Horse Permadeath Online?

[ALifeOfMisery]

26 minutes ago, Gallows said:

As I said shooting another players horse is not an exploit. Of course other exploits will exist until fixed.

 

Safe space gaming was meant as a negative. It has made gaming very dull. Risk/reward is a good mechanic. Today it’s just reward/REWARD.

I agree, apologies for not making that clear, killing a players horse isn't an exploit. 

 

I don't think anyone is naïve enough to think there won't be players who make it their sole goal to go around killing as many player owned horses as possible just to be an ar*ehole. I'd rather not have to deal with those kinds of players.

 

As for the whole risk/reward thing. I get it, honestly, I do. I just don't play games for risk and reward, my real life has more than enough risk and reward on a daily basis. I play games to have fun, relax and escape. In GTAO I didn't find it fun to have 10 hours of collecting crates wiped out, so I removed the possibility.

 

I wouldn't find having my favourite horse permanently killed fun in RDO either, so hopefully the PvE lobbies that are rumoured actually exist.

[Callahan44]

No. I guess there will be really expensive horses that need you to grind for hours,would be a shame if you have to worry about using them. 

It could work like a mixture of insurance and impounded vehicle. So you have to go to 1 specific spot like a horsedoctor and pay a bit of money.

[Gallows]

I am not saying you should lose the horse completely, but I suggest that your horse does die and you have to get a new one. Lets say you buy horses from the stable. Once you have bought a horse, you can always add one of those horses to your stable if you haven’t already. If your horse dies, it will die, but you can get a new one free of charge or a low price once you have bought access to it.

 

Same with guns. You do not buy guns as such, but rather pay to unlock them for purchase at the gunsmith. That means if you die, you lose your guns, but not your access to them. Customization could be tied to your unlock, so that any customization you have unlocked can be added to guns of that type at the gunsmith for free.

 

This means there is a perpetual cycle that keeps the economy working, gives a reason for earning money forever.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Gallows

[KingBen]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:09 PM, djb204 said:

Maybe we can’t kill each other’s horses Online?

 

Maybe horses buck us off when they are shot from another player and they flee?

 

Maybe horses don’t take any damage from other players?

 

OR

 

Maybe like GTA Online, the player who killed your horse gets deducted the amount of money the horse was worth? That money would then be deposited into the horse owner’s pocket so that they could purchase the same horse with upgrades again?

 

Being deducted money for killing another players horse would make players think twice about killing another players horse. That might minimize griefing.

 

They definitely won’t make us buy the horse again and upgrade it even if it’s with the other players money. No chance that happens.

 

I think you’re on the right track though. I think if a player kills your horse they will lose a certain amount of money (like insurance in GTAO) but not the full amount of the horse. Then your horse will likely either spawn at a stable or one of your owned properties. 

[Fatsanchez]

IMO the fact that RDR2 will have PVE lobbies is another hint as to horse permadeath and possibly other 'hardcore' mechanics. Horses in RDR2 are something you should worry about and take care of, and I think it will remain like this online.

I believe that, if they die, bought horses will be available for free at stables again, with a bonding penalty (I'm fully expecting it to go back to lvl1). Stolen horses will be lost.

 

I dont believe weapons can be lost tho.

[ivarblaauw]

Just make it that players can't harm each others' horses. Hit them which would buck the rider off, perhaps. But not kill. 

[ALifeOfMisery]

2 hours ago, Gallows said:

This means there is a perpetual cycle that keeps the economy working, gives a reason for earning money forever.

There is no economy though. Not in a real sense anyway.

 

The money we earn in game doesn't come from anywhere and the money we spend doesn't go anywhere. It just credits and debits our account, appearing and disappearing.

 

When we spend money at the gunsmith, they don't use that money to replenish stock, spend some at the saloon and give their wife some for groceries. The money trickling down and transferring throughout the economy. 

 

If you get your bought horses back for free when they die and you get your guns, complete with customisation back for free after dying, what you've described is nothing more than a dev adding inconvenience and time drain into the game. Which by the way, I wouldn't put past R*. But it doesn't add realism and doesn't help to create a working economy (which I can't see R* having any intention of attempting anyway).

