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zilapos

Who is the REAL traitor?(Spoiler)

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zilapos

We all knew in the end of game , Milton reveal Micah is the rat , but there is something confuse me.
 

Acording to Milton's word:" Micah Bell , We picked him up , when you boys came back from Caribbeen , and he's been a good boy ever since. "
 

Now we know that Micah is betrayed the gang since they came back from Guama , but the thing is , after chapter 5 , actually there is nothing to betrayed for , the action of gang is all success and none related to Pinkerton , kill Cornwall , rob train , screw with military ...etc.
 

If Micah is a traitor , what kind of information he told to Pinkerton ? and if do so , what harm to the gang? and why he do that ?
 

I'll say in the whole story , only the Saint Denny bank robbery mission possible exist traitor , but that is far beyond the timeline Milton mentioned , even it is not , in that action Micah is one of the fighter in bank , risk his life in gunfire and end miserable on Guama like every one else , is that really a traitor kind?
 

Is it really fair to blame all the failure of gang on Micah?
 

Is it possible Milton is lying ? in order to separate the gang ?
 

What do you guys think?

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burger_mike
18 minutes ago, zilapos said:

We all knew in the end of game , Milton reveal Micah is the rat , but there is something confuse me.
 

Acording to Milton's word:" Micah Bell , We picked him up , when you boys came back from Caribbeen , and he's been a good boy ever since. "
 

Now we know that Micah is betrayed the gang since they came back from Guama , but the thing is , after chapter 5 , actually there is nothing to betrayed for , the action of gang is all success and none related to Pinkerton , kill Cornwall , rob train , screw with military ...etc.
 

If Micah is a traitor , what kind of information he told to Pinkerton ? and if do so , what harm to the gang? and why he do that ?
 

I'll say in the whole story , only the Saint Denny bank robbery mission possible exist traitor , but that is far beyond the timeline Milton mentioned , even it is not , in that action Micah is one of the fighter in bank , risk his life in gunfire and end miserable on Guama like every one else , is that really a traitor kind?
 

Is it really fair to blame all the failure of gang on Micah?
 

Is it possible Milton is lying ? in order to separate the gang ?
 

What do you guys think?

I forgot that milton said that they picked up micah after guarma

 

i was replaying today thinking micah was the rat from the beginning of the game and was only in dutches ear moving the gang east and making them do dumb sh*t just to split them up and destroy them

 

but i think arthur was right, they were just too sloppy 

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MadHammerThorsteen

It's safe to assume that they were nailed during the bank rkbbery because they were already in well-established Pinkerton territory, and Milton had already been thoroughly warned them once at their camp to cool it. They were getting sloppy, and the raid on Bronte's hiuse was clearly them, and the train station robbery was clearly them. The Pinkerton's had their number. They knew things would only.escalate, so they waited for Dutch to get bold.

 

Can Micah take the blame? For everything that happened after Guarma, abso-flippin-lutely. Pinkertons launching a full assault on Lagras? Micah. Pinkertons surrounding them all at Beaver Hollow? Micah. Leading Dutch on to do crazier and crazier sh*t that would expose both himself and the gang? 100% Micah.

 

They screwed up bad in St. Denis with the bank robbery, but without being pushed up into Murfree territory, they could've pulled together long enough in Lagras to plan a little better. Dutch was already on his dark path, but he would not have been so desparate in the end to create havoc if he hadn't been pushed to the edge with the Lagras attack and if he didn't have Micah manipulating strings for the Pinkertons. They all would probably have gone down one way or the other, but nowhere near as quickly or disastrously as they did had Micah not turned rat.

Edited by MatthewIRL

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durkahdurkah

the Pinkertons are being funded by Leviticus Cornwall to catch Dutch. And yet, when Micah becomes the rat, immediately he and Dutch come up with a plan that involves killing Leviticus in broad daylight. 

 

The Pinkertons should have known then and there not to trust him.. but weirdly they did.

 

am I missing something?

