RED DEAD REDEMPTION 2 - "Chronological" Mission Order

[BleddynRPG]

6 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Before AAR I'll leave my horse at the hitching post by the stables near where Thomas Downes is asking for donations, which is actually the default location for your horse during this mission

 

Playing for the first time I chose PSVS and instinctively whistled for the horse. Then I tied it by the shop. Now I know that you can tie it by the stable.

 

That's where the first day suits me best: a quick hunt by the river, a ride with Uncle and the girls, and a fight with Tommy in the late afternoon. Dutch also has time to talk to Trelawny and show up at Valentine.

[luckycanadian95]

14 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Playing for the first time I chose PSVS and instinctively whistled for the horse. Then I tied it by the shop. Now I know that you can tie it by the stable.

Do you whistle for your horse to avoid being stranded in Valentine after PSVS? The reason why Arthur needs to borrow a horse in the first place is that he left his own back at camp and drove into town by wagon, so I don't think it makes sense to do that unfortunately.

  

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

The next day after rescuing Swanson I went to Valentine and after the fight I went to wash up and the employee did not suggest a bath. If I do PSVS and after that AAR the employee remembers us and after an exchange of words suggests a bath.

Ahh I see what you mean now. Yeah he always suggests a bath the next time you visit the hotel after PSVS.

 

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

BTW, The conversation with Downes goes the same regardless of the chosen option. So in my opinion it's not really important to interact with him from a plot perspective at that particular moment. The lack of interaction with him in PSVS shows that Arthur doesn't pay attention to people like that.

In my opinion the creators mixed up too much to somehow make it possible to do missions in different configurations.

To be honest I think the lack of interaction shows that Downes isn't supposed to be there 

 

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

We know how to talk to NPCs from Colter. And the game doesn't have one tutorial, in The Sheep and the Goats it teaches us how to buy weapons.

The tutorial message we get from Colter is actually about interacting with gang members specifically, whereas the tutorial message from Within Sin is about interacting with miscellaneous people in the open world.

• The Aftermath of Genesis: "Speak to your companions by holding [_] to focus on them and using the interaction options."
• Without Sin: "You can speak to other people in the world by holding [_] to focus on them when nearby."

I think it's definitely valid to question if tutorial messages are worth using as evidence, but if you put any stock into them WS should probably go before PSVS 

 

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I don't know what the creators' original intention was, but ultimately the game suggests you go talk to Uncle. Conversations with the girls also show us that ultimately choosing his mission was natural. The game teaches us what good deeds give us, we even have a message that returning the horse will increase our honor.

In terms of a chronological order though we can't always rely on which mission feels most natural to play next. Case in point the way Hosea makes it super difficult to avoid starting Exit once it unlocks, with how he shouts "Hey Arthur!" whenever you try to leave camp, but it doesn't make sense to play his mission until later.

 

For me personally it never feels right to start the chapter with Uncle's mission because of all the small hiccups or problems that we've noticed over the years:

• Original voice lines are dubbed over
• You get stranded in Valentine
• Javier and the boys are nowhere to be seen
• Initial leads from Hosea are ignored
• You miss a lot of dialogue at the general store
• Thomas Downes appears to be bugged

It gives you the main tutorial for the honour system, which makes sense to get relatively early, but I don't see why that needs to be our first tutorial of the chapter. The strongest evidence in favor of doing PSVS right away is probably the dialogue from the girls at camp, since they mention wanting to get out for a bit which is clearly setting up the trip to Valentine. But those lines could also work as foreshadowing for the mission if done later, and interestingly when you first greet Mary-Beth she says they've been "cooped up for days" whereas during the mission itself she says "cooped up for two weeks".

 

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I wonder if there's any way to get Swanson to camp just before Sean's party.

I'd have to test this again but from what I remember it doesn't work because getting Swanson on the way back to camp from Blackwater just cancels out Sean's party

Edited March 26 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

10 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

For me personally it never feels right to start the chapter with Uncle's mission because of all the small hiccups or problems that we've noticed over the years

 

I've read those 200+ pages and they're actually good arguments, but somehow leaving the uncle and bored girls in the camp doesn't add up for me. Maybe the creators changed the concept and made a starter with PSVS, which they didn't plan before. I played AAR directly after and before WS, without PSVS, and somehow something was missing. The argument with the horse can be refuted by saying that PSVS only makes sense after the hunt with Hosea... The information from Hosea doesn't contain any specifics - the guys are in town, Swansan found something, generally nothing urgent. And Dutch, if we talk to him a few times, I think we have to leave the camp and go back, Arthur will tell Dutch that he'll see what's up with the guys. And at first he only wants to take Uncle, the girls invited themselves.

 

Besides, the idea of sending a player through a quarter of the map in the first mission for urgent action seems strange to me.

[luckycanadian95]

9 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

The argument with the horse can be refuted by saying that PSVS only makes sense after the hunt with Hosea...

What do you mean by refuted? I think it supports the argument that PSVS might take place after the hunting trip so that we can retrieve our horse from the stables.

 

9 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

The information from Hosea doesn't contain any specifics - the guys are in town, Swansan found something, generally nothing urgent. And Dutch, if we talk to him a few times, I think we have to leave the camp and go back, Arthur will tell Dutch that he'll see what's up with the guys. And at first he only wants to take Uncle, the girls invited themselves.

Yeah true, you could headcanon that Arthur wants to go into town with Uncle to check on the boys, and then plans change a bit once the girls invite themselves.

 

9 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Besides, the idea of sending a player through a quarter of the map in the first mission for urgent action seems strange to me.