Edited November 20, 2018 by ALifeOfMisery

[djb204]

5 minutes ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

There is no economy though. Not in a real sense anyway.

 

The money we earn in game doesn't come from anywhere and the money we spend doesn't go anywhere. It just credits and debits our account, appearing and disappearing.

 

When we spend money at the gunsmith, they don't use that money to replenish stock, spend some at the saloon and give their wife some for groceries. The money trickling down and transferring throughout the economy. 

 

If you get your bought horses back for free when they die and you get your guns, complete with customisation back for free after dying, what you've described is nothing more than a dev adding inconvenience and time drain into the game. Which by the way, I wouldn't put past R*. But it doesn't add realism and doesn't help to create a working economy (which I can't see R* having any intention of attempting anyway).

It’s too easy to die (especially in a multiplayer environment) and too time consuming to obtain currency for in game content horses & guns). I understand what you want and why you want it, but I also understand why it wouldn’t be a good idea. If we played for many hours just to have enough for a good horse and good guns, then we get shot in the head as we exit the gunsmith, all those hours of playing, grinding would have been for nothing if we now have to start all over. Even accidentally falling down a steep hill could undo all our hard work.

[ALifeOfMisery]

@djb204^ think you might have quoted the wrong guy. I've been arguing against the likelihood of horse permadeath, losing weapons etc. It doesn't make sense in a perpetual online game.

 

I do, however agree with your post.

Edited November 20, 2018 by ALifeOfMisery

[KingBen]

1 hour ago, Fatsanchez said:

IMO the fact that RDR2 will have PVE lobbies is another hint as to horse permadeath and possibly other 'hardcore' mechanics. Horses in RDR2 are something you should worry about and take care of, and I think it will remain like this online.

I believe that, if they die, bought horses will be available for free at stables again, with a bonding penalty (I'm fully expecting it to go back to lvl1). Stolen horses will be lost.

 

I dont believe weapons can be lost tho.

If another player kills your horse there’s zero chance it would go back to lvl1 at the stable. That would be a griefing nightmare. 

 

 

I could see a scenario where your horse goes back to lvl1 if you ride it off a cliff or kill it yourself. But there’s not even a 1% chance it’s going back to lvl1 if another player kills your horse.

Edited November 20, 2018 by KingBen

[Jason]

If I had to guess they'll be killable but will respawn after a certain amount of time.

 

Things like permadeath for horses and losing guns is way too griefable and given that building your stable of horses and weapon loadout (plus customisation) is gonna be an integral part to RDO's progression, losing that stuff to a griefer or even just a stray bullet would just make people turn the game off.

[KingBen]

Just now, Jason said:

If I had to guess they'll be killable but will respawn after a certain amount of time.

 

Things like permadeath for horses and losing guns is way too griefable and given that building your stable of horses and weapon loadout (plus customisation) is gonna be an integral part to RDO's progression, losing that stuff to a griefer or even just a stray bullet would just make people turn the game off.

 

Exactly. Well said.

 

They want to attract players to RDR Online, not drive them away. If you spent time leveling up your horse and customizing it only for some douche bag to snipe it in the head and send you back to lvl1 then people would just turn the game off.

[Gallows]

2 hours ago, ALifeOfMisery said:

There is no economy though. Not in a real sense anyway.

 

The money we earn in game doesn't come from anywhere and the money we spend doesn't go anywhere. It just credits and debits our account, appearing and disappearing.

 

When we spend money at the gunsmith, they don't use that money to replenish stock, spend some at the saloon and give their wife some for groceries. The money trickling down and transferring throughout the economy. 

 

If you get your bought horses back for free when they die and you get your guns, complete with customisation back for free after dying, what you've described is nothing more than a dev adding inconvenience and time drain into the game. Which by the way, I wouldn't put past R*. But it doesn't add realism and doesn't help to create a working economy (which I can't see R* having any intention of attempting anyway).

Well I don’t mean for free. You should pay for the guns, the normal price for standard versions. The horse should be cheaper perhaps working like the GTA insurance.

 

I know there is no real economy, but the illusion of one would be nice. I’m sure we can buy ammo and such.

2 hours ago, KingBen said:

 

Exactly. Well said.