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zilapos
2 hours ago, durkahdurkah said:

the Pinkertons are being funded by Leviticus Cornwall to catch Dutch. And yet, when Micah becomes the rat, immediately he and Dutch come up with a plan that involves killing Leviticus in broad daylight. 

 

The Pinkertons should have known then and there not to trust him.. but weirdly they did.

 

am I missing something?

 

That's a good point ! especially by the time they attack Cornwall , Milton and Ross just left that boat of Cornwall minutes ago .

 

If Micah really is a good boy of Pinkerton , should'nt he sell Dutch out by that point ? that's a perfect timing , Pinkerton's guy + Cornwall's guard , Dutch and Arthur will definitely hopless if Micah told Milton earlyer.

 

 

 

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zilapos
3 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

It's safe to assume that they were nailed during the bank rkbbery because they were already in well-established Pinkerton territory, and Milton had already been thoroughly warned them once at their camp to cool it. They were getting sloppy, and the raid on Bronte's hiuse was clearly them, and the train station robbery was clearly them. The Pinkerton's had their number. They knew things would only.escalate, so they waited for Dutch to get bold.

 

Can Micah take the blame? For everything that happened after Guarma, abso-flippin-lutely. Pinkertons launching a full assault on Lagras? Micah. Pinkertons surrounding them all at Beaver Hollow? Micah. Leading Dutch on to do crazier and crazier sh*t that would expose both himself and the gang? 100% Micah.

 

They screwed up bad in St. Denis with the bank robbery, but without being pushed up into Murfree territory, they could've pulled together long enough in Lagras to plan a little better. Dutch was already on his dark path, but he would not have been so desparate in the end to create havoc if he hadn't been pushed to the edge with the Lagras attack and if he didn't have Micah manipulating strings for the Pinkertons. They all would probably have gone down one way or the other, but nowhere near as quickly or disastrously as they did had Micah not turned rat.

 

But the funny thing is , if Milton didn't told Arthur Micah is a rat , they probably still had a chance stay united to survive the last attack and walk away with money , actualy , all the men did survive except Arthur .


This make me wandering , if Micah really is a rat , what he actually want ? If the doom of Van der lin is his wish , he have so much chance to kill or sold Dutch out in action , way better then tell Pinkerton where their base are and risk his own life in ratling gun fire .

IIfferr

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Oldsport

i think micah just wants to be dutch. he probably wants him out of the picture just so he can have no competition.

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marcx666

Honestly, I think Micah was try to get everyone out of the way so he can get the blackwater money. I honestly believe he ratted us out to Colm O'Driscoll. Remember that he was the one who set up the meeting with Colm, and only him and Dutch knew Arthur would be there and exactly where. It was MIcahs idea for Arthur to provide overwatch and exactly where he was going to do it from.

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We Are Ninja
9 hours ago, durkahdurkah said:

the Pinkertons are being funded by Leviticus Cornwall to catch Dutch. And yet, when Micah becomes the rat, immediately he and Dutch come up with a plan that involves killing Leviticus in broad daylight. 

 

The Pinkertons should have known then and there not to trust him.. but weirdly they did.

 

am I missing something?

 

They never trusted him, they had a use for him. Once he had outlived is usefulness, they would have offed him...

Spoiler

just like they did John at the end of RDR1

 

Edited by We Are Ninja

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zilapos
7 hours ago, Oldsport said:

i think micah just wants to be dutch. he probably wants him out of the picture just so he can have no competition.

 

I doubt that , Micah never had a move actual threaten Dutch's life even he had lot of chance .

Micah wants to be Arthur will make more sense , looks like he had been jealous Arthur a long time.

 

 

7 hours ago, marcx666 said:

Honestly, I think Micah was try to get everyone out of the way so he can get the blackwater money. I honestly believe he ratted us out to Colm O'Driscoll. Remember that he was the one who set up the meeting with Colm, and only him and Dutch knew Arthur would be there and exactly where. It was MIcahs idea for Arthur to provide overwatch and exactly where he was going to do it from.

