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zilapos

Who is the REAL traitor?(Spoiler)

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Jedster
On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 4:19 AM, Watain said:

I believe that Micah's goal from the beginning was to lay hands on the Blackwater money stash. I think there were enough hints at that throughout the entire story, not to mention he's a trigger-happy manipulative maniac.

 

I recall hanging around the camp, either Horseshoe Overlook or the one after that, and there's a random conversation where Micah walks up to Dutch outside of his tent. They talk about the Blackwater money and Micah offers Dutch to go and collect 'em if Dutch tells him where it's stashed. Obviously that doesn't happen, though. He also questioned and suggested to Dutch that they'd give up on all the "extra baggage" in the camp, to which Dutch firmly declined early on.

 

There's also the obvious ear-whispering in Dutch's ear at all times. We also see how Dutch slowly goes from being kind of semi-careful of Micah's propsitions to where he's ultimately poisoned by him. Obviously 'cause Micah wants to get rid of his competition and skeptics (Arthur, John, Sadie, etc.). Without that many people and opposers around, Micah's vision of the gang would have more money, action and success.

 

Basically it just comes down to ego and lust for all the goods an outlaw could take. I believe Micah might've seen a weakness within Dutch, that he was slowly breaking, and used that to his advantage. He played them all.

 

When the Pinkertons came into the camp and offered everybody to turn in Dutch, I guess Micah just took up on that offer later on when he got "picked up". After all, with such a violent personality and approach he was probably pretty easy to track down and arrest. Maybe he's the reason for the gang getting increasingly "sloppy" and busted as well?

This pretty much sums up what I think... Also when Arthur calls Micah a rat on top of the mountain, he replays that he is survivor which suggest that he chose to talk instead of die for the gang and see it as the opportunity to get rid of some gang members (by the hands of Pinkertons) and get closer to Dutch and the Blackwather money. 

It doesn't take a genius to realize that pinkertons would just kill him after he lose his uses for them so he plays for both sides and try to make the best of this situation. He lead them to Lagras hideout and hopes that he can make it out of there with Dutch, ditch the Pinkertons, go collect Blackwather money and disappear. When that doesn't work he continues to poison Dutch to that point that he doesn't even trust Arthur anymore - his "son" who is with him almost his whole life, because of his "doubting" and feed information to Pinkertons.

I think that Bill is just dumb and never liked Arthur and Javier seems like he just don't care to much about who is right at the standout so he choses Dutch's (most convenient) side at that point.

 

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Nokingsman

Personally I think the whole reason there were getting caught at every campaign was due to the fact that they bring chaos everywhere they go. Hell, Colter in the Grizzlies was the quietest chapter, every other camp they get in massive shootouts, shoot up half a town, or all of it, then move on... To the Pinkertons it's probably IDed as the Van Der Linde gang's MO, so they just put the pieces together, Horshoe Overlook got found because Arthur was fishing with JACK, which (at least to me) implies they're relatively close to camp... The whole game sets up how the world is becoming all civil and organized, and that's why the gang's having difficulties disappearing, because of all the calm civilization, it makes em stand out... I don't believe anyone was a rat until after Guarma... I had suspicions that Micah had been setting them up from the start, but he was more of an anonymous tip than actual informant and they only nabbed him upon return to the states... Everyone else seems to at least see Dutch in a brotherly to fatherly light, least until the end, at Beaver Hollow is when everyone breaks apart... Before that the only ones truly cracking were Dutch and Arthur (both because the way they saw the world was forcibly being changed and there was nothing they could do about it). What it boils down to is that whether there was a rat from the start or not, they sewd enough chaos across the heartlands that tracking was a trivial endeavor. Apologies for the meaty post. I'm new to the forum.

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MadHammerThorsteen
13 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

The only person with an exploitable weakness is John.  Abigail being free is pretty suspect.  You kindve assume in Gurma she was captured at the same time with John. Molly then throws off this whole idea, but then Milton contradicts her.  Was Molly a red herring talking nonsense?  I mean the whole idea of being a rat to well known gang of outlaws is pretty much meaningless, people can be a witness in trial, but it doesnt seem that many trials were going on it was more...we know you did it and now youre gonna pay. 

 

Basically if we dont believe Molly, we are back to Abigail and John or Micha, Abigail is most def a ratting type and John is abanondoned again in the train robbery, so they definitely have motive.  Micha's motive is not clear in fact and thats why it doesnt even make sense for him to be ar rat.  He really has nothing to lose.  Whats to stop him from shooting Dutuch taking the money after killing Arthur and running off.  His character is just so unlikeable that we immedaitely assume its him.  For all we know Molly told the truth and got blasted.  Really need to know what happened to Hosea before he dies with Abigail.

