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Ayesha

Mission design is a joke

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Ayesha

I couldn't keep it to myself after playing  *CHAPTER 5 SPOILER* 

Spoiler

That prison break mission and the hot air balloon mission for Sadie. She slaps prison guards before taking their weapons?! And getting shot by gang members on horse and chatting to Arthur (in hot air balloon) at the same time?

 

The standards have really fell this time. I am distraught. Was expecting a stealth 

Spoiler

prison break mission.

 

If you disagree, help me understand why.

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Dr.Rosenthal

I was surprised by that mission, because you prepared for one thing (”stealth” prison break) and then the plan fell apart. I kind of like that though, and it’s been the same with a lot of missions; you go into them thinking one thing and then the outcome is something entirely different.

 

But I really wouldn’t say mission design is a joke. The missions are far more fun and intense than they were in GTAV, but that’s just my opinion...

Edited by Dr.Rosenthal
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Cutter De Blanc

Almost every mission in this game seems to be a plan that was supposed to go one way and ends up devolving into a shootout

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Nutduster
32 minutes ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

Almost every mission in this game seems to be a plan that was supposed to go one way and ends up devolving into a shootout

 

Which is kind of the point of the story, right?  Just one "best laid plan" after another coming to ruin.  These guys are fooling themselves - they aren't master criminals, they're a ragtag group comprised of one quarter psychos, half idiots and 100% bad decision-makers. 

 

I'm only halfway into chapter 3 but so far I have no complaints.  The missions are interesting and keep you on your toes - there's almost always at least one twist to them, and they integrate the writing in clever ways, dropping in little plot details or character moments here and there during missions that are otherwise about something else completely.  Lack of a true stealth mission does not bother me (that stuff is not really what westerns are about anyway).

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Journey_95

Nah the missions are great, no need for half assed stealth like in Ubisoft games anyway. I like how unlike GTA V not every mission is some action blockbuster either

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Jeemy

I'm only on early chapter 3 but I've got a ton of hours in this and other R* properties. I don't think they've written anything like a good story for years. So I am sure you are right. The open-world is good, but not so good it excuses the absolutely inadequate scripting and story writing.

 

Its all very well having 700 pages, or 8 million lines of dialogue, or whatever the f*ck they have. But if you don't understand grammar and can't assemble them, what's the point?

 

Also a bit off topic but my hugest bug-bear is when they have a triggered line in a game like: "Hey, Jeemy, why don't you get on your horse?".

 

Or "Hey Jeemy are you going to buy anything".

 

But its repeated once every 10 seconds. If they set it to once every 3-4 minutes, it would be believable. Instead you are saddled (ahaha) with NPCs who just repeat lines over and over. I don't understand why no devs have ever identified this in any game, ever.

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wagszilla

I agree.

 

But the stealth especially is quite laughable. The guards literally stare at the wall in Chapter 5.

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DexMacLeod

That mission in particular didn't bug me because there had already been quite a few like it at that point.  After reading that they'd spent a lot of time on their A.I. I was hoping we'd get better missions but RDR2 seems to be typical Rockstar in that regard.

 

One of the things I tend to like about Ubisoft games is the way you can tackle a mission stealthy, guns blazing or you can start stealthy, things go to sh*t and you have to shoot your way out of the problem. In RDR2 way too many missions start stealthy, then things go to sh*t in a cutscene out of your control and you have to shoot your way out of the situation.

 

I love RDR2 and Rockstar in general but I'd also love to see them step away from the overly scripted missions and give us some that allow for freedom and choice.

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Journey_95
1 hour ago, Jeemy said:

I'm only on early chapter 3 but I've got a ton of hours in this and other R* properties. I don't think they've written anything like a good story for years. So I am sure you are right. The open-world is good, but not so good it excuses the absolutely inadequate scripting and story writing.