 

Actually is Pearson who set up the meeting , all Micah do is just advice , he do have the motivation sold Arthur out though , but anyway in the end no one die by that meeting .

 

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marcx666
5 minutes ago, zilapos said:

 

I doubt that , Micah never had a move actual threaten Dutch's life even he had lot of chance .

Micah wants to be Arthur will make more sense , looks like he had been jealous Arthur a long time.

 

 

 

Actually is Pearson who set up the meeting , all Micah do is just advice , he do have the motivation sold Arthur out though , but anyway in the end no one die by that meeting .

 

Aye it was, youre right, but, Arthur could well have died, seeing as Colm captured and tortured him with the intent on killing him, which would have removed one more person who had Dutchs ear.

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jje1000

There are definitely a few things left unexplained, or floating around for players to speculate about between Chapters 4-6 & the epilogue. There's a lot of nebulousness in the way the events are presented:

 

  1. The Bank Heist disaster- Who ratted the gang out- or was it just that the Pinkertons picked up on their activity?
  2. The Blackwater disaster- Idle Pinkerton agents state that Blackwater was a trap, but what else did they have planned? How did they lead the gang into those traps?
  3. Molly's actions- did she really rat out the gang? Arthur believes that she was innocent in the final confrontation (if the player chooses the money route).
  4. Micah's involvement with the Pinkertons- Milton states that they picked up Micah after Guarma, and I doubt he was lying. What was he telling them? It seemed like the gang's heists and activities were largely successful during Chapter 6.
  5. The extent of Pinkerton action against the gang- How much did they know about the gang's plans from their own investigations? What were their plans to take the gang down? Was it just the Lagras and final Beaver Hollow operations?
  6. Micah's motives- What was Micah pushing Dutch to do? Was Micah really just looking out for himself when he allowed Dutch to kill Cornwall (maybe thinking he could stop Pinkerton funding by playing both sides)? Why was he so insistent on the Blackwater money?
  7. Dutch's motives- What was Dutch's line of thought in his plans? Would he and the gang have been able to continue after Beaver Hollow if they had stayed together?

  8. What happened afterwards- Did Micah still work with the Pinkertons/ Bureau of Investigation? Who got the money from Blackwater? Why did Dutch get back with Micah in the end?

 

Unfortunately player speculation is worth little unless the writers explain, or allow for a more solid extrapolation. However, some of them could be tied into Arthur's arc as thematic contrasts. For instance, even though the gang is more successful in Chapter 6, it comes at an increasing moral costs- something Arthur can no longer accept. On top of that, he likely thinks that even if the gang escapes Beaver Hollow, the government will stop at nothing to get them because of their actions in Chapter 6, which is evident in RDR1 when the Bureau drags John out from his home to get Dutch- so even though they had the money, there was none of the fabled freedom in the end. That meant that Arthur thought he had to get the Marstons out at that point right there.

 

I sort of wish that Milton had said that they had picked Micah up just before Guarma, it would have made his treachery worse, made Molly more of a tragic character, and neatly wrapped up some of the questions raised. However, Micah's actions do make more sense if you imagine him as a completely self-serving individual, and not one loyal to Dutch or the Pinkertons.

 

It also kind of makes sense in the overall theme of the story of outlaws in a "world that doesn't want them no more" that Micah isn't an inherently malevolent force out to destroy the gang- rather, he represents the extreme end of the outlaw life with an every-man-for-himself mentality- it just happens that he's there for the ride and to make a few bucks just as the gang literally gets stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

Edited by jje1000

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marcx666

My thoughts are this.

 

Molly never ratted, hell, Milton even says they tried to get her to flip but she wouldnt. Her outburst was because she was pissed at Dutch and drunk and wanted to hurt him.

