Horse Permadeath Online?

[Gallows]

23 minutes ago, RayD70 said:

And that solves the problem how, exactly?

 

Even bad sport in GTA Online accomplished nothing. Insurance was no deterrent  because it was ridiculously cheap and exploited (no money on that character? No insurance paid).

 

All of the kumbaya in the world won't stop the a-holes of the world. It's one mechanic that just. won't. work. R* would be incredibly naive to think otherwise. They'd lose their player base in weeks.

Griefers is one thing, cheating a completely different.

 

Cheaters should be permanently banned, and There’s really nothing more they can do about it.

 

Griefing however is subjective. You may find it griefing if I kill your horse as part of a shootout. I wouldn’t. Now if I were to camp you over and over and kill all your horses, that’s a problem that should be solved, not by limiting gameplay, but by adding it. Bounties can pile up even of the person has no money to pay, so I think the penalty should not be a reduction in money but a Bounty instead. Bounties should be account based and not lobby based, so even if you leave a lobby, you keep your Bounty. Having a Bounty on yout head should come with consequences.

 

Also revenge and nemesis mechanics could be in the game. If someone has griefed you (Per the games definition) you would have a grudge against that player and would be able to join him in whatever lobby he goes to and track him in the map, until he has paid off his Bounty. Also no one would get a Bounty for killing him or his horses as long as he has this “outcast” status.

 

I know with all the sh*t heads out there, we will see sh*t behaviour. I would like if rockstar gave players the ability to deal with and punish that behaviour.

 

Even among outlaws there could be honour and an honour system is another layer they could add. Honour would only be for player versus player interaction. Also account based like bounties, so you cannot escape it by leaving a session.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Gallows

[Jason]

Solving griefing, which is nigh on impossible no matter what you do, would only fix a small part of the problems you'd run into with perma death horses.

 

There's still AI fluke shots, horse pathing RNG, bugs, lag and a million other things.

[Gallows]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Solving griefing, which is nigh on impossible no matter what you do, would only fix a small part of the problems you'd run into with perma death horses.

 

There's still AI fluke shots, horse pathing RNG, bugs, lag and a million other things.

Sure sh*t happens. It’s this obsession with the hamster wheel persistent progression that has ruined gaming in many ways.

[Jason]

1 minute ago, Gallows said:

It’s this obsession with the hamster wheel persistent progression that has ruined gaming in many ways.

For some genres, yea, I would definitely argue it's had a bad influence on the shooter genre over the past decade or so, but an experience like what RDO will be? No, not really, it's pretty vital to these sort of games. Progression isn't an inherently bad thing, not at all.

[Gallows]

10 minutes ago, Jason said:

For some genres, yea, I would definitely argue it's had a bad influence on the shooter genre over the past decade or so, but an experience like what RDO will be? No, not really, it's pretty vital to these sort of games. Progression isn't an inherently bad thing, not at all.

I agree, progression is not a bad thing, but it’s the persistent untouchable progression which is the problem. People do not want setbacks. They just want to go up persistently no matter what happens. There are a lot of areas where the progression could be untouchable, like player level, camp upgrades, property, access to wagons and many more. I think because of the bonding, it would be good for players to lose something. The bonding may have to be faster in online to balance more frequent horse death.

 

But I would also like to see consequences for player death and of course for being an arse. Bounties should be account based, so if you leave a session, you keep your Bounty. An honour system for player interaction could also be very useful.

 

Freedom and consequences, risk and reward. I hate the modern gaming trend of freedom and reward. Winning when there is no losing is pointless.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Gallows

[Jason]

Yea that isn't a modern trend mate lol, not unless yer talking like 90's. Either way it's not a factually good or bad thing, it depends on your personal preference. If you like hardcore online experiences than more the merrier to you, but most do not and that isn't an issue.

[Gallows]

10 minutes ago, Jason said:

Yea that isn't a modern trend mate lol, not unless yer talking like 90's. Either way it's not a factually good or bad thing, it depends on your personal preference. If you like hardcore online experiences than more the merrier to you, but most do not and that isn't an issue.

Yeah it’s not a new thing, more like the Millenial care bear era. I would not call it hardcore really, but griefers can grief precisely because there are no consequences.

 

If bounties were account based that would ensure that people could not escape their behaviour. A trend that is sickening popular online, not only in gaming. Also an honour system that is account bound could make your actions matter, not only in the specific session, but permanently until you change your behaviour. 