I kind of agree with this. But don't you run into a similar issue when you start the chapter with PSVS? You would presumably do AAR on the same day since part of the reason for going into Valentine in the first place was likely for Arthur to check on the boys. So you would still end up getting sent to Blackwater on day one. If anything this might be a reason to have WS as your first mission.

 

But either way the trip to Blackwater is meant to happen very early in the chapter, so this might be a nonissue.

 

9 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I've read those 200+ pages and they're actually good arguments, but somehow leaving the uncle and bored girls in the camp doesn't add up for me. Maybe the creators changed the concept and made a starter with PSVS, which they didn't plan before. I played AAR directly after and before WS, without PSVS, and somehow something was missing.

I actually get the same feeling that you're describing but only when I do PSVS before those other missions. It just ends up seeming empty and out of place in my opinion. But you make good points, and really we should go with the order that feels right to us at the end of the day.

[BleddynRPG]

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

What do you mean by refuted? I think it supports the argument that PSVS might take place after the hunting trip so that we can retrieve our horse from the stables.

 

I mean, you have to go hunting in order to go with Uncle to Valentine. And you have to do it so that another mission doesn't unlock the letter from Mary. Question, if I only have one horse and it stayed in the camp, does that horse magically appear in the stable?

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

kind of agree with this. But don't you run into a similar issue when you start the chapter with PSVS?

Hunting, riding with Uncle and the girls, fighting with Tommy, then bathing, fighting two O'Driscolls and robbing the guy they were beating (Bandite 1), then Jim Boy, staying at the hotel and in the morning the first bounty mission, then horseback riding towards Flatneck Station and the dinosaur lady, mexican sharpshooter, first treasure map and Swanson. Riding at night and preparing ammo at the trapper's, then reaching the guys in the morning and rescuing Sean (you can kill two bounty hunters with a knife which can unlock weapon expert 2). Then back to camp, second treasure map and gold digger, and at 8pm Sean's party.

 

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

But either way the trip to Blackwater is meant to happen very early in the chapter, so this might be a nonissue.

Funny thing, first time playing I didn't notice this mission in Blackwater, because it appears after some time.

 

 

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

So you would still end up getting sent to Blackwater on day one. If anything this might be a reason to have WS as your first mission.

For me, the problem here is the disappearing cart. That bothers me more than the disappearing black stallion.

 

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

But you make good points, and really we should go with the order that feels right to us at the end of the day.

I agree. But it's nice to talk about it with other fans.

 

BTW, I wonder what would fit after Sean's party. Dutch didn't approach me about Strauss, Kieran can theoretically wait because his mission unlocks too much, and there's some talk that he was imprisoned for a month. I wonder if I shouldn't go with Javier, although supposedly hunting with Hosea is the first expedition to the mountains.

 

Debt collection blocks other missions, except for robbing a house with Javier . If I collect one debt and return to camp to return it, will the other missions become active again?

 

Edited March 27 by BleddynRPG

[luckycanadian95]

13 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I mean, you have to go hunting in order to go with Uncle to Valentine. And you have to do it so that another mission doesn't unlock the letter from Mary. Question, if I only have one horse and it stayed in the camp, does that horse magically appear in the stable?

I'm not sure what happens if you only have one horse. But typically after Exit you'd have a couple at least: the Tennessee Walker from the first chapter, a new one that you bought during the mission, and maybe the Shire as well if you chose to stable it rather than sell.

 

In that case when you enter the stables, your primary horse will still be at camp, but under "Manage Owned Horses" you have the option to retrieve the horse, and selecting that will magically teleport it over to you.

 

For realism though I prefer to avoid any teleportation  I'll whistle for the Tennessee Walker at the beginning of Exit when I leave camp with Hosea, so I can imagine that Arthur stables the horse when they stop in Valentine, then later after returning the borrowed horse from PSVS I'll just retrieve the Tennessee Walker at the stables since technically my new horse is still back at camp.
 

13 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Hunting, riding with Uncle and the girls, fighting with Tommy, then bathing, fighting two O'Driscolls and robbing the guy they were beating (Bandite 1), then Jim Boy, staying at the hotel and in the morning the first bounty mission, then horseback riding towards Flatneck Station and the dinosaur lady, mexican sharpshooter, first treasure map and Swanson. Riding at night and preparing ammo at the trapper's, then reaching the guys in the morning and rescuing Sean (you can kill two bounty hunters with a knife which can unlock weapon expert 2). Then back to camp, second treasure map and gold digger, and at 8pm Sean's party.

Unfortunately that order is impossible because you need to play WS or AAR or PSVS to unlock Exit. So if you still wanted to go hunting before the ride with Uncle or the fight at the saloon, your only option would be rescuing Swanson on the first day, which you mentioned is not your favourite because of the disappearing wagon.

 

(Although in my opinion you can just headcanon that somebody moved the wagon temporarily). 

 

Your order would still have a few problems though even if you did rescue Swanson before the hunting trip:

• Arthur will only have enough money to buy the worst horse at the Valentine stables, which is a significant downgrade from our current horse.
• Hosea says "It's been a rough couple of weeks" in the opening cutscene of Exit, despite the fact that presumably the gang has just been relaxing during the time jump after Eastward Bound.
• The journal entry for the hunting trip says that Arthur "took a day off" with Hosea, which implies that he wanted a break from doing his usual work for the gang, but at this point in the chapter he hasn't been doing much work lately.
• On their way into the mountains Arthur and Hosea will talk about Josiah Trelawny, which likely means that players are supposed to have already been introduced to this character before, during the events of AAR and TFSBL.
• You would arguably be leaving the boys in Valentine for an unrealistic amount of time.
• I doubt that Arthur would spend time on a bounty mission and greeting all those strangers when he knows that Sean urgently needs to be rescued.

13 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Funny thing, first time playing I didn't notice this mission in Blackwater, because it appears after some time.