 

Its all very well having 700 pages, or 8 million lines of dialogue, or whatever the f*ck they have. But if you don't understand grammar and can't assemble them, what's the point?

 

Also a bit off topic but my hugest bug-bear is when they have a triggered line in a game like: "Hey, Jeemy, why don't you get on your horse?".

 

Or "Hey Jeemy are you going to buy anything".

 

But its repeated once every 10 seconds. If they set it to once every 3-4 minutes, it would be believable. Instead you are saddled (ahaha) with NPCs who just repeat lines over and over. I don't understand why no devs have ever identified this in any game, ever.

With the exception of GTA V which while entertaining had a rather shallow story, Rockstar have only evolved in terms of writing. I'm not sure how the 3D Era GTA's for an example were better written than GTA IV, RDR,MP3 and RDR2?  

7 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

That mission in particular didn't bug me because there had already been quite a few like it at that point.  After reading that they'd spent a lot of time on their A.I. I was hoping we'd get better missions but RDR2 seems to be typical Rockstar in that regard.

 

One of the things I tend to like about Ubisoft games is the way you can tackle a mission stealthy, guns blazing or you can start stealthy, things go to sh*t and you have to shoot your way out of the problem. In RDR2 way too many missions start stealthy, then things go to sh*t in a cutscene out of your control and you have to shoot your way out of the situation.

 

I love RDR2 and Rockstar in general but I'd also love to see them step away from the overly scripted missions and give us some that allow for freedom and choice.

I get your point but I prefer Rockstar's scripted missions, they are more memorable that way. I can't think of many memorable missions in Far Cry 5 for an example, since you can always choose your own approach it all feels too generic. Same for games like MGSV

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SAS_Intruder

I did like the story for the most part but missions did feel lame. Not all of them of course but there was surprisingly large number of missions who didn't really lead nowhere or they were abruptly interupted by some cut scene and that would be all. Good example is riverboat heist ending in gang jumping in water few miles from the coast while fully dressed and carrying money.  I guess riverboat couldn't catch them lol. 

 

On top of that, Chapter 5 is completely out of place and it was terrible from design standpoint.  

 

There are few other minor complaints such as lack of proper missions in Roanoke Ridge area ( Annesburg and Van Horn) as well as relatively quick ending to Rhodes chapter and I was really expecting to learn more about  2 families .

 

Overall story was good but I do feel that's more because they used oldest trick in the entertainment book-tragic death one of main heroes.  Something that many TV shows profit on, GoT for example.  When story gets lame, kill someone important lol.

 

Spoiler

On top of that, Epilogue part with John is nod to all fans of RDR1 and at the end, rarely anyone would give bad rating for the story, including me. But without tragic part, I have feeling that missions were not very well created and we didn't get to know  in depth many other interesting characters. 

 

Edited by Spider-Vice
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JJXC61
17 minutes ago, SAS_Intruder said:
Spoiler

I did like the story for the most part but missions did feel lame. Not all of them of course but there was surprisingly large number of missions who didn't really lead nowhere or they were abruptly interupted by some cut scene and that would be all. Good example is riverboat heist ending in gang jumping in water few miles from the coast while fully dressed and carrying money.  I guess riverboat couldn't catch them lol. 

 

On top of that, Chapter 5 is completely out of place and it was terrible from design standpoint.  

 

There are few other minor complaints such as lack of proper missions in Roanoke Ridge area ( Annesburg and Van Horn) as well as relatively quick ending to Rhodes chapter and I was really expecting to learn more about  2 families .

 

Overall story was good but I do feel that's more because they used oldest trick in the entertainment book-tragic death one of main heroes.  Something that many TV shows profit on, GoT for example.  When story gets lame, kill someone important lol.

 

On top of that, Epilogue part with John is nod to all fans of RDR1 and at the end, rarely anyone would give bad rating for the story, including me. But without tragic part, I have feeling that missions were not very well created and we didn't get to know  in depth many other interesting characters. 