 

Micah wanted the money from the Blackwater Heist, pure and simple, when Dutch refused to go back originally he started trying to remove people who Dutch listened to, like setting Arthur up to be killed by Colm O'Driscoll. He got picked up after they got back from Guarma and that is how the Pinkertons found them right when they got back, when everyone thought Bills big mouth had led them to the camp.Micah got the money from blackwater, which is the money John finds after killing Micah. 

 

Dutch didnt show up to work with Micah, he showed up to kill Micah, as his response when John asks him why hes here indicates "Same reason as you I suspect"

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jje1000
33 minutes ago, marcx666 said:

Dutch didnt show up to work with Micah, he showed up to kill Micah, as his response when John asks him why hes here indicates "Same reason as you I suspect"

I'm wondering about the final confrontation, what does Dutch mean in these statements during the confrontation?
 

Quote

 

Dutch: "You shot at me, son..."

John: "You started it."

Dutch: "You betrayed me."

John: "I could say the same as you."

Dutch: "I was trying to do my best...you...you just cared for yourself."

 

 

I wonder if this ties into Dutch's abandonment of John after the Saint Denis bank heist, and during the final train heist- did he think that John was the rat?

 

I think his motives for getting together with Micah are also not completely clear- he will shoot John if John shoots Micah first. Does John's mentioning of Arthur bring a moment of clarity into Dutch's head? He does sounds mournful in his last statement before shooting Micah.

 

 

Edited by jje1000

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Gray-Hand

In that scene where Dutch and Arthur are following that old lady through the tunnels, it is quite clear that Dutch suspects that John and/or Abigail betrayed him.

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marcx666
13 minutes ago, jje1000 said:

I'm wondering about the final confrontation, what does Dutch mean in these statements during the confrontation?
 

 

I wonder if this ties into Dutch's abandonment of John after the Saint Denis bank heist, and during the final train heist- did he think that John was the rat?

 

I think his motives for getting together with Micah are also not completely clear- he will shoot John if John shoots Micah first. Does John's mentioning of Arthur bring a moment of clarity into Dutch's head? He does sounds mournful in his last statement before shooting Micah.

 

 

I think Dutch suspicion of John was probably Micah based, as part of Micahs plan to remove everyone, Micah sowing the seeds of doubt in Dutchs mind, to try and remove people who were loyal to Dutch and who Dutch trusted, unfortunatly where Dutchs paranoia took over and he started losing himself he was easier to influence bu Micah who saw the opportunity. 

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jje1000

Another question would be why Micah chooses to attack Arthur (beyond gameplay reasons) in the finale- is it frustration that a nearly successful plan had been thrown into disarray due to the gang's split at the worst possible minute?

 

Note that the gang was basically packing up just as Arthur arrived, and right before the Pinkertons attacked. Would it have made more sense if Micah had just gone for the money and left? Was he still expecting the gang to stay together after that?

 

 

Edited by jje1000

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Watain

I believe that Micah's goal from the beginning was to lay hands on the Blackwater money stash. I think there were enough hints at that throughout the entire story, not to mention he's a trigger-happy manipulative maniac.

 

I recall hanging around the camp, either Horseshoe Overlook or the one after that, and there's a random conversation where Micah walks up to Dutch outside of his tent. They talk about the Blackwater money and Micah offers Dutch to go and collect 'em if Dutch tells him where it's stashed. Obviously that doesn't happen, though. He also questioned and suggested to Dutch that they'd give up on all the "extra baggage" in the camp, to which Dutch firmly declined early on.

 

There's also the obvious ear-whispering in Dutch's ear at all times. We also see how Dutch slowly goes from being kind of semi-careful of Micah's propsitions to where he's ultimately poisoned by him. Obviously 'cause Micah wants to get rid of his competition and skeptics (Arthur, John, Sadie, etc.). Without that many people and opposers around, Micah's vision of the gang would have more money, action and success.

 

Basically it just comes down to ego and lust for all the goods an outlaw could take. I believe Micah might've seen a weakness within Dutch, that he was slowly breaking, and used that to his advantage. He played them all.