LOL yeah I feel like it gets missed a lot

Edited March 27 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

15 minutes ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Unfortunately that order is impossible because you need to play WS or AAR or PSVS to unlock Exit. So if you still wanted to go hunting before the ride with Uncle or the fight at the saloon, your only option would be rescuing Swanson on the first day, which you mentioned is not your favourite because of the disappearing wagon.

I had in mind a quick hunt for the camp. I'm saving the hunting with Hosea for later, after Sean's party. 

I'm currently after Sean's party and collecting debts. And I'm wondering what to do next. I can choose from second bounty mission, Downes, Kieran and hunting with Hosea.

 

 

[BleddynRPG]

35 minutes ago, luckycanadian95 said:

I doubt that Arthur would spend time on a bounty mission and greeting all those strangers when he knows that Sean urgently needs to be rescued.

 

If Arthur were to leave immediately, he'd be at Blackwater sooner than Javier with Trelawny. The fight with Tommy ended at 9pm, so by the time the three of them get to Blackwater, Arthur has the whole day to get there.

[luckycanadian95]

3 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I had in mind a quick hunt for the camp. I'm saving the hunting with Hosea for later, after Sean's party. 

I'm currently after Sean's party and collecting debts. And I'm wondering what to do next. I can choose from second bounty mission, Downes, Kieran and hunting with Hosea.

Ah sorry I misunderstood. To answer your question about the debts, you can absolutely collect just one debt and return it, then other missions will become available again. The remaining debts become optional side activities, except for Thomas Downes of course.

 

I like to play Money Lending and Other Sins III after reading Mary's letter (We Loved Once and True I) because you get an additional cutscene where Arthur looks very troubled and he gets another reminder from Strauss:
 

 

The second bounty mission in Valentine I always save for John. If you capture only Benedict Allbright he will disappear from the sheriff's office in the epilogue. But if you capture both Allbright and Ellie Anne Swan as Arthur they will both still be there in the epilogue, and strangely will greet John as if he was the one who captured them.

Edited March 28 by luckycanadian95

[luckycanadian95]

1 hour ago, BleddynRPG said:

If Arthur were to leave immediately, he'd be at Blackwater sooner than Javier with Trelawny. The fight with Tommy ended at 9pm, so by the time the three of them get to Blackwater, Arthur has the whole day to get there.

In my opinion the fight with Tommy should happen in the afternoon, given how many shopkeepers and others are watching in the street. What I usually do is return to camp and sleep until night, since Arthur would likely need to recover briefly after the fight, and then ride through the night to meet Javier and the others in Blackwater at dawn. That would still give them enough time to set up camp and rest for a few hours before Arthur gets there.

Edited March 27 by luckycanadian95

[luckycanadian95]

16 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

BTW, I wonder what would fit after Sean's party. Dutch didn't approach me about Strauss, Kieran can theoretically wait because his mission unlocks too much, and there's some talk that he was imprisoned for a month. I wonder if I shouldn't go with Javier, although supposedly hunting with Hosea is the first expedition to the mountains.

Good question, I've been wondering about this myself.

 

Lately my choice has been Javier's companion activity, given that it seems like a natural follow-up to AAR and will guarantee you enough money for a better horse during Exit, but you're right that Chez Porter is arguably located in the mountains, whereas the dialogue in Exit suggests that Arthur hasn't returned to that part of the map yet.

• Arthur: So… what’s this lake we’re heading for?
• Hosea: It’s called O’Creagh’s Run, up by the mountains east of Cumberland Falls. I just hope I can remember how to get there.
• Arthur: Back into the mountains? I sure didn’t figure on that.

I completely agree that Social Call would take place later on. Assuming that you play Money Lending and Other Sins II beforehand, which I would argue is the intended order, Social Call will unlock both Quiet Time and Mary's letter. You can't even ignore the letter easily because it blocks you from sleeping at your tent aha. So I feel like Social Call is meant to be the last of the "early" missions and serves as a transition into the second phase of the chapter.

 

Dutch will only approach you about money lending when the following conditions are met:

• You have completed AAR + any 2 other missions
• You enter the general area behind Dutch's tent
• Dutch is standing (not sitting on his bed)

That first condition is another reason why I dislike doing PSVS before AAR, because you tend have Dutch asking you to help Strauss when Sean still needs to be rescued, which is pretty odd and clearly not intended.

 

During my playthroughs I usually get the reminder after Sean's party which might actually be a clue that we're supposed to do MLAOS at that point. This could make a lot of sense too because money lending is technically the third lead that Hosea mentioned at the start of the chapter ("...And Strauss came back with that creepy little smile on his face. I'm sure there's a whole list of unfortunates he's forced money upon.") So it seems fitting that our first mission centered around earning money ends up being the one that Hosea told us about initially. Also doing the home robbery before money lending makes the latter reward seem almost pointless ($150-300 vs $25ish). 

 

Surprisingly the other day I was able to earn enough money for the American Standardbred without any of the other traditional money-making missions like the home robbery, Good Honest Snake Oil, or Paying a Social Call. All I did was complete each of the 3 debts after the party and sell the shire horse and I was able to afford it. I think when we test mission orders we tend to skip over things like searching bodies or locations, which most other people would be doing in a typical playthrough, so maybe we assume that another mission is required to afford a decent horse, when in reality we just needed to spend more time looting our surroundings.

 

All of this makes me think that MLAOS is probably the intended mission after rescuing Sean, and I think we should probably follow that up with Exit since we know that Arthur really hates debt collecting based on his journal entries, so that likely explains why he tells Hosea "I could do with a break from this place" and characterizes the hunting trip in his journal as taking a day off.

