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FreeMaxB585

SPOILERS! The Major plot hole in the True Ending that made NO SENSE.. SPOILERS!

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FreeMaxB585

First off. John and Sadie would NEVER let dutch leave like that. Dutch left John to die, was going to leave him in prison, pretty much led the whole gang to die ever sense he kept trusting micah and keeping him around. He also was ready to leave sadie captured as well and he led directly to arthurs death. They would never let his ass walk away like that

Also Dutch def wouldnt just walk away from all that $ like that. That was his whole existence was getting money and going away. But what makes NO SENSE is him and micah have all that $. He always talked about getting that money and moving far away like Tahiti or just somewhere where he is unknown. If they had that much money they wouldnt be chilling up in the cold mountains in some dinky cabin. They had more than enough to go anywhere in the world. Even more so they wouldnt be so close to the areas they were wanted in and did all their dirt in. Its not just being in the snow its that they were still super close to all the other areas. I could see Micah being around there like a moron but No reason for dutch to

Dutch also knew arthur wouldnt lie and that Micah was a snitch, I highly doubt he would trust him enough to reunite with him and be cool with him after all the members of his past gang were killed because of him telling the pinkertons where they were every step of the way, killing arthur, corrupting the whole gang. Would actually make sense for Dutch to take his money and vanish for awhile

I can get going for shock value with dutch being there but it just made no sense at all. After all he had done John and sadie wouldnt have let him leave like that, and if they thought about it at all they would have realized that makes no sense for them to have Dutch up there so close to all the crimes he did with all the money in the world in some freezing cabin

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Cutter De Blanc

Yeah I don't get it either except to just have Dutch be totally badass one more time at the end of the game because c'mon, it's Dutch

 

was nice seeing him but it's like what the hell are you even doing here

Edited by Cutter De Blanc
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Jabalous

None of that is a plot hole. It's simply your take on how the story should've been at the end. I think all of this can be explained by the fact that Dutch isn't actually interested in the money and settling down somewhere else to live the life of a farmer, but instead he's still keen on pushing his agenda and fighting against the approaching civilization until his last breath. That's how he was in Redemption, living in the cold mountains with a gang of his own not far from Blackwater. Unless you can go back and change the story that originally started in 2010, I don't think there's any point to say he should've taken the money and disappeared. 

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DexMacLeod

It all made sense to me. John has a lot of history with Dutch, he was like a Father as he said many times. It makes sense to me that it might not be easy to just kill someone like that, especially after they just saved you and your friend's lives. And Sadie and Charles were busy dying, they had bigger things to worry about. Like Jabalous said, Dutch was just starting his journey to becoming what we know him as in Redemption and just wasn't interested in the money anymore.

 

The biggest plothole to me comes in the beginning. They've got all that money stashed in Blackwater they can't get to because of the law but it always seemed to me they could have pretty easily sent Sadie in there to get it. I get that it would have been an incredibly short story if they'd done that and succeeded but it's weird that they never even brought it up.

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Jason

Dutch has a line in the final meeting that's kinda interesting. John asks him what he's doing here and Dutch's reply is "same as you, I suppose". John came there to kill Micah pure and simple and Dutch knows that. Perhaps Dutch was biding time to make a move or I don't know, but it's a weird thing to say and kinda hard to be taken to mean anything other than him being there to kill Micah.

 

Also I don't think they'd be interested in killing him cause I mean why? He just saved their lives and both John and Sadie acknowledge the fact in an earlier mission that while Dutch is to blame for things the blame is not his alone, a lot of people made mistakes and all sorts of sh*t happened.

 

10 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

The biggest plothole to me comes in the beginning. They've got all that money stashed in Blackwater they can't get to because of the law but it always seemed to me they could have pretty easily sent Sadie in there to get it. I get that it would have been an incredibly short story if they'd done that and succeeded but it's weird that they never even brought it up.

You've just blown my mind lmao

 

It could maybe be written that Dutch doesn't have enough trust in Sadie to have her alone go fetch all that money, moving that money alone would possibly attract attention depending on where it is too. By the time she's trustworthy enough her identity is known I'd guess too. Also by the sounds of it Trelawny can move freely around Blackwater, but I guess he doesn't completely trust him either.

 

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Mach1bud

I haven't finished the story, but honestly I got the vibes that the money wasn't even real to begin with. Just something Dutch made up to keep the gang under his control.