Dude, let that theory go. You play as John in both games and it's never even remotely hinted that John had anything to do with the the Pinkertons. If he had, I'd imagine that at the very least, we'd catch inklings of it in the epilogue, but John wanted to be loyal to the end--EVEN after being betrayed by Dutch.

 

John might be a crack shot, but he's also almost as dumb as a bag of rocks, and Rockstar makes that painfully clear at various points. On an intelligence scale, he was smarter than Bill, but even Pearson had more diction. John could never have faked working for the Pinkertons.

 

FYI John didn't want to hunt after Dutch at any point EXCEPT toward the end of RDR when the BOI demanded that he do it to get his family. He was genuinely content to let well enough alone, and he even bitched about having to find more people for them.

 

 

11 hours ago, Nokingsman said:

Horshoe Overlook got found because Arthur was fishing with Jack, which (at least to me) implies they're relatively close to camp...

Horseshoe Overlook never got found. The gang hightailed it out of there after shooting their way out of Valentine when Cornwall's people cornered Dutch.

 

The first time the Pinkertons show up at camp is at after the gang burn down Braithewait Manor. And at that point, the gang had been kicking up so much dust in Lemoyne that the Pinkertons knew exactly where to look.

Edited by MatthewIRL
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zilapos
13 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

The only person with an exploitable weakness is John.  Abigail being free is pretty suspect.  You kindve assume in Gurma she was captured at the same time with John. Molly then throws off this whole idea, but then Milton contradicts her.  Was Molly a red herring talking nonsense?  I mean the whole idea of being a rat to well known gang of outlaws is pretty much meaningless, people can be a witness in trial, but it doesnt seem that many trials were going on it was more...we know you did it and now youre gonna pay. 

 

Basically if we dont believe Molly, we are back to Abigail and John or Micha, Abigail is most def a ratting type and John is abanondoned again in the train robbery, so they definitely have motive.  Micha's motive is not clear in fact and thats why it doesnt even make sense for him to be ar rat.  He really has nothing to lose.  Whats to stop him from shooting Dutuch taking the money after killing Arthur and running off.  His character is just so unlikeable that we immedaitely assume its him.  For all we know Molly told the truth and got blasted.  Really need to know what happened to Hosea before he dies with Abigail.

 

Speaking to Hosea , actually I always thought he is the rat until he got shot , he also have strong motives- suffer enough for Dutch's stupidness , want to retired and live in peace the rest days , only one who have the wisedom can see the doom of this gang , also he once had a talk to John in camp said something like :"You have a life...(something I can't remeber)" , and John reply "I don't know what you mean." , Hosea:" You are not stupid , you know what I mean".

 

Here is a bold guess - Hosea is the one who told Pinkertons about the bank robbery , he is the one who planned , before this job he is always agianst Dutch for being too bold , and then he weirdly insist hitting a biggist bank in the city will work ... where Dutch unnormaly getting nervous , but they eventually agreed only because they trusted Hosea .

 

The last thing make Hosea decide betray is Angelo Bronte , when he strongly disagree Dutch to kill Bronte , he seek for Arthur's help to stop Dutch , but Arthur didn't , there was a despairing face on Hosea and he said :"You will damn us all."

 

After that , Hosea planned a bank robbery he knew will failed , and take Abigail with him because he want John's family alive (same as Arthur) , made a deal with Pinkerton like set them free after this with some money .

 

But Pinkerton betrayed him after all , because they don't want any criminal survive , by the scene that Hosea got shot , the way he turned back and look at Milton , doesn't it look like he trying to say:"It's not our deal" ?

 

What do you think?

 

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Money Over Bullshit

This is one thing (among many) that I found pretty rediculous. The ferry robbery is heavily implied to be a set up and the only thing Micah could have possibly given up is their location in Lagras and/or Beaver Hollow. The Pinkertons are on their tail the whole time which is really unbelievable given the timeframe with its lack of modern surveillance techniques etc. Some of the writing is incredibly bad. Red herrings for the sake of red herrings everywhere to make an otherwise paper thin story seem deeper. Same with the excessive padding between chapters 2 and 4 that make it excessively long (to the point where completion stats for those chapters are under the 5% mark on PS4).

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CosmicBuffalo
15 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

Dude, let that theory go. You play as John in both games and it's never even remotely hinted that John had anything to do with the the Pinkertons. If he had, I'd imagine that at the very least, we'd catch inklings of it in the epilogue, but John wanted to be loyal to the end--EVEN after being betrayed by Dutch.

 

John might be a crack shot, but he's also almost as dumb as a bag of rocks, and Rockstar makes that painfully clear at various points. On an intelligence scale, he was smarter than Bill, but even Pearson had more diction. John could never have faked working for the Pinkertons.