Edited March 27 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

That first condition is another reason why I dislike doing PSVS before AAR, because you tend have Dutch asking you to help Strauss when Sean still needs to be rescued, which is pretty odd and clearly not intended.

I did PSVS-AAR-WINWS-FSBL and Dutch sits quietly after the party, and as usual I do camp work after waking up.

After returning with Swanson, Dutch merely mentioned that I should look into rescuing Sean.

 

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

 I think when we test mission orders we tend to skip over things like searching bodies or locations, which most other people would be doing in a typical playthrough, so maybe we assume that another mission is required to afford a decent horse, when in reality we just needed to spend more time looting our surroundings.

In chapter one I take everything I can, I check every body. Once at the beginning I did a hunt with Hosea right after Swanson's mission, I got a Mexican shooter and two O'Driscolls, I won in poker, I robbed that tough guy who fought Swanson and the witness. I collected over 150 after selling the Shire. But I'll still take the special horse for free.

 

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

All of this makes me think that MLAOS is probably the intended mission after rescuing Sean, and I think we should probably follow that up with Exit since we know that Arthur really hates debt collecting based on his journal entries, so that likely explains why he tells Hosea "I could do with a break from this place" and characterizes the hunting trip in his journal as taking a day off.

Arthur's diary is probably the real him. He normally plays a cold bastard. The scene with Strauss when he says he likes it I always treats it as a show.

Edited March 28 by BleddynRPG

[BleddynRPG]

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

The second bounty mission in Valentine I always save for John. If you capture only Benedict Allbright he will disappear from the sheriff's office in the epilogue. But if you capture both Allbright and Ellie Anne Swan as Arthur they will both still be there in the epilogue, and strangely will greet John as if he was the one who captured them.

Too bad. I wonder if it's intentional or a mistake. Ellie Anne Swan would fit as there's a map of High Stakes Treasure next to it.

 

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

n my opinion the fight with Tommy should happen in the afternoon, given how many shopkeepers and others are watching in the street.

Doing AAR right after PSVS, fighting in the saloon is daytime, and when Tommy throws Arthur through the window it's evening. I assume that as people gather for home, do their last shopping, a crowd can also gather in the street. Trelawny also has to have time to find a camp and come with Dutch to Valentine.

It's funny how everyone except Pinkerton has no problem getting to the camp.

 

[BleddynRPG]

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Also doing the home robbery before money lending makes the latter reward seem almost pointless ($150-300 vs $25ish). 

This could also be the key to the bounty mission, Ellie Anne Swan is worth less than Albright.

[BleddynRPG]

I was also wondering about Who is not without sin, there is a tutorial for poker, it also unlocks poker in the camp. Completing the first gambler challenge is relatively easy, but the next one, Blackjack, is possible in Rhodes and Van Horn. The third Horseman challenge also suggests going to Rhodes. Billy Midnight also points to Rhodes. 

Two thoughts occur to me. The first is that he might postpone finding Swanson until later, like after A Quiet Time, when we wake up hungover at the station. The second is that maybe Arthur lied to the deputy sheriff in Rhodes and this isn't his first time there. Arthur is played by a great actor, so he's a good actor himself.

[luckycanadian95]

19 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I did PSVS-AAR-WINWS-FSBL and Dutch sits quietly after the party, and as usual I do camp work after waking up.

After returning with Swanson, Dutch merely mentioned that I should look into rescuing Sean.

He does mention rescuing Sean if you greet him, but almost guaranteed if you were to go behind his tent while he's standing he would approach you about money lending. So you might get lucky and avoid it but the simple fact that he could approach you early is what bothers me.
 

19 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Too bad. I wonder if it's intentional or a mistake. Ellie Anne Swan would fit as there's a map of High Stakes Treasure next to it.

It was probably just a mistake honestly, but maybe an indication that originally the bounty was only available in the epilogue until late in development. The lower reward might be an indication too like you suggested.

 

19 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Doing AAR right after PSVS, fighting in the saloon is daytime, and when Tommy throws Arthur through the window it's evening. I assume that as people gather for home, do their last shopping, a crowd can also gather in the street. Trelawny also has to have time to find a camp and come with Dutch to Valentine.

Maybe but the size of the crowd is more comparable to what you see during the day. I think around 6 or 7 pm is realistic but 9 like you mentioned feels too late.

 

19 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

It's funny how everyone except Pinkerton has no problem getting to the camp.

Aha yeah I wonder how Trelawny even found them 

 

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I was also wondering about Who is not without sin, there is a tutorial for poker, it also unlocks poker in the camp. Completing the first gambler challenge is relatively easy, but the next one, Blackjack, is possible in Rhodes and Van Horn. The third Horseman challenge also suggests going to Rhodes. Billy Midnight also points to Rhodes. 

Two thoughts occur to me. The first is that he might postpone finding Swanson until later, like after A Quiet Time, when we wake up hungover at the station. The second is that maybe Arthur lied to the deputy sheriff in Rhodes and this isn't his first time there. Arthur is played by a great actor, so he's a good actor himself.

The "canon" ending of Quiet Time might actually be to get arrested with Lenny instead of escaping, just based on the way Arthur interacts with Lenny back at camp. You also get more story that way because there's an additional cutscene of them being released from jail together.

 

I don't like visiting other states until the main story brings me there but I guess Arthur could be lying to the deputy. There's no rush to meet the gunslingers though because you can't even meet Jim Boy again until chapter 4, which is most likely a clue that we're meant to space them out. Plus the main story doesn't introduce dueling until you confront Jamie during We Loved Once and True III, so in my opinion none of the gunslinger encounters should take place before that mission. Another issue is that during Further Questions of Female Suffrage you get a request from Sadie for a harmonica, and the way Arthur responds suggests that he doesn't have one yet, but the harmonica is found in Emmet Granger's home. So maybe we aren't supposed to meet any of the gunslingers until late in chapter three when Arthur goes back west?