 

 

Thanks for the spoilers you idiot.

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Nutduster
2 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

One of the things I tend to like about Ubisoft games is the way you can tackle a mission stealthy, guns blazing or you can start stealthy, things go to sh*t and you have to shoot your way out of the problem. In RDR2 way too many missions start stealthy, then things go to sh*t in a cutscene out of your control and you have to shoot your way out of the situation.

 

 

It's because they plan the mission portions of their games cinematically. It's a bit weird actually, since they are a pioneering open world developer and thus an avatar of freedom of choice. But when you get into story missions they are trying to tell a certain story in a certain way, and they want to give you a particular and exciting experience.  It's not totally on rails like some games get, but there is very often no alternative approach to the mission.  If you want options, you need to mess about in free roam instead.

 

The upside of doing it this way is that their games are riddled with very memorable moments in missions that I find to be largely lacking from Ubisoft and Ubi-like games.  For instance, I just did a mission last night where (I'll dance around spoilers here) you do a robbery that of course goes wrong, you try to hide out somewhere and get surrounded, and you are peeking through a hole in a wall waiting to see if you'll get lucky or be forced to shoot your way out, or what.  It had my heart in my chest and the peeking-through part was conceived almost like a scene in a movie.  That's an experience you seldom get in most open world games like you're describing.  I think Rockstar has taken a page from Naughty Dog in this way - or maybe they just have overlapping influences and goals.  But both developers really want to push these big moments and so they're not going to let you just stealth past those bits or chuck some explosives and just clear out everybody before the cool scripted stuff can occur.

 

Ubi-like games have their benefits too, of course.  I think Shadow of Mordor/War were both pretty Ubisoft-inspired and in a similar way they let you set your own approach to many of the missions; outside of cut scenes, you are basically in control of how something goes down most of the time.  That can lead to some crazy, very unscripted clashes of the game systems, especially with your subjugated orcs helping out.  But I'll be damned if I can remember much of what happened in any of those missions because just a little while after I stopped playing, it all blurred together.

 

3 hours ago, Jeemy said:

I'm only on early chapter 3 but I've got a ton of hours in this and other R* properties. I don't think they've written anything like a good story for years. So I am sure you are right. The open-world is good, but not so good it excuses the absolutely inadequate scripting and story writing.

 

What about the scripting is "absolutely inadequate" to you?  For as long as their games are and as many different side activities as you can fill your time with, I think the writing is pretty good, and has only improved with each game they've made starting with GTA IV.  The 3D era games were nothing to write home about narratively (though they started delving into some interesting stuff with San Andreas here and there).  But with IV, V, RDR and now RDR2 they have a unifying theme and story they want to tell in each game, and while they will venture off the trail for long stretches (as you'd expect from games with 60-100 missions), they come back to it when it counts.

 

They're not writing up to the level of The Last Of Us, but that's a basically unachievable standard in an open world context.  And in fact is basically unachievable period, when you look at the other linear games that have all failed to live up to that masterpiece.

 

I also think the repetitive dialogue you mention from NPCs is less of a problem here than in most open world games I've ever played.  (My wife and I are finishing Divinity: Original Sin 2 right now - an open world RPG - and NPCs literally just say the same two canned phrases again, and again, and again until you go insane.)  With these games, NPCs can't have infinite dialogue, so you really only have two choices: make them stand there mute 99% of the time, or make them chattier but repeat themselves.  I think RDR2 is less repetitive by far than any previous Rockstar game this way, and less repetitive than most any similar game I've played before.  So they're making an effort, but the goal of complete realism is just not achievable.  It helps the experience if you don't hang around one NPC for 20 minutes just listening to them go on.  The illusion is far more effective if you keep moving.

Edited by Nutduster
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SonOfLiberty

I actually think it's clever and smart mission design when it makes you think that x will happen, but y happens instead. I too thought the same thing about the mission you're talking about, but it was a nice surprise that it threw me off guard.