 

When the Pinkertons came into the camp and offered everybody to turn in Dutch, I guess Micah just took up on that offer later on when he got "picked up". After all, with such a violent personality and approach he was probably pretty easy to track down and arrest. Maybe he's the reason for the gang getting increasingly "sloppy" and busted as well?

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jje1000

These interpretations are definitely very interesting- it's like the gang members were the equivalent of the angel and devil on Dutch's shoulder, giving advice towards two different desires (freedom & justice vs a more tangible violence and greed).

 

Of course, Arthur does think that Dutch may have been like this all along, but you'd never know if it was a balancing act between good and evil, or just Hosea and Arthur stopping the evil natures from emerging in Dutch's personality.

 

Edited by jje1000

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zilapos
3 hours ago, jje1000 said:

 

I sort of wish that Milton had said that they had picked Micah up just before Guarma, it would have made his treachery worse, made Molly more of a tragic character, and neatly wrapped up some of the questions raised. However, Micah's actions do make more sense if you imagine him as a completely self-serving individual, and not one loyal to Dutch or the Pinkertons.

 

 

 

True , if they change Milton's word a little it would make lot more sense , I think either the Rockstar want player notice that and start deep thinking , or just a writer's mistake .

 

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zilapos
3 hours ago, marcx666 said:

My thoughts are this.

 

Molly never ratted, hell, Milton even says they tried to get her to flip but she wouldnt. Her outburst was because she was pissed at Dutch and drunk and wanted to hurt him.

 

Micah wanted the money from the Blackwater Heist, pure and simple, when Dutch refused to go back originally he started trying to remove people who Dutch listened to, like setting Arthur up to be killed by Colm O'Driscoll. He got picked up after they got back from Guarma and that is how the Pinkertons found them right when they got back, when everyone thought Bills big mouth had led them to the camp.Micah got the money from blackwater, which is the money John finds after killing Micah. 

 

Dutch didnt show up to work with Micah, he showed up to kill Micah, as his response when John asks him why hes here indicates "Same reason as you I suspect"

 

But Micah didn't knew where the money hide in blackwater , as I remember Dutch is the only one knew it and never told to Micah .

 

 

3 hours ago, jje1000 said:

I'm wondering about the final confrontation, what does Dutch mean in these statements during the confrontation?
 

 

I wonder if this ties into Dutch's abandonment of John after the Saint Denis bank heist, and during the final train heist- did he think that John was the rat?

 

I think his motives for getting together with Micah are also not completely clear- he will shoot John if John shoots Micah first. Does John's mentioning of Arthur bring a moment of clarity into Dutch's head? He does sounds mournful in his last statement before shooting Micah.

 

 

 

Is it a revenge for Arthur ? or a punishment for traitor ? what is the meaning of staring at face after John finished Micah ?

I guess there is a lot mystery in the final scene , maybe not simple as it look.

 

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zilapos
2 hours ago, Watain said:

I believe that Micah's goal from the beginning was to lay hands on the Blackwater money stash. I think there were enough hints at that throughout the entire story, not to mention he's a trigger-happy manipulative maniac.

 

I recall hanging around the camp, either Horseshoe Overlook or the one after that, and there's a random conversation where Micah walks up to Dutch outside of his tent. They talk about the Blackwater money and Micah offers Dutch to go and collect 'em if Dutch tells him where it's stashed. Obviously that doesn't happen, though. He also questioned and suggested to Dutch that they'd give up on all the "extra baggage" in the camp, to which Dutch firmly declined early on.

 

There's also the obvious ear-whispering in Dutch's ear at all times. We also see how Dutch slowly goes from being kind of semi-careful of Micah's propsitions to where he's ultimately poisoned by him. Obviously 'cause Micah wants to get rid of his competition and skeptics (Arthur, John, Sadie, etc.). Without that many people and opposers around, Micah's vision of the gang would have more money, action and success.

 

Basically it just comes down to ego and lust for all the goods an outlaw could take. I believe Micah might've seen a weakness within Dutch, that he was slowly breaking, and used that to his advantage. He played them all.