 

FYI John didn't want to hunt after Dutch at any point EXCEPT toward the end of RDR when the BOI demanded that he do it to get his family. He was genuinely content to let well enough alone, and he even bitched about having to find more people for 

I agree that its probably not John, but I cannot rule it out. 

 

As he has more of reason than anyone to turn on the gang. The fact that he is willing at all to hunt down Dutch is a huge betrayal. And shows where his true loyalty lies which is with his family.  Bill and Javier did 0 to him and he hunts them down as well.  He knows full well that none are going quietly and will result in deaths of his closest friends, one who saves his life and good friend in the end of RDR2.  Two others who do absolutely nothing except maybe having his wife.

 

  I lost a ton of respect for John as a character, and it kindve sucks I have to play as him in the end. He is basically as pussy whipped as Dutch says in one of last scenes of the RDR.  Not only that, Abigail could easily be a rat, and John is simply more loyal to her than the gang.  Maybe he never even knows until later which would not make him a rat at all.  And thats where I think the inklings are present, Abigails constant moaning, nothing explicit but maybe R* would have definitvely revealed it at that point, maybe not. Makes perfect sense that he would choose her over the gang. Perfectly natural as well but not very likeable.

 

Anyhow, Micha is most likely the rat as he is a scum bag and will do the best thing for himself.  I just cant say that for certain...maybe you can and thats fine.

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CosmicBuffalo
15 hours ago, zilapos said:

 

Speaking to Hosea , actually I always thought he is the rat until he got shot , he also have strong motives- suffer enough for Dutch's stupidness , want to retired and live in peace the rest days , only one who have the wisedom can see the doom of this gang , also he once had a talk to John in camp said something like :"You have a life...(something I can't remeber)" , and John reply "I don't know what you mean." , Hosea:" You are not stupid , you know what I mean".

 

Here is a bold guess - Hosea is the one who told Pinkertons about the bank robbery , he is the one who planned , before this job he is always agianst Dutch for being too bold , and then he weirdly insist hitting a biggist bank in the city will work ... where Dutch unnormaly getting nervous , but they eventually agreed only because they trusted Hosea .

 

The last thing make Hosea decide betray is Angelo Bronte , when he strongly disagree Dutch to kill Bronte , he seek for Arthur's help to stop Dutch , but Arthur didn't , there was a despairing face on Hosea and he said :"You will damn us all."

 

After that , Hosea planned a bank robbery he knew will failed , and take Abigail with him because he want John's family alive (same as Arthur) , made a deal with Pinkerton like set them free after this with some money .

 

But Pinkerton betrayed him after all , because they don't want any criminal survive , by the scene that Hosea got shot , the way he turned back and look at Milton , doesn't it look like he trying to say:"It's not our deal" ?

 

What do you think?

 

Interesting thought, I never considered Hosea as rat because was a career criminal.  

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jje1000

Interesting note- some of the idle Pinkerton agents after the Saint Denis bank heist note that Blackwater was a setup and was designed to trap the gang.

 

it could very much be that the Pinkertons fed false information to Micah though his sources, who then convinced Dutch to go through with those plans- it could explain a lot of the gang's failings up to Guarma, and other questionable decisions like Dewberry Creek.

 

Edited by jje1000
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MadHammerThorsteen
5 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

I agree that its probably not John, but I cannot rule it out. 

 

As he has more of reason than anyone to turn on the gang. The fact that he is willing at all to hunt down Dutch is a huge betrayal. And shows where his true loyalty lies which is with his family.  Bill and Javier did 0 to him and he hunts them down as well.  He knows full well that none are going quietly and will result in deaths of his closest friends, one who saves his life and good friend in the end of RDR2.  Two others who do absolutely nothing except maybe having his wife.

 

  I lost a ton of respect for John as a character, and it kindve sucks I have to play as him in the end. He is basically as pussy whipped as Dutch says in one of last scenes of the RDR.  Not only that, Abigail could easily be a rat, and John is simply more loyal to her than the gang.  Maybe he never even knows until later which would not make him a rat at all.  And thats where I think the inklings are present, Abigails constant moaning, nothing explicit but maybe R* would have definitvely revealed it at that point, maybe not. Makes perfect sense that he would choose her over the gang. Perfectly natural as well but not very likeable.

 

Anyhow, Micha is most likely the rat as he is a scum bag and will do the best thing for himself.  I just cant say that for certain...maybe you can and thats fine.

The only time John hunts Dutch is 12 years AFTER Dutch had betrayed him, left him for dead, and they parted ways. And further, ONLY because Dutch returned to Blackwater and was very clearly a threat to everyone.

 

Worth noting is that John doesn't have to kill Bill or Javier. Javier can be given to the BOI alive, which John has no reason to suspect they'd kill Javier. And Reyes will kill Bill when Bill tries to whip his gun out on John. Even though John had every reason to kill Bill--getting shot at Fort Mercer, getting swarmed at Mercer station, Bonnie's barn being burned, and Bonnie herself having been raped and hung--John could still choose not to kill Bill. In the end, John didn't even kill Dutch, and I guarantee if Dutch went willingly, John would've handed Dutch over clean and alive.

