Who is the REAL traitor?(Spoiler)

[Nokingsman]

Personally I think the whole reason there were getting caught at every campaign was due to the fact that they bring chaos everywhere they go. Hell, Colter in the Grizzlies was the quietest chapter, every other camp they get in massive shootouts, shoot up half a town, or all of it, then move on... To the Pinkertons it's probably IDed as the Van Der Linde gang's MO, so they just put the pieces together, Horshoe Overlook got found because Arthur was fishing with JACK, which (at least to me) implies they're relatively close to camp... The whole game sets up how the world is becoming all civil and organized, and that's why the gang's having difficulties disappearing, because of all the calm civilization, it makes em stand out... I don't believe anyone was a rat until after Guarma... I had suspicions that Micah had been setting them up from the start, but he was more of an anonymous tip than actual informant and they only nabbed him upon return to the states... Everyone else seems to at least see Dutch in a brotherly to fatherly light, least until the end, at Beaver Hollow is when everyone breaks apart... Before that the only ones truly cracking were Dutch and Arthur (both because the way they saw the world was forcibly being changed and there was nothing they could do about it). What it boils down to is that whether there was a rat from the start or not, they sewd enough chaos across the heartlands that tracking was a trivial endeavor. Apologies for the meaty post. I'm new to the forum.

[zilapos]

13 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

The only person with an exploitable weakness is John.  Abigail being free is pretty suspect.  You kindve assume in Gurma she was captured at the same time with John. Molly then throws off this whole idea, but then Milton contradicts her.  Was Molly a red herring talking nonsense?  I mean the whole idea of being a rat to well known gang of outlaws is pretty much meaningless, people can be a witness in trial, but it doesnt seem that many trials were going on it was more...we know you did it and now youre gonna pay. 

 

Basically if we dont believe Molly, we are back to Abigail and John or Micha, Abigail is most def a ratting type and John is abanondoned again in the train robbery, so they definitely have motive.  Micha's motive is not clear in fact and thats why it doesnt even make sense for him to be ar rat.  He really has nothing to lose.  Whats to stop him from shooting Dutuch taking the money after killing Arthur and running off.  His character is just so unlikeable that we immedaitely assume its him.  For all we know Molly told the truth and got blasted.  Really need to know what happened to Hosea before he dies with Abigail.

 

Speaking to Hosea , actually I always thought he is the rat until he got shot , he also have strong motives- suffer enough for Dutch's stupidness , want to retired and live in peace the rest days , only one who have the wisedom can see the doom of this gang , also he once had a talk to John in camp said something like :"You have a life...(something I can't remeber)" , and John reply "I don't know what you mean." , Hosea:" You are not stupid , you know what I mean".

 

Here is a bold guess - Hosea is the one who told Pinkertons about the bank robbery , he is the one who planned , before this job he is always agianst Dutch for being too bold , and then he weirdly insist hitting a biggist bank in the city will work ... where Dutch unnormaly getting nervous , but they eventually agreed only because they trusted Hosea .

 

The last thing make Hosea decide betray is Angelo Bronte , when he strongly disagree Dutch to kill Bronte , he seek for Arthur's help to stop Dutch , but Arthur didn't , there was a despairing face on Hosea and he said :"You will damn us all."

 

After that , Hosea planned a bank robbery he knew will failed , and take Abigail with him because he want John's family alive (same as Arthur) , made a deal with Pinkerton like set them free after this with some money .

 

But Pinkerton betrayed him after all , because they don't want any criminal survive , by the scene that Hosea got shot , the way he turned back and look at Milton , doesn't it look like he trying to say:"It's not our deal" ?

 

What do you think?

 

[The Nefarious]

This is one thing (among many) that I found pretty rediculous. The ferry robbery is heavily implied to be a set up and the only thing Micah could have possibly given up is their location in Lagras and/or Beaver Hollow. The Pinkertons are on their tail the whole time which is really unbelievable given the timeframe with its lack of modern surveillance techniques etc. Some of the writing is incredibly bad. Red herrings for the sake of red herrings everywhere to make an otherwise paper thin story seem deeper. Same with the excessive padding between chapters 2 and 4 that make it excessively long (to the point where completion stats for those chapters are under the 5% mark on PS4).

[CosmicBuffalo]

15 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

Dude, let that theory go. You play as John in both games and it's never even remotely hinted that John had anything to do with the the Pinkertons. If he had, I'd imagine that at the very least, we'd catch inklings of it in the epilogue, but John wanted to be loyal to the end--EVEN after being betrayed by Dutch.