 

They want to attract players to RDR Online, not drive them away. If you spent time leveling up your horse and customizing it only for some douche bag to snipe it in the head and send you back to lvl1 then people would just turn the game off.

Not all players. I’d like to see horse death and player death have real consequences. I didn’t like the way the horse in RDR1 had no soul, you could shoot it yourself if you wanted and not worry about it. I’d like players to have a reason to get off their horse and make it flee. I know it sucks dying and losing stuff, but it also sucks when death is nothing but a wait to respawn in a game like this.

 

I hear people worry that there are assholes out there who will just kill them and their horse and steal their money.. why would anyone worry about that in a game about outlaws? I’d like if you could loot a percentage of peoples money when you kill them. This is a game about outlaws and the dangerous life of the West. It sounds like some people don’t like the outlaw part and want the West to be neither Wild nor dangerous.

 

When you can lose what you have built, it actually means something instead of just being a journey of hamsterwheeling towards... more that everyone gets, so it’s relatively without value.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Gallows

[KingBen]

3 hours ago, Gallows said:

Well I don’t mean for free. You should pay for the guns, the normal price for standard versions. The horse should be cheaper perhaps working like the GTA insurance.

 

I know there is no real economy, but the illusion of one would be nice. I’m sure we can buy ammo and such.

Not all players. I’d like to see horse death and player death have real consequences. I didn’t like the way the horse in RDR1 had no soul, you could shoot it yourself if you wanted and not worry about it. I’d like players to have a reason to get off their horse and make it flee. I know it sucks dying and losing stuff, but it also sucks when death is nothing but a wait to respawn in a game like this.

 

I hear people worry that there are assholes out there who will just kill them and their horse and steal their money.. why would anyone worry about that in a game about outlaws? I’d like if you could loot a percentage of peoples money when you kill them. This is a game about outlaws and the dangerous life of the West. It sounds like some people don’t like the outlaw part and want the West to be neither Wild nor dangerous.

 

When you can lose what you have built, it actually means something instead of just being a journey of hamsterwheeling towards... more that everyone gets, so it’s relatively without value.

 

I get what you’re saying and I respect your opinion. I’m just saying there’s no way it’s going to happen. If a player kills your horse it’s going to respawn back at your stable/property at the exact lvl it was when it died. Like I said above, Rockstar doesn’t want to lose players. They want to gain players. 

[CrimsonFolo]

If your horse perma dies, that would suck ass. Imagine that in GTA, a guy decides to blow up your adder for example and there goes 1 million dollars. All it would take in this game is a few bullets and all your progress on your horse is gone.

 

You can't really relax then in the online, "oh sh*t someone is heading my way, i don't want them to kill my horse, let me shoot him first instead" or if someone blasts your horse in the middle of nowhere, you're going to have to find and break a new horse or run your ass all the way to a stable. 

 

If this system somehow happens, I'll probably have one horse for PvE lobby and the rest as throwaway horses for PvP lobbies.

[roggek]

Why don't use the same mechanics as in GTAO?

 

If you destroy another players car, you get closer and closer to bad sports lobby...

I'm sure this is somehow implemented in RDRO too...

 

So I'm in for horse permadeath, since it's basically the same outcome if my horse gets killed in RDRO, as  if I crash a car in GTAO, in either ways, I have to steal a new one...

[Fatsanchez]

6 hours ago, KingBen said:

If another player kills your horse there’s zero chance it would go back to lvl1 at the stable. That would be a griefing nightmare. 

 

 

I could see a scenario where your horse goes back to lvl1 if you ride it off a cliff or kill it yourself. But there’s not even a 1% chance it’s going back to lvl1 if another player kills your horse.

You know what PVE means right?

[KingBen]

1 hour ago, Fatsanchez said:

You know what PVE means right?

 

Yes of course. Player vs Environment.

 

What’s your point?

[Gallows]

3 hours ago, The FoolYT said:

If your horse perma dies, that would suck ass. Imagine that in GTA, a guy decides to blow up your adder for example and there goes 1 million dollars. All it would take in this game is a few bullets and all your progress on your horse is gone.