 

On the other hand, there is an impossible-to-miss moment during John and Arthur's escape in which they cross paths with Dutch and co., and the whole gang starts firing at John and Arthur. In my mind, whatever remaining ties of loyalty John would've had were severed by all of them in that moment. And EVEN THEN, John still had a line or two about loyalty before Arthur put his final foot down for John to leave.

 

John's loyalty to his family came after all of that, once they were all he had. Remember that he didn't turn on Sadie, or Uncle, or Charles. He would've never even bothered going after Bill or Javier had not his family been threatened by the BOI--which is not a dishonorable act on John's part.

 

But if we're talking about loyalty, Bill and Javier obviously kept looking out for each other. Did they ever bother trying to find John? I doubt it. His identity wasn't even secret after getting Beecher's Hope.


As to Abigail being a rat? All she wanted was John's and Jack's safety. How would going to the Pinkertons ever ensure that? She clearly stayed with the gang until the last possible moment when she could've gotten out of there with Jack at any time. She had every reason to be thankful to the gang because they got Jack back from an impossible situation.

 

Further, why would Abigail put John at risk knowing full well the Pinkertons could or would kill indiscriminately? They still ended up throwing John in the bin, and they would've kept him there until his dying breath. If we're implying anything about Abigail ratting after Guarma, why would she have put herself and Jack in danger of a whole army of Pinkertons with a Maxim gun?

 

It just doesn't square up. There was no motivation for Abigail to rat. Her situation would've been a hundred times better if she just disappeared with Jack and left a note, and she had numerous opportunities to do that without the Pinkertons coming for her. Clearly, the gang wasn't in the business of tracking its own down for desertion either. They never bothered with John when he bolted during Jack's birth, but they let him back in when he showed back up. And they always let Trelawney wander off. Nay, Abigail was taken care of where she was.

Edited by MatthewIRL
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BoulderFaceplant

I think when Milton offered them all a chance to live peacefully, he was being honest. At least, I believe Micah thought he was honest. Micah couldn’t take up the offer right there, but he was interested. He’s the only one who is both disloyal and fearless enough  to potentially abandon the gang by getting found out. The only reason he didn’t run off alone after ratting was the Blackwater money that he couldn’t get on his own. 

 

By 1907, Micah had secured the Blackwater money with the help of a new gang, and Dutch was about to join. 

 

Edited by BoulderFaceplant

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FreeMaxB585

Dutch is still the biggest traitor. Micah was scum but dutch was the elader they were his people. he left arthur to die (twice, when the indian saves him and then when micah gets him) was going to leave john in prison, left john to die during the train heist, was going to leave abigale in prison, they were his people he betrayed

 

as far as the rat it was um pretty clear. the lady admitted to all of it and then was shot. the pre micah guam rat

On 11/19/2018 at 11:27 AM, Watain said:

I agree on the lack of credible evidence, but I also don't see why Milton would lie about it. Micah was one of the newest recruits and a very unstable one at that. It's never confirmed or directly implied but if you read between the lines, I think you can assume Micah had a lot to do with the gang getting loud. He just wasn't careful in his approach and Arthur called him out on that when Sean got killed, for instance. I think Micah was simply a violent and somewhat stupid man with lots of ambitions.

 

I also really don't think John was a rat. I just can't see his motives. Why would he rat after he got arrested in Saint Denis? He saw what they did to Hosea right before they arrested him. He also had all of his family and friends back in the camp. Why would he trust to put them at risk at the hands of the Pinkertons' dirty tactics and corruption? It doesn't make sense to me. John also never set out to kill any of them except for Micah. Killing Javier is optional but not intentional. The same with Bill really, except he tries to shoot John and must be shot instead. Dutch did himself in and Ross even called John out on not shooting him. Dutch simply suspected John (and Abigail) because they started to question his mad methods. It was nothing but Dutch's paranoia corrupting him.

 

If anything, I think John was even more loyal to the gang than Arthur was. Like when John and Arthur blew up that bridge, Arthur suggested something and John was very skeptical towards it. John also never goes after any of his former gang members except for Micah. Not until he's forced to do so by Ross some twelve years later. Even though Dutch, Bill and Javier all betrayed/abandoned John, he's still resistant towards killing any of them in RDR1.