 

John might be a crack shot, but he's also almost as dumb as a bag of rocks, and Rockstar makes that painfully clear at various points. On an intelligence scale, he was smarter than Bill, but even Pearson had more diction. John could never have faked working for the Pinkertons.

 

FYI John didn't want to hunt after Dutch at any point EXCEPT toward the end of RDR when the BOI demanded that he do it to get his family. He was genuinely content to let well enough alone, and he even bitched about having to find more people for 

I agree that its probably not John, but I cannot rule it out. 

 

As he has more of reason than anyone to turn on the gang. The fact that he is willing at all to hunt down Dutch is a huge betrayal. And shows where his true loyalty lies which is with his family.  Bill and Javier did 0 to him and he hunts them down as well.  He knows full well that none are going quietly and will result in deaths of his closest friends, one who saves his life and good friend in the end of RDR2.  Two others who do absolutely nothing except maybe having his wife.

 

  I lost a ton of respect for John as a character, and it kindve sucks I have to play as him in the end. He is basically as pussy whipped as Dutch says in one of last scenes of the RDR.  Not only that, Abigail could easily be a rat, and John is simply more loyal to her than the gang.  Maybe he never even knows until later which would not make him a rat at all.  And thats where I think the inklings are present, Abigails constant moaning, nothing explicit but maybe R* would have definitvely revealed it at that point, maybe not. Makes perfect sense that he would choose her over the gang. Perfectly natural as well but not very likeable.

 

Anyhow, Micha is most likely the rat as he is a scum bag and will do the best thing for himself.  I just cant say that for certain...maybe you can and thats fine.

[CosmicBuffalo]

15 hours ago, zilapos said:

 

Speaking to Hosea , actually I always thought he is the rat until he got shot , he also have strong motives- suffer enough for Dutch's stupidness , want to retired and live in peace the rest days , only one who have the wisedom can see the doom of this gang , also he once had a talk to John in camp said something like :"You have a life...(something I can't remeber)" , and John reply "I don't know what you mean." , Hosea:" You are not stupid , you know what I mean".

 

Here is a bold guess - Hosea is the one who told Pinkertons about the bank robbery , he is the one who planned , before this job he is always agianst Dutch for being too bold , and then he weirdly insist hitting a biggist bank in the city will work ... where Dutch unnormaly getting nervous , but they eventually agreed only because they trusted Hosea .

 

The last thing make Hosea decide betray is Angelo Bronte , when he strongly disagree Dutch to kill Bronte , he seek for Arthur's help to stop Dutch , but Arthur didn't , there was a despairing face on Hosea and he said :"You will damn us all."

 

After that , Hosea planned a bank robbery he knew will failed , and take Abigail with him because he want John's family alive (same as Arthur) , made a deal with Pinkerton like set them free after this with some money .

 

But Pinkerton betrayed him after all , because they don't want any criminal survive , by the scene that Hosea got shot , the way he turned back and look at Milton , doesn't it look like he trying to say:"It's not our deal" ?

 

What do you think?

 

Interesting thought, I never considered Hosea as rat because was a career criminal.  

[jje1000]

Interesting note- some of the idle Pinkerton agents after the Saint Denis bank heist note that Blackwater was a setup and was designed to trap the gang.

 

it could very much be that the Pinkertons fed false information to Micah though his sources, who then convinced Dutch to go through with those plans- it could explain a lot of the gang's failings up to Guarma, and other questionable decisions like Dewberry Creek.

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by jje1000

[BoulderFaceplant]

I think when Milton offered them all a chance to live peacefully, he was being honest. At least, I believe Micah thought he was honest. Micah couldn’t take up the offer right there, but he was interested. He’s the only one who is both disloyal and fearless enough  to potentially abandon the gang by getting found out. The only reason he didn’t run off alone after ratting was the Blackwater money that he couldn’t get on his own. 

 

By 1907, Micah had secured the Blackwater money with the help of a new gang, and Dutch was about to join. 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by BoulderFaceplant

[FreeMaxB585]

Dutch is still the biggest traitor. Micah was scum but dutch was the elader they were his people. he left arthur to die (twice, when the indian saves him and then when micah gets him) was going to leave john in prison, left john to die during the train heist, was going to leave abigale in prison, they were his people he betrayed

 

as far as the rat it was um pretty clear. the lady admitted to all of it and then was shot. the pre micah guam rat

On 11/19/2018 at 11:27 AM, Watain said:

I agree on the lack of credible evidence, but I also don't see why Milton would lie about it. Micah was one of the newest recruits and a very unstable one at that. It's never confirmed or directly implied but if you read between the lines, I think you can assume Micah had a lot to do with the gang getting loud. He just wasn't careful in his approach and Arthur called him out on that when Sean got killed, for instance. I think Micah was simply a violent and somewhat stupid man with lots of ambitions.