 

You can't really relax then in the online, "oh sh*t someone is heading my way, i don't want them to kill my horse, let me shoot him first instead" or if someone blasts your horse in the middle of nowhere, you're going to have to find and break a new horse or run your ass all the way to a stable. 

 

If this system somehow happens, I'll probably have one horse for PvE lobby and the rest as throwaway horses for PvP lobbies.

Your description of being fearful of combat is precisely the reason to add real consequences to the game. The horse should die, your bonding gone, but you should be able to re-purchase it at a discount. That way the game of bonding with horses is a permanent part of the game. They are going to make PvE lobbies for people who do like it. I think that’s a reason PvP will have more consequences than GTAO. It would be good for the game of people are wary of combat and not just engaging others because they cannot lose anything.

[Blasterman4EVER]

I hope that if someone kills themselves intentionally in online, it is also permadeath.

[Jason]

12 minutes ago, Gallows said:

Your description of being fearful of combat is precisely the reason to add real consequences to the game. The horse should die, your bonding gone, but you should be able to re-purchase it at a discount. That way the game of bonding with horses is a permanent part of the game. They are going to make PvE lobbies for people who do like it. I think that’s a reason PvP will have more consequences than GTAO. It would be good for the game of people are wary of combat and not just engaging others because they cannot lose anything.

What you propose will basically undo everything they try to do with horses in the game, which is make them characters.

 

If your horse can die to a stray bullet in a PvE lobby or a griefer in a PvP lobby then no one is gonna roll with a purchased horse or waste their time taming one, they're gonna steal every horse they use and flog it till it dies. No point customising them cause it's a waste of money, no point caring about naming or bonding it cause it could die easily.

 

Everyone will be so be terrified of their horses dying so they won't bother with putting effort into that part of the game. Consequence works in single player but in the highly unpredictable world of online where things like lag can kill you it only works if players sign up to it, like say in an hardcore league in an ARPG. It doesn't work in a game like like RDO unless they have separate hardcore servers and progression.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Jason

[Gallows]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

What you propose will basically undo everything they try to do with horses in the game, which is make them characters.

 

If you horse can die to a stray bullet in a PvE lobby or a griefer in a PvP lobby then no one is gonna roll with a purchased horse or waste their time taming one, they're gonna steal every horse they use and flog it till it dies. No point customising them cause it's a waste of money, no point caring about naming or bonding it cause it could die easily.

 

Everyone will be so be terrified of their horses dying so they won't bother with putting effort into that part of the game. Consequence works in single player but in the highly unpredictable world of online where things like lag can kill you it only works if players sign up to it, like say in an hardcore league in an ARPG.

Don’t think you understand. You can customize it, upgrade it etc. You will keep all those upgrades when you buy it at a great discount again. Not the bonding though. And bonding is a great advantage and happens automatically. Horses should not die on PvE servers You can revive horses too, so that’s still a thing.

[Jason]

I completely understand, and the risk of them dying and losing things like bonding and having to repurchase them means people won't bother. Horse reviver won't fix everything, a bullet to the head kills a horse in-game. They could make it survive a bullet and then you need to revive it but then you'd have to revive it before you your self were killed, which given that you've just been thrown off your horse would be difficult.

 

It simply will not work for the type of experience RDO will most likely be.

[Lonely-Martin]

15 minutes ago, Jason said:

What you propose will basically undo everything they try to do with horses in the game, which is make them characters.

 

If your horse can die to a stray bullet in a PvE lobby or a griefer in a PvP lobby then no one is gonna roll with a purchased horse or waste their time taming one, they're gonna steal every horse they use and flog it till it dies. No point customising them cause it's a waste of money, no point caring about naming or bonding it cause it could die easily.

 

Everyone will be so be terrified of their horses dying so they won't bother with putting effort into that part of the game. Consequence works in single player but in the highly unpredictable world of online where things like lag can kill you it only works if players sign up to it, like say in an hardcore league in an ARPG. It doesn't work in a game like like RDO unless they have separate hardcore servers and progression.

I'd just walk, lol. Literally, or quit.

 

Just sounds like a new level of nickel and diming and griefer friendly bolocks after seeing what GTA:O did with insurance fees and crap.