 

But the real issue is that most people like to complain about griefers, while at the same time also love having the odd griefing session because there are no consequences. Freedom and consequences, risk and reward has been a part of the human condition forever. Gaming fails when it diverts from this because then even the people who would always control themselves become part of the problem.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Gallows

[Jason]

Permanent bounties would be hard to balance right, even honest players could rack them up high without really meaning to. Not impossible by any means though, it could work for sure - but IMO only if they didn't monetise currency like GTAO otherwise there would be a sh*tstorm.

 

It won't stop griefers long term though. People who wanna grief will grief, people who want to play honest but grief from time to time will create second accounts etc. It's why I said it's nigh on impossible to stop, if there was a magic formula they'd have thought of it by now, developers aren't clueless.

[Lonely-Martin]

29 minutes ago, Gallows said:

Griefers is one thing, cheating a completely different.

 

Cheaters should be permanently banned, and There’s really nothing more they can do about it.

 

Griefing however is subjective. You may find it griefing if I kill your horse as part of a shootout. I wouldn’t. Now if I were to camp you over and over and kill all your horses, that’s a problem that should be solved, not by limiting gameplay, but by adding it. Bounties can pile up even of the person has no money to pay, so I think the penalty should not be a reduction in money but a Bounty instead. Bounties should be account based and not lobby based, so even if you leave a lobby, you keep your Bounty. Having a Bounty on yout head should come with consequences.

 

Also revenge and nemesis mechanics could be in the game. If someone has griefed you (Per the games definition) you would have a grudge against that player and would be able to join him in whatever lobby he goes to and track him in the map, until he has paid off his Bounty. Also no one would get a Bounty for killing him or his horses as long as he has this “outcast” status.

 

I know with all the sh*t heads out there, we will see sh*t behaviour. I would like if rockstar gave players the ability to deal with and punish that behaviour.

 

Even among outlaws there could be honour and an honour system is another layer they could add. Honour would only be for player versus player interaction. Also account based like bounties, so you cannot escape it by leaving a session.

Hell-f*cking-no!

 

This modern trend of revenge and grief following players is very troubling as this is a huge issue with GTA:O and crews of griefers. Caused me issues IRL that I'll not discuss as many know I really get triggered by that incident.

 

Gaming has risk/reward. You die, you fail, you paid with time. Try and sell in a active public lobby there and see just how handicapped the seller is and how freely the glitches and glitchers come at ya, lol. This is to P2P? If so, it'll be the same.

 

You know R* actively appeal to all playstyles, including aggressive players, and dumped the PvE guys right in the middle. Seriously, look at what's happening in lobbies right now, god mode, teleporting, stalking, the works. Griefers learn very well to, put up a wall, they get a ladder.

 

This really does go too far.

[Gallows]

3 minutes ago, Jason said:

Permanent bounties would be hard to balance right, even honest players could rack them up high without really meaning to. Not impossible by any means though, it could work for sure - but IMO only if they didn't monetise currency like GTAO otherwise there would be a sh*tstorm.

 

It won't stop griefers long term though. People who wanna grief will grief, people who want to play honest but grief from time to time will create second accounts etc. It's why I said it's nigh on impossible to stop, if there was a magic formula they'd have thought of it by now, developers aren't clueless.

Yeah it’s a big problem that console bans aren’t a thing really. It should be - it’s not really hard to do.

[Jason]

Yea no one is ever going to get console banned for griefing and rightly so. Cheating, ie using hacks, yes, but not griefing.

[Gallows]

5 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Hell-f*cking-no!

 

This modern trend of revenge and grief following players is very troubling as this is a huge issue with GTA:O and crews of griefers. Caused me issues IRL that I'll not discuss as many know I really get triggered by that incident.

 

Gaming has risk/reward. You die, you fail, you paid with time. Try and sell in a active public lobby there and see just how handicapped the seller is and how freely the glitches and glitchers come at ya, lol. This is to P2P? If so, it'll be the same.

 

You know R* actively appeal to all playstyles, including aggressive players, and dumped the PvE guys right in the middle. Seriously, look at what's happening in lobbies right now, god mode, teleporting, stalking, the works. Griefers learn very well to, put up a wall, they get a ladder.

 

This really does go too far.

Revenge is a good thing. This whole “turn the other cheek BS” is what makes the bastards rule the world and gaming

 

But I think persistent bounties and an honour system for player interaction may be enough. If someone acts really poorly they will be a target no matter what session they join.

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Yea no one is ever going to get console banned for griefing and rightly so. Cheating, ie using hacks, yes, but not griefing.

Oh I agree. Griefing should be handled by giving players the means to handle it through game mechanics. For cheating I meant console bans should be the norm.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Gallows

[Lonely-Martin]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Yea no one is ever going to get console banned for griefing and rightly so. Cheating, ie using hacks, yes, but not griefing.