 

I also really don't think John was a rat. I just can't see his motives. Why would he rat after he got arrested in Saint Denis? He saw what they did to Hosea right before they arrested him. He also had all of his family and friends back in the camp. Why would he trust to put them at risk at the hands of the Pinkertons' dirty tactics and corruption? It doesn't make sense to me. John also never set out to kill any of them except for Micah. Killing Javier is optional but not intentional. The same with Bill really, except he tries to shoot John and must be shot instead. Dutch did himself in and Ross even called John out on not shooting him. Dutch simply suspected John (and Abigail) because they started to question his mad methods. It was nothing but Dutch's paranoia corrupting him.

 

If anything, I think John was even more loyal to the gang than Arthur was. Like when John and Arthur blew up that bridge, Arthur suggested something and John was very skeptical towards it. John also never goes after any of his former gang members except for Micah. Not until he's forced to do so by Ross some twelve years later. Even though Dutch, Bill and Javier all betrayed/abandoned John, he's still resistant towards killing any of them in RDR1.

 

exactly. if john was the rat he would be protected and treated nice by them. not put in a chain gang. he wouldnt give up his actual kin in the line of fire

On 11/20/2018 at 8:05 AM, GenericGTAO said:

The only person with an exploitable weakness is John.  Abigail being free is pretty suspect.  You kindve assume in Gurma she was captured at the same time with John. Molly then throws off this whole idea, but then Milton contradicts her.  Was Molly a red herring talking nonsense?  I mean the whole idea of being a rat to well known gang of outlaws is pretty much meaningless, people can be a witness in trial, but it doesnt seem that many trials were going on it was more...we know you did it and now youre gonna pay. 

 

Basically if we dont believe Molly, we are back to Abigail and John or Micha, Abigail is most def a ratting type and John is abanondoned again in the train robbery, so they definitely have motive.  Micha's motive is not clear in fact and thats why it doesnt even make sense for him to be ar rat.  He really has nothing to lose.  Whats to stop him from shooting Dutuch taking the money after killing Arthur and running off.  His character is just so unlikeable that we immedaitely assume its him.  For all we know Molly told the truth and got blasted.  Really need to know what happened to Hosea before he dies with Abigail.

 

bro...please lol stop. no offense but you are coming off as a bafoon. yes micah had every incentive it was that or death when they got him after guam. he wasnt loyal to the gang hes only been with them a few months. also he got to play both sides of the fence. remain safe if the pinkertons did win. feed them bits and pieces but if he got the chance to get big money and bolt he would do it and he did. milton had no reason to lie at that point. he is def the rat because they made him the main end game villain for a reason, make him hated as possible. I think you are over thinking things. again if john were ratting he would be putting his wife in son right in the middle of gun battles on both sides

Edited November 22, 2018 by FreeMaxB585

[Nokingsman]

On 11/20/2018 at 8:24 PM, MatthewIRL said:

Dude, let that theory go. You play as John in both games and it's never even remotely hinted that John had anything to do with the the Pinkertons. If he had, I'd imagine that at the very least, we'd catch inklings of it in the epilogue, but John wanted to be loyal to the end--EVEN after being betrayed by Dutch.

 

John might be a crack shot, but he's also almost as dumb as a bag of rocks, and Rockstar makes that painfully clear at various points. On an intelligence scale, he was smarter than Bill, but even Pearson had more diction. John could never have faked working for the Pinkertons.

 

FYI John didn't want to hunt after Dutch at any point EXCEPT toward the end of RDR when the BOI demanded that he do it to get his family. He was genuinely content to let well enough alone, and he even bitched about having to find more people for them.

 

 

Horseshoe Overlook never got found. The gang hightailed it out of there after shooting their way out of Valentine when Cornwall's people cornered Dutch.

 

The first time the Pinkertons show up at camp is at after the gang burn down Braithewait Manor. And at that point, the gang had been kicking up so much dust in Lemoyne that the Pinkertons knew exactly where to look.

Yeah I got confused for a sec... Thats what I meant, but you said it clear, they keep stirring up crap, killing lots of people... Everywhere they go... Only Reason Horseshoe never got found was because they were pretty off the beaten path, every camp I believe kept getting closer to a settlement (I think anyway)... And yeah, I agree John wasn't intelligent enough to play both sides and even if he was I genuinely don't think he would... Even in the epilogue he doesn't just straight up rat anybody out, he never lets slip anything, hell I the first game he makes it very clear that he despises hunting down his old gang, but he has to to save his family... So Idt he'd be a rat regardless, nor Abigail, even though she was pretty angry with everything, it was clear that this was basically her family... Micah was the only one who (at least to me) came off as the bad apple in the bunch from the start... At least in my opinion.