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Iroquois

Maybe Dutch was planting a trap. He probably pretended to be on Micah's side up in that cabin, just to be able to get close enough to kill him. And maybe why it took him so long to shoot was to make sure John and Sadie would clear any doubt he had if they said the same thing they said back at the cave. As for letting him go, Micah was responsible for a lot of the bad stuff that happened. Dutch was clearly consumed by power blinding his judgement. Im sure thats why John and Sadie didnt shoot him. they knew. Also, John and Sadie were clearly gonna die. Everyone knew that then and there. Micah had em. I'm sure if someone saved your life when you knew it was a 110% possibility that there is no way out of it, you would thank him too and let him be.

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Arthur Bell

It's apparent to me that Dutch suffers from a subtle, but growing mental illness throughout the story. His leadership complex would go nowhere without his charm, or without certain members of the gang. When you begin to take away whatever elements you have left, Dutch's worst fear isn't a lack of money. It's being alone.

 

While Micah was a snitch, he was also the last person left with him who remembered the gang life. Dutch holds onto a bizarre nostalgia and has faith that things will workout. Whether or not it'll work for others, it's about him. When he sees that John, Sadie, and Charles have worked together, despite not being anything close to gang members, his nostalgic tinted glasses give him realization that he could in fact survive without Micah, or any of them. In a hail Mary pass, he kills Micah not purely for being a rat, but wanting to let John know that he won't be chasing him down.

 

At that same moment, John takes in this sentimental feeling. Should he listen to Arthur, or chase down Dutch, risking the lack of sight of wellbeing for Charles and Sadie?

 

Of course, in reality, it's all plot insurance. I enjoy trying to reason with the story decisions almost philosophically, even if I know that they won't justify anything.

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FreeMaxB585
36 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

It all made sense to me. John has a lot of history with Dutch, he was like a Father as he said many times. It makes sense to me that it might not be easy to just kill someone like that, especially after they just saved you and your friend's lives. And Sadie and Charles were busy dying, they had bigger things to worry about. Like Jabalous said, Dutch was just starting his journey to becoming what we know him as in Redemption and just wasn't interested in the money anymore.

 

The biggest plothole to me comes in the beginning. They've got all that money stashed in Blackwater they can't get to because of the law but it always seemed to me they could have pretty easily sent Sadie in there to get it. I get that it would have been an incredibly short story if they'd done that and succeeded but it's weird that they never even brought it up.

 

um sadie was still right there tho. she was very alive the entire time even when john was bringing the money. with how her personality was she wouldve and shouldve taken out dutch for letting arthur die and crumbling the whole gang. john also knew that dutch was responsible for arthur and many others dying and he had left him to die TWICE.

 

But as I said the part that made the least sense was Dutchs plan the whole time was to get a bunch of money and retire somewhere off the grid. not get it all and hang around cold mountains so close to enemy territory. same for micah to but wouldve made more sense if dutch was never there at all

16 minutes ago, Iroquois said:

Maybe Dutch was planting a trap. He probably pretended to be on Micah's side up in that cabin, just to be able to get close enough to kill him. And maybe why it took him so long to shoot was to make sure John and Sadie would clear any doubt he had if they said the same thing they said back at the cave. As for letting him go, Micah was responsible for a lot of the bad stuff that happened. Dutch was clearly consumed by power blinding his judgement. Im sure thats why John and Sadie didnt shoot him. they knew. Also, John and Sadie were clearly gonna die. Everyone knew that then and there. Micah had em. I'm sure if someone saved your life when you knew it was a 110% possibility that there is no way out of it, you would thank him too and let him be.

 lol it was clear he was with micah for quite some time. he couldve killed him back when it was just him micah and arthur as well. he was clearly back with him in that area he couldve killed him at any moment

28 minutes ago, Jason said:

Dutch has a line in the final meeting that's kinda interesting. John asks him what he's doing here and Dutch's reply is "same as you, I suppose". John came there to kill Micah pure and simple and Dutch knows that. Perhaps Dutch was biding time to make a move or I don't know, but it's a weird thing to say and kinda hard to be taken to mean anything other than him being there to kill Micah.

 

Also I don't think they'd be interested in killing him cause I mean why? He just saved their lives and both John and Sadie acknowledge the fact in an earlier mission that while Dutch is to blame for things the blame is not his alone, a lot of people made mistakes and all sorts of sh*t happened.