 

When the Pinkertons came into the camp and offered everybody to turn in Dutch, I guess Micah just took up on that offer later on when he got "picked up". After all, with such a violent personality and approach he was probably pretty easy to track down and arrest. Maybe he's the reason for the gang getting increasingly "sloppy" and busted as well?

 

It's true that Micah influence Dutch and make the gang more evil and crazy , but is that an order by Pinkerton ? in the end the gang had lose all unnecessary member , all the remain is good fighter , it's way more hard to track down a small group of men then a large camp by women and children , I think Pinkerton will not like that.

 

Micah did had the gang gone wrong , but it's more like his nature , and so is Dutch , it's not that easy to change a man's thought , you can only let the inside of them out.

 

 

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Watain
7 hours ago, zilapos said:

 

It's true that Micah influence Dutch and make the gang more evil and crazy , but is that an order by Pinkerton ? in the end the gang had lose all unnecessary member , all the remain is good fighter , it's way more hard to track down a small group of men then a large camp by women and children , I think Pinkerton will not like that.

 

Micah did had the gang gone wrong , but it's more like his nature , and so is Dutch , it's not that easy to change a man's thought , you can only let the inside of them out.

The Pinkertons made it clear they only cared about Dutch, though. They were probably well aware of his charisma and intellect, fearing he could always put together or influence new gangs (which he also did).

 

In the end it didn't matter that the original Van der Linde gang dissolved. Dutch was still out there causing trouble, hence why they later sent John after him in 1911.

 

I think the Pinkertons saw Micah as all muscle and no brains. Threaten him with jail/hanging and he'll comply, kind of. He was seemingly pretty broken when jailed, before Arthur rescued him. But being the wild animal Micah was, he wasn't just gonna hand over Dutch without knowing the whereabouts of the Blackwater money first. He needed Dutch just as much as the Pinkies wanted him.

 

Dutch was always one step ahead of everyone else.

Edited by Watain

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Fugitive21

Some of these are great.

 

The way I take it. Micah wanted to be Dutch or for him to be that true right hand guy Arthur was to Dutch. He wanted to be that close so maybe Dutch would tell him where the Black water money is. Micah wanted that money so bad he knew he either had to manipulate Dutch to spilling the beans or get a way to get rid of Arthur (those botched jobs). When he got caught became the rat he had to keep tugging Dutch to do stupid jobs in hoping either Dutch will say screw it and go back for the black water money or slip up and say where it was.

 

I don't think the Pinkertons would make up that story because they could have easily said it was Arthur or John or anybody else to drive the gang apart. Through the game Micah just give hints and actions that he was a rat.

 

 

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CosmicBuffalo

There is actually very little credible evidence to suggest that Micha was the rat. Milton's disclosure could be just a ploy to try and get Arthur to flip.  Micha is a certifiable twat and looks like a rat, but thats not enough in my mind to say he actually did flip.

 

 In fact, John very well could still be the rat as he was captured in the bank robbery.  He has motive abandoned and a family.  Johns quest to kill Dutch is also such a betrayal as Dutch essentially kills Micha to save Sadie.  Yet, John hunts down Dutch essentially as a rat.  Bill and Javier what did they do to John?  To be hunted down like dogs by John.  John is highly suspsious, but its hard to say as there no direct evidence either of them.  Or atleast none to my knowledge.  Micha is the rat if I had to guess.

Edited by GenericGTAO

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Watain
4 hours ago, GenericGTAO said:

There is actually very little credible evidence to suggest that Micha was the rat. Milton's disclosure could be just a ploy to try and get Arthur to flip.  Micha is a certifiable twat and looks like a rat, but thats not enough in my mind to say he actually did flip.