[Nokingsman]

3 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

 

I never anticipated Micah ratting, but I very much disliked him almost from the get. Everything he did and said made me think, "he's going to contribute in a major way to the downfall of the gang." Like I said, I didn't expect him to squeel to Pinkertons, but I did kick myself for not seeing it sooner. I distinctly remember being a bit confused and then annoyed that he was at Lagras already when I arrived because Arthur was supposed to be the first person ashore by quite a wide margin, and I found the gang pretty much right away. I had a sense that something was amiss, but I shrugged it off as Micah being the usual self-interested weasel that he was.

Until Milton said Micah had been the rat since returning from Guarma, I thought he was the mole right out the gate... What made me think he was def the rat was how cowardly, manipulative, and untrustworthy he was... He always seemed like he was up to something... And if you find his little secret camp, you'll find out that he and his dad are pretty terrible guys, pretty early on... I liked him as a character, but as a person, def not, if that makes sense. Thanks for the reply man.

[Nokingsman]

2 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

If I hadn't had it spoiled a couple missions early, I probably would've kept thinking that he was kissing Dutch's ass to get whatever it was he wanted out of the partnership. Which was never to the benefit of the gang, but I figured he wanted something. Just couldn't put my finger on it. Once it was spoiled for me, it was sooo damned obvious. I wanted to reach through my screen and personally squeeze the air from his throat at several points before the actual reveal.

I somehow avoided having it spoiled, so when I was proven right, thinking back on it, every time he wanted Dutch and the group to go for the Blackwater money the group was in disarray... I think he probably expected most if not the entire group to die, except him of course... I personally loved taking the weasel out in the epilogue... Well deserved comeuppance... Though I would have thought it was funnier if Arthur killed him at the end, even though Arthur was basically dead right there.

[CosmicBuffalo]

On 11/21/2018 at 6:27 PM, MatthewIRL said:

The only time John hunts Dutch is 12 years AFTER Dutch had betrayed him, left him for dead, and they parted ways. And further, ONLY because Dutch returned to Blackwater and was very clearly a threat to everyone.

 

Worth noting is that John doesn't have to kill Bill or Javier. Javier can be given to the BOI alive, which John has no reason to suspect they'd kill Javier. And Reyes will kill Bill when Bill tries to whip his gun out on John. Even though John had every reason to kill Bill--getting shot at Fort Mercer, getting swarmed at Mercer station, Bonnie's barn being burned, and Bonnie herself having been raped and hung--John could still choose not to kill Bill. In the end, John didn't even kill Dutch, and I guarantee if Dutch went willingly, John would've handed Dutch over clean and alive.

 

On the other hand, there is an impossible-to-miss moment during John and Arthur's escape in which they cross paths with Dutch and co., and the whole gang starts firing at John and Arthur. In my mind, whatever remaining ties of loyalty John would've had were severed by all of them in that moment. And EVEN THEN, John still had a line or two about loyalty before Arthur put his final foot down for John to leave.

 

John's loyalty to his family came after all of that, once they were all he had. Remember that he didn't turn on Sadie, or Uncle, or Charles. He would've never even bothered going after Bill or Javier had not his family been threatened by the BOI--which is not a dishonorable act on John's part.

 

But if we're talking about loyalty, Bill and Javier obviously kept looking out for each other. Did they ever bother trying to find John? I doubt it. His identity wasn't even secret after getting Beecher's Hope.

As to Abigail being a rat? All she wanted was John's and Jack's safety. How would going to the Pinkertons ever ensure that? She clearly stayed with the gang until the last possible moment when she could've gotten out of there with Jack at any time. She had every reason to be thankful to the gang because they got Jack back from an impossible situation.

 

Further, why would Abigail put John at risk knowing full well the Pinkertons could or would kill indiscriminately? They still ended up throwing John in the bin, and they would've kept him there until his dying breath. If we're implying anything about Abigail ratting after Guarma, why would she have put herself and Jack in danger of a whole army of Pinkertons with a Maxim gun?

 

It just doesn't square up. There was no motivation for Abigail to rat. Her situation would've been a hundred times better if she just disappeared with Jack and left a note, and she had numerous opportunities to do that without the Pinkertons coming for her. Clearly, the gang wasn't in the business of tracking its own down for desertion either. They never bothered with John when he bolted during Jack's birth, but they let him back in when he showed back up. And they always let Trelawney wander off. Nay, Abigail was taken care of where she was.

