RED DEAD REDEMPTION 2 - "Chronological" Mission Order

[Dan_1983]

Yes it is.

[luckycanadian95]

On 2/13/2025 at 2:30 PM, Jisoo said:

Its possible to whistle for your horse as you ride the wagon with Uncle and the girls to Valentine so it will follow you there, isnt it? 

That could work too, but I feel like the reason why Arthur borrows a horse is that he didn't bring his own.

 

On 2/13/2025 at 12:55 PM, JB1982 said:

I like to leave Polite Society until after I have been hunting with Hosea and can retrieve my horse from the stables. I also like doing it after Americans at Rest because of the additional dialogue that you get (as mentioned above).

 

However, I do kind of feel like the game is pointing you to that mission first. It's the only mission available in camp and, up to this point, all missions have started in camp. It also feels like the dialogue from Uncle and the girls as you approach and ride through Valentine is meant to be an introduction to the town. I just really can't stand the idea of being left without a horse but as mentioned, you can always reload the game and get your horse that way. And I suppose if you return the horse to Valentine during the mission, you can immediately walk to the saloon to start Americans at Rest. Does your horse appear automatically at the end of that mission? That could also solve that issue.

Yeah I think that Polite Society becomes an objectively better mission after Americans at Rest, since we get the full version of the dialogue, the lip syncing matches what Arthur is saying, that bugged version of the Thomas Downes encounter never happens, etc.

 

One of the issues with playing Exit beforehand is that Polite Society inevitably happens close to the third week, so again what Mary-Beth said about the girls being stuck at camp for a couple weeks doesn't match anymore.

 

Another potential issue is that none of the main missions will have given you enough money to afford a decent horse at the stables which might not be intended.

 

Plus there's a lot of dialogue in Exit that sounds like it was meant to be referencing or maybe setting up the events of Paying a Social Call and A Quiet Time, so arguably it would improve the narrative to go hunting with Hosea around the same time as those missions.

 

But on the other hand it makes a lot of sense to have the stables unlocked early. Any thoughts?

 

From what I remember your horse doesn't spawn after Americans at Rest but that'd be worth testing again

Edited February 15 by luckycanadian95

[JB1982]

On 2/14/2025 at 11:46 PM, luckycanadian95 said:

That could work too, but I feel like the reason why Arthur borrows a horse is that he didn't bring his own.

 

Yeah I think that Polite Society becomes an objectively better mission after Americans at Rest, since we get the full version of the dialogue, the lip syncing matches what Arthur is saying, that bugged version of the Thomas Downes encounter never happens, etc.

 

One of the issues with playing Exit beforehand is that Polite Society inevitably happens close to the third week, so again what Mary-Beth said about the girls being stuck at camp for a couple weeks doesn't match anymore.

 

Another potential issue is that none of the main missions will have given you enough money to afford a decent horse at the stables which might not be intended.

 

Plus there's a lot of dialogue in Exit that sounds like it was meant to be referencing or maybe setting up the events of Paying a Social Call and A Quiet Time, so arguably it would improve the narrative to go hunting with Hosea around the same time as those missions.

 

But on the other hand it makes a lot of sense to have the stables unlocked early. Any thoughts?

 

From what I remember your horse doesn't spawn after Americans at Rest but that'd be worth testing again

 

My initial thoughts are that there's no wonder this is such a divisive chapter when it comes to picking an order and Polite Society is a big reason for it! 

 

There's just so many contradictory elements to this that work both for and against Polite Society's placement. Another reason I like to do Exit Pursued early on is because Hosea keeps calling out for your attention in camp whenever you get anywhere close to him, which feels like the game is pointing you to do this pretty quickly. But when you do Exit you automatically advance to the next day as part of that mission. And Exit is unlocked by doing any of the three initial missions on offer so it feels kind of like the game is saying that whatever mission you do first, once you return to camp you should do Exit next. One advantage that Polite Society has is that Uncle's not calling out for your attention and can be avoided.

 

But as you say, if you leave Polite Society too long then the girls have been cooped up in camp for longer than "two weeks" as Mary-Beth says. That line alone says that it should be one of the earliest missions. At what point do we class it as closer to the third week then the second week? I'm kind of tempted to say up to and including day four. In which case, let's say we do Who Is Not Without Sin as the first mission on the first day. That jumps time to the evening. Arthur then rides on out to Valentine that evening for Americans at Rest. Dutch sends Charles and Javier to Blackwater with Trelawny. Arthur follows them (maybe does a stranger mission to slow things down) and arrives in the morning (day two) for The First Shall Be Last (which explains the camp site they have set up overlooking Blackwater). Rescuing Sean takes up the majority of the day and time lapses into the evening as Arthur heads back to camp for Sean's party. The next morning (day three) Hosea's calling out and invites Arthur hunting triggering Exit Pursued. It's a long ride and again it's evening by the time they get there so they sleep to the next day (day four), hunt, and then return to camp together. Arthur spots Uncle asleep and gives him a kick to trigger Polite Society.

 

So that's your first four days which maybe fits into the "two weeks" frame, gives you full dialogue and lip synching, avoids the Thomas Downes bug, and allows you access to the stables to retrieve the horse. It doesn't solve the lack of money for a decent horse side of things though once the stables are unlocked. As for Exit setting up narratively Paying a Social Call and A Quiet Time, you time these for day five which fits roughly into the same time frame if Exit is day three and four as described.

 

I'm sure I am no doubt overlooking stuff here though! 

[sherlockh]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:31 PM, luckycanadian95 said:

@sherlockh that really doesn't seem like a chronological order to be honest 

It's kind of. I try to insert Challenges and Collections while trying to follow a chronological mission order .

 

Anyways, here is part 2:

CHAPTER 5

- Welcome to the New World (Do not fall behind while walking with the chain gang, Get 10 headshots)

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- Savagery Unleashed (Release all the workers within 4 seconds, Compete within 5 minutes 40 seconds, Get 8 headshots)

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- A Kind and Benevolent Despot (Get Javier to safety in under 2 minutes, Get 10 headshots)

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- Hell Hath No Fury (Prevent 4 boats from reaching the shore, Destroy the Naval ship without missing a shot, Complete with at least 70% accuracy)

- Paradise Mercifully Departed (Kill the first 2 entries without being spotted, Escort the captain to the boat within 1 minute 45 seconds, Complete within 6 minutes 45 seconds, Get 25 headshots)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Dear Uncle Tacitus (Leave Shady Belle without being detected by the Pinkertons, Complete within 8 minutes)

- Fleeting Joy (Kill 2 Pinkertons during the Dead Eye ambush, Get 5 headshots with the Gatling Gun, Get at least 70% accuracy with the Gatling Gun, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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- A Fork in the Road (Complete within 3 minutes 5 seconds)

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- Icarus and Friends (Keep the balloon at the correct altitude for the entire journey, Get 5 headshots from the balloon, Complete with at least 70% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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- That’s Murfree Country (Deliver Meredith to her mother within 2 minutes, Get 15 headshots, Complete with at least 85% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

 

CHAPTER 6

-Discover the fate of Marko Dragic-

-Fast travel to Saint Denis-

Exotics - Duchesses and other Animals VI

-Receive mail from Theodore Levin-

-Buy weapons available at Fence-

-Hosea and Lenny Graves-

-Kieran Duffy Grave-

- Visiting Hours (Get headshots on both Prison Guards when sniping from the tower, Escape to the boat within 2 minutes 45 seconds, Complete within 9 minutes, Complete with at least 80% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

- Just A Social Call (Headshot 3 mounted enemies, After killing Cornwall, reach the horses within 2 minutes 45 seconds, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

? Widow of Willard's Rest I

- The Course of True Love 4 (Read Letter)

- Rage Unleashed (Knock out 2 soldiers on the boat, Round up the horses and reach shore within 1 minute 30 seconds)

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- Archaeology For Beginners (Recover the relics without being detected, Recover the relics within 1 minute 30 seconds)

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? The Veteran I

- Honor Amongst Thieves (Recover the vaccine without being detected, Complete within 5 minutes)

? Of Men and Angels 

- Goodbye Dear Friend (Find Colm's back up within 45 seconds, Get 8 headshots with a long scoped rifle, Complete within 6 minutes 30 seconds)

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- Fine Art of Conversation (Kill a pursuers horse during the escape, Complete within 9 minutes 30 seconds, Complete with at least 75% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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? The Course of True Love V (Headshot 5 of the Braithwaites as they pursue the train, Complete within 7 minutes 30 seconds)

- Favored Sons (Kill the soldier on the cannon within 45 seconds, Get 35 headshots, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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- King's Son (While infiltrating Fort Wallace, headshot every soldier blocking your way to Eagle Flies, Kill 15 enemies while escaping in the canoe, Complete with at least 80% accuracy)

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- Delights Of Van Horn (Headshot 5 soldiers with a long scoped rifle, Complete with at least 85% accuracy)

? Widow of Willard's Rest II

? The Veteran II

Legendary Fish - Northern Pike

- Bridge To Nowhere (Plant the dynamite within 1 minute 35 seconds, Escape the oncoming train within 19 seconds)