It'd be a mockery. If anyway similar to GTA here, the game appeals too much to aggressive play as much as anything. For Rockstar (Or the console companies) to ban players for playing as enabled, it would become a laughing stock.

[Lonely-Martin]

1 minute ago, Gallows said:

Revenge is a good thing. This whole “turn the other cheek BS” is what makes the bastards rule the world and gaming

 

But I think persistent bounties and an honour system for player interaction may be enough. If someone acts really poorly they will be a target no matter what session they join.

Basically GTA with the bounties then, as expected. (Though it does go after a game day there).

 

And no, revenge by following is not good. It breeds hate and resentment. The turn the other cheek goes the other way, people get harassed, many don't care. 'It's the game' 'that's what the game is about' No it ain't. If I've hidden my details and such to not be joined by people I don't wish to in an optional game, for the game to circumvent that I think would be something I'd seek legal advice over personally. I refuse to allow others to do this.

 

If that was in the T's and C's, I couldn't even create a character. It's wrong, and anyone in support of it I feel isn't looking to game. No more discussing for me, this is too much.

 

Enjoy the game man. You should try GTA, sounds like you'd love it. Much risk/reward, and follow away, players have thrived at doing that petty sh*t for near 5 years. A damn plague.

[Gallows]

8 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

Basically GTA with the bounties then, as expected. (Though it does go after a game day there).

 

And no, revenge by following is not good. It breeds hate and resentment. The turn the other cheek goes the other way, people get harassed, many don't care. 'It's the game' 'that's what the game is about' No it ain't. If I've hidden my details and such to not be joined by people I don't wish to in an optional game, for the game to circumvent that I think would be something I'd seek legal advice over personally. I refuse to allow others to do this.

 

If that was in the T's and C's, I couldn't even create a character. It's wrong, and anyone in support of it I feel isn't looking to game. No more discussing for me, this is too much.

 

Enjoy the game man. You should try GTA, sounds like you'd love it. Much risk/reward, and follow away, players have thrived at doing that petty sh*t for near 5 years. A damn plague.

I understand your point and griefing isn’t a big concern for me as long as it is done without cheats. Good game mechanics can let players deal with griefing in the game. At least persistent bounties and a PvP honour system would not allow griefers to just wipe their actions away even if the target does not get his revenge. I know people will have more than one account, but once they join a game on their grief account they will be marked as such and get the consequences right away. Of course there will still be assholes and even groups of assholes, but give the other players a good option to fight back and punish the behaviour.

 

One of the biggest issues with online games is that assholes can hide behind that screen. This even makes usually nice people become assholes once in a while.

 

Maybe it’s because I also enjoy exposing cheaters. Nothing more satisfying than exposing a cheater who thinks he can hide behind a screen, thinking his internet makes him anonymous. They become so small and pathetic once they suddenly see their face and name connected to what they do. People are responsible for their own actions and I have no sympathy for cheaters. They are not only assholes online, and any hate they get is deserved and part of the balance of life, where asses get burned eventually.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Gallows

[Lonely-Martin]

2 hours ago, Gallows said:

I understand your point and griefing isn’t a big concern for me as long as it is done without cheats. Good game mechanics can let players deal with griefing in the game. At least persistent bounties and a PvP honour system would not allow griefers to just wipe their actions away even if the target does not get his revenge. I know people will have more than one account, but once they join a game on their grief account they will be marked as such and get the consequences right away. Of course there will still be assholes and even groups of assholes, but give the other players a good option to fight back and punish the behaviour.

 

One of the biggest issues with online games is that assholes can hide behind that screen. This even makes usually nice people become assholes once in a while.

 

Maybe it’s because I also enjoy exposing cheaters. Nothing more satisfying than exposing a cheater who thinks he can hide behind a screen, thinking his internet makes him anonymous. They become so small and pathetic once they suddenly see their face and name connected to what they do. People are responsible for their own actions and I have no sympathy for cheaters. They are not only assholes online, and any hate they get is deserved and part of the balance of life, where asses get burned eventually.

I get it, not a fan of cheats too. But I feel you are too concerned by others and want to invade privacy.

 

The game should just be better. GTA allowed it far to easily. R* banned innocent victims of mod menu's and such too. I feel much of the explosion of cheating in GTA is all on R*.

 

Players can only do what a game let's them. Don't let them, lol. Granted, easier said than done. But they made so much money, I expect some to be spent to offer a safer experience. Just ban 'em. That simple. R* know what we do and who's guilty. sh*t, MrBoss isn't that hard to find, lol.

 

R* are incompetent here, so much. They wanted the numbers too much snd so long as it made them more money than ever expected, they didn't care. Many lost years of progress and R* refused to help.