Dutch saves Sadie and John in the end.  And you reconcile John hunting down Dutch because time has passed...fine for you, but not for me.  Leaving a man behind isnt a betrayal if they think John got caught AGAIN or killed.  Dutch is not convinced John is not a rat until they meet again in the last mission.

 

And the rest of the gang thought John was the rat as well.  The lines are drawn in those last moments.  And its pretty clear, John and Arthur are no longer with Dutch.  Yet you seem to have a certainty about John not being the rat.   I actually agree that he isnt, but I cannot rule it out.  And the reason is Abigail and Jack.  

 

Abigail escapes from Saint Denis, how exactly?  Maybe she gets arrested and cuts a deal when the rest escape to try and get John out, Why exactly are the keeping John alive again?  When you get back from Guruma, the first thing she does is try and get Arthur to go rescue him, and I think you play one mission and then come back and pinkertons are up your butt.  Easy answer, Abigail goes to Milton when they return.  If Molly is lying, who is she protecting, Micha?  

 

I will have to replay the last few missions of RDR2 to get a clear picture.  But RDR, is basically a tale of a selfish family man trying to save his own skin at the expense of  his former closest friends.  John is a rat, Dutch call him as such as well.   

 

If you are still having trouble, let me repeat, Dutch saves John in the end and John hunts him down anyway.  John is a rat in RDR.  Is he in RDR2, cannot say for sure, but most likely not.

[FreeMaxB585]

10 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Dutch saves Sadie and John in the end.  And you reconcile John hunting down Dutch because time has passed...fine for you, but not for me.  Leaving a man behind isnt a betrayal if they think John got caught AGAIN or killed.  Dutch is not convinced John is not a rat until they meet again in the last mission.

 

And the rest of the gang thought John was the rat as well.  The lines are drawn in those last moments.  And its pretty clear, John and Arthur are no longer with Dutch.  Yet you seem to have a certainty about John not being the rat.   I actually agree that he isnt, but I cannot rule it out.  And the reason is Abigail and Jack.  

 

Abigail escapes from Saint Denis, how exactly?  Maybe she gets arrested and cuts a deal when the rest escape to try and get John out, Why exactly are the keeping John alive again?  When you get back from Guruma, the first thing she does is try and get Arthur to go rescue him, and I think you play one mission and then come back and pinkertons are up your butt.  Easy answer, Abigail goes to Milton when they return.  If Molly is lying, who is she protecting, Micha?  

 

I will have to replay the last few missions of RDR2 to get a clear picture.  But RDR, is basically a tale of a selfish family man trying to save his own skin at the expense of  his former closest friends.  John is a rat, Dutch call him as such as well.   

 

If you are still having trouble, let me repeat, Dutch saves John in the end and John hunts him down anyway.  John is a rat in RDR.  Is he in RDR2, cannot say for sure, but most likely not.

 

lmao so many things wrong with this. he isnt a rat at all. him ratting he would have taken his son and abigale away he wouldnt send in people onto a location where massive gun battles will go down where they could end up in the line of fire. milton wouldve told arthur as well, and if he was ratting and helping them he wouldnt have been in a chain gang like that. there is only about 1000x other things where there is 0% chance he is the rat....

 

he isnt really a rat in rd1. it was take down a piece of crap like dutch or have his family messed with and his farm seized 

Edited November 24, 2018 by FreeMaxB585

[The Nefarious]

On 11/22/2018 at 5:03 PM, MatthewIRL said:

 

I don't think there was a setup at all. The only reason they got caught at all is because random guards went to check on the captain's cabin. Unless you mean the trolly statio  robbery--in which case, it isn't implied. It IS a setup by Bronte.

Pretty sure everyone is oblivious to what went wrong. Where did you see this exactly?

[CosmicBuffalo]

18 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the truest. There's nothing simple about a theory about Abigail and/or John being rats. You have to explain more than there is information for, and you're using unknowns as opposed to knowns to settle your point.

 

And considering the bad blood as resolved between Dutch and John because Dutch decided to shoot Micah? That's a huge stretch. Dutch was only there for his own self-satisfaction. In fact, if you bother actually trying to kill Micah before Dutch shoots him, he will kill John.

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

[marcx666]

4 minutes ago, GenericGTAO said:

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

Oh for god sake, John wasnt a rat, he was forced into a situation because his family were being held hostage. Micah WAS a rat, for money and to save his own skin. Totally different.

[Cutter De Blanc]

I kind of assumed Hosea sacrificed himself so Abigail could escape

[CosmicBuffalo]

 

2 hours ago, marcx666 said:

Oh for god sake, John wasnt a rat, he was forced into a situation because his family were being held hostage. Micah WAS a rat, for money and to save his own skin. Totally different.