 

I enjoy the missions for the most part and can't think of one in particular I've disliked. However the first few missions of chapter 5 felt a little unnecessary like a substitute because of there being no Mexico in the game. That is probably the only blemish I've found so far.

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SAS_Intruder
2 hours ago, JJXC61 said:

 

Thanks for the spoilers you idiot.

At this point you are pretty much reading topic at your own responsibility.  You came here to discuss mission design yet you don't expect to see a spoiler?  Geez, grow up.

 

As for "idiot" , parents obviously didn't raise you well kid.

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Ghoffman9
7 hours ago, wagszilla said:

I agree.

 

But the stealth especially is quite laughable. The guards literally stare at the wall in Chapter 5.

I prefer this to Gta Online's stealth, where if an enemy so much as hears a pin drop from a mile off, they alert all the others instantly, as if they communicate amongst each other telepathically. Stealth has never been one of Rockstar's strengths, so should you really be surprised? What does annoy me however is that all the requirements to get a gold for each mission is kept hidden from you, just like it was in Gta 5. Meaning in most missions you will have to do them over to get gold as you have no way of knowing until after you did it the first time. Its Rockstar's way of making you repeat missions, which I find to be ridiculous.

Edited by Ghoffman9
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Dr.Rosenthal

About the NPC dialogue; I’ve been mostly impressed by RDR2 in this regard. Even though the interactive options might be few (most often they’re not), I can still exchange a few phrases with any NPC and it seems natural. The way R* has solved this is genius in my opinion.

 

But, one thing (since we’re talking about repetitive lines of dialogue); the shopkeepers come to mind. Since being in the shop entails a lot of ”Pick/View/Go back/Next Page/View/Go back” etc etc, it does become repetitive to listen to the shopkeepers lines as they seem queued by every push of a button. That struck me the other day while visiting the gunshop and modding/cleaning my guns, and I felt like ”Why can’t this dude just keep his mouth shut while I’m browsing the catalogue/making changes to my guns and not repeat himself every time I press a button?”

 

A minor thing. But since R* has done so much in this game to make characters feel alive and believable, I feel that such a little thing can be blown out of proportion and break immersion, while it could easily be fixed by just making them shut up for a little bit.

NPC’s repeating the exact same lines over and over is a huge immersion-breaker. Sometimes, maybe it can’t be avoided, but sometimes it can be.

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Jeemy
1 minute ago, Dr.Rosenthal said:

NPC’s repeating the exact same lines over and over is a huge immersion-breaker.

This, 100 times. I've never understood it. All the hours of playtesting and all the work that goes into these properties, and this happens in every game.

 

NPCS just repeat their establishing lines over and over again; just a longer delay would sort it.

 

RDR2 is guilty of "get on your horse" "why aren't you on the horse yet" "are you going to get on your horse" stuff - they make 3 different lines but then fire them out in seconds when they know fine well you've got 40-50 minutes of looting to do.

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Marcinguy
43 minutes ago, Jeemy said:

 

 

RDR2 is guilty of "get on your horse" "why aren't you on the horse yet" "are you going to get on your horse" stuff - they make 3 different lines but then fire them out in seconds when they know fine well you've got 40-50 minutes of looting to do.

Yeah, this one thing is definitely something that has irked me the most when it comes to the things that are off in this game. When you're just getting something from you're horse and the guys sitting every 4 seconds like "Hey, aren't you going to go do the thing I need you to do?" Good Lord, I'm just trying to take a sec to get my gun man, chill!

 

It's not that big of a deal but you would have thought someone had mentioned this during playtesting or something and they could have toned it down. Seriously, all these guys are a bunch of impatient and unappreciative pricks considering you're basically doing them a bunch of huge favors.