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- Money Lending and Other Sins VI

$ John Weathers 

$ Arthur Londonderry - Mrs Londonderry

- Money Lending and Other Sins VII

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? Do Not Seek Absolution I (Complete within 1 minute 20 seconds)

? The Veteran III

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? Do Not Seek Absolution II (Find Edith Downs within 1 minute 10 seconds)

- Mrs Sadie Adler Widow 1

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- Mrs Sadie Adler Widow 2 (Headshot the sniper in the barn, Secure the barn without taking any damage, Complete within 5 minutes 30 seconds)

? Widow of Willard's Rest III

-Sell all horses owned, saddle up the Thoroughbred-

-Aberdeen Pig Farm, let them rob you, don’t come back-

- My Last Boy (Save Paytah, Get 30 headshots, Complete with at least 80% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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- Our Best Selves (Get a headshot in Dead Eye after jumping from Dutch's Horse, Complete within 11 minutes, Fight through the train with at least 80% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

- Red Dead Redemption (Get 7 headshots while covering Sadie from the lighthouse, After Sadie is captured, reach Abigail and Sadie within 1 minute, Complete with at least 70% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

 

EPILOGUE

- The Wheel (Reach Pronghorn Ranch without dropping any supplies, Reclaim the wagon within 1 minute)

- Simple Pleasures (When milking, fill a bucket within 10 seconds, Complete within 5 minutes 15 seconds)

- Fatherhood For Beginners (Tire Out Jeremiah within 45 seconds, Feed Jeremiah a treat, Teach Jack to ride without his horse bucking him off, Win the race back to Pronghorn Ranch)

- Farming For Beginners (Fix the first section of fence in 1 minute 30 seconds, Avoid being hit by the bull)

- Old Habits (Defeat the Laramie without taking a hit, Defeat the Laramie within 25 seconds)

- Jim Milton Rides, Again (Get 10 kills while dual wielding sidearms, Get 15 headshots, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

- Fatherhood For Idiots (Kill all 3 enemies in Dead Eye, After the confrontation, return to Pronghorn Ranch within 1 minute 30 seconds)

- Motherhood (Complete within 1 minute 30 seconds)

-Landmark of Riches Treasure Map 4-

-Fast Travel to Emerald Ranch-

-Sell gold bars at Fence-

-Aberdeen Pig Farm, Arthur’s money-

? The Veteran IV

-Make Buell main horse- 

-Kill rabbit (Game Meat) and turkey (Plump Bird) for Herbalist 10-

-Pick Oregano, Creeping Thyme and Wild Mint, need 11 for Herbalist 10-

-Hunt Pelican (Exotic Bird) and Alligator (Big Game Meat) near Bayou for Herbalist 10-

-Buy Mature Venison, Tender Pork Loin, Prime Beef Joint at Saint Denis Butcher for Herbalist 10-

Hunting Requests 5 - Receive letter from Mrs Hobbs

-Train to Rhodes-

-Catch a Steelhead Trout (Succulent Fish) and breakdown near Flat Iron Lake for Herbalist 10-

-Kill a crab (Crustacean) and breakdown near Flat Iron Lake for Herbalist 10-

-Catch a Smallmouth Bass (Flaky Fish) and breakdown near Flat Iron Lake for Herbalist 10-

-Kill a Domestic Alpine Goats (Gristly Mutton) near Larned Sod for Herbalist 10-

Hunting Requests 5 - Perfect Crow Carcass, Twin Stack Pass

Hunting Requests 5 - Perfect Blue Jay Carcass, outside Horseshoe Overook

-MaryBeth outside Valentine train Station-

- Gainful Employment (After arriving in Strawberry, locate the bounty within 30 seconds, After mounting your horse, catch and hogtie the bounty within 1 minute 15 seconds)

Hunting Requests 5 - Perfect Cedar Waxwing Carcass, outside Blackwater

- The Landowning Classes

- Home of The Gentry (Complete within 2 minutes 30 seconds)

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- < Bounty Hunting - Elias Green >

<Find bones (8), herbs (6), Legendary Fishes (3), Otis Miller's Revolver, and Gang Hideout (2) around New Austin>

-Gang hideout Del Lobbo 1/2 Twin Rocks, New Austin-

-Otis Miller's Revolver-

Legendary Fish - Rock Bass

Herbalist 9 Pick one of each species of herb 43/43

Legendary Fish - Redfin Pickerel

Legendary Fish - Largemouth Bass

Herbalist 10 Season and cook all 11 types of meat

-Gang hideout Del Lobbo 2/2 Thieves Landing, New Austin-

- Bare Knuckle Friendships (After arriving in Saint Denis, find Charles within 1 minute 50 seconds, Kill all of Guido Martelli's men within 10 seconds)

-Riggs Station, Buy all Reinforced Equipment at Trapper-

-Train to Annesburg-

-Mrs Grimshaw Grave-

Hunting Requests 5 - Perfect Bat Carcass, Elysian pool

-Fast travel to Strawberry-

Hunting Requests 5 - Perfect Beaver Carcass, Owanjila Lake, don’t skin

Hunting Requests 5 - Post perfect carcasses to Mrs Hobbs

- Home Improvement For Beginners (Complete within 18 seconds)

- An Honest Day's Labors (Kill all of Langton's men during the horseback escape, After choosing your approach, escape with Shane Finley within 5 minutes, Complete with at least 70% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

- Receive Deborah and Jeremy Gill invitations-

- Fast Travel Valentine- 

- A Test of Faith II

- A Fisher of Fish II

- Receive Mrs Hobbs invitation- 

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- The Tool Box (Headshot all Skinner Brothers hiding up trees, Find Mr Wayne within 2 minutes 15 seconds, Complete using only sidearms, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

-A Better World, A New Friend I

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- A New Jerusalem (Hammer the nails in with 80% accuracy, Complete within 3 minutes 35 seconds)

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- A Quick Favor For An Old Friend (Force Cortez's men to flee from Rhodes within 30 seconds, Get 5 headshots while covering Sadie with a long scoped rifle, Get 4 hip fire kills, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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- Uncle's Bad Day (Get 5 headshots using the bow, After freeing Uncle, return to Beechers Hope within 3 minutes 10 seconds, Complete with at least 80% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

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- A Really Big Bastard (Shoot the bear 4 times as it charges, Headshot both the rival bounty hunters in Dead Eye, Complete within 7 minutes 15 seconds)

- Trying Again (Catch a fish, Complete within 5 minutes 20 seconds)

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- A New Future Imagined (Complete within 7 minutes 30 seconds)

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- American Venom (Help Sadie catch Cleet within 35 seconds, Headshot the sniper who shoots Charles, Complete with at least 85% accuracy, Complete the mission without taking any health items)

-A Better World, A New Friend II

-Arthur Grave-

 

https://youtu.be/POXfR0MzbdM?si=JfsOTM0WMnzk1sq8

Edited February 18 by sherlockh

[luckycanadian95]

On 2/17/2025 at 8:42 AM, JB1982 said:

My initial thoughts are that there's no wonder this is such a divisive chapter when it comes to picking an order and Polite Society is a big reason for it! 

Aha yeah it makes things difficult for sure 

 

On 2/17/2025 at 8:42 AM, JB1982 said:

There's just so many contradictory elements to this that work both for and against Polite Society's placement. Another reason I like to do Exit Pursued early on is because Hosea keeps calling out for your attention in camp whenever you get anywhere close to him, which feels like the game is pointing you to do this pretty quickly. But when you do Exit you automatically advance to the next day as part of that mission. And Exit is unlocked by doing any of the three initial missions on offer so it feels kind of like the game is saying that whatever mission you do first, once you return to camp you should do Exit next. One advantage that Polite Society has is that Uncle's not calling out for your attention and can be avoided.

l get what you mean, it really feels like we're encouraged to play Exit early in the chapter. If we assume that was the original plan when they wrote the game's script, and not just some last minute decision (for example to give new players access to special edition horses faster), I think the earliest it could make sense in the story would be after we've earned enough money for the American Standardbred, because that seems to be the expected horse for Arthur to buy. It's the one being cared for by the stable keeper when we arrive in Valentine, so it's the focus of that particular cutscene, and unlike the cheaper Morgan it's an actual improvement on our current horse.

 

On 2/17/2025 at 8:42 AM, JB1982 said:

But as you say, if you leave Polite Society too long then the girls have been cooped up in camp for longer than "two weeks" as Mary-Beth says. That line alone says that it should be one of the earliest missions. At what point do we class it as closer to the third week then the second week? I'm kind of tempted to say up to and including day four. In which case, let's say we do Who Is Not Without Sin as the first mission on the first day. That jumps time to the evening. Arthur then rides on out to Valentine that evening for Americans at Rest. Dutch sends Charles and Javier to Blackwater with Trelawny. Arthur follows them (maybe does a stranger mission to slow things down) and arrives in the morning (day two) for The First Shall Be Last (which explains the camp site they have set up overlooking Blackwater). Rescuing Sean takes up the majority of the day and time lapses into the evening as Arthur heads back to camp for Sean's party. The next morning (day three) Hosea's calling out and invites Arthur hunting triggering Exit Pursued. It's a long ride and again it's evening by the time they get there so they sleep to the next day (day four), hunt, and then return to camp together. Arthur spots Uncle asleep and gives him a kick to trigger Polite Society.