 

You've just blown my mind lmao

 

It could maybe be written that Dutch doesn't have enough trust in Sadie to have her alone go fetch all that money, moving that money alone would possibly attract attention depending on where it is too. By the time she's trustworthy enough her identity is known I'd guess too. Also by the sounds of it Trelawny can move freely around Blackwater, but I guess he doesn't completely trust him either.

 

 

nah cause if dutch was only around there to kill micah wouldve done it earlier. he didnt change his mind until john started making sense to dutch.... and again wouldve been better if he just wasnt there because with how john and sadie are if things made any sense they wouldve killed him for destroying the whole gang. letting arthur die and leaving john to die twice

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Iroquois

error in posting

 

Umm no not really tho. Regardless if he was or wasnt with him for quite some time  (i dont recall them mentioning this), like i said, he waited until jack and sadie would arrive to hear if they repeat what they said about micah to remove any final doubts before pulling the trigger. It was very emotional for him. And if he WAS with micah for a long time, that would make even more sense. Dutch keeps telling everyone throughout the game that he likes plan to many many many steps ahead, like chess but times infinity. He couldve planned his meeting and fake friendship with micah until it would make news that would reach out to jack and sadie to find the two of them intentionally. Basically everyone was a pawn in Dutch's plan.

Edited by Iroquois

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Jason
14 minutes ago, FreeMaxB585 said:

nah cause if dutch was only around there to kill micah wouldve done it earlier. he didnt change his mind until john started making sense to dutch.... and again wouldve been better if he just wasnt there because with how john and sadie are if things made any sense they wouldve killed him for destroying the whole gang. letting arthur die and leaving john to die twice

John doesn't blame Dutch for all that happened. Him and Sadie talk about it in an earlier mission, he says Dutch isn't blameless but most of what went wrong was because of Micah. At no point is it mentioned that he blames Dutch for Arthur's death either, Arthur was going to die for reasons completely unrelated to the events in the last few weeks of the gang (TB).

 

We have hard evidence in game of John asking why Dutch is with Micah and he says "same as you". That's pretty indisputable evidence that Dutch is there to kill Micah or at least see some sort of ending to it all, or something like that, given that unless Dutch has straight up lost his mind he can't think John is there for any other reason than to kill Micah, but an aging Dutch vs Micah's gang isn't a fight he'd come out alive from so he's biding his time. It also doesn't sound like Dutch has been there long either going by Micah's comments on "all manner of social calls" and how "me and Dutch are getting the band back together" (or something like that).

 

I mean you ask why John didn't kill Dutch but he flat out thanks him for shooting Micah. There's an argument for a few plotholes in the game but this one really isn't one IMO, not unless you ignore dialogue said by the characters and then try and fill the gaps with speculation.

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Iroquois

Exactly Jason. Thank you!

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Furi0sa

Definitely not a plot hole, John didn't need to kill Dutch as the others have explained. He was a shell of himself at that point. He didn't give a sh*t about the money.

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Bakkerbaard
4 hours ago, Jason said:

Arthur was going to die for reasons completely unrelated to the events in the last few weeks of the gang (TB).

If anyone is to blame for that, it's Strauss.

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Shadowfennekin

You could tell Dutch finally saw through Micah in the final mission as Arthur. Arthur begs him and Dutch finally sees the truth and just leaves, which upsets Micah who runs off.

 

Then years later Dutch returned to kill Micah; He even tells John "Same reason as you I suppose" He knew John was there to kill Micah

Money meant nothing to Dutch anymore, you can see that in RDR 1

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Gallows

The entire story builds towards this ending where dutch finally sees that he was wrong and lost his way. When Arthur tells dutch that Johns situation is just what they have fought for, when Dutch says John is like a son to him. So many small things throughout the story points towards this, so I would not call it a plot hole. Dutch then getting mad because of Johns betrayal in RDR1 makes sense, because he did let him go and gave him a chance for a better life.

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TheSantader25

1)Dutch doesn't give a F about money

 

2)He is crazy and unstable and in denial about many things he once believed in which is why he keeps switching his ideas about Micah. 