 

And it makes much sense that grief doesn't bother you, lol. Sorry, I'm out.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Lonely-Martin

[Gallows]

6 hours ago, Lonely-Martin said:

I get it, not a fan of cheats too. But I feel you are too concerned by others and want to invade privacy.

 

The game should just be better. GTA allowed it far to easily. R* banned innocent victims of mod menu's and such too. I feel much of the explosion of cheating in GTA is all on R*.

 

Players can only do what a game let's them. Don't let them, lol. Granted, easier said than done. But they made so much money, I expect some to be spent to offer a safer experience. Just ban 'em. That simple. R* know what we do and who's guilty. sh*t, MrBoss isn't that hard to find, lol.

 

R* are incompetent here, so much. They wanted the numbers too much snd so long as it made them more money than ever expected, they didn't care. Many lost years of progress and R* refused to help.

 

And it makes much sense that grief doesn't bother you, lol. Sorry, I'm out.

I agree that R* dropped the ball on GTA cheats, no doubt about it. Can only hope they do better with RDO.

 

The main reason I’m not that bothered with griefers is that I mostly play with people I know and people who are lame will be kicked out of the community. Only way to play this type of game to be honest. When playing on public games I just try to get even, get my revenge and enjoy the gameplay that adds. If I can’t be arsed I find another game. Are you in the US or EU?

[Lonely-Martin]

48 minutes ago, Gallows said:

I agree that R* dropped the ball on GTA cheats, no doubt about it. Can only hope they do better with RDO.

 

The main reason I’m not that bothered with griefers is that I mostly play with people I know and people who are lame will be kicked out of the community. Only way to play this type of game to be honest. When playing on public games I just try to get even, get my revenge and enjoy the gameplay that adds. If I can’t be arsed I find another game. Are you in the US or EU?

I'm UK myself, can't lie, curious cat I am, lol. Why? (I'm not looking to be defensive mind, I know I can be but genuinely curious is all).

 

I do understand your point about kicking the griefers, but that in itself grew into a issue for me in GTA too. 

 

Really is just so much to consider with this game about to expand online for a player that got a fair amount of crap from the last. I've been buying up old game like a harder in preparation for what's to come in case it is just too much. (Got some tips on open world games with a moral system too, just need to see how combat focused some are as I know that's no strength, otherwise, Football Manager is where I'll end up, or The Sims if they make a good one, lol).

 

If we get that PvE lobby, it'd be like realising a dream at this point. Now I'm out of that GTA trap, I don't want to return, lol.

 

(I very much appreciate the fair response, yesterday was a bad day as I'd done a night shift and got called in early morning too, lol. Apologies for being a bit frosty. I'm just not a revenge player really, very passive).

Edited November 24, 2018 by Lonely-Martin

[Gallows]

34 minutes ago, Lonely-Martin said:

I'm UK myself, can't lie, curious cat I am, lol. Why? (I'm not looking to be defensive mind, I know I can be but genuinely curious is all).

 

I do understand your point about kicking the griefers, but that in itself grew into a issue for me in GTA too. 

 

Really is just so much to consider with this game about to expand online for a player that got a fair amount of crap from the last. I've been buying up old game like a harder in preparation for what's to come in case it is just too much. (Got some tips on open world games with a moral system too, just need to see how combat focused some are as I know that's no strength, otherwise, Football Manager is where I'll end up, or The Sims if they make a good one, lol).

 

If we get that PvE lobby, it'd be like realising a dream at this point. Now I'm out of that GTA trap, I don't want to return, lol.

 

(I very much appreciate the fair response, yesterday was a bad day as I'd done a night shift and got called in early morning too, lol. Apologies for being a bit frosty. I'm just not a revenge player really, very passive).

No worries, the human condition does not always allow us to be perfect; we can only try

 

I but asked, because maybe you’d like to join a community of people who like a more fair and fun gameplay style; even when we kill each other and engage in revenge killings. Respect even among rivals.

The community is not up and running yet, but working on it. I believe PvP can be a lot of fun, but it is more fun if people respect a code of honour.

 

But even on PvE servers I guess competitive games are a thing, while open world PvP is not. It may be a good option to play PvE when doing public games and then only play PvP lobbies with people of similar conviction, honour and sense of fairness.

[Jason]

You can't really deter griefing with game mechanics. The only real way is to remove their ability to kill people if they kill to many people or something, which makes no sense in a PvP environment. A bounty system could easily be exploited around. Rack up big bounties, have friends kill you, etc. Kill someones horse once, get a bounty and let them kill you, ezpz. It can't really work.

