pearson tells dutch colm wants peace but if you listen to the o'driscolls after they take you hostage it was all a ruse and when when colm shows up to taunt you he tells you that it was all a set up to separate you from dutch and that there is a rat in the camp 

[Goorin]

I think I figured it out! The entire story makes so much sense if we assume that Micah was passing information to both the Pinkertons and the Odriscolls. But instead of giving them the information directly had his pals (Cleet and the other guy) do it for him. I feel that they (his pals) were keeping touch and working together the entire game so then they could all walk away with the money. I think originally Micah joins the gang because he realized he could make money through them. Then when the Blackwater heist is planned and he finds out they're going to stash money, he does the obvious and sends Cleet to the Pinkertons to sabotage the mission. Which then they could grab the money. Micah probably wouldn't have wanted the Pinkertons in direct contact with himself. So why not have a random person (his friends) tip off law enforcement. I feel by chapter 5 the gang had done too much damage that Pinkertons were fed up and threatened Cleet to give up Micah. Hence being picked up then. At that point Micah has no choice but to work with the Pinkertons directly. 

[Goorin]

-EDIT- I think I figured it out! The entire story makes so much sense if we assume that Micah was passing information to both the Pinkertons and the Odriscolls. But instead of giving them the information directly, had his pals (Cleet and the other guy) do it for him. I feel that they (his pals) were keeping in touch and working together the entire game so then they could all walk away with the money.  I think originally Micah joins the gang because he realized he could make money through them. When the Blackwater heist is planned and he finds out they're going to stash money, he does the obvious and sends Cleet to the Pinkertons to sabotage the mission. Which then they could possibly grab the money. Micah probably wouldn't have wanted the Pinkertons in direct contact with himself. Micah would've wanted to protect his identity from the gang so they wouldn't think he was the rat. So why not have a random person (his friends) tip off law enforcement. He had to be like an undercover cop and fit in. I feel by chapter 5 the gang had done too much damage that the Pinkertons couldn't ignore it anymore and were fed up. So they threatened Cleet to give up Micah. Hence why Micah was then picked up. At that point Micah has no choice but to work with the Pinkertons directly. We see throughout the game Micahs struggle to find the hidden money, so over time he sabotages the gang hoping to make things work in his favor. All the while keeping his friends in the distance doing his dirty work. And then near the end, the gang is weak and falling apart so Micah says screw it and has his pals show up to make sure they have their way. And as a side note, I feel when Cornwall is killed, Micah helped plan it because he was getting sick of the Pinkertons and wanted them off his back now that they were forcing him to work with them directly.

[Smokewood]

I think it was Trelawey the entire time.

[Auditore]

I liked that micah was the rat ONLY after guarma,because it doesnt take away Dutch's agency in the story,you cant fall back into "well of course dutch failed there was a rat all along".

The gangs downfall is still on Dutch and even more than that his ego made him trust the man that would help bring the gangs downfall.

Micah serves as an extention to Dutchs character and its fair that Dutch is the first one to put a bullet on Micah.

On 7/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, Smokewood said:

I think it was Trelawey the entire time.

I would love to learn more about him,even play him,hes such a interesting side character.

[RyanRanger]

On 11/26/2018 at 12:38 PM, jmcc84 said:

Marston works for the government for the sole reason that the government has imprisioned his wife and son and threatened to kill them if he did'nt. He would never go after revenge against Dutch, Javier and Bill by his own will. Of course, that the fact of the gang left him to die in the train heist maybe added some little motivation to it, but John says to Abigail after killing Micah when he gets home: IT'S OVER. If werent for Ross tracking him down and kidnapping his family he would never chased them.

 

About the real traitor, i got to the conclusion that only Micah was the rat, and what happened before Guarma was a result of Dutch's stupid decisions that drove attention to the gang and exposed them.

 

Milton says that Molly hasn't ratted out the gang even though he pressed her to do it. What she does at the camp is a mere lie to attempt to piss off Dutch because he does't give her enough attention (tipical of women).

 

On 11/26/2018 at 12:38 PM, jmcc84 said:

Milton says that Molly hasn't ratted out the gang even though he pressed her to do it. What she does at the camp is a mere lie to attempt to piss off Dutch because he does't give her enough attention (tipical of women).

It’s “typical” not “tipical”. Gen Z kids really need to read a book. Like even one.

Granted I confess your response annoyed me. Molly went into that camp not for attention, but a death wish. She knew she’d be killed and that’s exactly what she wanted. Having said that I agree with you on most the other stuff.

[Copcaller]

Micah definitely was a rat not John or Abigail or Hosea. He didn't directly talk to the Pinkertons before guarma but he wanted to convince Dutch into going to get the money and later turning him over for his bounty hence him having Dutch's poster in his camp. Milton was gloating and had no reason to lie between Dutch committing high profile robberies in broad daylight and Micah's snitching they easily made counter measures

Edited October 27, 2019 by Copcaller

[ConnorW55]

I believe that there are multiple possibilities. One they were reckless there were no rats just bad choices. Two Micah was the rat. Three there were more that one rat throughout the course of the game. Abigails escape from the bank heist is suspicious she could have been the rat on at least the bank heist in exchange for John's freedom in hopes of having a family but once Hosea dies she backs out so they put John up for execution. Also John before the events of the main game was apart from the gang to about a year he then suddenly returned and was welcomed back in despite Arthur's suspicions. I personally don't believe Micah was the rat. Because Micah personality wise is arrogant he likes to gloat. Wouldn't Micah in the final fight with Arthur alone no Dutch in sight admit that he was the rat to Arthur just to piss him off instead he denies being the rat calling Arthur delusional. Even in the bad endings.

[Ryo256]

It could be possible that Micah did rat but since he is a professional manipulator, he probably fed lies to Milton. He is hostile towards Arthur as well so he probably wanted Pinkertons and Arthur to get rid of each other for him and get Blackwater money with Dutch.

Reason I believe this is because when Pinkertons do attack the camp in the last chapter, Micah is just as surprised as everyone. I mean if you fed them the information, why would you be surprised that they finally attacked? Doesn't quite add up if he is the rat.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Ryo256

[RJX74]

22 hours ago, ConnorW55 said:

 Three there were more that one rat throughout the course of the game. Abigails escape from the bank heist is suspicious 

Pretty sure that was the original plan. The newspapers talk about how the Train Job had a snitch, John will ask Arthur about whether it was a trap, then later Arthur will go tell Dutch that the law appeared way too quickly.

 

I'm guessing at somepoint they had John, Sean or Charles as a second rat and scrapped the storyline. 

[CosmicBuffalo]

After replaying the game, its pretty damn clear Micah is the rat.  I still feel Abigail is just as capable, but when I played the good guy ending, it just made too much sense that they wanted you to know Micah was clearly the rat.

 

 

[Failed Again]

When Arthur, breaks Micah out of Strawberry

Arthur is masked up. And Micah, keeps YELLING Arthur's name, seems odd and dumb