 

Even in chapter 5 he kills that old woman and forgets to pick the gold bar again which proves the two points above 

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White Shark

To me it made sense.  Dutch is a survivor.  Saving his own skin is the only thing that always matters to him.  Considering the circumstances they were all in on the mountain, he decided to betray Micah to save his own skin,instead of risk getting shot and killed outright, or wounded then freezing to death.  By shooting Micah, he knew it would probably spare his own life as John would have been grateful for what he probably perceived as Dutch turning 'good' and 'making the right decision'.  Ultimately, it just granted Dutch safe passage away.

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Jimmy Darmody

Don't you all get it?

The ending is SYMBOLIC. Dutch kills Micah and leaves the money for John because that's his REDEMPTION. After being weak and blinded by the possibility to move to Tahiti, but at the expense of his whole gang he figures that killing Micah, the rat, and aiding John's and Arthur's dream by giving the money to a meaningful cause (John's making it out of crime life and starting a family) is the only way to get forgiveness. He betrayed his ideals, by killing Micah he made things right again.

But FreeMax makes VERY GOOD points, though... 

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CrimsonFolo

The way i see it, I think Dutch wants people to believe in him and have "faith" and he generally wants to roll with a gang that follows his every order pretty much. 

 

I think this because Dutch only tolerated Hosea and Arthur (at some points) giving advice and the likes. Then he got angry when Arthur decided to say stuff. Micah kept singing Dutchs praises all the time and bigging him up so Dutch listened to Micah a bit in those aspects. 

 

Tahiti was most likely a made up thing to convince the gang to follow along with his ideas, he doesn't even know exactly where it is or too much information about it. 

 

He likes the native americans as they were easy to rile up and convince due to their feud. In the first Red Dead game, Dutch was chilling with some native americans in the mountains too if i can remember correctly. 

 

He kills Micah most likely because John and Sadie kill of their entire gang and then Dutch just gives up on Micah and shoots him, and Dutch has a history on giving up on folks too. He leaves the money because he truly doesn't care about that most likely. 

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MagicNarcosis

So I didn't read anything in this thread, nor will I reply to any quotes until I'm finished with the game but this title of this topic is a major buzzkill/wrench in gears for those (like myself) who are constantly curious and concerned about everything the ending has to offer, and you're facilitating active doubt before we even get there. I don't wanna know your opinion fresh in the title.

 

Could you change it a bit for the rest of those who are trying to take coming about the ending while reading these forums as careful as they can? 

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Oldsport
13 hours ago, Bakkerbaard said:

If anyone is to blame for that, it's Strauss.

no strauss hate on this thread pal

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Bakkerbaard
2 hours ago, Oldsport said:

no strauss hate on this thread pal

It's not a matter of love or hate in this particular instance. Like a fairytale unbiased internet user and someone who has seen movies about reporters who are told to report the facts, I state calmly and professionally that if Strauss had not sent Arthur to the Downes ranch, things would not have turned out the way they did. 

Plus, I don't like the beady eyed little f*cker. ;o)

 

Come to think of it, all of a sudden. I seem to remember that mission being a white marker as opposed to a story marker. That suggests to me that you could progress the story without contracting TB.

Maybe I'll fire up a second playthrough when I'm good and settled in Online. See if I can actively work against the story I now know.

Unless someone tried that already. In which case I'm just too lazy.

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FreeMaxB585
21 hours ago, Jason said:

John doesn't blame Dutch for all that happened. Him and Sadie talk about it in an earlier mission, he says Dutch isn't blameless but most of what went wrong was because of Micah. At no point is it mentioned that he blames Dutch for Arthur's death either, Arthur was going to die for reasons completely unrelated to the events in the last few weeks of the gang (TB).

 

We have hard evidence in game of John asking why Dutch is with Micah and he says "same as you". That's pretty indisputable evidence that Dutch is there to kill Micah or at least see some sort of ending to it all, or something like that, given that unless Dutch has straight up lost his mind he can't think John is there for any other reason than to kill Micah, but an aging Dutch vs Micah's gang isn't a fight he'd come out alive from so he's biding his time. It also doesn't sound like Dutch has been there long either going by Micah's comments on "all manner of social calls" and how "me and Dutch are getting the band back together" (or something like that).

 

I mean you ask why John didn't kill Dutch but he flat out thanks him for shooting Micah. There's an argument for a few plotholes in the game but this one really isn't one IMO, not unless you ignore dialogue said by the characters and then try and fill the gaps with speculation.

but dutch wouldve killed him well before. anytime before. like when micah was begging dutch to come with him when arthur was dying

13 hours ago, Shadowfennekin said:

You could tell Dutch finally saw through Micah in the final mission as Arthur. Arthur begs him and Dutch finally sees the truth and just leaves, which upsets Micah who runs off.