 

Regarding the timing of Without Sin, I've also considered playing it later but there really is decent evidence that it was meant to go near the beginning of the chapter:

• It was among the initial leads that we got from Hosea shortly after Eastward Bound.
• When not played by the time of Sean's party, the Reverend will abruptly teleport into camp during the event rather than stumble in from the trees as you might expect if this was the intended order.
• Swanson has dialogue at the party that seems to be referencing the events of his mission:
  • Before he starts drinking: "There is little joy left in drinking for me."
  • Once he gets wasted: "This keeps happening…"
• WS has the tutorial for the witness system, which obviously makes sense to get early and is taken for granted in other missions like ML1-2.
• Even though you don't agree with this I'd still argue that WS has the tutorial for interacting with people in the open world, which is taken for granted when you question the hotel clerk during PSVS.

Edited March 29 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

6 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Maybe but the size of the crowd is more comparable to what you see during the day. I think around 6 or 7 pm is realistic but 9 like you mentioned feels too late.

When I enter the saloon it is usually 7pm, but after the mission it is 9pm.

 

6 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Aha yeah I wonder how Trelawny even found them

And Mrs. Downes ...

 

6 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

So maybe we aren't supposed to meet any of the gunslingers until late in chapter three when Arthur goes back west?

Good point. That being said, the actual thing to do is seek out Swanson before talking to Jim Boy's biographer, because then there will be no temptation to go to Granger.

 

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

The "canon" ending of Quiet Time might actually be to get arrested with Lenny instead of escaping, just based on the way Arthur interacts with Lenny back at camp. You also get more story that way because there's an additional cutscene of them being released from jail together.

I have some internal resistance in this game to go to jail. Of course the first time I didn't manage to escape and I ended up there with Lenny, but still this ending up in jail and getting out of there seems funny to me. Every ending up in jail should mean that maybe Arthur will be recognized and the Pinkertons appear. That's why even though it may not be a canonical choice, I like it when Arthur escapes and wakes up with a hangover.

 

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Even though you don't agree with this I'd still argue that WS has the tutorial for interacting with people in the open world, which is taken for granted when you question the hotel clerk during PSVS.

I generally agree and understand all the arguments for and against. For me, and according to the guide, WINWS is about how to deal with a witness to a crime, and that among other things, we can also rob him. So maybe it makes the most sense to do the mission from the first row first - WINWS-PSVS-AAR.

 

I noticed that after the fight with Tommy the bounty mission disappears, unless we leave Valentine or reload the game.

 

[BleddynRPG]

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Another issue is that during Further Questions of Female Suffrage you get a request from Sadie for a harmonica, and the way Arthur responds suggests that he doesn't have one yet, but the harmonica is found in Emmet Granger's home

There are many requests in the game that you can fulfill right away, or only a few chapters later. So I wouldn't attach much importance to it.

Granger is currently in a place where there doesn't seem to be any missions nearby, apart from Swanson's, so he can safely wait until chapter three.

[Dan_1983]

On 3/27/2025 at 10:02 PM, luckycanadian95 said:

Ah sorry I misunderstood. To answer your question about the debts, you can absolutely collect just one debt and return it, then other missions will become available again. The remaining debts become optional side activities, except for Thomas Downes of course.

 

I do this. I collect Wrobel's debt and return to camp and then collect Chick and Lily's debts before meeting Hosea at Emerald Ranch. I have done all three in one go but I find there is too many damn distractions such as that woman trapped under her horse who then asks me to take her the opposite direction in where I am going. Usually I do her random encounter if she's trapped under her horse outside Limpany.

 

I have started Money Lending and Other Sins straight after Americans at Rest as I know the boys are scouting in Blackwater overnight. I only collected Wrobel's debt and returned to camp. After Sean's party, I went hunting with Hosea and stayed behind to kill the bear and sell to trapper and then on my way back to camp visited Lily Milet and Chick Matthews to collect their debts.

[luckycanadian95]

On 3/29/2025 at 2:00 AM, BleddynRPG said:

When I enter the saloon it is usually 7pm, but after the mission it is 9pm.

What time do you start PSVS? You might know this already but if you start the mission before 1 pm the clock will actually freeze at noonish until you leave the general store, so you could meet the boys at the saloon earlier and still play both missions on the same day if you wanted.

 

On 3/29/2025 at 2:00 AM, BleddynRPG said:

And Mrs. Downes ...

That one is pretty ridiculous honestly 

 

On 3/29/2025 at 2:09 AM, BleddynRPG said:

There are many requests in the game that you can fulfill right away, or only a few chapters later. So I wouldn't attach much importance to it.

Granger is currently in a place where there doesn't seem to be any missions nearby, apart from Swanson's, so he can safely wait until chapter three.

Yeah but I do wonder if we should try not to have the items on hand when we get the request since Arthur responds to everyone like he doesn't have their item yet, especially for these requests that are given at a fixed time during a mission like the harmonica or Jack's comic.

 

Just a side note it seems like Granger is meant to be the first gunslinger that we encounter since he's the first one mentioned by the biographer, the closest to Valentine, and the least challenging to deal with overall. So I'd argue that if we decide to leave him for chapter three we should postpone the rest of the gunslingers as well.

 

On 3/29/2025 at 2:00 AM, BleddynRPG said:

Good point. That being said, the actual thing to do is seek out Swanson before talking to Jim Boy's biographer, because then there will be no temptation to go to Granger.

When do you think Arthur should meet Theodore?