 

So that's your first four days which maybe fits into the "two weeks" frame, gives you full dialogue and lip synching, avoids the Thomas Downes bug, and allows you access to the stables to retrieve the horse. It doesn't solve the lack of money for a decent horse side of things though once the stables are unlocked. As for Exit setting up narratively Paying a Social Call and A Quiet Time, you time these for day five which fits roughly into the same time frame if Exit is day three and four as described.

 

I'm sure I am no doubt overlooking stuff here though! 

Nice this looks pretty good to me  Only thing is there might not be enough time for Americans at Rest in the evening after getting Swanson back to camp. The sun is already setting by that point and the gang is winding down for the night. Also, there are a lot of people including shopkeepers that end up watching Arthur and Tommy fight so that probably happens in the daytime.

If you still wanted to keep both missions on the same day we could just switch them around: Americans at Rest > Without Sin. So Arthur goes to see the boys in Valentine first and then checks on Swanson later that afternoon. I think overall Americans at Rest is actually the better opening mission for the chapter, but I kind of dislike having Without Sin as the second mission, because it gives us the tutorial for poker, so obviously we're meant to join the poker game rather than decline, but it's really hard to justify gambling from Arthur's perspective when he knows that Sean needs to be rescued.

The only way to solve the lack of money I'm pretty sure would be to add Javier's home robbery to your order. It unlocks after Sean's party so could be played in between First Shall be Last and Exit. This actually fits pretty well story wise because Javier mentions that he got his lead from a "couple of fellers" in town, and he was literally just in town a few days ago for Americans at Rest.

Edited February 20 by luckycanadian95

[luckycanadian95]

On 2/18/2025 at 5:41 AM, sherlockh said:

It's kind of. I try to insert Challenges and Collections while trying to follow a chronological mission order .

Honestly I've never tried a playthrough like that. Must be a nightmare trying to fit everything lol

[luckycanadian95]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:43 PM, jimmyoneshot said:

Ye possibly if you like that. Usually I prefer to do Exit Pursued before Polite Society so that there is a horse for Arthur to get back with and I also like to be able to buy a decent horse during Exit so I like to do Social Call before that.

 

I recently have been liking doing Without Sin on the first day too strangely enough as it feels a bit hectic for Arthur having 2 fights in one day ha.

 

For those reasons I've recently been doing Social Call pretty early in Chapter 2. Like this:-

Without Sin

-------------------------

Americans At Rest

-------------------------

Paying A Social Call

First Shall Be Last

(Sean's Party)

-------------------------

Exit Pursued

-------------------------

Polite Society

etc

 

My reasoning is that Exit Pursued is obviously the horse and hunting intro and Polite Society is the Honor and Shop intro so they should be done relatively soon but I like to have a horse for Polite Society and I like to have money for a decent horse.

 

Social Call actually feels pretty good the day after Americans At Rest because at the end of Americans At Rest Dutch sends just Charles and Javier to Blackwater and Bill says "what about me?" to which Dutch responds "Well exactly, what about you?" like he has something planned for Bill. Then the next day during Social Call we see that he has planned the Social Call O'Driscoll camp attack with Bill giving him throwing knives to give to Arthur etc. It also makes sene that Dutch would send just John and Bill too as they would be the only men left in camp at that point with Charles and Javier gone.

Just tried this order. I like doing Exit before Polite Society, not only because it unlocks the stables for Arthur to retrieve his horse, but also because it keeps the start of the chapter more organized. Arthur follows up on the initial leads that Hosea gave him - meeting the boys in Valentine and seeing what Swanson found at the train station - and then he checks in with Hosea again for the hunting trip, after which he goes looking for new leads with Uncle in town. So those conversations with Hosea essentially bookend the first part of the chapter.

 

I'm not sure about having Social Call this early though. It does seem like the conversation at the end of Americans at Rest is potentially setting that up as the next mission. But I don't really believe that Arthur would volunteer himself to lead the attack on Six Point Cabin when he knows that Sean needs to be rescued.

• Arthur - Okay then, partner. Why don't you take a few of us up there… right now. I got this, Dutch. Should be fun.

Also, I feel like Polite Society must happen before Social Call because of what Mary says in her letter. When we return to camp after finishing Social Call, we usually get approached by Grimshaw who says that "one of the girls saw that Mary Linton sniffing about". That could mean a few different things but we know from Mary's letter that she encountered the girls in Valentine specifically, which means that Polite Society has already happened since that mission was their first time visiting the town.

• Mary - I saw a couple of the girls, or whatever the polite term for them is, that ran with you and your associates in town and I heard tell of a man who sounded like you.

So when it comes to having enough money in Exit for a decent horse, I think we need to rely on playing Javier's home robbery instead. He mentions that he learned about Chez Porter from a "couple of fellers" in town, which fits pretty nicely after Sean's party as a kind of optional follow-up to Americans at Rest.

[ThijsVisch]

I took Psycho18's order and rearranged some things. Like cigarette cards and points of interest.

Here's chapter's 1 and 2.

Let me know what you think.

 

Chapter I:Colter
Outlaws From The West
Enter, Pursued By A Memory
Old Friends
-Create Save-
The Aftermath Of Genesis
(Master Hunter 1: 1/3)
Who The Hell Is Leviticus Cornwall?
(Weapons Expert 1: 1/3)
Eastward Bound

Chapter II: Horseshoe Overlook
Shave: 3/10
CR: Dutch (Pipe)
-Create Save-
POI: Brush Fire
Lockbox: 352
Master Hunter 1: Finished
Herbalist 1: Finished
CR: Mary-Beth (Fountain Pen)
Explore: Camp
CR: Hosea (Crime Novel)
Who Is Not Without Sin
(Gambler 1: Finished)
Camp: Sleep

Polite Society, Valentine Style
Camp: Stew
Encounter: Snakebite
? Smoking And Other Hobbies
? All That Glitters
(Explorer 1)
Encounter: Sharpshooter
(Sharpshooter 1: Finished)
Herbalist 2: 1/4 (Raspberry)
Treasure: Jack Hall Gang 2
(Explorer 2)
Camp: Sleep

Card: 001/Frank Heck
Buy: Newspaper (VT)
Buy: Varmint Rifle (VT)
* Good, Honest, Snake Oil
SC: Thomas Downes
Visit: Store (VT)
Americans At Rest
Card: 117/Cylinder Phonograph
? The Noblest Of Men And A Woman
See: Show (VT)
Card: 069/Nettie Palmer
Card: 067/Isadore Reid
Hotel: Bath/Sleep (VT)

Card: 136/Leviticus Cornwall
EA: Castor's Ridge
EA: Appleseed Timber
The First Shall Be The Last
(Weapons Expert 1: 2/3)
Camp: Party/Sleep Noon

Box: $5/Items
Money Lending And Other Sins
Card: 123/Andalusian
$ Mr. Wróbel
Herbalist 2: 2/4 (Blackberry)
Box: Debt
Ledger: Medicine
Money Lending And Other Sins II
Ledger: Food
Camp: Sleep

EA: Castor's Ridge 2
SC: Blind Man Cassidy
$ Lilly Millet
$ Chick Matthews
POI: Register Rock
Box: Debts
SC: Jon
Hotel: Sleep (VT)

We Loved Once And True
Money Lending And Other Sins III
Paying A Social Call
(Weapons Expert 1: Finished)
(Card: 002/Otis Miller Boys)
Discover: Doctor Backroom
? A Test Of Faith
Item: Dutch's Speech Notes
A Quiet Time
Jail: Sleep (VT)

Murder Scene: Valentine
Exit, Pursued By A Bruised Ego
(Horseman 1: 1/5)

CR: Pearson (Rabbit)
Master Hunter 2: Finished
Horseman 1: Finished
Give: Pearson (Rabbit)
Master Hunter 3: Started
Horseman 2: Finished
Camp: Sleep

? To The Ends Of The Earth
The Spines Of America
(Card: 037/Leila Stetson)
Buy: Springfield Rifle (VT)
Card: 033/Valentine
Collect: Hunting Request
CR: Pearson (Compass)
Camp: Sleep

CA: Charles (Hunting)
Donate: Bison Pelt
Craft: Small Game Arrows
Hunting Request:
- Squirrel
- Rabbit
Mail: Send (VT)
Camp: Sleep

EA: Castor's Ridge 3a
EA: Appleseed Timber 2
Buy: Lumber
EA: Castor's Ridge 3b
CA: Lenny (FFF)
Box: $5/Items
Ledger: Medicine 2×/Food/Ammo
Camp: Sleep