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The1raven
21 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

Almost every mission in this game seems to be a plan that was supposed to go one way and ends up devolving into a shootout

This was my problem.  It was just way too predictable.  The only time they managed to surprise me was was the Trelawny (sp?)  The English guy's stagecoach robbery.  Smooth, quiet, clean getaway and a pretty good take.  

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The1raven
On 11/12/2018 at 12:46 PM, Nutduster said:

 

Which is kind of the point of the story, right?  Just one "best laid plan" after another coming to ruin.  These guys are fooling themselves - they aren't master criminals, they're a ragtag group comprised of one quarter psychos, half idiots and 100% bad decision-makers. 

 

I'm only halfway into chapter 3 but so far I have no complaints.  The missions are interesting and keep you on your toes - there's almost always at least one twist to them, and they integrate the writing in clever ways, dropping in little plot details or character moments here and there during missions that are otherwise about something else completely.  Lack of a true stealth mission does not bother me (that stuff is not really what westerns are about anyway).

On the one hand, yes, that is kind of what the story is all about.

 

On the other hand, it's exactly why I didn't find them interesting and they didn't keep me on my toes.  I KNEW what was going to happen.  The only true "twist" for me me was when one mission went smoothly.  One.

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feckyerlife
18 hours ago, SAS_Intruder said:

I did like the story for the most part but missions did feel lame. Not all of them of course but there was surprisingly large number of missions who didn't really lead nowhere or they were abruptly interupted by some cut scene and that would be all. Good example is riverboat heist ending in gang jumping in water few miles from the coast while fully dressed and carrying money.  I guess riverboat couldn't catch them lol. 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

On top of that, Epilogue part with John is nod to all fans of RDR1 and at the end, rarely anyone would give bad rating for the story, including me. But without tragic part, I have feeling that missions were not very well created and we didn't get to know  in depth many other interesting characters. 

 

If you never been on a river boat, you wouldn't know, but they are super slow, like a turtle on land type of slow.

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The1raven

The more I think about it, the more I agree that the mission system is broken.  Not by R* estimation, I'm sure.

 

But I find that games which allow players to be creative and complete missions in different ways are not only more satisfying, but are more replayable (because then you can play a different way) These (in rdr2) are all just scripted events, and to get "gold", one has to follow the script to the letter.

 

As an example.  My first optional bounty.  I found the target.  Snuck up.  Produced my lasso.  And could not even aim it at the target.  I had to go up and talk.  Which sets off the Hollywood backing up to the cliff, falling off and then having to chase him down the river, which was exactly the kind of BS I was trying to avoid.  It's like R* needs me to be dumber than I am.  I prefer to be challenged even when I AM smart.

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Nutduster
30 minutes ago, The1raven said:

The more I think about it, the more I agree that the mission system is broken.  Not by R* estimation, I'm sure.

 

But I find that games which allow players to be creative and complete missions in different ways are not only more satisfying, but are more replayable (because then you can play a different way) These (in rdr2) are all just scripted events, and to get "gold", one has to follow the script to the letter.

 

As an example.  My first optional bounty.  I found the target.  Snuck up.  Produced my lasso.  And could not even aim it at the target.  I had to go up and talk.  Which sets off the Hollywood backing up to the cliff, falling off and then having to chase him down the river, which was exactly the kind of BS I was trying to avoid.  It's like R* needs me to be dumber than I am.  I prefer to be challenged even when I AM smart.

 

Buuuut... lassoing a guy and throwing him on your horse is not really a mission.  It's just a thing you can do literally any time you want in free roam.  Chasing a guy down a river and pulling him out with your lasso is the whole reason that mission exists, to get you to do something that you normally won't see much or at all.

 

I guess I just don't get these kinds of complaints.  The game's systems and NPC interactions are rich enough that you can get into all kinds of stuff whenever you want and play it in whatever way you like, whether that's a duel, a shootout, lassoing someone and hogtying them, dragging them behind your horse, all of that.  If you want a challenge with a multiple of possible approaches, go try to rob a moving train or hold up a store in St Denis - the game is loaded with opportunities to "make your own mission."  I do more of that stuff than actually playing missions, to be honest. But when I do play missions I am happy to just have a more hand-crafted experience.  Those are one-offs, I probably won't lasso a guy floating downriver for the entire rest of the game; why not enjoy doing it once?