 

Then years later Dutch returned to kill Micah; He even tells John "Same reason as you I suppose" He knew John was there to kill Micah

Money meant nothing to Dutch anymore, you can see that in RDR 1

 

if dutch fully believed it at that time and believed arthur fully he wouldve gunned micah down there

3 hours ago, Jimmy Darmody said:

Don't you all get it?

The ending is SYMBOLIC. Dutch kills Micah and leaves the money for John because that's his REDEMPTION. After being weak and blinded by the possibility to move to Tahiti, but at the expense of his whole gang he figures that killing Micah, the rat, and aiding John's and Arthur's dream by giving the money to a meaningful cause (John's making it out of crime life and starting a family) is the only way to get forgiveness. He betrayed his ideals, by killing Micah he made things right again.

But FreeMax makes VERY GOOD points, though... 

 

but if that was the case then dutch wouldnt have turned into such an asshole who was trying to rob more banks like he does just months later (red dead 1) he couldve had some of that money to retire instead he is robbing banks and killing innocent people like we saw in red dead 1

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Jason

Dutch didn't know who or what to believe, his plans all kept failing, he was losing people all the time, the Pinkerton's were right behind them and people he needed to rely on were starting to lose faith in him. You see how he starts to lose trust in Arthur in Chapter 6 when he gets pissed about Arthur insisting they get the girls out, hell there's a throwaway line in the camp in chapter 2 where he says he thinks Arthur will be the one to betray him. The man is completely paranoid and doesn't know who or what to believe by the end of the main story.

 

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GroveStGTAV

In that mission, when you try to kill dutch, micah kills you

when you try to kill micah, dutch kills you.

when you try to kill sadie, both kills you.

john dont have a chance in there because sadie in their hands. John would give up if dutch didnt shoot micah.

 

Maybe dutch finally understand arthurs words in there and killed micah and gave his all money to john because he has family.

 

Edited by GroveStGTAV

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FreeMaxB585
On 11/17/2018 at 5:19 PM, GroveStGTAV said:

In that mission, when you try to kill dutch, micah kills you

when you try to kill micah, dutch kills you.

when you try to kill sadie, both kills you.

john dont have a chance in there because sadie in their hands. John would give up if dutch didnt shoot micah.

 

Maybe dutch finally understand arthurs words in there and killed micah and gave his all money to john because he has family.

 

right so dutch was on micahs side

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Gray-Hand

No. Dutch killed Micah.

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SCORE_PR0

Well Dutch did save his life. As his father figure and someone who pretty much raised him, he let him leave. It is made evident that John did NOT want to kill Dutch in the events of the first game. The money thing I agree with, however Dutch eventually went crazy as we all know, and lost his drive to fight for his idea, and simply became a murderer.

 

The money would have done him no good, so he left it, recruited the Indians, and moved down into the Cochinay area. He believed in the old west, and hated civilization enough to live the way he did. There is no point in having money in that lifestyle. Once upon a time the money mattered, but Dutch gave up on his dream.

 

Sorry for rambling, that's my explanation for what happened.

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DexMacLeod
On 11/17/2018 at 3:54 PM, FreeMaxB585 said:

but dutch wouldve killed him well before. anytime before. like when micah was begging dutch to come with him when arthur was dying

 

if dutch fully believed it at that time and believed arthur fully he wouldve gunned micah down there

 

but if that was the case then dutch wouldnt have turned into such an asshole who was trying to rob more banks like he does just months later (red dead 1) he couldve had some of that money to retire instead he is robbing banks and killing innocent people like we saw in red dead 1

Red Dead 1 is four years later not months and we don't really know why he was robbing that bank in Blackwater. Dutch's motivations get kind of blurry after RDR2 but we know he doesn't do very well under pressure. He gets erratic and makes poor decisions. It could just be that he felt the pressure of John and the law caving in again and fell into his old habits of self-destruction.

 

His motivation throughout RDR2 isn't just to get money, it's to get enough money to keep the entire gang safe. By the time they track down Micah and the money the gang's been over and done with for eight years. He doesn't really "need" it anymore and it's more beneficial for him to leave it with John and Sadie as a sort of "peace offering".  

 

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