? Arcadia For Amateurs
? Geology For Beginners
Legendary: Whitetail Buck
Sell: Buck Carcass (BV)
Herbalist 2: 3/4 (Winterberry)
Search: Vetter's Echo
Card: 073/Black Widow Spider
Collect: Pipe
Card: 059/Blazing Star
Hotel: Sleep (SB)

Card: 014/Elsie Rose
Blessed Are The Meek
Encounter: Treasure Hunter
Treasure: High Stakes 2
(Explorer 3)
Robbery: Watson's Cabin
(Weapon: Semi-Auto Shotgun)
Legendary: Big Horn Ram
Sell: Ram Carcass (RS)
Give: Dutch (Pipe)
Camp: Sleep

We Loved Once And True II
Card: 022/Charles Châtenay
-Create Save-
We Loved Once And True III
Bandit 1: Finished
Box: $5/Items
Ledger: Food/Ammo/Restock
Camp: Sleep

Pouring Forth Oil I-II
Card: 099/Pugilist
Fence: $50/Buck Trinket (ER)
EA: Central Railroad
Bandit 2: Finished
Pouring Forth Oil III
Camp: Sleep Noon

EA: Castor's Ridge 4
CA: Javier (Home Robbery)
Card: 003/Jack Hall Gang
Weapon: Pump Action Shotgun
Tent: Sleep

Search: Planter's Baun Cabin
Card: 106/Skater
POI: Defaced Grave
Treasure: High Stakes 3
(Explorer 4)
POI: Mammoth
Item: Hawk Talon Trinket
Lockbox: 312
Search: Dormin Crest Cabin
Search: Snowfield Shack
Tent: Sleep

Carving: 501
Carving: 502
Treasure: Jack Hall Gang 3
(Explorer 5)
Tent: Sleep

Treasure: Jack Hall Gang 4
(Explorer 6)
Search: Hani's Bethel
Card: 015/W.G. Hoyt
Lockbox: 346
Fence: Gold Bars/$25 (ER)
POI: Oil Derrick
Camp: Sleep

EA: Appleseed Timber 3
An American Pastoral Scene
Mail: Receive (WS)
? Arcadia For Amateurs II
Robbery: Watson's Cabin 2
(Weapons Expert 2: Finished)
Camp: Sleep

Box: $5/Items
Ledger: Ammo
Buy: Volcanic Pistol/Equipment (VT)
A Fisher Of Men
Survivalist 1: Finished
Search: Limpany
Lockbox: 330
Survivalist 2: Finished
Camp: Sleep

Hunting Request:
- Rat
- Woodpecker
- Cardinal
Mail: Send (RS)
Pouring Forth Oil IV

POI: Trading Post
Survivalist 3: Finished
Fence: $25/Items/Ram Trinket (ER)
Card: 047/Fay Delaro
The Sheep And The Goats
(Escape to Cattail Pond)
Mail: Bounty (WS)
Card: 126/Ardennes
Tent: Sleep

A Strange Kindness

[luckycanadian95]

12 hours ago, ThijsVisch said:

I took Psycho18's order and rearranged some things. Like cigarette cards and points of interest.

Here's chapter's 1 and 2.

Let me know what you think.

 

Chapter I:Colter
Outlaws From The West
Enter, Pursued By A Memory
Old Friends
-Create Save-
The Aftermath Of Genesis
(Master Hunter 1: 1/3)
Who The Hell Is Leviticus Cornwall?
(Weapons Expert 1: 1/3)
Eastward Bound

Chapter II: Horseshoe Overlook
Shave: 3/10
CR: Dutch (Pipe)
-Create Save-
POI: Brush Fire
Lockbox: 352
Master Hunter 1: Finished
Herbalist 1: Finished
CR: Mary-Beth (Fountain Pen)
Explore: Camp
CR: Hosea (Crime Novel)
Who Is Not Without Sin
(Gambler 1: Finished)
Camp: Sleep

Polite Society, Valentine Style
Camp: Stew
Encounter: Snakebite
? Smoking And Other Hobbies
? All That Glitters
(Explorer 1)
Encounter: Sharpshooter
(Sharpshooter 1: Finished)
Herbalist 2: 1/4 (Raspberry)
Treasure: Jack Hall Gang 2
(Explorer 2)
Camp: Sleep

Card: 001/Frank Heck
Buy: Newspaper (VT)
Buy: Varmint Rifle (VT)
* Good, Honest, Snake Oil
SC: Thomas Downes
Visit: Store (VT)
Americans At Rest
Card: 117/Cylinder Phonograph
? The Noblest Of Men And A Woman
See: Show (VT)
Card: 069/Nettie Palmer
Card: 067/Isadore Reid
Hotel: Bath/Sleep (VT)

Card: 136/Leviticus Cornwall
EA: Castor's Ridge
EA: Appleseed Timber
The First Shall Be The Last
(Weapons Expert 1: 2/3)
Camp: Party/Sleep Noon

Box: $5/Items
Money Lending And Other Sins
Card: 123/Andalusian
$ Mr. Wróbel
Herbalist 2: 2/4 (Blackberry)
Box: Debt
Ledger: Medicine
Money Lending And Other Sins II
Ledger: Food
Camp: Sleep

EA: Castor's Ridge 2
SC: Blind Man Cassidy
$ Lilly Millet
$ Chick Matthews
POI: Register Rock
Box: Debts
SC: Jon
Hotel: Sleep (VT)

We Loved Once And True
Money Lending And Other Sins III
Paying A Social Call
(Weapons Expert 1: Finished)
(Card: 002/Otis Miller Boys)
Discover: Doctor Backroom
? A Test Of Faith
Item: Dutch's Speech Notes
A Quiet Time
Jail: Sleep (VT)

Murder Scene: Valentine
Exit, Pursued By A Bruised Ego
(Horseman 1: 1/5)

CR: Pearson (Rabbit)
Master Hunter 2: Finished
Horseman 1: Finished
Give: Pearson (Rabbit)
Master Hunter 3: Started
Horseman 2: Finished
Camp: Sleep

? To The Ends Of The Earth
The Spines Of America
(Card: 037/Leila Stetson)
Buy: Springfield Rifle (VT)
Card: 033/Valentine
Collect: Hunting Request
CR: Pearson (Compass)
Camp: Sleep

CA: Charles (Hunting)
Donate: Bison Pelt
Craft: Small Game Arrows
Hunting Request:
- Squirrel
- Rabbit
Mail: Send (VT)
Camp: Sleep

EA: Castor's Ridge 3a
EA: Appleseed Timber 2
Buy: Lumber
EA: Castor's Ridge 3b
CA: Lenny (FFF)
Box: $5/Items
Ledger: Medicine 2×/Food/Ammo
Camp: Sleep

? Arcadia For Amateurs
? Geology For Beginners
Legendary: Whitetail Buck
Sell: Buck Carcass (BV)
Herbalist 2: 3/4 (Winterberry)
Search: Vetter's Echo
Card: 073/Black Widow Spider
Collect: Pipe
Card: 059/Blazing Star
Hotel: Sleep (SB)

Card: 014/Elsie Rose
Blessed Are The Meek
Encounter: Treasure Hunter
Treasure: High Stakes 2
(Explorer 3)
Robbery: Watson's Cabin
(Weapon: Semi-Auto Shotgun)
Legendary: Big Horn Ram
Sell: Ram Carcass (RS)
Give: Dutch (Pipe)
Camp: Sleep

We Loved Once And True II
Card: 022/Charles Châtenay
-Create Save-
We Loved Once And True III
Bandit 1: Finished
Box: $5/Items
Ledger: Food/Ammo/Restock
Camp: Sleep

Pouring Forth Oil I-II
Card: 099/Pugilist
Fence: $50/Buck Trinket (ER)
EA: Central Railroad
Bandit 2: Finished
Pouring Forth Oil III
Camp: Sleep Noon

EA: Castor's Ridge 4
CA: Javier (Home Robbery)
Card: 003/Jack Hall Gang
Weapon: Pump Action Shotgun
Tent: Sleep

Search: Planter's Baun Cabin
Card: 106/Skater
POI: Defaced Grave
Treasure: High Stakes 3
(Explorer 4)
POI: Mammoth
Item: Hawk Talon Trinket
Lockbox: 312
Search: Dormin Crest Cabin
Search: Snowfield Shack
Tent: Sleep

Carving: 501
Carving: 502
Treasure: Jack Hall Gang 3
(Explorer 5)
Tent: Sleep

Treasure: Jack Hall Gang 4
(Explorer 6)
Search: Hani's Bethel
Card: 015/W.G. Hoyt
Lockbox: 346
Fence: Gold Bars/$25 (ER)
POI: Oil Derrick
Camp: Sleep

EA: Appleseed Timber 3
An American Pastoral Scene
Mail: Receive (WS)
? Arcadia For Amateurs II
Robbery: Watson's Cabin 2
(Weapons Expert 2: Finished)
Camp: Sleep

Box: $5/Items
Ledger: Ammo
Buy: Volcanic Pistol/Equipment (VT)
A Fisher Of Men
Survivalist 1: Finished
Search: Limpany
Lockbox: 330
Survivalist 2: Finished
Camp: Sleep

Hunting Request:
- Rat
- Woodpecker
- Cardinal
Mail: Send (RS)
Pouring Forth Oil IV

POI: Trading Post
Survivalist 3: Finished
Fence: $25/Items/Ram Trinket (ER)
Card: 047/Fay Delaro
The Sheep And The Goats
(Escape to Cattail Pond)
Mail: Bounty (WS)
Card: 126/Ardennes
Tent: Sleep

A Strange Kindness

The only serious problem I found is that you moved We Loved Once And True earlier than Paying a Social Call, which is impossible because Kieran's mission is one of the conditions for unlocking Mary's letter.