 

Also, that particular mission - not getting into spoilers much but Arthur talks to him to establish his identity before taking him in.  YOU know it's the guy but Arthur doesn't. 

Edited by Nutduster
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The1raven
15 minutes ago, Nutduster said:

 

Buuuut... lassoing a guy and throwing him on your horse is not really a mission.  It's just a thing you can do literally any time you want in free roam.  Chasing a guy down a river and pulling him out with your lasso is the whole reason that mission exists, to get you to do something that you normally won't see much or at all.

 

 

Also, that particular mission - not getting into spoilers much but Arthur talks to him to establish his identity before taking him in.  YOU know it's the guy but Arthur doesn't. 

Sure, I can lasso a guy and put him on my horse any time I want. But not for a bounty.  THAT'S the mission.

 

I'm not saying your wrong for enjoying being told how to do a mission.  I'm just saying I don't.  No sense in replaying it for me, because I have no option to do it differently.  No funny/INTERESTING stories from other players about how THEIR mission went, because I already know.  According to script.

 

In a game like say....Dark souls, there are as many stories as there are players.  There's no script.  Just, "how did YOU do it?"  Just an example.  I don't want RDR to be DS. 

 

I do enjoy the non scripted stuff.  In fact, if that stuff wasn't there I would have stopped playing and written off my $ as poorly spent.

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Flannelmagic1
1 hour ago, The1raven said:

The more I think about it, the more I agree that the mission system is broken.  Not by R* estimation, I'm sure.

 

But I find that games which allow players to be creative and complete missions in different ways are not only more satisfying, but are more replayable (because then you can play a different way) These (in rdr2) are all just scripted events, and to get "gold", one has to follow the script to the letter.

 

As an example.  My first optional bounty.  I found the target.  Snuck up.  Produced my lasso.  And could not even aim it at the target.  I had to go up and talk.  Which sets off the Hollywood backing up to the cliff, falling off and then having to chase him down the river, which was exactly the kind of BS I was trying to avoid.  It's like R* needs me to be dumber than I am.  I prefer to be challenged even when I AM smart.

I agree, The missions are so on rails it is actually pathetic. Thank god free roam is awesome though, but the missions in general have been a massive disappointment to me, not many of them have been fun at all. They haven't been very interesting, but the main reason they have been more of a chore than fun is due to how slow everything is in them and how scripted they feel. I would honestly rather have every mission in the game to be a cutscene at this point, because they aren't fun to play, and you barely get to play them anyway. 

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Journey_95
1 hour ago, The1raven said:

Sure, I can lasso a guy and put him on my horse any time I want. But not for a bounty.  THAT'S the mission.

 

I'm not saying your wrong for enjoying being told how to do a mission.  I'm just saying I don't.  No sense in replaying it for me, because I have no option to do it differently.  No funny/INTERESTING stories from other players about how THEIR mission went, because I already know.  According to script.

 

In a game like say....Dark souls, there are as many stories as there are players.  There's no script.  Just, "how did YOU do it?"  Just an example.  I don't want RDR to be DS. 

 

I do enjoy the non scripted stuff.  In fact, if that stuff wasn't there I would have stopped playing and written off my $ as poorly spent.

That's the whole appeal of games like this though, I don't see anyone whining about how God of War always had the same missions..these more narrative driven games always have clearly crafted missions (unless they are RPG's then I guess there might be some choices). The appeal to replay them is just like you rewatch a movie or tv show, that's it.