 

exactly. if john was the rat he would be protected and treated nice by them. not put in a chain gang. he wouldnt give up his actual kin in the line of fire

On 11/20/2018 at 8:05 AM, GenericGTAO said:

The only person with an exploitable weakness is John.  Abigail being free is pretty suspect.  You kindve assume in Gurma she was captured at the same time with John. Molly then throws off this whole idea, but then Milton contradicts her.  Was Molly a red herring talking nonsense?  I mean the whole idea of being a rat to well known gang of outlaws is pretty much meaningless, people can be a witness in trial, but it doesnt seem that many trials were going on it was more...we know you did it and now youre gonna pay. 

 

Basically if we dont believe Molly, we are back to Abigail and John or Micha, Abigail is most def a ratting type and John is abanondoned again in the train robbery, so they definitely have motive.  Micha's motive is not clear in fact and thats why it doesnt even make sense for him to be ar rat.  He really has nothing to lose.  Whats to stop him from shooting Dutuch taking the money after killing Arthur and running off.  His character is just so unlikeable that we immedaitely assume its him.  For all we know Molly told the truth and got blasted.  Really need to know what happened to Hosea before he dies with Abigail.

 

bro...please lol stop. no offense but you are coming off as a bafoon. yes micah had every incentive it was that or death when they got him after guam. he wasnt loyal to the gang hes only been with them a few months. also he got to play both sides of the fence. remain safe if the pinkertons did win. feed them bits and pieces but if he got the chance to get big money and bolt he would do it and he did. milton had no reason to lie at that point. he is def the rat because they made him the main end game villain for a reason, make him hated as possible. I think you are over thinking things. again if john were ratting he would be putting his wife in son right in the middle of gun battles on both sides

Edited by FreeMaxB585
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MadHammerThorsteen
On 11/20/2018 at 11:35 PM, Money Over Bullsh*t said:

This is one thing (among many) that I found pretty rediculous. The ferry robbery is heavily implied to be a set up and the only thing Micah could have possibly given up is their location in Lagras and/or Beaver Hollow. The Pinkertons are on their tail the whole time which is really unbelievable given the timeframe with its lack of modern surveillance techniques etc. Some of the writing is incredibly bad. Red herrings for the sake of red herrings everywhere to make an otherwise paper thin story seem deeper. Same with the excessive padding between chapters 2 and 4 that make it excessively long (to the point where completion stats for those chapters are under the 5% mark on PS4).

 

I don't think there was a setup at all. The only reason they got caught at all is because random guards went to check on the captain's cabin. Unless you mean the trolly statio  robbery--in which case, it isn't implied. It IS a setup by Bronte.

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Nokingsman
On 11/20/2018 at 8:24 PM, MatthewIRL said:

Dude, let that theory go. You play as John in both games and it's never even remotely hinted that John had anything to do with the the Pinkertons. If he had, I'd imagine that at the very least, we'd catch inklings of it in the epilogue, but John wanted to be loyal to the end--EVEN after being betrayed by Dutch.

 

John might be a crack shot, but he's also almost as dumb as a bag of rocks, and Rockstar makes that painfully clear at various points. On an intelligence scale, he was smarter than Bill, but even Pearson had more diction. John could never have faked working for the Pinkertons.

 

FYI John didn't want to hunt after Dutch at any point EXCEPT toward the end of RDR when the BOI demanded that he do it to get his family. He was genuinely content to let well enough alone, and he even bitched about having to find more people for them.

 

 

Horseshoe Overlook never got found. The gang hightailed it out of there after shooting their way out of Valentine when Cornwall's people cornered Dutch.

 

The first time the Pinkertons show up at camp is at after the gang burn down Braithewait Manor. And at that point, the gang had been kicking up so much dust in Lemoyne that the Pinkertons knew exactly where to look.

Yeah I got confused for a sec... Thats what I meant, but you said it clear, they keep stirring up crap, killing lots of people... Everywhere they go... Only Reason Horseshoe never got found was because they were pretty off the beaten path, every camp I believe kept getting closer to a settlement (I think anyway)... And yeah, I agree John wasn't intelligent enough to play both sides and even if he was I genuinely don't think he would... Even in the epilogue he doesn't just straight up rat anybody out, he never lets slip anything, hell I the first game he makes it very clear that he despises hunting down his old gang, but he has to to save his family... So Idt he'd be a rat regardless, nor Abigail, even though she was pretty angry with everything, it was clear that this was basically her family... Micah was the only one who (at least to me) came off as the bad apple in the bunch from the start... At least in my opinion.

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MadHammerThorsteen
26 minutes ago, Nokingsman said:

Micah was the only one who (at least to me) came off as the bad apple in the bunch from the start... At least in my opinion.

 

I never anticipated Micah ratting, but I very much disliked him almost from the get. Everything he did and said made me think, "he's going to contribute in a major way to the downfall of the gang." Like I said, I didn't expect him to squeel to Pinkertons, but I did kick myself for not seeing it sooner. I distinctly remember being a bit confused and then annoyed that he was at Lagras already when I arrived because Arthur was supposed to be the first person ashore by quite a wide margin, and I found the gang pretty much right away. I had a sense that something was amiss, but I shrugged it off as Micah being the usual self-interested weasel that he was.