 

I'd say that it's probably not very realistic to have such a long gap between Quiet Time and Blessed are the Meek, and especially unrealistic to be doing missions with Hosea during that gap. I know this comment is more for @Psycho18 since he included that in his original order. But my reasoning is that Lenny said "they got Micah in the sheriff’s in Strawberry… and there’s talk of hanging him". This makes the rescue mission fairly urgent because too much delay could result in Micah being executed. It's similar to how we shouldn't postpone The First Shall be Last for too long after Americans at Rest because time is of the essence to rescue Sean from the bounty hunters. It's true that Arthur strongly dislikes Micah and would be completely fine leaving him to his fate, but he was given a direct order from Dutch to bring Lenny into Valentine and then to rescue Micah, and I doubt that Arthur would disobey him. Even if you think that he might, it's even less likely in my opinion that Hosea would be okay with leaving Micah in danger, so I really don't buy that Hosea would bring Arthur on a recreational hunting trip as well as a lighthearted stage coach robbery during this time.

[luckycanadian95]

Just noticed something interesting. I got to the end of chapter two and was reading the chapter descriptions under Progress > Story. The description for Horseshoe Overlook seemed much shorter than I remembered, and sure enough when I looked online there was a whole second paragraph that never unlocked for me. Does anyone know the condition for getting that second paragraph to show up? I assume it has something to do with the mission order.

 

For context here is the full description:

 

After a break in the weather, the gang have headed down from the mountains, and are now hiding at Horseshoe Overlook.

 

They are outside Valentine, a muddy livestock town, and are figuring out their next moves while re-gathering their strength. Dutch is trying to figure out a new plan for the gang, Hosea is finding places to rob, while Karen and the girls are bored after being stuck in the mountains. Some old friends reappear.

 

EDIT: Nevermind about this  The second paragraph is always there. You just need to press a key/button to view the rest of the description on certain screens.

Edited February 28 by luckycanadian95

[luckycanadian95]

I've been giving chapter two more thought. If we agree for now that Polite Society is not the ideal opening mission (given all the benefits of playing it later) that leaves either Americans at Rest or Without Sin.

 

Both of these missions could maybe work as a chapter introduction but I think we'd all agree that WS feels more like a random side mission. It's completely standalone with minimal impact on the larger narrative. The only member of the gang that it features is Swanson who is really a secondary character. And it mostly takes place at Flatneck Station which is an unremarkable location that we never hear about in the main story again.

 

AAR on the other hand sets a number of storylines in motion like rescuing Sean from the bounty hunters and robbing that homestead with Javier, not to mention introducing Thomas Downes who in hindsight is one of the most pivotal characters in the game. It seems almost poetic for him to be featured in the opening mission. There are several important gang members that make an appearance like Bill, Charles, Javier and Dutch. And the entire mission takes place in Valentine which is the most frequented location of the chapter aside from camp.

 

There is some other evidence as well that AAR might be the intended first mission:

• Both AAR and WS have a fist fight but AAR is the mission with a tutorial for hand-to-hand combat.
• Hosea implies during Eastward Bound that our next destination in the story will be Valentine: "There is a town a little way down the track name of Valentine... live stock town. All mud and morons if I remember right. That seems a decent place to start."
• The very first lead that Hosea gives to Arthur in chapter two is AAR which seems like it could be significant. He talks about the boys in Valentine and then brings up Swanson: "There's a bunch of boys already in Valentine... Bill, Charles and Javier. And Swanson found something… down at the train station by the lake apparently." 

So all things considered I would argue that AAR is a much stronger opening mission than WS. That being said I can definitely understand why people might still prefer to begin with WS because it really doesn't seem to fit nicely anywhere else in the chapter… I'll probably make another post about that when I have time.
 

Edited March 7 by luckycanadian95

[Dan_1983]

Polite Society does seem like the introduction to Valentine. The only reason some of us are hung up about doing it first is because we have no horse post mission. Doesn't it feel weird to go into town and have a bar fight in AAR and then have the town introduced in PSVS?

 

I actually believe that Rockstar intended for us to do Polite Society followed by Americans at Rest, which would explain why Arthur is left in town with no horse as AAR is only a short walk around the corner at the saloon.

[luckycanadian95]

On 3/9/2025 at 12:57 PM, Dan_1983 said:

Polite Society does seem like the introduction to Valentine. The only reason some of us are hung up about doing it first is because we have no horse post mission. Doesn't it feel weird to go into town and have a bar fight in AAR and then have the town introduced in PSVS?

I think PSVS is definitely the mission where Arthur really gets to know the town but not necessarily his first visit. He likely doesn't explore much during AAR so it could still make sense for Uncle to show him around later.

 

On 3/9/2025 at 12:57 PM, Dan_1983 said:

I actually believe that Rockstar intended for us to do Polite Society followed by Americans at Rest, which would explain why Arthur is left in town with no horse as AAR is only a short walk around the corner at the saloon.

Maybe, but you'd still be left in town without your horse after both missions so I feel like we're just delaying the problem rather than solving or explaining it.

 

One issue I've noticed with doing PSVS and then AAR on the same day is that when you return the borrowed horse, Thomas Downes will have disappeared from Valentine, even though he was just there minutes ago during PSVS. Given that he stops the fight between Arthur and Tommy I'm pretty much certain that he's supposed to be at his booth when we start AAR, so the fact that he vanishes makes me think this is probably not the intended order.

 

Another potential issue is that Bill, Charles and Javier are nowhere to be seen during PSVS even though according to Hosea they should already be in town. So that might indicate these missions happen on separate days.

 

Then as we've mentioned there's a few reasons to think AAR came before PSVS in the original script. The fact that doing AAR first gets you the extended or "complete" dialogue in PSVS, where instead of mostly empty silence in the general store there's a whole conversation between Arthur and the shopkeeper about the saloon fight. Also the fact that when Roger Clark did the motion capture for PSVS he clearly voiced the line "Sure, you'll see… real civilized" in the opening cutscene, but if you do PSVS first that gets dubbed over with "Okay then… let's go" which doesn't match his original lip movements. And finally I would argue it's a bit strange from a narrative perspective for Arthur to go looking for new leads with Uncle when Hosea has already given him things to investigate.

 

On 2/13/2025 at 12:55 PM, JB1982 said:

And I suppose if you return the horse to Valentine during the mission, you can immediately walk to the saloon to start Americans at Rest. Does your horse appear automatically at the end of that mission? That could also solve that issue.

I tried this recently and my horse didn't automatically spawn after AAR. It just stayed wherever I had left it, either back at camp or somewhere in town, unless my horse was near the saloon on the main street, in which case the game moved it over to the hitching post by the stables to make room for the fight with Tommy.

[LeviGudmundsson]

I think sadly we just have to accept that the introductory mission to Chapter II is a goof. Clearly either 'Polite Society, Valentine Style' or 'Americans at Rest' were meant as the introductory mission at some point, and further progression into development of the game changed the two around, whichever way. We have already been around the notion of lip-syncing, so there really is nothing to be gained going back down that line of thought.

 

Beginning the chapter with 'Polite Society...' leaves us with the problem of where to place 'Who Is Not Without Sin', because naturally, for a casual player at least, 'Polite Society...' would be followed up with 'Americans...' and it would throw the whole thing out of whack. There is absolutely no way Arthur would leave Valentine after 'Polite Society...' without visiting the saloon. That would leave us with the difficult choice of when to start '...Without Sin'. I've seen people in this thread argue that Arthur would return to camp before heading out to rescue Sean, completing '...Without Sin' in between. The fact that '...Without Sin' ends at 5pm (or at least sometime in the early evening) throws me off this notion. I, personally, can't imagine Arthur setting off for a cross-state ride just before nightfall (and after going through all that with Swanson).

 

My two cents is that '...Without Sin' serves a light-hearted introduction to the surrounding area. Following it up with 'Americans...' (the following day) gives us a true taste of Valentine and The Heartlands as a whole. That, and it provides us with an immediate story-driven lead in regards to the whereabouts of Sean.

 

Narratively speaking, I believe both these missions serve a different purpose: 'Americans...' is a vehicle to drive us towards Sean (and, as a result, continuing on from the prologue), while 'Polite Society...' is pushing home the notion that the gang cannot keep getting away with how they are acting. There are multiple reminders throughout the latter for this, of which the chase with Jimmy Brooks is the climax.