If by forced you mean volutarily hunting down former gang members/friends/father figures/brothers so he gets a lighter punishment, then you are correct.  John and Micha ratting arent that different than one another in my book.  John is actually slightly worse as he was raised by Dutch.

[CosmicBuffalo]

1 hour ago, MatthewIRL said:

You're not a rat if you're not rolling with the guy. They weren't friends or family any longer. John was just a man whose priorities were in conflict with another man's priorities. That other man just happened to be someone he used to know.

He is a rat.  Working for the government.  Dutch even tells him, they are just gonna find another monster, which turns out to be john himself.  John says thats their business.  Yep, john is doing their business and soon as they were done with him, he got what any rat deserves, a ratf--k.  

[FreeMaxB585]

10 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

 

lmao must be trolling. john was never a rat. in red dead 1 it was bring down scum like dutch or lose his ranch. a rat would be if john was still in dutches gang as friends and then sold him out to save his own skin. you dont even know the definition

[CosmicBuffalo]

8 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

lmao must be trolling. john was a rat. in red dead 1 it was bring [former gang members] like dutch or lose his ranch. a rat would be john [because he was in] dutches gang as friends and then sold [Dutch] out to save his own skin. [Freemax] is either trolling or [doesnt] even know the definition

Fixed

[Fatsanchez]

Come on guys this fight looks like pre school stuff.

 

Dutch was their mentor, they look up to him, and respect him very much, this is pretty clear throughout the story.

 

BUT what is also pretty clear is that Dutch is slowly becoming more and more insane, giving in to feelings of personal revenge and even killing without reason, and eventually they notice - not only because Dutch’s bad decisions (and influences) keeps on getting them into progressively worse situations, which ultimately destroys everything they all had together - but also his indiference towards who was supposed to be his family, for example, leaving John behind, leaving Arthur behind, letting Molly be killed without any thinking, trusting a suspicious newcomer instead of his decades long buddies, not caring about Abigail, so on and so forth. But did he does all of these things because he is a bad person? Or because he is being cornered by the law and getting more and more desperate? Or because a bit of both?

So yeah its not all “white” or all “red”. Thats the tragedy, its all gray morals and thats the beauty of the thing. No one is 100% evil, everyone has their stories and reasons and motivations. But we can agree on hating Micah lol.

 

That said I dont think John could ever be the rat. The last time the law had him, they put him in a prision on a island. Having to do forced work in the fields. Doesnt look like a very good deal to me.

 

I guess the pinkertons couldve got him when he got shot on the train but why he would have gone back to the camp, knowing  that the pinkertons would storm the place? If this was the case he would just send the pinkertons and just let everyone thinking he indeed died in the train.

 

But the most important and conclusive evidence IMO is the bounty poster you can find on Micah’s abandoned camp near Strawberry.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Fatsanchez
Added a conclusion

[Deadman2112]

I have to say I'm on my second play through and I'm at the point where he is in jail and at first I was honestly considering not going to save him, in-spite of the fact that the game would have been forever stuck right there.

 

But that was just an emotional response to the harsh ending of the game and how the story ends.

 

That aside I want to point out something that I think is being overlooked...

 

On 11/24/2018 at 10:04 PM, GenericGTAO said:

He is a rat.  Working for the government.  Dutch even tells him, they are just gonna find another monster, which turns out to be john himself.  John says thats their business.  Yep, john is doing their business and soon as they were done with him, he got what any rat deserves, a ratf--k.  

I know opinions will vary, but I disagree.

 

The 3 founding members of this gang, Dutch, Hosea, and Arthur all told him the same thing...

...Get out of this life.

....You have a kid now and this is no life for the boy.

...Do whatever it takes to make that happen.

 

It took John some time to realize this but eventually he did. Yet the moment he tried to achieve that, it put him in a situation that forced him to uphold that very promise. Even if it meant making sacrifices, and ultimately the ultimate sacrifice himself. However harsh it may be, in the end, he lived up to his word.

 

Regarding who I think betrayed the gang...

 

Video game or not, I've been around for a long time and in all my years I've learned few things, but one stands out in this instance...

 

I don't care who you are, where you're from, or what obstacles you face in life...

In the end, YOU are the author of your own story and the choices you make will ultimately define how that story unfolds. Be them good or bad.

 

That said. The way I see it is...

The ones who betrayed the characters in this story are the characters themselves. I say that because they all made the choice to stay and that was their real downfall in the end. This wasn't some gang that would kill you if you decided to leave. Each had their own free will and the door was open to anyone who decided to walk through it. Dutch all but says that right from the start.

 

I disliked Micah but not for rating on the gang anymore. I say that because anyone who found themselves in a situation where they were facing a choice of "your life, or some info" the choice is obvious.