 

If a player that just bought a card and then a horse steps outside a stable and a spawn killing pussy is keen, how many more cards is that customer likely to buy next weekend, lol. At least on GTA when it happens, we don't lose out on the real cash investment we made. (Not that I bought a single one, but they are key for R* and dictate the $ per hour/job so must be considered in any marketing and gameplay additions. Uugh).

 

Can't work. Not without so much else being addressed too. If this to be p2p also? If so, definitely not!

Edited November 21, 2018 by Lonely-Martin

[Jason]

That's actually a great shout, permadeath for things like horses that in anyway cost you something would scream nickel and diming which is not something Rockstar need at launch, not after the criticisms of GTAO in recent years.

[Gallows]

They will not sell horses for real money, but instead access to buying horses for in game money. That means when your horse dies you lose nothing you bought with real money, because you keep your access to buy that horse for ingame money 

 

They may also allow you to buy horse discounts instead, meaning you get 50% on horses you buy special access to. This means actually that the more your horse dies, the more you get from the purchase you made with real money

Edited November 21, 2018 by Gallows

[IamCourtney]

As someone who plans to play in PvP sessions, horse permadeath would mean that horses would become disposable for me. I would load my stable slots up with cheap, easily acquirable mounts (Morgans, Kentucky Saddlers, Tennessee Walkers etc.) and try to keep them alive and bond as much as possible but ultimately accept that any given one of them is living on borrowed time and not be too bothered by their inevitable loss. Maxing out a high quality steed just wouldn't be worth the time, effort and frustration.

[Gallows]

11 minutes ago, IamCourtney said:

As someone who plans to play in PvP sessions, horse permadeath would mean that horses would become disposable for me. I would load my stable slots up with cheap, easily acquirable mounts (Morgans, Kentucky Saddlers, Tennessee Walkers etc.) and try to keep them alive and bond as much as possible but ultimately accept that any given one of them is living on borrowed time and not be too bothered by their inevitable loss. Maxing out a high quality steed just wouldn't be worth the time, effort and frustration.

Of course it would, because otherwise you’d be at a permanent disadvantage against players who run this risk. But yours is still a valid playstyle and a reason for using the cheaper horses sometimes. Just another good argument for horse death.

 

I think they will sell horse access or discount for real money instead of actual horses. That way the more times the horse you bought access to dies the more valuable your purchase becomes.

 

Bonding will also be very valuable for horse control in PvP. You may want to not take your horse into every gunfight and make it flee, creating better and more gameplay options. Horses asked to flee could become invulnerable until you get within a certain range of your horse.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Gallows

[Lonely-Martin]

14 minutes ago, Gallows said:

They will not sell horses for real money, but instead access to buying horses for in game money. That means when your horse dies you lose nothing you bought with real money, because you keep your access to buy that horse for ingame money 

All we know is they intend microtransactions. Could be cards again, could do like GT Sport too.

 

I mean, we won't need $8m for £60 here (well, maybe one day, lol), but buying 10k-100k as a top tier card for top tier prices like that does sound weird on paper, IMHO. So I feel R* could change things a little possibly. But just speculating as I don't know anything of course.

 

(GT Sport sells it's cars individually at 2-3 pounds each, though a couple of the top priced 20m cars aren't and can only be bought via in-game earnings).

 

Don't get me wrong, the kind of game you paint sounds like the dream. But after 5 years of increasing nonsense from players and R* logic at times, I'm just cautious is all. If they go to private servers and show to reduce much and fix plenty promptly, and balance it all up better from the ground up. One day.

 

We'd waste a lot of time to griefers too I mean. And if the game is a grind like GTA. Time is money, as they say. (Don't like that in gaming either, lol. Should be fun, not too much a chore).

Edited November 21, 2018 by Lonely-Martin
Wording, pressed wrong button and posted early, oops.

[Lonely-Martin]

9 minutes ago, Gallows said:

I think they will sell horse access or discount for real money instead of actual horses. That way the more times the horse you bought access to dies the more valuable your purchase becomes.

They already do offer horses and guns for cash directly in a way, missions too. The pre order and ultimate editions. Paid extra cash and those items are discounted to zero. Free replacements with bonding lost too.

 

(Sorry, conversation moved on since).