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FreeMaxB585

SPOILERS! The Major plot hole in the True Ending that made NO SENSE.. SPOILERS!

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The Jungz
On 11/17/2018 at 12:30 AM, Bakkerbaard said:

If anyone is to blame for that, it's Strauss.

Unrelated to the topic but I feel like that's on Arthur.

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FreeMaxB585
20 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

Red Dead 1 is four years later not months and we don't really know why he was robbing that bank in Blackwater. Dutch's motivations get kind of blurry after RDR2 but we know he doesn't do very well under pressure. He gets erratic and makes poor decisions. It could just be that he felt the pressure of John and the law caving in again and fell into his old habits of self-destruction.

 

His motivation throughout RDR2 isn't just to get money, it's to get enough money to keep the entire gang safe. By the time they track down Micah and the money the gang's been over and done with for eight years. He doesn't really "need" it anymore and it's more beneficial for him to leave it with John and Sadie as a sort of "peace offering".  

 

that wasnt the case towards the end tho he didnt care about the gang. He was going to leave john in jail. left arthur to die until the indian saved him. left john to die again during the train robbery. and then was going to leave abigale as well. after guam he clearly didnt give a sh*t about the gang at all

On 11/20/2018 at 7:08 AM, Gray-Hand said:

No. Dutch killed Micah.

missed what I said. where dutch kills you if try shooting at micah. so at that point he was still on his side. didnt change his mind till the last second

On 11/20/2018 at 12:05 PM, SCORE_PR0 said:

Well Dutch did save his life. As his father figure and someone who pretty much raised him, he let him leave. It is made evident that John did NOT want to kill Dutch in the events of the first game. The money thing I agree with, however Dutch eventually went crazy as we all know, and lost his drive to fight for his idea, and simply became a murderer.

 

The money would have done him no good, so he left it, recruited the Indians, and moved down into the Cochinay area. He believed in the old west, and hated civilization enough to live the way he did. There is no point in having money in that lifestyle. Once upon a time the money mattered, but Dutch gave up on his dream.

 

Sorry for rambling, that's my explanation for what happened.

 

dutch cared about money very hard the whole way thru. even towards the end he chose to left abigale there cause he had his money now and she was a girl.he chose to leave john to die because he now had all that gold

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DexMacLeod
1 hour ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

that wasnt the case towards the end tho he didnt care about the gang. He was going to leave john in jail. left arthur to die until the indian saved him. left john to die again during the train robbery. and then was going to leave abigale as well. after guam he clearly didnt give a sh*t about the gang at all

By that time Dutch had already become very paranoid towards Arthur, John and Abigail. In his mind they were going to betray him or maybe even already had. He left them behind because he didn't trust/care about them specifically anymore, not because he didn't care about the gang as a whole.

 

If Dutch truly didn't care about the gang he could have left at just about anytime. He had more than enough money to get himself onto a boat and out of the country but he needed enough to get the gang out with him.

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FreeMaxB585
18 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

By that time Dutch had already become very paranoid towards Arthur, John and Abigail. In his mind they were going to betray him or maybe even already had. He left them behind because he didn't trust/care about them specifically anymore, not because he didn't care about the gang as a whole.

 

If Dutch truly didn't care about the gang he could have left at just about anytime. He had more than enough money to get himself onto a boat and out of the country but he needed enough to get the gang out with him.

 

He def cared at some points. But right before going to Guam is when he started to crumble and then after that he showed time and time again he didnt give a f*ck about numerous people. like leaving arthur to die was the first major sign

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Cutter De Blanc

Dutch would have been way more interesting to play as during the epilogue 

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Gray-Hand
4 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

that wasnt the case towards the end tho he didnt care about the gang. He was going to leave john in jail. left arthur to die until the indian saved him. left john to die again during the train robbery. and then was going to leave abigale as well. after guam he clearly didnt give a sh*t about the gang at all

missed what I said. where dutch kills you if try shooting at micah. so at that point he was still on his side. didnt change his mind till the last second

 

dutch cared about money very hard the whole way thru. even towards the end he chose to left abigale there cause he had his money now and she was a girl.he chose to leave john to die because he now had all that gold

Dutch wasn’t on Micah’s side, as demonstrated and proven by the fact that he shot him.