 

 In fact, John very well could still be the rat as he was captured in the bank robbery.  He has motive abandoned and a family.  Johns quest to kill Dutch is also such a betrayal as Dutch essentially kills Micha to save Sadie.  Yet, John hunts down Dutch essentially as a rat.  Bill and Javier what did they do to John?  To be hunted down like dogs by John.  John is highly suspsious, but its hard to say as there no direct evidence either of them.  Or atleast none to my knowledge.  Micha is the rat if I had to guess.

I agree on the lack of credible evidence, but I also don't see why Milton would lie about it. Micah was one of the newest recruits and a very unstable one at that. It's never confirmed or directly implied but if you read between the lines, I think you can assume Micah had a lot to do with the gang getting loud. He just wasn't careful in his approach and Arthur called him out on that when Sean got killed, for instance. I think Micah was simply a violent and somewhat stupid man with lots of ambitions.

 

I also really don't think John was a rat. I just can't see his motives. Why would he rat after he got arrested in Saint Denis? He saw what they did to Hosea right before they arrested him. He also had all of his family and friends back in the camp. Why would he trust to put them at risk at the hands of the Pinkertons' dirty tactics and corruption? It doesn't make sense to me. John also never set out to kill any of them except for Micah. Killing Javier is optional but not intentional. The same with Bill really, except he tries to shoot John and must be shot instead. Dutch did himself in and Ross even called John out on not shooting him. Dutch simply suspected John (and Abigail) because they started to question his mad methods. It was nothing but Dutch's paranoia corrupting him.

 

If anything, I think John was even more loyal to the gang than Arthur was. Like when John and Arthur blew up that bridge, Arthur suggested something and John was very skeptical towards it. John also never goes after any of his former gang members except for Micah. Not until he's forced to do so by Ross some twelve years later. Even though Dutch, Bill and Javier all betrayed/abandoned John, he's still resistant towards killing any of them in RDR1.

Edited by Watain

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feckyerlife
17 hours ago, jje1000 said:

 

  1. Micah's motives- What was Micah pushing Dutch to do? Was Micah really just looking out for himself when he allowed Dutch to kill Cornwall (maybe thinking he could stop Pinkerton funding by playing both sides)? Why was he so insistent on the Blackwater money?

in the chapter 4 stage coach robbery with Bill and Micah, Micah does start to mention his motives. Obviously they could've changed after he was picked up, but  his plan at that point was to break the gang up. it seemed to work in the end.

16 hours ago, jje1000 said:

I'm wondering about the final confrontation, what does Dutch mean in these statements during the confrontation?
 

 

I wonder if this ties into Dutch's abandonment of John after the Saint Denis bank heist, and during the final train heist- did he think that John was the rat?

 

 

Same mission as i mentioned above. Micah mentions during the ride that he has gotten in Dutch's ear too turn him against john and basically said it was working.  IMO by the time of the Bank Heist, Micah had created enough Doubt of John in Dutch's head. 

15 hours ago, jje1000 said:

Another question would be why Micah chooses to attack Arthur (beyond gameplay reasons) in the finale- is it frustration that a nearly successful plan had been thrown into disarray due to the gang's split at the worst possible minute?

 

Note that the gang was basically packing up just as Arthur arrived, and right before the Pinkertons attacked. Would it have made more sense if Micah had just gone for the money and left? Was he still expecting the gang to stay together after that?

 

 

You might've missed the mission above. but Micah says that the gang should trim down from 20 to 6 or 7, basically down to the actual outlaws and get rid of everyone else.  

Edited by feckyerlife

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Fugitive21

Could be Micah's plan to be a rat and in all also trying to kill all who knew he was the rat. Turn Dutch to kill cornwall and the the pinkertons that nobody would know he was a rat. OR....Push Dutch to get all they can and run so nobody would find out he was the rat. 

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zilapos
14 hours ago, Fugitive21 said:

Some of these are great.

 

The way I take it. Micah wanted to be Dutch or for him to be that true right hand guy Arthur was to Dutch. He wanted to be that close so maybe Dutch would tell him where the Black water money is. Micah wanted that money so bad he knew he either had to manipulate Dutch to spilling the beans or get a way to get rid of Arthur (those botched jobs). When he got caught became the rat he had to keep tugging Dutch to do stupid jobs in hoping either Dutch will say screw it and go back for the black water money or slip up and say where it was.