Edited by MatthewIRL
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Nokingsman
3 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

 

I never anticipated Micah ratting, but I very much disliked him almost from the get. Everything he did and said made me think, "he's going to contribute in a major way to the downfall of the gang." Like I said, I didn't expect him to squeel to Pinkertons, but I did kick myself for not seeing it sooner. I distinctly remember being a bit confused and then annoyed that he was at Lagras already when I arrived because Arthur was supposed to be the first person ashore by quite a wide margin, and I found the gang pretty much right away. I had a sense that something was amiss, but I shrugged it off as Micah being the usual self-interested weasel that he was.

Until Milton said Micah had been the rat since returning from Guarma, I thought he was the mole right out the gate... What made me think he was def the rat was how cowardly, manipulative, and untrustworthy he was... He always seemed like he was up to something... And if you find his little secret camp, you'll find out that he and his dad are pretty terrible guys, pretty early on... I liked him as a character, but as a person, def not, if that makes sense. Thanks for the reply man.

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MadHammerThorsteen
34 minutes ago, Nokingsman said:

Until Milton said Micah had been the rat since returning from Guarma, I thought he was the mole right out the gate... What made me think he was def the rat was how cowardly, manipulative, and untrustworthy he was... He always seemed like he was up to something... And if you find his little secret camp, you'll find out that he and his dad are pretty terrible guys, pretty early on... I liked him as a character, but as a person, def not, if that makes sense. Thanks for the reply man.

If I hadn't had it spoiled a couple missions early, I probably would've kept thinking that he was kissing Dutch's ass to get whatever it was he wanted out of the partnership. Which was never to the benefit of the gang, but I figured he wanted something. Just couldn't put my finger on it. Once it was spoiled for me, it was sooo damned obvious. I wanted to reach through my screen and personally squeeze the air from his throat at several points before the actual reveal.

Edited by MatthewIRL
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Nokingsman
2 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

If I hadn't had it spoiled a couple missions early, I probably would've kept thinking that he was kissing Dutch's ass to get whatever it was he wanted out of the partnership. Which was never to the benefit of the gang, but I figured he wanted something. Just couldn't put my finger on it. Once it was spoiled for me, it was sooo damned obvious. I wanted to reach through my screen and personally squeeze the air from his throat at several points before the actual reveal.

I somehow avoided having it spoiled, so when I was proven right, thinking back on it, every time he wanted Dutch and the group to go for the Blackwater money the group was in disarray... I think he probably expected most if not the entire group to die, except him of course... I personally loved taking the weasel out in the epilogue... Well deserved comeuppance... Though I would have thought it was funnier if Arthur killed him at the end, even though Arthur was basically dead right there.

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CosmicBuffalo
On 11/21/2018 at 6:27 PM, MatthewIRL said:

The only time John hunts Dutch is 12 years AFTER Dutch had betrayed him, left him for dead, and they parted ways. And further, ONLY because Dutch returned to Blackwater and was very clearly a threat to everyone.

 

Worth noting is that John doesn't have to kill Bill or Javier. Javier can be given to the BOI alive, which John has no reason to suspect they'd kill Javier. And Reyes will kill Bill when Bill tries to whip his gun out on John. Even though John had every reason to kill Bill--getting shot at Fort Mercer, getting swarmed at Mercer station, Bonnie's barn being burned, and Bonnie herself having been raped and hung--John could still choose not to kill Bill. In the end, John didn't even kill Dutch, and I guarantee if Dutch went willingly, John would've handed Dutch over clean and alive.

 

On the other hand, there is an impossible-to-miss moment during John and Arthur's escape in which they cross paths with Dutch and co., and the whole gang starts firing at John and Arthur. In my mind, whatever remaining ties of loyalty John would've had were severed by all of them in that moment. And EVEN THEN, John still had a line or two about loyalty before Arthur put his final foot down for John to leave.

 

John's loyalty to his family came after all of that, once they were all he had. Remember that he didn't turn on Sadie, or Uncle, or Charles. He would've never even bothered going after Bill or Javier had not his family been threatened by the BOI--which is not a dishonorable act on John's part.

 

But if we're talking about loyalty, Bill and Javier obviously kept looking out for each other. Did they ever bother trying to find John? I doubt it. His identity wasn't even secret after getting Beecher's Hope.


As to Abigail being a rat? All she wanted was John's and Jack's safety. How would going to the Pinkertons ever ensure that? She clearly stayed with the gang until the last possible moment when she could've gotten out of there with Jack at any time. She had every reason to be thankful to the gang because they got Jack back from an impossible situation.