 

I feel as though immediately dealing with the idea of 'rescuing' gang members (don't forget John in the prologue) such as Swanson (in '...Without Sin') and eventually Sean (in 'The First Shall Be the Last') drives home the narrative of the gang getting back together, and back on their feet so to speak, only for it to be undermined by what occurs in 'Polite Society...', solidifies the idea that initial order of missions probably should be a combination of 'Who Is Not Without Sin' and 'Americans...' followed by 'The First...', and then 'Polite Society...' after all.

Edited March 12 by LeviGudmundsson

[Dan_1983]

On 3/12/2025 at 2:35 AM, luckycanadian95 said:

I think PSVS is definitely the mission where Arthur really gets to know the town but not necessarily his first visit. He likely doesn't explore much during AAR so it could still make sense for Uncle to show him around later.

 

Maybe, but you'd still be left in town without your horse after both missions so I feel like we're just delaying the problem rather than solving or explaining it.

 

One issue I've noticed with doing PSVS and then AAR on the same day is that when you return the borrowed horse, Thomas Downes will have disappeared from Valentine, even though he was just there minutes ago during PSVS. Given that he stops the fight between Arthur and Tommy I'm pretty much certain that he's supposed to be at his booth when we start AAR, so the fact that he vanishes makes me think this is probably not the intended order.

 

Another potential issue is that Bill, Charles and Javier are nowhere to be seen during PSVS even though according to Hosea they should already be in town. So that might indicate these missions happen on separate days.

 

Then as we've mentioned there's a few reasons to think AAR came before PSVS in the original script. The fact that doing AAR first gets you the extended or "complete" dialogue in PSVS, where instead of mostly empty silence in the general store there's a whole conversation between Arthur and the shopkeeper about the saloon fight. Also the fact that when Roger Clark did the motion capture for PSVS he clearly voiced the line "Sure, you'll see… real civilized" in the opening cutscene, but if you do PSVS first that gets dubbed over with "Okay then… let's go" which doesn't match his original lip movements. And finally I would argue it's a bit strange from a narrative perspective for Arthur to go looking for new leads with Uncle when Hosea has already given him things to investigate.

 

I tried this recently and my horse didn't automatically spawn after AAR. It just stayed wherever I had left it, either back at camp or somewhere in town, unless my horse was near the saloon on the main street, in which case the game moved it over to the hitching post by the stables to make room for the fight with Tommy.

You make great points. I do actually believe there was an intended original order for the missions to go in. But for replay value, Rockstar changed this for players to play the game in any order they see fit.

 

To be honest I have never liked PSVS as a first mission in Valentine as I do like the stables to be unlocked so I can collect my horse and then do Good Honest Snake Oil afterwards as Arthur is following on from Uncle's advice to check out bounties.

 

My chapter 2 start usually looks something like this.

 

Who is Not Without Sin

 

Americans at Rest

 

The First Shall Be the Last

 

Exit Pursued by A Bruised Ego - return to camp with Hosea. 

 

Polite Society Valentine Style

Good Honest Snake Oil

 

 

 

 

 

 

[luckycanadian95]

On 3/12/2025 at 12:54 AM, LeviGudmundsson said:

I think sadly we just have to accept that the introductory mission to Chapter II is a goof. Clearly either 'Polite Society, Valentine Style' or 'Americans at Rest' were meant as the introductory mission at some point, and further progression into development of the game changed the two around, whichever way. We have already been around the notion of lip-syncing, so there really is nothing to be gained going back down that line of thought.

 

Beginning the chapter with 'Polite Society...' leaves us with the problem of where to place 'Who Is Not Without Sin', because naturally, for a casual player at least, 'Polite Society...' would be followed up with 'Americans...' and it would throw the whole thing out of whack. There is absolutely no way Arthur would leave Valentine after 'Polite Society...' without visiting the saloon. That would leave us with the difficult choice of when to start '...Without Sin'. I've seen people in this thread argue that Arthur would return to camp before heading out to rescue Sean, completing '...Without Sin' in between. The fact that '...Without Sin' ends at 5pm (or at least sometime in the early evening) throws me off this notion. I, personally, can't imagine Arthur setting off for a cross-state ride just before nightfall (and after going through all that with Swanson).

 

My two cents is that '...Without Sin' serves a light-hearted introduction to the surrounding area. Following it up with 'Americans...' (the following day) gives us a true taste of Valentine and The Heartlands as a whole. That, and it provides us with an immediate story-driven lead in regards to the whereabouts of Sean.

 

Narratively speaking, I believe both these missions serve a different purpose: 'Americans...' is a vehicle to drive us towards Sean (and, as a result, continuing on from the prologue), while 'Polite Society...' is pushing home the notion that the gang cannot keep getting away with how they are acting. There are multiple reminders throughout the latter for this, of which the chase with Jimmy Brooks is the climax.

 

I feel as though immediately dealing with the idea of 'rescuing' gang members (don't forget John in the prologue) such as Swanson (in '...Without Sin') and eventually Sean (in 'The First Shall Be the Last') drives home the narrative of the gang getting back together, and back on their feet so to speak, only for it to be undermined by what occurs in 'Polite Society...', solidifies the idea that initial order of missions probably should be a combination of 'Who Is Not Without Sin' and 'Americans...' followed by 'The First...', and then 'Polite Society...' after all.

Great post, I like your interpretation. It makes me wish that Lenny and Micah stuck around a bit longer at the start of the chapter so that literally everyone in the gang could be there for Sean's party, just to really drive home that theme of the gang reuniting. Then maybe the next day could be when they leave for the scouting trip out west. It's actually kind of weird how quickly they disappear from camp in my opinion but I understand it's because players could theoretically unlock Quiet Time in a day or two.

 

22 hours ago, Dan_1983 said:

You make great points. I do actually believe there was an intended original order for the missions to go in. But for replay value, Rockstar changed this for players to play the game in any order they see fit.

 

To be honest I have never liked PSVS as a first mission in Valentine as I do like the stables to be unlocked so I can collect my horse and then do Good Honest Snake Oil afterwards as Arthur is following on from Uncle's advice to check out bounties.

 

My chapter 2 start usually looks something like this.

 

Who is Not Without Sin

 

Americans at Rest

 

The First Shall Be the Last

 

Exit Pursued by A Bruised Ego - return to camp with Hosea. 

 

Polite Society Valentine Style

Good Honest Snake Oil

I really enjoy that order personally. I'm pretty sure you gave me the idea for doing Exit before Polite Society in the first place lol. And despite everything I said earlier about Americans At Rest I kind of agree that Without Sin is the best opening mission all things considered. Like @LeviGudmundsson said it doesn't fit very well as the second mission right before we head to Blackwater, and it should likely be done before we rescue Sean because otherwise the reverend will abruptly spawn into camp during the party, rather than stumble in with some kind of animation which you would expect if this was really the intended order. Plus Swanson has dialogue at the party which I believe is referencing the events of his mission, for example at the start of the night he says "there is little joy left in drinking for me" and then later when he gets drunk he says "this keeps happening…"

 

I used to think there was no way R* intended for a mission like Without Sin to be a chapter opener since none of the other chapters start with that kind of mission. But in a way chapter two has the unique responsibility of introducing the open world, so my theory is that Without Sin might have been designed to familiarize players with some basic free roam mechanics, given that it has tutorials for dealing with eyewitnesses and interacting with other people in the world. That last one especially makes sense to learn right away because once you get to Valentine the game seems to assume you know this already.

Edited March 15 by luckycanadian95

[Dan_1983]

7 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Great post, I like your interpretation. It makes me wish that Lenny and Micah stuck around a bit longer at the start of the chapter so that literally everyone in the gang could be there for Sean's party, just to really drive home that theme of the gang reuniting. Then maybe the next day could be when they leave for the scouting trip out west. It's actually kind of weird how quickly they disappear from camp in my opinion but I understand it's because players could theoretically unlock Quiet Time in a day or two.

 

I really enjoy that order personally. I'm pretty sure you gave me the idea for doing Exit before Polite Society in the first place lol. And despite everything I said earlier about Americans At Rest I kind of agree that Without Sin is the best opening mission all things considered. Like @LeviGudmundsson said it doesn't fit very well as the second mission right before we head to Blackwater, and it should likely be done before we rescue Sean because otherwise the reverend will abruptly spawn into camp during the party, rather than stumble in with some kind of animation which you would expect if this was really the intended order. Plus Swanson has dialogue at the party which I believe is referencing the events of his mission, for example at the start of the night he says "there is little joy left in drinking for me" and then later when he gets drunk he says "this keeps happening…"

 

I used to think there was no way R* intended for a mission like Without Sin to be a chapter opener since none of the other chapters start with that kind of mission. But in a way chapter two has the unique responsibility of introducing the open world, so my theory is that Without Sin might have been designed to familiarize players with some basic free roam mechanics, given that it has tutorials for dealing with eyewitnesses and interacting with other people in the world. That last one especially makes sense to learn right away because once you get to Valentine the game seems to assume you know this already.