 

Most people encounter him on their first trip to Valentine, but I doubt Arthur would visit multiple saloons in one day, and there is never any mention of the recent commotion outside with Tommy which feels a bit weird, not to mention the urgency of leaving town to rescue Sean.

 

I've tried playing it immediately after WLOAT3, since that mission gives the main tutorial for dueling and leaves you at the Valentine Church which is conveniently right beside Keane's Saloon where this stranger is found, but in my opinion the funny light-hearted tone seems out of place after those bittersweet scenes with Mary.

 

I also thought it could fit pretty nicely at the end of the chapter before The Sheep and the Goats, since that late timing would offer an explanation for why Arthur ends up not visiting any of the gunslingers right away, but sadly it gets blocked while John's mission is available. 

 

So personally I feel like the best timing for The Noblest of Men and a Woman is during a separate trip to Valentine in the middle of the chapter. Maybe Arthur goes back into town for some errands and to pick up the first bounty as Uncle suggested (Good Honest Snake Oil), and then he rewards himself with a drink at Keane's Saloon where he encounters the biographer. It makes sense that he'd avoid the main saloon at this point given the events of AAR.

 

On 3/29/2025 at 2:00 AM, BleddynRPG said:

I generally agree and understand all the arguments for and against. For me, and according to the guide, WINWS is about how to deal with a witness to a crime, and that among other things, we can also rob him. So maybe it makes the most sense to do the mission from the first row first - WINWS-PSVS-AAR.

 

I noticed that after the fight with Tommy the bounty mission disappears, unless we leave Valentine or reload the game.

That's not a bad idea. I think these would all be viable ways to start the chapter depending on what you like:

• WS > AAR > TFSBL   #My favourite
• AAR > WS > TFSBL
• WS > PSVS > AAR > TFSBL

Edited March 30 by luckycanadian95

[luckycanadian95]

On 3/29/2025 at 12:37 PM, Dan_1983 said:

I do this. I collect Wrobel's debt and return to camp and then collect Chick and Lily's debts before meeting Hosea at Emerald Ranch. I have done all three in one go but I find there is too many damn distractions such as that woman trapped under her horse who then asks me to take her the opposite direction in where I am going. Usually I do her random encounter if she's trapped under her horse outside Limpany.

Interesting, I always like hearing the way others tackle the debts because there's so many options.

 

For me I prefer doing all 3 debts at once because it seems like that would be the intended approach, and I'd say it makes better sense in the last cutscene for Strauss to say "there is one other… this farmer, preacher feller who I met in Valentine" if we already settled the other accounts.

 

I'll start the mission in the evening and go to sleep before collecting any debts, because the journal entry implies that Arthur hasn't gone to see any of the debtors yet: "It’ll be the usual sort of desperados - sick farmers, pregnant maids, lovesick young men, and other dupes desperate enough and stupid enough to take Strauss’ terms." Plus I like to have more time to interact with everyone at camp while their usual missions are disabled (ex. Hosea).

 

The next morning I'll follow the signs to Emerald Ranch, examining register rock on the way, since narratively it could fit better to deal with the more light-hearted debts first and conclude with the darkest one. I always visit Emerald Ranch before Guthrie Farm because in my opinion the Lilly Millet debt is a much more "traditional" encounter given that you need to question the locals and then beat somebody up to collect the money. Plus when you deal with Chick Matthews there's some dialogue where Arthur says "Why can't none of you fools just pay?" that I'd say fits better if this is not our first debtor.

 

From the tree where Chick stored his treasure I'll follow the tracks east before looping around near Emerald Station, then going west down that road back toward the farm I usually encounter the lady trapped under her horse and bring her to Valentine. By now it's getting pretty close to evening which matches the fact that Wrobel has the lights on at home and seems to be preparing dinner. Like I mentioned before I think it's fitting to end with Wrobel because his encounter is probably the most depressing.

 

On 3/29/2025 at 12:37 PM, Dan_1983 said:

I have started Money Lending and Other Sins straight after Americans at Rest as I know the boys are scouting in Blackwater overnight. I only collected Wrobel's debt and returned to camp. After Sean's party, I went hunting with Hosea and stayed behind to kill the bear and sell to trapper and then on my way back to camp visited Lily Milet and Chick Matthews to collect their debts.

My issue with this order is that Arthur hates collecting debts so I don't really buy that he'd volunteer to help Strauss before getting asked by Dutch, and even if you've played enough missions for Dutch to approach you, I also don't buy that Dutch would tell Arthur to collect debts when Sean needs to be rescued. If you greet Dutch he basically scolds you for not going to Blackwater already so I think he wants Arthur to rescue Sean before doing anything else: "When are you going to meet Trelawney and the others? If there's a chance to get to Sean…" 

Edited March 31 by luckycanadian95

[luckycanadian95]

Question for everyone. When you find the hidden treasure map near the hot springs for All That Glitters, do you still get some dialogue from Arthur or John about it?

 

They used to comment on the fact that Maximo only said there would be two maps but in my current playthrough there's no dialogue at all. Wondering if this is related to a recent patch or maybe caused by something else.

 

UPDATE - It seems like the dialogue might only happen if you talk with Maximo and then find all the maps without loading a save… bit unfortunate if that's the case

 

For reference it's the line at 6:55 in this video:

 

Edited March 31 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

When do you think Arthur should meet Theodore?

I think your idea is very good, to have it happen after Albright is captured, which can happen after saying goodbye to Mary. Especially since the game leaves us there.

BTW, I don't understand why this mission ends at the station. Mary was going to leave without Jamie that day anyway?