It's better than Ubisoft's "choose your own style" where every mission feels the same and generic because they don't put much effort into the missions and just leave it all up to the player. Games like DS are completely different, literally no real story whatsoever, no cutscenes etc. definitely don't want Rockstar games to be anything like it

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jje1000

I agree in some ways- sometimes there were moments in the missions where I wish the player had some agency to act a little differently- maybe not 100% non-linear like Hitman or freeform like Far Cry, but with slight mission branches that allowed players to experiment with different approaches to solving a problem.

I found that too many of the later missions sort of ended with a horseback chase and shooting, whereas I liked the mission with Rains Fall where you had to retrieve the sacred item- at least it offered the opportunity for stealth, and gave a different reward for trying to do so.

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Mach1bud

Honestly mission design doesn't seem any different in RDR2 as it was in any of Rockstar's other open world games. For me that's a good thing, I like the missions to tell a story, and freeroam for whatever else. Never really had much choice in the way missions go in Rockstar games, which is fine by me.

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jje1000
18 minutes ago, Mach1bud said:

Honestly mission design doesn't seem any different in RDR2 as it was in any of Rockstar's other open world games. For me that's a good thing, I like the missions to tell a story, and freeroam for whatever else. Never really had much choice in the way missions go in Rockstar games, which is fine by me.

It's definitely a tough choice, since RDR2 excels at blending cutscenes and gameplay together to maximize the storytelling- this sometimes means though that alternate approaches to gameplay are off-limits, which limits mission playability. This also means that mission awards are almost always dictated by the speed at which the player can finish the tasks, or smaller variables like the number of headshots.

 

For instance,

Spoiler

when Arthur escapes from the O'Driscoll camp,

the game specifically instructs the player to escape by horse. You get treated to a great cutscene, but it makes me wonder if there would be other ways that allowed the player to have more agency. Same with the last oil fields mission- I wonder if there could have been an opportunity to create a mini-sandbox rather than essentially a corridor shooter.

 

Whatever it is, these things are largely set in stone and won't change- I'm personally looking for improvements in the free-roam part of the game, and possibly smaller fixes (i.e. weapon loadouts) which might offer the player some minor agency in approaching the missions.

 

Edited by jje1000

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The1raven
21 hours ago, Journey_95 said:

That's the whole appeal of games like this though, I don't see anyone whining about how God of War always had the same missions..these more narrative driven games always have clearly crafted missions (unless they are RPG's then I guess there might be some choices). The appeal to replay them is just like you rewatch a movie or tv show, that's it.


It's better than Ubisoft's "choose your own style" where every mission feels the same and generic because they don't put much effort into the missions and just leave it all up to the player. Games like DS are completely different, literally no real story whatsoever, no cutscenes etc. definitely don't want Rockstar games to be anything like it

Well, true.  R* games are very story driven (and they're very good storytellers I must admit). I feel like we usually have had at least one other choice.  Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

 

Maybe it's just that a I literally cannot stand Dutch, and the idea of hearing his "Silver tongue" BS again makes me want to vomit.  I was having trouble rooting for anyone who would follow that guy instead of either leaving or, better yet, shooting him in his smug face.

 

Funny, though, that you mention Ubisoft, because part of the problem I was having was that a lot of this game was reminding me of AC Origins which drove me away from the franchise.  Not even interested in the new one.  I mean how can you say they didn't feel the same and generic?  Start mission - something goes wrong - massive shootout with outrageously large numbers of enemies - make a run for it while still fighting outrageously large numbers of enemies coming from every direction lIke 90% of the time. 

 

And to top it off, when they want something to be difficult, they just go ahead and take either your skills or your weapons or both instead of thinking of a way to challenge us WITH the tools THEY put in the game.  This part I would not mind if they learned a lesson from DS.

 

Definitely it's not as bad as Origins, but they crept in that direction.

 

Never played GoW, but I hear it's really good and Genuinely difficult.  Maybe I'll get a Playstation so I can find out.  Plus I'd like to try Bloodborne.

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