 

I don't think the Pinkertons would make up that story because they could have easily said it was Arthur or John or anybody else to drive the gang apart. Through the game Micah just give hints and actions that he was a rat.

 

 

 

Let's think about it , if Pinketons want to separate the gang , what would they do ?

 

Tell Arthur John is the rat ? Arthur won't believe it without a proof , same as Bill..Charlse..Jaiver ,  but Micah ? Yes ! Arthur almost blindly take that word , just because he hate Micah so much , and he want somebody take responsible for Dutch's change .

 

On the other hand , tell Micah Arthur or John is rat ?  which is no point at all because Micah already have that thought in mind and telling Dutch all the time , and Dutch won't actual believe it without proof too .

 

Also , when Arthur grab Milton's hand fighting for the gun , in that event even if you not push any button , Milton won't shoot Arthur anyway even the gun is already point at his head , doesn't that mean Arthur still useful for Milton?

 

Let's asume this is Milton's lie , wasn't that a perfact lie ? while Arthur is almost dead but still breathing , he have such short time to think or find soulution , all he can do is draw out the gun and ask Micah . also , release a half dead man back to camp won't threat Pinkerton anyway , even if they killed Arthur , they still got Abigal and Sadie , release them will be less effect but still work .

 

 

 

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CosmicBuffalo
20 hours ago, Watain said:

I agree on the lack of credible evidence, but I also don't see why Milton would lie about it. Micah was one of the newest recruits and a very unstable one at that. It's never confirmed or directly implied but if you read between the lines, I think you can assume Micah had a lot to do with the gang getting loud. He just wasn't careful in his approach and Arthur called him out on that when Sean got killed, for instance. I think Micah was simply a violent and somewhat stupid man with lots of ambitions.

 

I also really don't think John was a rat. I just can't see his motives. Why would he rat after he got arrested in Saint Denis? He saw what they did to Hosea right before they arrested him. He also had all of his family and friends back in the camp. Why would he trust to put them at risk at the hands of the Pinkertons' dirty tactics and corruption? It doesn't make sense to me. John also never set out to kill any of them except for Micah. Killing Javier is optional but not intentional. The same with Bill really, except he tries to shoot John and must be shot instead. Dutch did himself in and Ross even called John out on not shooting him. Dutch simply suspected John (and Abigail) because they started to question his mad methods. It was nothing but Dutch's paranoia corrupting him.

 

If anything, I think John was even more loyal to the gang than Arthur was. Like when John and Arthur blew up that bridge, Arthur suggested something and John was very skeptical towards it. John also never goes after any of his former gang members except for Micah. Not until he's forced to do so by Ross some twelve years later. Even though Dutch, Bill and Javier all betrayed/abandoned John, he's still resistant towards killing any of them in RDR1.

The only person with an exploitable weakness is John.  Abigail being free is pretty suspect.  You kindve assume in Gurma she was captured at the same time with John. Molly then throws off this whole idea, but then Milton contradicts her.  Was Molly a red herring talking nonsense?  I mean the whole idea of being a rat to well known gang of outlaws is pretty much meaningless, people can be a witness in trial, but it doesnt seem that many trials were going on it was more...we know you did it and now youre gonna pay. 

 

Basically if we dont believe Molly, we are back to Abigail and John or Micha, Abigail is most def a ratting type and John is abanondoned again in the train robbery, so they definitely have motive.  Micha's motive is not clear in fact and thats why it doesnt even make sense for him to be ar rat.  He really has nothing to lose.  Whats to stop him from shooting Dutuch taking the money after killing Arthur and running off.  His character is just so unlikeable that we immedaitely assume its him.  For all we know Molly told the truth and got blasted.  Really need to know what happened to Hosea before he dies with Abigail.

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