 

I generally don't like playing bounty hunter as Arthur. Supposedly Arthur tells Albright that he's doing it for the money, but the other missions make less sense, because Arthur already has money at this stage and 25-50 dollars doesn't make a difference. Besides, the creators could have left this one for John too. Arthur is an outlaw for life. In the third chapter it's more visible than in the second. In Lemoyne, shortly after arriving, Arthur eagerly sets off on a money convoy. The plan of Dutch and his gang is really: make a lot of noise, make a lot of money and get out of here.

Edited March 31 by BleddynRPG

[Dan_1983]

9 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Interesting, I always like hearing the way others tackle the debts because there's so many options.

 

For me I prefer doing all 3 debts at once because it seems like that would be the intended approach, and I'd say it makes better sense in the last cutscene for Strauss to say "there is one other… this farmer, preacher feller who I met in Valentine" if we already settled the other accounts.

 

I'll start the mission in the evening and go to sleep before collecting any debts, because the journal entry implies that Arthur hasn't gone to see any of the debtors yet: "It’ll be the usual sort of desperados - sick farmers, pregnant maids, lovesick young men, and other dupes desperate enough and stupid enough to take Strauss’ terms." Plus I like to have more time to interact with everyone at camp while their usual missions are disabled (ex. Hosea).

 

The next morning I'll follow the signs to Emerald Ranch, examining register rock on the way, since narratively it could fit better to deal with the more light-hearted debts first and conclude with the darkest one. I always visit Emerald Ranch before Guthrie Farm because in my opinion the Lilly Millet debt is a much more "traditional" encounter given that you need to question the locals and then beat somebody up to collect the money. Plus when you deal with Chick Matthews there's some dialogue where Arthur says "Why can't none of you fools just pay?" that I'd say fits better if this is not our first debtor.

 

From the tree where Chick stored his treasure I'll follow the tracks east before looping around near Emerald Station, then going west down that road back toward the farm I usually encounter the lady trapped under her horse and bring her to Valentine. By now it's getting pretty close to evening which matches the fact that Wrobel has the lights on at home and seems to be preparing dinner. Like I mentioned before I think it's fitting to end with Wrobel because his encounter is probably the most depressing.

 

My issue with this order is that Arthur hates collecting debts so I don't really buy that he'd volunteer to help Strauss before getting asked by Dutch, and even if you've played enough missions for Dutch to approach you, I also don't buy that Dutch would tell Arthur to collect debts when Sean needs to be rescued. If you greet Dutch he basically scolds you for not going to Blackwater already so I think he wants Arthur to rescue Sean before doing anything else: "When are you going to meet Trelawney and the others? If there's a chance to get to Sean…" 

I forgot to mention that as soon as I enter camp after Americans at Rest, Dutch will always approach Arthur in helping Strauss no matter what order I do the missions in.  I also think it is good to unlock camp provisions early.

 

This is an order I have done before.

 

Who is Not Without Sin

 

Americans at Rest - Dutch approaches me to help Strauss when I return to camp.

Money Lending and Other Sins - collect Wrobel debt and return to camp.

 

The First Shall Be the Last 

 

Exit Pursued by A Bruised Ego - return to camp with Hosea. Arthur notices Uncle's lazy ass sleeping against wagon.

 

Polite Society Valentine Style

Good Honest Snake Oil - when returning to camp, Susan approaches about Hosea. I usually ride towards near register rock and camp nearby. 

 

Chick Matthews debt

Lilly Millet debt

The Spines of America

 

My problem with this order is I don't really like doing anything in between AAR and TFSBL, as rescuing Sean would be the top priority.

 

[BleddynRPG]

2 hours ago, Dan_1983 said:

My problem with this order is I don't really like doing anything in between AAR and TFSBL, as rescuing Sean would be the top priority.

Between the fight with Tommy and saving Sean, we don't have to go back to camp. It doesn't even look good if we have to go after Javier and Trelawny immediately. In the camp, either Dutch asks why we haven't gone to save Sean yet or we tell him about Jimmy Brooks, if we also did PSVS.

if we travel through the area at night, we avoid Albert Mason along the way.

 

Edited March 31 by BleddynRPG

[luckycanadian95]

19 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

I think your idea is very good, to have it happen after Albright is captured, which can happen after saying goodbye to Mary. Especially since the game leaves us there.

Yeah maybe, although one issue is that WLOAT3 finishes in the evening, so by the time you capture Allbright it'll be the middle of the night, whereas I'm pretty sure Noblest is a daytime mission with how the saloon is empty.

 

I have a feeling as well that Arthur is meant to wrap up his business with Sheriff Malloy before getting arrested with Lenny in Quiet Time, assuming that outcome is canon, since the deputy tells them "Now get outta here. And I don’t wanna see either of you around here no more."

 

19 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

BTW, I don't understand why this mission ends at the station. Mary was going to leave without Jamie that day anyway?

I think she was leaving to visit their dad in Saint Denis and make sure Jamie made it back to him safely.

 

17 hours ago, Dan_1983 said:

I forgot to mention that as soon as I enter camp after Americans at Rest, Dutch will always approach Arthur in helping Strauss no matter what order I do the missions in.

Really? That's odd because he never seems to do that for me until I've played three missions. If I start the chapter with AAR and TFSBL for example, Dutch will always congratulate me on finding the "Irish Terrier" after the party but never talks about Strauss no matter how long I hang out behind his tent, but then suddenly once I get Swanson he approaches about it consistently 

 

15 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Between the fight with Tommy and saving Sean, we don't have to go back to camp. It doesn't even look good if we have to go after Javier and Trelawny immediately. In the camp, either Dutch asks why we haven't gone to save Sean yet or we tell him about Jimmy Brooks, if we also did PSVS.

if we travel through the area at night, we avoid Albert Mason along the way.