He also wasn’t on John’s side. John had betrayed him and he had betrayed John.  They were never going to be friends again.  He probably thought it was at least a possibility that John had come to kill him.

 

John let Dutch go because he had moved on sufficiently from any resentment he once held against Dutch, at least to the point that he didn’t need to kill him, unlike Micah, whom he repeatedly talked about going after.  Also Dutch had just saved his life.  That’s usually worth a lot of points.

 

The driving force in Dutch’s life was living a free life without being bound by the rules of ‘civilisation’. He wanted a society that didn’t have those rules, and that’s What his gang was to him.  Money was a tool for achieving his goal, but it wasn’t a motivation in itself.  If he wanted to be rich, he could have done a lot of other things with his life.

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The Jungz
3 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

Dutch would have been way more interesting to play as during the epilogue 

More interesting perhaps, but I have no motivation in playing such a despicable character.

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FreeMaxB585
1 hour ago, Gray-Hand said:

Dutch wasn’t on Micah’s side, as demonstrated and proven by the fact that he shot him.

He also wasn’t on John’s side. John had betrayed him and he had betrayed John.  They were never going to be friends again.  He probably thought it was at least a possibility that John had come to kill him.

 

John let Dutch go because he had moved on sufficiently from any resentment he once held against Dutch, at least to the point that he didn’t need to kill him, unlike Micah, whom he repeatedly talked about going after.  Also Dutch had just saved his life.  That’s usually worth a lot of points.

 

The driving force in Dutch’s life was living a free life without being bound by the rules of ‘civilisation’. He wanted a society that didn’t have those rules, and that’s What his gang was to him.  Money was a tool for achieving his goal, but it wasn’t a motivation in itself.  If he wanted to be rich, he could have done a lot of other things with his life.

 

again towards the end the money was all that mattered to dutch. when he left arthur to die (twice first time with indians and then the face off with micah) left john in prison and to die. and was going to leave abigale in prison as well. in all those scenarios it was when he had money and didnt need nor care about him

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Gray-Hand

Dutch didn’t abandon them because of a love of money.  He abandoned them because the relationships had broken down beyond repair.  

 

And the reasons for the breakdown had little if anything to do with money.  The relationships broke down because John and Arthur had lost faith in Dutch’s methods and leadership and because Dutch felt he had been betrayed by each of them.

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DexMacLeod
5 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

He def cared at some points. But right before going to Guam is when he started to crumble and then after that he showed time and time again he didnt give a f*ck about numerous people. like leaving arthur to die was the first major sign

 

1 hour ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

again towards the end the money was all that mattered to dutch. when he left arthur to die (twice first time with indians and then the face off with micah) left john in prison and to die. and was going to leave abigale in prison as well. in all those scenarios it was when he had money and didnt need nor care about him

Yeah, but like I said, Arthur had already shown that he was losing faith in Dutch and Dutch knew that John and Abigail were on Arthur's side. From Dutch's point of view it was only a matter of time before those three turned on him and/or left the gang.  Dutch leaving those three behind wasn't a sign that he didn't care about the gang it was a sign that he didn't think those three were loyal anymore. Or just a matter of sacrificing the few for the many.

 

The money was the only thing that was important to him because it's what he needed to get the gang somewhere safe. In the very end he left the money behind because there was no more gang to save. If he truly didn't care about the gang he could have left them all behind and started over any time he wanted to.

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FreeMaxB585
11 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

 

Yeah, but like I said, Arthur had already shown that he was losing faith in Dutch and Dutch knew that John and Abigail were on Arthur's side. From Dutch's point of view it was only a matter of time before those three turned on him and/or left the gang.  Dutch leaving those three behind wasn't a sign that he didn't care about the gang it was a sign that he didn't think those three were loyal anymore. Or just a matter of sacrificing the few for the many.