 

Further, why would Abigail put John at risk knowing full well the Pinkertons could or would kill indiscriminately? They still ended up throwing John in the bin, and they would've kept him there until his dying breath. If we're implying anything about Abigail ratting after Guarma, why would she have put herself and Jack in danger of a whole army of Pinkertons with a Maxim gun?

 

It just doesn't square up. There was no motivation for Abigail to rat. Her situation would've been a hundred times better if she just disappeared with Jack and left a note, and she had numerous opportunities to do that without the Pinkertons coming for her. Clearly, the gang wasn't in the business of tracking its own down for desertion either. They never bothered with John when he bolted during Jack's birth, but they let him back in when he showed back up. And they always let Trelawney wander off. Nay, Abigail was taken care of where she was.

Dutch saves Sadie and John in the end.  And you reconcile John hunting down Dutch because time has passed...fine for you, but not for me.  Leaving a man behind isnt a betrayal if they think John got caught AGAIN or killed.  Dutch is not convinced John is not a rat until they meet again in the last mission.

 

And the rest of the gang thought John was the rat as well.  The lines are drawn in those last moments.  And its pretty clear, John and Arthur are no longer with Dutch.  Yet you seem to have a certainty about John not being the rat.   I actually agree that he isnt, but I cannot rule it out.  And the reason is Abigail and Jack.  

 

Abigail escapes from Saint Denis, how exactly?  Maybe she gets arrested and cuts a deal when the rest escape to try and get John out, Why exactly are the keeping John alive again?  When you get back from Guruma, the first thing she does is try and get Arthur to go rescue him, and I think you play one mission and then come back and pinkertons are up your butt.  Easy answer, Abigail goes to Milton when they return.  If Molly is lying, who is she protecting, Micha?  

 

I will have to replay the last few missions of RDR2 to get a clear picture.  But RDR, is basically a tale of a selfish family man trying to save his own skin at the expense of  his former closest friends.  John is a rat, Dutch call him as such as well.   

 

If you are still having trouble, let me repeat, Dutch saves John in the end and John hunts him down anyway.  John is a rat in RDR.  Is he in RDR2, cannot say for sure, but most likely not.

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MadHammerThorsteen
9 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Dutch saves Sadie and John in the end.  And you reconcile John hunting down Dutch because time has passed...fine for you, but not for me.  Leaving a man behind isnt a betrayal if they think John got caught AGAIN or killed.  Dutch is not convinced John is not a rat until they meet again in the last mission.

 

And the rest of the gang thought John was the rat as well.  The lines are drawn in those last moments.  And its pretty clear, John and Arthur are no longer with Dutch.  Yet you seem to have a certainty about John not being the rat.   I actually agree that he isnt, but I cannot rule it out.  And the reason is Abigail and Jack.  

 

Abigail escapes from Saint Denis, how exactly?  Maybe she gets arrested and cuts a deal when the rest escape to try and get John out, Why exactly are the keeping John alive again?  When you get back from Guruma, the first thing she does is try and get Arthur to go rescue him, and I think you play one mission and then come back and pinkertons are up your butt.  Easy answer, Abigail goes to Milton when they return.  If Molly is lying, who is she protecting, Micha?  

 

I will have to replay the last few missions of RDR2 to get a clear picture.  But RDR, is basically a tale of a selfish family man trying to save his own skin at the expense of  his former closest friends.  John is a rat, Dutch call him as such as well.   

 

If you are still having trouble, let me repeat, Dutch saves John in the end and John hunts him down anyway.  John is a rat in RDR.  Is he in RDR2, cannot say for sure, but most likely not.

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the truest. There's nothing simple about a theory about Abigail and/or John being rats. You have to explain more than there is information for, and you're using unknowns as opposed to knowns to settle your point.

 

And considering the bad blood as resolved between Dutch and John because Dutch decided to shoot Micah? That's a huge stretch. Dutch was only there for his own self-satisfaction. In fact, if you bother actually trying to kill Micah before Dutch shoots him, he will kill John.

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FreeMaxB585
10 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Dutch saves Sadie and John in the end.  And you reconcile John hunting down Dutch because time has passed...fine for you, but not for me.  Leaving a man behind isnt a betrayal if they think John got caught AGAIN or killed.  Dutch is not convinced John is not a rat until they meet again in the last mission.

 

And the rest of the gang thought John was the rat as well.  The lines are drawn in those last moments.  And its pretty clear, John and Arthur are no longer with Dutch.  Yet you seem to have a certainty about John not being the rat.   I actually agree that he isnt, but I cannot rule it out.  And the reason is Abigail and Jack.  

 

Abigail escapes from Saint Denis, how exactly?  Maybe she gets arrested and cuts a deal when the rest escape to try and get John out, Why exactly are the keeping John alive again?  When you get back from Guruma, the first thing she does is try and get Arthur to go rescue him, and I think you play one mission and then come back and pinkertons are up your butt.  Easy answer, Abigail goes to Milton when they return.  If Molly is lying, who is she protecting, Micha?  