...and don't sit there and say you wouldn't do the same, because if you would say that then you are thinking with your emotions and not logic.

 

I make that statement with confidence because every biological creature that has ever existed on this planet all have one thing in common besides a little DNA.

The thing we all share is called the jealous gene. 

In a nut shell you protect your own skin because of a built in biological mechanisms that can't be denied.

 

If you doubt this then stick you hand in boiling water and try not to pull it out.

 

...on second thought, let me take that back a bit,

Maybe people today would make that choice but only because of our current standards of humanitarian treatment, and that's only because it's rather unlikely that they would put a hole in your head for not talking.

...although as sad as it is, there are still some places like that.

...but back In those days, if you didn't give up the info they were wanting, you were as good as dead.

Basically what I'm saying is keep the time frame in perspective.

 

Anyway I've stood on my soapbox long enough. You can go back to arguing with each other now lol...

Edited November 26, 2018 by Deadman2112

[FreeMaxB585]

6 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Fixed

 

all I can say is I asked one of the writers and they laughed at that even being an idea

 

maybe you should learn what a rat is moron. as I said a rat would be if john was still with dutch in rd1 and then snitched on him to save himself when they were working together doing dirty business. that would be like if someone saw a robbery go down and called the cops, they are not a rat. the rat would be one of the robbers who sold out his partners even tho they were all in it together doing dirt

[FreeMaxB585]

5 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

I think you're living in a fantasy world, mah dude. Working with the gubment doesn't automatically make someone a rat.

 

 

 

Might I encourage us all to disagree in a more civil tone? There's no need for us to degrade one another or call each other names. Generic is a bit out there with his perspective, but that doesn't mean we get to call him a moron.

 

he is being one. when multiple people explained to him what a rat is. or what the definition of a rat/snitch is. he still cant seem to understand. very clear hes on the slow side

[feckyerlife]

Haven't finished the game yet, but finished all the chapters. I'm thinking Micah was the Rat from the start . When Milton tells Arthur about Molly and Micah, he wasn't expecting to be shot and killed by Abigail at that moment. He told Arthur the Truth about Micah being a rat hoping Arthur would leave and go after him, allowing Milton to come and pick up the pieces from the bloodshed.  Milton would only tell Arthur that Micah was the Rat, if Micah had already used up all his usefulness to the Pinkerton's. Like a lot of people have pointed out, nothing much really happened to the gang after Guarma that wasn't caused by their own faults. Everything that did happen to the gang in the earlier chapters felt like there was a Rat involved.  Some people need to stop looking through the eyes of a modern day snitch. Micah is obviously playing all sides and angles, He's playing the gang, he's playing dutch, he's playing the Pinkerton's. He's playing everyone against everyone and against themselves too. If you were Micah, why wouldn't you make a deal with the Pinkerton's? If you are all about yourself and you know how much money is in Blackwater, why would you not help the Pinkerton's take down the gang, since the gang is what stands in your way of the money. 

[CosmicBuffalo]

22 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

I think you're living in a fantasy world, mah dude. Working with the gubment doesn't automatically make someone a rat.

 

 

 

Might I encourage us all to disagree in a more civil tone? There's no need for us to degrade one another or call each other names. Generic is a bit out there with his perspective, but that doesn't mean we get to call him a moron.

Its not working for the government only...its that he was in the gang and turned on the gang by working for the government.   Would Dutch, Bill, Javier consider him a rat?  I think the answer is without question as yes....Dutch even calls him an "errand boy" 

[Eric Cartman]

Marston works for the government for the sole reason that the government has imprisioned his wife and son and threatened to kill them if he did'nt. He would never go after revenge against Dutch, Javier and Bill by his own will. Of course, that the fact of the gang left him to die in the train heist maybe added some little motivation to it, but John says to Abigail after killing Micah when he gets home: IT'S OVER. If werent for Ross tracking him down and kidnapping his family he would never chased them.

 

About the real traitor, i got to the conclusion that only Micah was the rat, and what happened before Guarma was a result of Dutch's stupid decisions that drove attention to the gang and exposed them.

 

Milton says that Molly hasn't ratted out the gang even though he pressed her to do it. What she does at the camp is a mere lie to attempt to piss off Dutch because he does't give her enough attention (tipical of women).