 

The money was the only thing that was important to him because it's what he needed to get the gang somewhere safe. In the very end he left the money behind because there was no more gang to save. If he truly didn't care about the gang he could have left them all behind and started over any time he wanted to.

 

I disagree. when it came to abigale micah even said "dutch shes just a girl we have money now" and dutch was like "yea we cant risk more people" the first time he left john in prison that was when john was still very very loyal and they had NO qualms at that point yet. Thats when he first got angry at arthur it was the very first time arthur straight did not obey him. but at that point when john was in prison there wasnt anything yet where he or any of them were turning on dutch. that was all after he got out of prison and became upset because he didnt give the order

 

and even right before arhurs death and during that last robbery the gang was all but decimated only a few were left and dutch only cared about the big bag of gold he had when he left john to die

Edited by FreeMaxB585

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Gray-Hand

You are misremembering.  Dutch had made it clear to Arthur that he had grave doubts of the loyalty of Abigail and John in  Chapter 5 after the failed bank robbery.

 

And when he voiced those doubts to Arthur, Arthur did not accept them, and also openly questioned his decisions.

 

the fact that none of them had actually betrayed him at that point was irrelevant - he thought that they had.

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woggleman

A bit off topic but this might be why Dutch in many ways is the best Rockstar antagonist. He is not really a classic and one dimensional villain. You don't hate him like you do Dimitri or Tenpenny. He is a seriously warped man but he isn't outright evil. He has many layers and sides to him.

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Gray-Hand

That’s right. His descent from the strong and resourceful leader at the top of his game in the opening scenes to the paranoid narcicist, broken by loss and failure in chapter 6 is really well done.

His character arc is possibly even more interesting than Arthur’s.

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DexMacLeod
2 hours ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

 

I disagree. when it came to abigale micah even said "dutch shes just a girl we have money now" and dutch was like "yea we cant risk more people" the first time he left john in prison that was when john was still very very loyal and they had NO qualms at that point yet. Thats when he first got angry at arthur it was the very first time arthur straight did not obey him. but at that point when john was in prison there wasnt anything yet where he or any of them were turning on dutch. that was all after he got out of prison and became upset because he didnt give the order

 

and even right before arhurs death and during that last robbery the gang was all but decimated only a few were left and dutch only cared about the big bag of gold he had when he left john to die

 

John was openly questioning Dutch as early as the end of Chapter 4. The way Dutch was getting more and more out of control that was enough for him. He actually had a pretty valid reason for not wanting to break John out of prison yet, though. He was worried it would bring the law down on the rest of the gang, and he was right. 

 

Abigail was kind of similar in that he didn't want to risk any more people to save one. One he had serious doubts about, no less. 

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FreeMaxB585
21 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

 

John was openly questioning Dutch as early as the end of Chapter 4. The way Dutch was getting more and more out of control that was enough for him. He actually had a pretty valid reason for not wanting to break John out of prison yet, though. He was worried it would bring the law down on the rest of the gang, and he was right. 

 

Abigail was kind of similar in that he didn't want to risk any more people to save one. One he had serious doubts about, no less. 

 

but the whole time sense the start he was always preaching about no man ever be left behind.....even when micah was in jail that was going to bring a ton of heat to with all the law enforcement dead but he still gave arthur the ok because nobody gets left behind

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Gray-Hand

As has already been explained repeatedly - Dutch sided with Micah and went against the  others because he believed Micah was loyal to him and he believed the others had betrayed him.  He was loyal to those he believed were loyal to him and abandoned that loyalty when he felt they had abandoned their loyalty to him.

 

When he realised the error of his ways, he killed Micah and saved John.

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ChefHUTCH

Dutch and Micah hadn't been together since they separated on the mountain after Arthur died and told Dutch Micah was the rat. Dutch lured Micah out with some of the money at the end but he had a good 100k leftover from the Blackwater Job or if he never went back to get that, he had the 50k of the camps money. He was Pretending to get back with Micah. But when John arrived, he said he was there for the same reason. Dutch was Luring Micah out to redeem himself. Micah didn't know this until Dutch shot him. 

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