 

That's not to mention that people will play without care, in a game with millions of players you're gonna run into plenty of people who play purely to grief and they aint gonna give a sh*t about racking up bounties lol.

 

The only real way to deter griefing (cause outright stopping it is impossible) is to discourage attacking players first by putting them at a disadvantage, which I believe FO76 tries by having players deal less damage to other players until they fire back but that isn't gonna work in RDO which will have low TTK times.

[Lonely-Martin]

37 minutes ago, Gallows said:

No worries, the human condition does not always allow us to be perfect; we can only try

 

I but asked, because maybe you’d like to join a community of people who like a more fair and fun gameplay style; even when we kill each other and engage in revenge killings. Respect even among rivals.

The community is not up and running yet, but working on it. I believe PvP can be a lot of fun, but it is more fun if people respect a code of honour.

 

But even on PvE servers I guess competitive games are a thing, while open world PvP is not. It may be a good option to play PvE when doing public games and then only play PvP lobbies with people of similar conviction, honour and sense of fairness.

Greatly appreciate the offer but at present life is having some fun and I'm unable to really put more effort into my gaming but I shall keep this in mind as joining good respectful players, especially from here as I feel we (in general) have more regard for the games is ideal for me too. I have joined and helped a good few in GTA with challenges like the CMM. Easily my most rewarding gaming and it was my 1st online game proper.

 

I shall drop you a PM if I find myself embracing RDRO though if cool? Thanks for the kind offer as I fully agree, with good players, the gaming thrives so much more IMO.

[Dijj]

On 11/20/2018 at 5:23 PM, Blasterman4EVER said:

I hope that if someone kills themselves intentionally in online, it is also permadeath.

This guys got the right idea.

[Gallows]

2 hours ago, Dijj said:

This guys got the right idea.

What would be the purpose with permadeath when you intentionally kill yourself? Bounty stays after death.

 

The money you lose when dying should be lootable from your corpse. Suicide could have twice the penalty.

[Dijj]

43 minutes ago, Gallows said:

What would be the purpose with permadeath when you intentionally kill yourself? Bounty stays after death.

 

The money you lose when dying should be lootable from your corpse. Suicide could have twice the penalty.

I think the permadeath should affect the character, the console, and the person playing. 

[Gallows]

6 minutes ago, Dijj said:

I think the permadeath should affect the character, the console, and the person playing. 

Permadeath would means your character is gone and you create a new one. That’s permanent death. Is that what you want? Or do you just mean death penalties?

Edited November 25, 2018 by Gallows

[Lonely-Martin]

10 minutes ago, Dijj said:

I think the permadeath should affect the character, the console, and the person playing. 

That'll see many just simply lose any respect for the game entirely.

 

After a few times of restarting and setting up, to keep doing that is just a fools errand, IMO.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Lonely-Martin
Spelling.

[Jason]

Yea that's quite clearly a troll.

[Jabalous]

Three possible solutions:

 

1. Horses take less damage from other player's shots to the point that it feels really difficult and frustrating to kill them. What about dynamite? You're right, it'd be difficult to find cohesion between playability and realism, so one of them will have to be sacrificed

 

2. Horses respawn if killed by other players, but they don't if they were killed by AI or the owner like in the story mode. This is the best option. Realism and playability come together.

 

3. Horses don't resapwn regardless of how they were killed. 

 

Do player-owned cars respawn in GTA Online if another player destroyed it? If so, what're the consequences? If something works there, Rockstar would probably implement the same system again, but I don't know about how it works in GTA Online. 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Jabalous

[Gallows]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Yea that's quite clearly a troll.

Yep that’s clear as day, but Trolls feed of frustration and not their own inadequacy or irrelevance.

[CrimsonFolo]

15 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

Three possible solutions:

 

1. Horses take less damage from other player's shots to the point that it feels really difficult and frustrating to kill them. What about dynamite? You're right, it'd be difficult to find cohesion between playability and realism, so one of them will have to be sacrificed

 

2. Horses respawn if killed by other players, but they don't if they were killed by AI or the owner like in the story mode. This is the best option. Realism and playability come together.

 

3. Horses don't resapwn regardless of how they were killed. 

 

Do player-owned cars respawn in GTA Online if another player destroyed it? If so, what're the consequences? If something works there, Rockstar would probably implement the same system again, but I don't know about how it works in GTA Online. 

 

How it works in GTA Online is that you pay the insurance cost of the car (usually around 1k to 9k or more depending on how expensive car is) and then your car can respawn. It kinda works to an extent there but it doesn't really fit in RDR Online nor do i think that it would be a great system.

 

Option 2 that you have listed seems like a decent one but would still encourage throwaway horses