[FreeMaxB585]

7 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Its not working for the government only...its that he was in the gang and turned on the gang by working for the government.   Would Dutch, Bill, Javier consider him a rat?  I think the answer is without question as yes....Dutch even calls him an "errand boy" 

 

Here is the most upvoted definition you can find. 99% ups

 

in the criminal sense a snitch will provide information to the police or feds in order to obtain lenient treatment for themselves and provide information over an extended period of time in return for money or for police to overlook their own criminal activities. Quite often someone will become an informant following their arrest.

a snitch is not the innocent person who has a serial killer living next door so he tells the police to get the trash out the community. a snitch is one who is slanging dope or doing some other wrong doing and gets caught but instead of taking their punishment like a man they tell the authorities info on other criminals so they can get off scott free or reduce their own punishment. that is a snitch!

 

And no he didnt turn on the damn gang LMAO. he was OUT of the gang. you do realize that red dead 1 was about 5 years after red dead 2 right? And you realize that the epilogue in rd2 is 7 years after his final scene with arthur right? So no he no longer was in the gang. the gang was no more. Also Dutch left Arthur to die TWICE, first time when he was saved by rain falls, the second time at the end when arthur fought with micah, dutch couldve saved him but he didnt. He also left John to die TWICE, first time was going to let him rot in prison, and then during the train robbery he left him. He also was going to leave abigale in prison. So why would he be loyal to some scumbag who let arthur die, was going to let john die (twice) and was going to leave abigale to die or spend her life in prison. AND in rd1 dutch had become insane and was killing and robbing INNOCENT people. Its not like Dutch and John parted ways after duch was a loyal friend, he left john and arthur to die multiple times and abigale.

 

Do you also realize that the gov told John he could go after scumbag dutch who almost killed him and his wife and his best friend Arthur, or be locked up in prison and have his ranched siezed.. WHAT A HARD CHOICE!! Go to prison and lose his families ranch where they become homeless, or not go after a guy who betrayed him and his closest friends and family multiple times, and is killing and robbing innocent people. Again it was TEN YEARS..10. TEN. 10. YEARS from when he was in the gang, no point within those 10 years was he riding or doing any sort of business with any of the gang members, THEY HAD BETRAYED HIM. Killed his best friend and pretty much was content with his entire family being killed. Wow really shouldnt go after those great guys, I mean they gave him such good treatment like leaving him in prison, not going to help him when he fell during the train robbery, saying they werent going to go for abigale because "shes just a girl, we have enough money now to leave forever, its just some girl,".. who cares if a 7 year old has to grow up with no parents!

 

Again it would be one thing if Dutch was great to Johns family at the end, tried to save arthur etc but not even close. It would even be another thing if John was still riding around with dutch doing dirt together and now all of a sudden John wants to turn on him. But neither is the case. There was no gang to turn on because it was 10 years sense he had been with any of them, and they were all the guys that took Dutches and Micahs side over his and arthurs. Damnnn he really should've just went to prison, lost his families ranch, make his family homeless, let the scumbag who pretty much killed his best friend, left him and his family to die numerous times go free. That makes a ton of sense!!!

 

I really cant break it down any better than that. If cant understand it I am just going to assume you are trolling

9 hours ago, feckyerlife said:

Haven't finished the game yet, but finished all the chapters. I'm thinking Micah was the Rat from the start . When Milton tells Arthur about Molly and Micah, he wasn't expecting to be shot and killed by Abigail at that moment. He told Arthur the Truth about Micah being a rat hoping Arthur would leave and go after him, allowing Milton to come and pick up the pieces from the bloodshed.  Milton would only tell Arthur that Micah was the Rat, if Micah had already used up all his usefulness to the Pinkerton's. Like a lot of people have pointed out, nothing much really happened to the gang after Guarma that wasn't caused by their own faults. Everything that did happen to the gang in the earlier chapters felt like there was a Rat involved.  Some people need to stop looking through the eyes of a modern day snitch. Micah is obviously playing all sides and angles, He's playing the gang, he's playing dutch, he's playing the Pinkerton's. He's playing everyone against everyone and against themselves too. If you were Micah, why wouldn't you make a deal with the Pinkerton's? If you are all about yourself and you know how much money is in Blackwater, why would you not help the Pinkerton's take down the gang, since the gang is what stands in your way of the money. 

 

Yea he clearly saw that Micah was trying to play both sides and would take off soon as he had enough money to vanish. He was about to kill arthur so had no reason to lie to him at that point. And we clearly find out that she wasnt the snitch at all that she didnt even give any information she was just drunk and trying to piss Dutch off

Edited November 27, 2018 by FreeMaxB585

[Shadowfennekin]

Molly was just drunk, miserable and pissed at Dutch for ignoring her. She wasn't talking sense, Arthur knew that but everyone else was too quick to react.

Milton wouldn't lie to Arthur, the guy was literally about to kill Arthur so why would he?

 

Micah being a rat the whole time makes perfect sense as everything he's involved with ends up getting f*cked.