In doing Who is Not Without Sin on the first day, I can hunt nearby camp for food because the camp's food icon is red and collect a few nearby items I like such as the gold bar in Limpany, which I keep and sell at a fence or if I am feeling generous, I will donate it to camp funds. I got the idea on doing Who is Not Without Sin on the first day from the OP.

 

Polite Society used to be my main Chapter 2 starting mission in my early playthroughs, because it's there in camp when you start. I would then load the game so my horse appears and do Good Honest Snake Oil and then finish the day off with Americans at Rest. The problem with this was where to fit in Who Is Not Without Sin because once you get the lead on Sean, that would be Arthur's first priority. 

 

So the order would look like this.

 

Polite Society Valentine Style

Good Honest Snake Oil

Americans at Rest

 

Who is Not Without Sin

 

The First Shall Be the Last.

 

Exit Pursued By A Bruised Ego.

[LeviGudmundsson]

On 3/14/2025 at 3:13 AM, Dan_1983 said:

You make great points. I do actually believe there was an intended original order for the missions to go in. But for replay value, Rockstar changed this for players to play the game in any order they see fit.

 

To be honest I have never liked PSVS as a first mission in Valentine as I do like the stables to be unlocked so I can collect my horse and then do Good Honest Snake Oil afterwards as Arthur is following on from Uncle's advice to check out bounties.

 

My chapter 2 start usually looks something like this.

 

Who is Not Without Sin

 

Americans at Rest

 

The First Shall Be the Last

 

Exit Pursued by A Bruised Ego - return to camp with Hosea. 

 

Polite Society Valentine Style

Good Honest Snake Oil

 

 

 

 

 

 

Narratively speaking, I don't like the idea of Arthur returning back from a multiple day journey only to wake up and head out on another with Hosea (especially after spending the entire night drinking upon Sean's return). I feel as though Arthur, probably hungover from Sean's party, would choose to pick on an easy target - Uncle - and that would lead us into 'Polite Society, Valentine Style'. 

 

Personally, I consider the horse issue post-'Polite Society...' just to be an error. It is disappointing that Rockstar didn't think to introduce a tutorial for hitching a ride on a wagon that at least takes you near to camp. That is what I usually do.

 

I feel as though 'Polite Society...' would naturally be followed up by 'Money Lending and Other Sins' due to the fact that Dutch (almost always) comes to you in camp and requests your help. The latter gives us a good contrast to the former: consider Arthur punching someone in the face to protect Karen versus punching someone (Cooper, Wróbel) in the face to collect debt money. 

 

While 'Polite Society...' and 'Money Lending...' are supposed to drive home the greyness of morality, following it up with 'Exit, Pursued by a Bruised Ego' gives us a break from that monotony. 'Exit...' provides us with further insight into both Hosea and Arthur's characters (along with their grievances) and serves as a break from Chapter II, as the mission title explicitly suggests.

 

On 3/14/2025 at 9:44 PM, luckycanadian95 said:

Great post, I like your interpretation. It makes me wish that Lenny and Micah stuck around a bit longer at the start of the chapter so that literally everyone in the gang could be there for Sean's party, just to really drive home that theme of the gang reuniting. Then maybe the next day could be when they leave for the scouting trip out west. It's actually kind of weird how quickly they disappear from camp in my opinion but I understand it's because players could theoretically unlock Quiet Time in a day or two.

It is a shame. I'm not sure why they didn't stick with / put more emphasis on Lenny and Micah scouting ahead during 'Eastward Bound' - they are sent ahead after all (to what extent, who knows). Once again I think it's sadly another goof. They could have easily been 'sent out' after Sean's party, locking it behind two further preliminary missions or so.

Edited March 15 by LeviGudmundsson

[luckycanadian95]

On 3/14/2025 at 11:30 PM, Dan_1983 said:

In doing Who is Not Without Sin on the first day, I can hunt nearby camp for food because the camp's food icon is red and collect a few nearby items I like such as the gold bar in Limpany, which I keep and sell at a fence or if I am feeling generous, I will donate it to camp funds. I got the idea on doing Who is Not Without Sin on the first day from the OP.

 

Polite Society used to be my main Chapter 2 starting mission in my early playthroughs, because it's there in camp when you start. I would then load the game so my horse appears and do Good Honest Snake Oil and then finish the day off with Americans at Rest. The problem with this was where to fit in Who Is Not Without Sin because once you get the lead on Sean, that would be Arthur's first priority. 

 

So the order would look like this.

 

Polite Society Valentine Style

Good Honest Snake Oil

Americans at Rest

 

Who is Not Without Sin

 

The First Shall Be the Last.

 

Exit Pursued By A Bruised Ego.

I don't take this route myself but if you travel past Flatneck Station on your way to Blackwater, you might headcanon that Arthur decides to look for Swanson out of concern when he passes through, and then by the time he gets him back to camp the day is essentially over so he stays there for the night and rides to Blackwater in the morning.

 

My first day is pretty similar to yours. I spend time at camp and then go exploring down by the river, where I meet the herbalist gathering tobacco. In my opinion he should be encountered right away because his dialogue feels like a natural extension of the tutorials we got from Hosea during Eastward Bound. Also because when you first approach any plant in the open world you get a help message about using dead eye to find more of them, which I think makes sense to get alongside the other messages during the herbalist encounter.

 

Before returning to camp I'll hunt a deer (if any can be found) and investigate the brush fire. Sometimes I'll visit Limpany like you but personally a gold bar seems like a huge reward for day one  If I did manage to find a deer I'll bring that to Pearson for the trapper reminder, after which Grimshaw usually approaches to say that Micah and Lenny have gone scouting, then I'll examine Swanson's bible to give Arthur another reason to worry about him, and I'll head out down the main road so Arthur meets the paleontologist on his way to the train station.

 

On 3/15/2025 at 12:19 AM, LeviGudmundsson said:

Narratively speaking, I don't like the idea of Arthur returning back from a multiple day journey only to wake up and head out on another with Hosea (especially after spending the entire night drinking upon Sean's return). I feel as though Arthur, probably hungover from Sean's party, would choose to pick on an easy target - Uncle - and that would lead us into 'Polite Society, Valentine Style'. 

 

Personally, I consider the horse issue post-'Polite Society...' just to be an error. It is disappointing that Rockstar didn't think to introduce a tutorial for hitching a ride on a wagon that at least takes you near to camp. That is what I usually do.

 

I feel as though 'Polite Society...' would naturally be followed up by 'Money Lending and Other Sins' due to the fact that Dutch (almost always) comes to you in camp and requests your help. The latter gives us a good contrast to the former: consider Arthur punching someone in the face to protect Karen versus punching someone (Cooper, Wróbel) in the face to collect debt money. 

 

While 'Polite Society...' and 'Money Lending...' are supposed to drive home the greyness of morality, following it up with 'Exit, Pursued by a Bruised Ego' gives us a break from that monotony. 'Exit...' provides us with further insight into both Hosea and Arthur's characters (along with their grievances) and serves as a break from Chapter II, as the mission title explicitly suggests.

 

It is a shame. I'm not sure why they didn't stick with / put more emphasis on Lenny and Micah scouting ahead during 'Eastward Bound' - they are sent ahead after all (to what extent, who knows). Once again I think it's sadly another goof. They could have easily been 'sent out' after Sean's party, locking it behind two further preliminary missions or so.

Exit is one of the few missions that I believe was designed from the start to work at various points in the story, just with the variety of dialogue options for Sean and Micah that change depending on how far you've progressed.

 

It can fit nicely where you suggested, right after playing Money Lending and Other Sins I-II, because we know that Arthur hates debt collecting based on his journal entry, so the fact that he just confronted several debtors might explain why he tells Hosea "I could do with a break from this place". Also, their conversations about John, Lenny and Micah during the hunting trip can possibly serve as foreshadowing for Social Call and Quiet Time.

 

I've also considered playing it a bit later, after Quiet Time and Blessed, on account of the bonds dialogue. Arthur will ask Hosea if he found a buyer for the bonds on their way to the Valentine stables, which kind of sounds like Arthur is maybe following up on what Dutch told him in Quiet Time, that Hosea is the one looking for a buyer. However it's plausible that Arthur knew about Hosea working on the bonds even before talking with Dutch.

 

These days my favourite timing is just before Polite Society after robbing the homestead with Javier. That way you can return the borrowed horse and not worry about getting stranded because the stables have already been unlocked. Chronologically this is probably the earliest it makes sense to play the mission, so you don't have to spend as much time avoiding "Hey Arthur!". Plus I kind of like how you bookend the early part of the chapter with conversations from Hosea. He gives you the initial leads, you complete those leads, then you talk with him again.

 

I get what you're saying that Arthur might want some downtime after rescuing Sean. Personally I sleep until noon and then spend most of the following day on chores and hunting, then during the evening when everyone's hangovers would be fading I'll speak with Javier to begin his companion activity. That gives Arthur a chance to recover and plus it seems more fitting to rob the homestead at night. In the past though I've done Polite Society the day after the party like you and it felt like a good order as well. Just one potential issue (apart from not having access to the stables) is that we find Uncle sleeping near the entrance to camp, but during the party he actually falls asleep in a completely different spot, which could mean this is not the intended order.