 

I will have to replay the last few missions of RDR2 to get a clear picture.  But RDR, is basically a tale of a selfish family man trying to save his own skin at the expense of  his former closest friends.  John is a rat, Dutch call him as such as well.   

 

If you are still having trouble, let me repeat, Dutch saves John in the end and John hunts him down anyway.  John is a rat in RDR.  Is he in RDR2, cannot say for sure, but most likely not.

 

lmao so many things wrong with this. he isnt a rat at all. him ratting he would have taken his son and abigale away he wouldnt send in people onto a location where massive gun battles will go down where they could end up in the line of fire. milton wouldve told arthur as well, and if he was ratting and helping them he wouldnt have been in a chain gang like that. there is only about 1000x other things where there is 0% chance he is the rat....

 

he isnt really a rat in rd1. it was take down a piece of crap like dutch or have his family messed with and his farm seized 

Edited by FreeMaxB585

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Money Over Bullshit
On 11/22/2018 at 5:03 PM, MatthewIRL said:

 

I don't think there was a setup at all. The only reason they got caught at all is because random guards went to check on the captain's cabin. Unless you mean the trolly statio  robbery--in which case, it isn't implied. It IS a setup by Bronte.

Pretty sure everyone is oblivious to what went wrong. Where did you see this exactly?

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MadHammerThorsteen
9 hours ago, Money Over Bullsh*t said:

Pretty sure everyone is oblivious to what went wrong. Where did you see this exactly?

Where did I see what? The bit about Bronte? Bronte's the one who gave them the intel, and when it fell through, they very vocally assumed Bronte screwed them over with intentionally bad info. It's the whole reason Dutch has the gang raid his manor, to show him Dutch is not a guy to be screwed. Dutch actually trusted Bronte, strangely enough, but he felt like a total fool after the bus station robbery failed.

Edited by MatthewIRL

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CosmicBuffalo
18 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the truest. There's nothing simple about a theory about Abigail and/or John being rats. You have to explain more than there is information for, and you're using unknowns as opposed to knowns to settle your point.

 

And considering the bad blood as resolved between Dutch and John because Dutch decided to shoot Micah? That's a huge stretch. Dutch was only there for his own self-satisfaction. In fact, if you bother actually trying to kill Micah before Dutch shoots him, he will kill John.

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

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marcx666
4 minutes ago, GenericGTAO said:

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

Oh for god sake, John wasnt a rat, he was forced into a situation because his family were being held hostage. Micah WAS a rat, for money and to save his own skin. Totally different.

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Cutter De Blanc

I kind of assumed Hosea sacrificed himself so Abigail could escape

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CosmicBuffalo

 

2 hours ago, marcx666 said:

Oh for god sake, John wasnt a rat, he was forced into a situation because his family were being held hostage. Micah WAS a rat, for money and to save his own skin. Totally different.

If by forced you mean volutarily hunting down former gang members/friends/father figures/brothers so he gets a lighter punishment, then you are correct.  John and Micha ratting arent that different than one another in my book.  John is actually slightly worse as he was raised by Dutch.

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MadHammerThorsteen
7 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

You're not a rat if you're not rolling with the guy. They weren't friends or family any longer. John was just a man whose priorities were in conflict with another man's priorities. That other man just happened to be someone he used to know.

Edited by MatthewIRL

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CosmicBuffalo
1 hour ago, MatthewIRL said:

You're not a rat if you're not rolling with the guy. They weren't friends or family any longer. John was just a man whose priorities were in conflict with another man's priorities. That other man just happened to be someone he used to know.

He is a rat.  Working for the government.  Dutch even tells him, they are just gonna find another monster, which turns out to be john himself.  John says thats their business.  Yep, john is doing their business and soon as they were done with him, he got what any rat deserves, a ratf--k.  

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FreeMaxB585
10 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

Yeah because Dutch is the one redeeming himself.  Dutch made his choice on who the rat was in the end.  Was he right?  A few years later Rat Marston was hunting him down.  John is still a bad ass but he really is a pretty big rat.  Tony Soprano definitely would have put him down on the mountain.   

 

lmao must be trolling. john was never a rat. in red dead 1 it was bring down scum like dutch or lose his ranch. a rat would be if john was still in dutches gang as friends and then sold him out to save his own skin. you dont even know the definition

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CosmicBuffalo
8 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

lmao must be trolling. john was a rat. in red dead 1 it was bring [former gang members] like dutch or lose his ranch. a rat would be john [because he was in] dutches gang as friends and then sold [Dutch] out to save his own skin. [Freemax] is either trolling or [doesnt] even know the definition

Fixed

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