You and Dan might be right that Mason should be avoided. I forgot that if you start Arcadia on the way to get Sean it cancels out the encounter with lawmen on the border, which you're supposed to get when the game warns you about how Blackwater is in lockdown. It also seems weird how the bounty hunter camp is mostly empty when you chase the coyote but then during TFSBL it's suddenly filled with supplies and messy tents as though people have been staying there for days. It's even worse when you play it on the way back from getting Sean because not only have all the tents and supplies disappeared from minutes ago but none of the bodies are there either.

 

I think the only other time it could make sense to run into Mason is on the way to rescue Micah in Strawberry or maybe when you're doing Hector's stage coach robbery, but I think by that point you should be onto the second or third encounters so I might prefer the first option.

Edited April 1 by luckycanadian95

[Dan_1983]

I do Mason's first encounter on my way to breaking Micah out of jail. I take that long road to Strawberry to visit the stable and stock up on horse supplies first and to avoid escorting the lost New Yorker back to Strawberry as that encounter irritates me because of how slow he is. I wish Arthur just let the man ride on his horse with him and be done with it haha.

 

His second encounter I do around the same time I do Watson's cabin robbery usually near the end of Chapter 2. 

[BleddynRPG]

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Yeah maybe, although one issue is that WLOAT3 finishes in the evening, so by the time you capture Allbright it'll be the middle of the night, whereas I'm pretty sure Noblest is a daytime mission with how the saloon is empty.

My mistake, I thought the mission with Mary ended just before dawn.

But nothing is lost, personally I like to read my diary, talk to Mickey. Meeting Jim Boy can also work to loosen up the atmosphere. Once after a mission with Mary I went on a long hunt in the north, another time I took on the bandit challenge and robbed stores.

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

It also seems weird how the bounty hunter camp is mostly empty when you chase the coyote but then during TFSBL it's suddenly filled with supplies and messy tents as though people have been staying there for days. It's even worse when you play it on the way back from getting Sean because not only have all the tents and supplies disappeared from minutes ago but none of the bodies are there either.

I once watched as a team of sheriffs arrived at the scene and loaded the bodies onto wagons.

 

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

think the only other time it could make sense to run into Mason is on the way to rescue Micah in Strawberry or maybe when you're doing Hector's stage coach robbery, but I think by that point you should be onto the second or third encounters so I might prefer the first option.

I think the first two encounters with Albert should be in chapter one, relatively close to each other, and then a longer break because if I remember correctly, during the meeting at Emerald Ranch, Albert says he's been trying to get a picture of horses for weeks.

 

1 hour ago, Dan_1983 said:

His second encounter I do around the same time I do Watson's cabin robbery usually near the end of Chapter 2. 

Basically every mission with Micah can be done after meeting Albert.

Edited April 1 by BleddynRPG

[BleddynRPG]

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Yeah maybe, although one issue is that WLOAT3 finishes in the evening, so by the time you capture Allbright it'll be the middle of the night, whereas I'm pretty sure Noblest is a daytime mission with how the saloon is empty.

My mistake, I thought the mission with Mary ended just before dawn.

But nothing is lost, personally I like to read my diary, talk to Mickey. Meeting Jim Boy can also work to loosen up the atmosphere. Once after a mission with Mary I went on a long hunt in the north, another time I took on the bandit challenge and robbed stores.

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

It also seems weird how the bounty hunter camp is mostly empty when you chase the coyote but then during TFSBL it's suddenly filled with supplies and messy tents as though people have been staying there for days. It's even worse when you play it on the way back from getting Sean because not only have all the tents and supplies disappeared from minutes ago but none of the bodies are there either.

I once watched as a team of sheriffs arrived at the scene and loaded the bodies onto wagons.

 

8 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

I think the only other time it could make sense to run into Mason is on the way to rescue Micah in Strawberry or maybe when you're doing Hector's stage coach robbery, but I think by that point you should be onto the second or third encounters so I might prefer the first option.

I think the first two encounters with Albert should be in chapter two, relatively close to each other, and then a longer break because if I remember correctly, during the meeting at Emerald Ranch, Albert says he's been trying to get a picture of horses for weeks.

 

2 hours ago, Dan_1983 said:

His second encounter I do around the same time I do Watson's cabin robbery usually near the end of Chapter 2. 

Basically every mission with Micah can be done after meeting Albert.

 

I'm still wondering about Arthur's journal entry about Emerald Ranch and Lilly Millet's debt, and Hosea's remark that Arthur had been around the area so he knew the way to Carmody Dell. In fact, the entry about the ER is as if it was the first time he had heard the name and was here, although Strauss also says that Lilly is in the ER.

Edited April 1 by BleddynRPG

[Dan_1983]

On 4/1/2025 at 2:10 AM, luckycanadian95 said:

I have a feeling as well that Arthur is meant to wrap up his business with Sheriff Malloy before getting arrested with Lenny in Quiet Time, assuming that outcome is canon, since the deputy tells them "Now get outta here. And I don’t wanna see either of you around here no more."

I usually like getting arrested as Arthur's horse is there when getting out of jail and he can have a delicious saloon meal for breakfast and a bath.

 

Lenny's dialogue also changes in camp depending on how you ended that mission too. 

 

I do like the idea of escaping though as no one catches Arthur alive haha.

 

The only trouble is you wake up in the middle of nowhere near Flatneck station and your horse is still in Valentine. You of course have to walk back to camp and use the horse station (if you have it) to get your horse back. If I am in a real roleplaying mood or have no horse station, I take one of the spare horses at camp (usually the Chestnut TW) and stable it in Valentine. I never use the same horse in a playthrough and alternate in using two or three.

 

Anyways, I usually make sure I do both bounties in Valentine before A Quiet Time. 

 

 

 

Edited April 6 by Dan_1983