Edited March 17 by luckycanadian95

[Dan_1983]

19 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

I don't take this route myself but if you travel past Flatneck Station on your way to Blackwater, you might headcanon that Arthur decides to look for Swanson out of concern when he passes through, and then by the time he gets him back to camp the day is essentially over so he stays there for the night and rides to Blackwater in the morning.

 

My first day is pretty similar to yours. I spend time at camp and then go exploring down by the river, where I meet the herbalist gathering tobacco. In my opinion he should be encountered right away because his dialogue feels like a natural extension of the tutorials we got from Hosea during Eastward Bound. Also because when you first approach any plant in the open world you get a help message about using dead eye to find more of them, which I think makes sense to get alongside the other messages during the herbalist encounter.

 

Before returning to camp I'll hunt a deer (if any can be found) and investigate the brush fire. Sometimes I'll visit Limpany like you but personally a gold bar seems like a huge reward for day one  If I did manage to find a deer I'll bring that to Pearson for the trapper reminder, after which Grimshaw usually approaches to say that Micah and Lenny have gone scouting, then I'll examine Swanson's bible to give Arthur another reason to worry about him, and I'll head out down the main road so Arthur meets the paleontologist on his way to the train station.

 

 

That is the route I usually take to Blackwater as I don't really want many distractions on the way there. The only random encounters I get is the O'Driscolls trying to rescue their man from the police wagon or O'Driscolls holding up the stage coach. As I don't really have much time to take the O'Driscoll to town and hand him in to the sheriff, I usually kill him instead haha.

 

I always check out the herbalist and then explore Limpany. I think a gold bar is a great reward after Arthur froze his nuts off during Chapter 1 haha.

 

I usually investigate the Brush Fire when going for the first Jack Hall treasure map. The random encounter where a stranger needs help because he's being harassed by cougar usually spawns here too.

[BleddynRPG]

There really is a ton of information here and it took me a while to read it all. I generally understand the arguments for different chronologies.

From a new player's perspective, it was natural for me to start with PSVS, because the Uncle's marker was right next to it. There, too, in the first chapter, Bill is closer than Pearson. Of course, playing again, I started exploring the area more from the beginning, and that's why the Reverend's mission seems natural to start with, if only it didn't lead to Hosea screaming.

I noticed that during the first game Lenny and Micah weren't in the camp from the beginning, the second time they were there for about a day, now that I've deleted the old saves they haven't been in the camp from the beginning either.

 

[luckycanadian95]

14 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

There really is a ton of information here and it took me a while to read it all. I generally understand the arguments for different chronologies.

From a new player's perspective, it was natural for me to start with PSVS, because the Uncle's marker was right next to it. There, too, in the first chapter, Bill is closer than Pearson. Of course, playing again, I started exploring the area more from the beginning, and that's why the Reverend's mission seems natural to start with, if only it didn't lead to Hosea screaming.

I noticed that during the first game Lenny and Micah weren't in the camp from the beginning, the second time they were there for about a day, now that I've deleted the old saves they haven't been in the camp from the beginning either.

 

Yeah it's too bad that Exit unlocks after our first mission because it doesn't even make sense to go on the hunting trip until after Sean's party, at the earliest.

 

I've found that Lenny and Micah will always be there until you leave camp for the first time or load a save.

Edited March 22 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

You may be right and it's a matter of loading the game.

The link contains information about which missions lead to the next ones: https://ibb.co/Mkt09gWH

Besides, I think I've fallen into the trap that thinking too much about the best storyline makes me lose the joy of the game.

[luckycanadian95]

That's totally fair @BleddynRPG, you should do what you enjoy lol

 

I just started a new game to reset my camp dialogue and noticed something interesting. As we know Arthur will narrate from his journal at various points of the story, for example just before the mission to rob the Leviticus Cornwall train he says "It's been a bad few weeks, but… Dutch being Dutch, he is busy making plans and… Dutch being Dutch, those plans involve robbery and dreams."

 

However, the journal entry those lines are from is unlocked by Old Friends, which means if you play that mission before Genesis it's actually possible to read this entry before we even hear the narration. In every other case though, correct me if I'm wrong, we only hear narration for brand new entries, and we usually see Arthur writing in his journal at the same time, which could imply all these "inner-thought" moments are taking place during the actual writing of the journal entry.

 

If that's true, maybe this is further evidence that Genesis should happen before Old Friends?

Edited March 22 by luckycanadian95

[BleddynRPG]

Playing for the third time I have the feeling that the missions that the creators suggest first at the beginning should be played in a different order in the next game. After the hunt in the first chapter I only have a drawing of a deer in the journal. In general, the hunt seems to be first, although the game suggests Bill. Dutch says that for now there will be no questioning of Kieran, so Arthur has no reason to go to him.

[BleddynRPG]

BTW, hunting with Dead Eye is too easy.

 

One annoying thing is when returning with the Reverend before PSVS, when entering the camp the cart disappears, and after the cutscene it magically reappears.

 

The automatic route from camp to Valentine is the same one that Uncle points to.

AAR before PSVS means no dialogue with the hotel employee about bathing.

 

Edited March 25 by BleddynRPG

[luckycanadian95]

17 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

One annoying thing is when returning with the Reverend before PSVS, when entering the camp the cart disappears, and after the cutscene it magically reappears.

Yeah there's a lot of that going on, especially with the shire horse that you sell/stable during Exit. In my opinion it's probably just one of those gamey things you have to suspend your disbelief about, rather than evidence for a specific order. Possibly it's a consequence of missions unlocking earlier than originally intended.

 

The main reason I believe WS should be done first these days is that it gives players the tutorial for how to interact with NPCs, which is taken for granted during PSVS when you question the hotel clerk about Karen.

 

17 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

AAR before PSVS means no dialogue with the hotel employee about bathing.

Hmmm which dialogue are you referring to? The clerk always recommends a bath to me the next time I visit the hotel after PSVS regardless of the order I followed.  

 

17 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

The automatic route from camp to Valentine is the same one that Uncle points to.

That's true but I often ignore the suggested route in favor of a more realistic one. For example, at the start of the chapter Arthur is unfamiliar with the heartlands so I take the longest path into town, which is to follow the main road starting at the intersection facing Twin Stack Pass, and I'll enter town on the opposite side from were Uncle eventually takes you so that when he gives me a tour of the main street / sheriff's office it's actually new to me. Before AAR I'll leave my horse at the hitching post by the stables near where Thomas Downes is asking for donations, which is actually the default location for your horse during this mission, because if you hitch your horse in front of the saloon the game will teleport it over there to make room for the fight with Tommy, which kind of makes sense because Arthur would be unfamiliar with Valentine during his first visit so he might hitch his horse somewhere on the outskirts of town and then walk around looking for Javier and the other boys.

[luckycanadian95]

18 hours ago, BleddynRPG said:

Playing for the third time I have the feeling that the missions that the creators suggest first at the beginning should be played in a different order in the next game. After the hunt in the first chapter I only have a drawing of a deer in the journal. In general, the hunt seems to be first, although the game suggests Bill. Dutch says that for now there will be no questioning of Kieran, so Arthur has no reason to go to him.

I wonder sometimes if new players are encouraged to start with easier missions, or maybe the missions that are more exciting, because R* thought a chronological order might be less appealing in terms of gameplay. Bill's mission gets you dead eye which like you said makes Pearson's mission a lot easier, and starting with it also front-loads more action at the beginning of the game which might help with player retention.

[BleddynRPG]

5 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

Hmmm which dialogue are you referring to? The clerk always recommends a bath to me the next time I visit the hotel after PSVS regardless of the order I followed.  

The next day after rescuing Swanson I went to Valentine and after the fight I went to wash up and the employee did not suggest a bath. If I do PSVS and after that AAR the employee remembers us and after an exchange of words suggests a bath.

 

BTW, The conversation with Downes goes the same regardless of the chosen option. So in my opinion it's not really important to interact with him from a plot perspective at that particular moment. The lack of interaction with him in PSVS shows that Arthur doesn't pay attention to people like that.

In my opinion the creators mixed up too much to somehow make it possible to do missions in different configurations.

Edited March 25 by BleddynRPG

[BleddynRPG]

6 hours ago, luckycanadian95 said:

 

The main reason I believe WS should be done first these days is that it gives players the tutorial for how to interact with NPCs, which is taken for granted during PSVS when you question the hotel clerk about Karen.

We know how to talk to NPCs from Colter. And the game doesn't have one tutorial, in The Sheep and the Goats it teaches us how to buy weapons.

I don't know what the creators' original intention was, but ultimately the game suggests you go talk to Uncle. Conversations with the girls also show us that ultimately choosing his mission was natural. The game teaches us what good deeds give us, we even have a message that returning the horse will increase our honor.

 

I wonder if there's any way to get Swanson to camp just before Sean's party.

Edited March 25 by BleddynRPG